From reading Matthew 12:1-7, I do not see how it was obvious to them in following the Messiah's lead to profane the sabbath that particular day.
Healing on the sabbath? Is that not God working on the sabbath? Maybe it is not about Jesus would never sin on the sabbath but about the truth that He is Lord of the sabbath and not the other way around.
Stating that is hardly proof that His disciples did it, let alone all of them, since Judas Iscariot was never a believer in the first place, and yet he was given the same power of the Holy Ghost as the rest of His disciples in Matthew 10th chapter.
I point out that God requires those who keep the sabbath to provide for their meals prior to sabbath so no work is involved on the sabbath. So I am not seeing this event in Matthew 12:1-7 as imitation of Torah-obedience.
Actually, Jesus has been declaring in that Sermon on the Mount how things will change from the old way of doing things to the new; as in the difference between the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. One example of seeing that is in Matthew 5:33-37 KJV Jesus spoke of how people of old times performed their oath and then expounded on denouncing that old way by saying for believers not to swear at all which is a common practice to adding to that oath in declaring the seriousness of the one making the oath that he will do it as in finish it; because in Matthew 5:36 KJV we cannot make one hair white or black; meaning we cannot do God's work in us or to look to ourselves by the deed of the law in making us be good or to do good.
If you had any doubts regarding what the Sermon on the Mount was really all about; Jesus gave a simple answer here to a question that had nothing to do with being Torah-obeidence.
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
That, brother, is what Jesus was saying in the Sermon on the Mount. Believe in Him as your Saviour that you are saved for simply believing in Him : and then believe in Him as your Good Shepherd that He will help you to follow Him in laying aside every weight & sin in running that race for the high prize of our calling in being received by Him as a vessel unto honor in His House at the pre great trib rapture event which is to attend the Supper in His honor and to His glory.
Again, I do not see any model of hierarchical understanding of the Torah when Jesus was citing 2 incidents in the O.T. where He admitted that they had profaned the sabbath day BUT because they were in the Temple, was why they were guiltless. Jesus did not say that they did NOT profaned the sabbath BUT did confirmed that they DID profaned the sabbath along with WHY & HOW they were guiltless because they were in the Temple.
That goes to point for His defense towards His disciples. That means even if the Pharisees's accusations were true and that His disciples were PROFANING the sabbath day, they were guiltless because Jesus was with them.
If 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 KJV cites our bodies as the temples of the Holy Spirit; and 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 KJV cites the destruction of that temple of the Holy Spirit for defiling that said temple, meaning our bodies incurs physical death, then I would say that the reference is more than just figuratively but literally as to where His Presence dwells now as opposed to how He used to dwell in the Old Covenant as in at the Temple in Jerusalem. It is because of the New Covenant, believers will know the real Holy Spirit by Him dwelling in us as promised at our salvation ( John 14:16-17 KJV ) is why and how believers can discern that spirit outside of us in the worship place as NOT the Holy Spirit, but the spirit of the antichrist; 1 John 4:3-4 KJV .
Don't accept every spoon fed verse without reading it in context, brother. That is how cults are formed by taking verses out of context to enforce their erroneous beliefs.
Acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
Please read that in context and see how Gentiles were not to observe the Torah when this question in verses 20-21 was brought to Paul's attention.
Why did Paul did it as under the law?
1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
So the time that Paul spent under that vow, it was for missionary outreach to those Jews that were under that same vow. Paul understood the law's requirement to finish the vow and not have it undone.
Nowadays, believers make open ended vows; boastful vows of love and devotion and commitment not only to each other but to the Lord, but they can never finish the vows. Since love is not boastful and making boasts of what you will do tomorrow is of evil James 4:13-17 KJV since God cannot help you finish your vows in according to His words in Numbers 30:2 KJV and Ecclesiastes 5:4-6 KJV , then we need His forgiveness for making foolish vows that we cannot finish but to rest in His New Covenant to us that He will finish His work in us ( Philippians 1:6 KJV ) as well as helping us to do good since love is a fruit of the Spirit as He shall amply supply us with the love we need thru the Holy Spirit in us for abiding in Him; Philippians 1:11 KJV That means we ask for forgiveness for trying to do His work in us by the deeds of the law and rest in Him that He will finish His work in us by faith in Jesus Christ as the author & finisher of our faith and that race.
You do recite your belief as heavy on the Torah, but I do not believe you are reading His words in the Sermon on the Mount with His wisdom because of what someone else had taught you.
If believers were Torah obedient, then every believer would be circumcised and yet you will have a problem when reading the Book of Galatians in its entirety.
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. 7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Try reading the scripture asking Jesus Christ for help in seeing the truth in His words for why "the Torah" has never been cited in any epistles of Paul to the churches and yet we can read Paul's words in speaking against certain things of the Torah from doing so.
Hello!
Thank you for the response...I do appreciate your thoughtful comments.
You wrote: "From reading Matthew 12:1-7, I do not see how it was obvious to them in following the Messiah's lead to profane the sabbath that particular day."
My response: Jesus confirmed that when Sabbath instructions are not strictly followed, then the Sabbath is technically being profaned (Gr. "
βεβηλόω", Mt. 12:5). So, even though harvesting food may (in general) be considered to be forbidden work on the Sabbath, Jesus maintained that his disciples were innocent (Mt. 12:7).
Thus, Jesus was leading his disciples to discern that Torah instructions can be disobeyed, IF a higher Torah principle overrides (and justifies) that disobedience, in which case their is no guilt in the disobedience, because a higher Torah principle was obeyed all along.
That's the point of Jesus' example in Mt. 12:3-4. Eating food to insure ongoing LIFE is a HIGