Trinity

[saginon]

I just Googled "Beyond Today" ministries -- also Wikipedia -- World Wide Church of God == Armstrongism. Non-Biblical. that explains a lot.

So many Christians like to talk bad about others in the faith. They are as biblical as you or anyone else in this. They are an offshoot of WWCG. Herbert W. Armstrong is one of the few men I know who admitted making a mistake.

I'm not a UCG member. I'm a member on their site just like I am here so I can post. I just post on their Beyond Today pages doing my best to debunk many of their end-time beliefs. I go to a Trinitarian Church. I do agree with their rejection of the Trinity. So wrong - that doesn't explain a lot. I'm non trinitarian because the doctrine of trinity is incredibly incoherent and contradictory and nothing else.

 

[Sue D.]

@saginon -- your post said you're a member of the Beyond Today Community. People generally join a community because they agree with what That community is doing.

So -- Why Go to a trinitarian church if you don't agree with them.

Just because the trinity / Godhead is hard to understand does NOT render it Wrong. Apparently it's 'incredibly incoherent / contradictory" to You. But that does Not mean it's wrong.

 

[saginon]

@saginon -- your post said you're a member of the Beyond Today Community. People generally join a community because they agree with what That community is doing.

So -- Why Go to a trinitarian church if you don't agree with them.

Just because the trinity / Godhead is hard to understand does NOT render it Wrong. Apparently it's 'incredibly incoherent / contradictory" to You. But that does Not mean it's wrong.

Not true! I joined here and I don't agree with plenty of things here. I joined there for the same reason, simply because you have to join in oder to post.

I go to a Trinitarian Church because I agree with most of their doctrine, and I'm good friends with the Music minister. I'll never go to a Kingdom Hall, and the UCC doesn't want me. I've already been told I wouldn't be a good fit.

It's not wrong because it's hard to understand, it's wrong because it makes no sense, it goes against the very words of Jesus, and it destroys the efficacy of the cross. I understand the doctrine quite well, probably better than most trinitarians, and that's another reason why I reject it.

 

[saginon]

Not true! I joined here and I don't agree with plenty of things here. I joined there for the same reason, simply because you have to join in oder to post.

I go to a Trinitarian Church because I agree with most of their doctrine, and I'm good friends with the Music minister.

It's not wrong because it's hard to understand, it's wrong because it makes no sense, it goes against the very words of Jesus, and it destroys the efficacy of the cross. I understand the doctrine quite well, probably better than most trinitarians, and that's another reason why I reject it.

I made a mistake. I said, "I'll never go to a Kingdom Hall, and the UCC doesn't want me. I've already been told I wouldn't be a good fit." I meant to say UCG - United Church of God.

 

[Sue D.]

@saginon -- it's because Of the trinity / Godhead / that we Have the cross.

You just said that you agree with most of the doctrine taught by a trinitarian church. On Forum here you don't seem to agree with their doctrine. So -- what part of their / trinitarian doctrine Do you agree with.

 

[B-A-C]

WORD -
Greek Word: λόγος
Transliteration: logos - Interlinear = "saying word." saying word
Root: from <G3004>

This is really a hollow argument. If the Bible said a bag of popcorn was God. It would still be God.

 

[saginon]

@saginon -- it's because Of the trinity / Godhead / that we Have the cross.

You just said that you agree with most of the doctrine taught by a trinitarian church. On Forum here you don't seem to agree with their doctrine. So -- what part of their / trinitarian doctrine Do you agree with.

I think you need to start reading my replies better and get them right. Why do you say I don't agree with the doctrine here? Because I reject the trinity? I didn't say I agree with trinitarian doctrine! I said I go to a trinitarian Church and agree with most of their doctrine. Just like here, I agree with the core doctrines of the church other than Trinity, and maybe slight variations here and there on other issues. I disagree will almost - ALL - end-time teachings like globalism/NWO, pre-trib, temple rebuilding, the EU and RRE, the beast, Rome, Babylon the Great, etc., etc.

THE TRINITY HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CROSS.

 

[saginon]

This is really a hollow argument. If the Bible said a bag of popcorn was God. It would still be God.

Is that all you've got?

 

[Sue D.]

I think you need to start reading my replies better and get them right. Why do you say I don't agree with the doctrine here? Because I reject the trinity? I didn't say I agree with trinitarian doctrine! I said I go to a trinitarian Church and agree with most of their doctrine. Just like here, I agree with the core doctrines of the church other than Trinity, and maybe slight variations here and there on other issues. I disagree will almost - ALL - end-time teachings like globalism/NWO, pre-trib, temple rebuilding, the EU and RRE, the beast, Rome, Babylon the Great, etc., etc.

THE TRINITY HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CROSS.

The trinity makes the cross possible.

The trinity Is a core doctrine --- so you're really disagreeing with Most teachings.

Maybe you should reconsider that which you Do believe. It's God's Word

 

[saginon]

The trinity makes the cross possible.

The trinity Is a core doctrine --- so you're really disagreeing with Most teachings.

Maybe you should reconsider that which you Do believe. It's God's Word

The Trinity does not make the cross possible, there was no such thing as a Trinity until the 4th century. The trinity destroys the human factor of Christ sacrifice. Saying He's God means he couldn't have sinned anyway making Jesus a fraud and the cross a hoax.

The Trinity doctrine is only ONE core doctrine of the Christian faith. You're just doing your typical - trying to make me look bad because I reject the Catholic, man made doctrine of the Trinity. God the Father made the cross possible by sending Jesus Christ to die for our sins. AND NOTHING ELSE! No Trinity is necessary.

 

[Sue D.]

@saginon -- The trinity has Always been in the Bible -- first mention of it being in Genesis 1:26 "Then God said "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea......"

"That I'm just doing my typical -- trying to make me look bad because......" sorry , but you're doing that all by yourself.

Well -- God (the Father) Did send Jesus Christ (son of God) to die for our sins and when a person accepts Jesus Christ As their personal Savior, the Holy Spirit Does come to indwell the person (3rd part of the trinity) and That = tri-unity. The Godhead.

And the virgin birth of Jesus Christ is another core doctrine -- Mary being the mother of Jesus and the Holy Spirit coming upon her in order for her To conceive as a virgin. That is what makes Jesus human And deity while He was here on earth. And That is why He was able to die for our sins and rise again bodily.

 

[B-A-C]

Jesus was born of a virgin. No "mere man" ever was. -- Jesus is God. ( Isa 7:14; )
Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. No other being ever was, period. -- Jesus is God.
Jesus is called Immanuel. -- Jesus is God.
Matt 1:23; "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US."
God with us. Not "like" God, not "kinda" God, not "half-way" God, not "used to be" God.... but "God" with is. -- Jesus is God.
Tit 2:13; looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, -- Jesus is God, it plainly says so in the Bible.
2 Pet 1:1; Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: -- Jesus is God, it plainly says so in the Bible.
Heb 1:8; But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. -- the Son is God, Jesus is God.
John 1:1; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. -- Jesus is the Word, the Word was God, Jesus is God.
John 1:14; And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. -- the Word (God) became flesh and lived among us. Jesus is God.
John 10:30; "I and the Father are one." -- Jesus is God.
God is "I am" Exod 3:14; .. Jesus is "I am" John 8:58; -- Jesus is God.
God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:1; Mark 13:19; .. Jesus created the heavens and the earth. Col 1:16; John 1:3; -- Jesus is God.
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega (first and last) Rev 1:8; Rev 22:13; God is the Alpha and Omega. Rev 21:6; -- Jesus is God.
Mark 2:7; "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?" -- Only God forgives sin. Jesus is God.
Psa 49:7; No man can by any means redeem his brother Or give to God a ransom for him— .. No mere man can redeem you. Only God can.
Psa 49:15; But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah. -- Jesus is God. Gal 4:5; Tit 2:14;
Col 2:9; For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, -- Jesus is God.
Php 2:6; who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be held onto. -- Jesus is God.
Isa 9:6; For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. -- Jesus is God.

Man is made lower than the angels. But Jesus was made lower than the angels "for a little while".
Heb 2:7; "YOU HAVE MADE HIM FOR A LITTLE WHILE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS; YOU HAVE CROWNED HIM WITH GLORY AND HONOR, AND HAVE APPOINTED HIM OVER THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
Heb 2:9; But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. -- Jesus is God.

Jesus became the "Son of Man" (even though He was also the Son of God).

Rom 5:12; Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
Rom 5:13; for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14; Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Rom 5:15; But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
Rom 5:16; The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Rom 5:17; For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18; So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom 5:19; For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

It was one man's sin that gave Satan the authority over man and the earth. It had to be a man that defeated Satan. Jesus didn't use His "God powers" to defeat Satan.
He defeated him as a man.
When Satan tempted Jesus, he didn't tempt Jesus to do human sins, he tried to get Him to do God things. Turn these stones to bread, throw yourself off the temple so the angels will catch you.
Satan wanted Jesus "to cheat" and use His "God power" to defeat him. But Jesus never did. God can't be tempted but Jesus was. Not the God part of Jesus, the man part of Jesus.

...there is more, but I'm out of time tonight.

 

[B-A-C]

The trinity has Always been in the Bible

There are manuscripts that mention the god-head and trinity and the deity of Jesus, centuries before the RCC existed.
What's interesting, it is the Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons who deny the deity of Jesus now.

 

[newname]

There are manuscripts that mention the god-head and trinity and the deity of Jesus, centuries before the RCC existed.
What's interesting, it is the Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons who deny the deity of Jesus now.

That is so dangerous. Don't believe in the wrong Jesus. He isn't just an angel. There is no Saviour/Messiah but YHWH. It's so clear from the O.T. The Angel of the Lord is called YHWH and wrestled with Jacob. It even says he wrestled with a man and at the same time that he wrestled with God.
Judaists say it has to be just a man. Then they say I do idolatry by worshipping Jesus. I said no it's the other way around. God got mad when they wanted a king and said they rejected Him. That is idolatry of a man above God to have a man (or angel) as your saviour or king. Only He is King.
And satan uses it. He is gonna play the saviour of the world as an angel/man.

You have all these Names for God. YHWH Jireh: God is my Provider.
Yeshua means: YHWH is salvation.

 

[saginon]

@saginon -- The trinity has Always been in the Bible -- first mention of it being in Genesis 1:26 "Then God said "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea......"

"That I'm just doing my typical -- trying to make me look bad because......" sorry , but you're doing that all by yourself.

Well -- God (the Father) Did send Jesus Christ (son of God) to die for our sins and when a person accepts Jesus Christ As their personal Savior, the Holy Spirit Does come to indwell the person (3rd part of the trinity) and That = tri-unity. The Godhead.

And the virgin birth of Jesus Christ is another core doctrine -- Mary being the mother of Jesus and the Holy Spirit coming upon her in order for her To conceive as a virgin. That is what makes Jesus human And deity while He was here on earth. And That is why He was able to die for our sins and rise again bodily.

No hermeneutic, no Truth. Why is it that logic seems to be thrown right out when it comes to Trinity?

Since when does the word 'us' even hint there's a co-equal triune God? Elohim and Adonim are the Hebrew words for God and they occur in the plural. The Jews were monotheistic, and they were thoroughly familiar with the dialect of their own language. They have never understood Genesis 1:26 and the use of the plural to indicate a plurality of persons within the one God.

SOME Trinitarians, (some know better) claim Genesis 1:26 proves a Trinity.

The most likely and logical reason God said, "let us" is because He was speaking to His angels in the creation process. Why else did He create them? I say it's because angels were instrumentally used in the creation process. They are also involved even today keeping all things in the universe in order and in time. He didn't make angels just for the fun of it. They are His workers.

There are dozens of examples in Hebrew where words are in the plural and you wouldn't suspect it, even when ONE thing is implied. To say 'let us' implies a co-equal trinity is absurd.

If the holy spirit is a 'third person' of this Trinity, why is it the holy spirit has no name? Wouldn't you think that God would have named this 'person which Trinitarians say is equal to Jesus and God? One who IS God and IS Jesus yet - Is NOT God and IS NOT Jesus? You can't see the absurdity in that kind of thinking? And why...

Do we find God the Father and Jesus around the Throne of God, but this 'third person' of this Trinity is NOT there?

Godhead - is a word that's a Trinitarian invention. The word is divinity or deity and that word is also used to describe pagan gods.

IF Trinity was true, Jesus had plenty of opportunities to disclose himself as being equal to God or disclose a 'Trinity'. In John 7:28-29, Jesus had the chance but instead said,

"You both know Me, and you know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know. {29} "But I know Him, for I am from Him, and He sent Me."

 

[Sue D.]

@saginon -- ya know something -- that which 'you think' or which I think -- if it doesn't agree with Scripture -- 'we' are in error.

The trinity Isn't 'logical' but it IS. Your attitude towards God's Word / Scripture is dangerously wrong.

In the Old Testament a variety of pagan gods are named. And God told the people -- if you're going to take time to worship a god -- worship the Real God -- Me. Worship the God / Me/ who created You and this world.

And in the passage you included in John 7 is confirming what you've already been hearing and denying. "He who sent Me is true .... I know HIm for I am from Him, and He sent Me." That is Jesus Christ talking about God the Father -- two parts of the Godhead / trinity. the 3rd part being the Holy Spirit. And His name IS Holy Spirit. It's either you or King J. who seems to think the Holy Spirit needs a 'name'

 

[B-A-C]

The most likely and logical reason God said, "let us" is because He was speaking to His angels in the creation process.

Man is not created in the image of angels.
Heb 2:7; "YOU HAVE MADE HIM FOR A LITTLE WHILE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS; YOU HAVE CROWNED HIM WITH GLORY AND HONOR, AND HAVE APPOINTED HIM OVER THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
Heb 2:9; But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

You think we look like angels?

Ezek 10:12; Their whole body, their backs, their hands, their wings and the wheels were full of eyes all around, the wheels belonging to all four of them.
Ezek 10:13; The wheels were called in my hearing, the whirling wheels.
Ezek 10:14; And each one had four faces. The first face was the face of a cherub, the second face was the face of a man, the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.
Ezek 10:15; Then the cherubim rose up. They are the living beings that I saw by the river Chebar.

Isa 6:2; Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.

 

[B-A-C]

Angels are created beings. (Just like you and me). Jesus created the angels. He existed before they did, He always existed. He is the "alpha" (the beginning)
nothing exists before the beginning. Nothing existed before He did.

John 1:3; All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Rev 1:8; "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

If you have a "red-letter" Bible. You will see this is in red colored text. What does red-colored text mean? It means it is Jesus speaking.
It is Jesus speaking in this verse. Jesus is called "the Lord God" in this verse.

In case you think this is a mistake. In case you think it is the Father speaking here... the previous verse makes it clear who it is talking about here.

Rev 1:7; BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

.-.-.-.-.-.-
Rev 22:13; "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Rev 21:6; Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
Rev 21:7; "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

 

[saginon]

@saginon -- ya know something -- that which 'you think' or which I think -- if it doesn't agree with Scripture -- 'we' are in error.

The trinity Isn't 'logical' but it IS. Your attitude towards God's Word / Scripture is dangerously wrong.

In the Old Testament a variety of pagan gods are named. And God told the people -- if you're going to take time to worship a god -- worship the Real God -- Me. Worship the God / Me/ who created You and this world.

And in the passage you included in John 7 is confirming what you've already been hearing and denying. "He who sent Me is true .... I know HIm for I am from Him, and He sent Me." That is Jesus Christ talking about God the Father -- two parts of the Godhead / trinity. the 3rd part being the Holy Spirit. And His name IS Holy Spirit. It's either you or King J. who seems to think the Holy Spirit needs a 'name'

My attitude toward scripture isn't dangerously wrong, yours is because you condemn non-trinitarians. Jesus said,

"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:"

I think in accord of, and result of, my research/studies. In them I know Trinity is false. I know Trinity goes against Jesus' own words. I know he often disclosed his subordination to the Father. I know Trinity was devised by Catholic's over a period of 100 years solely to unite the empire. I also know the main reasons why Trinitarians believe it even though there's no understanding it!

1. Indoctrination.
2. They've been taught they're not Christian if they reject it.
3. They're scared to admit they don't believe it.

The trinity is completely illogical. In one breath they say, "Jesus is God, God is Jesus, Jesus is the holy spirit, The holy spirit is Jesus, the holy spirit is God." Then in the very next breath they say, "Jesus is not God, God is not Jesus, Jesus is not the holy spirit, The holy spirit is not Jesus, the holy spirit is not God."

Completely illogical and incoherent AND absolutely contradictory and FALSE.

I denied NOTHING in John 7. You are ADDING your Trinitarian beliefs to John 7. Jesus had multiple opportunities to disclose a Trinity. He never did because there's no such thing.

I worship the real God. You worship a god made up of multiple beings and personalities devised by the murderous Catholic Bishop Atanasius.

The holy spirit does need a name IF it is in fact a person you folks expect me to believe in to be saved! You condemn people for NOT believing in a trinity that supposedly has a 'third person' in it who has no name? You can't see the absurdity and falsity in that?

 

[saginon]

Man is not created in the image of angels.
Heb 2:7; "YOU HAVE MADE HIM FOR A LITTLE WHILE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS; YOU HAVE CROWNED HIM WITH GLORY AND HONOR, AND HAVE APPOINTED HIM OVER THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
Heb 2:9; But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

You think we look like angels?

Ezek 10:12; Their whole body, their backs, their hands, their wings and the wheels were full of eyes all around, the wheels belonging to all four of them.
Ezek 10:13; The wheels were called in my hearing, the whirling wheels.
Ezek 10:14; And each one had four faces. The first face was the face of a cherub, the second face was the face of a man, the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.
Ezek 10:15; Then the cherubim rose up. They are the living beings that I saw by the river Chebar.

Isa 6:2; Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.

I did not say man was created in the image of angels, and I did not say we look like angels.

You are very much like Sue. You misquote and misconstrue what I say. If your just going to misrepresent what I say, I know the motivation, and I don't want to deal with phony con-artist.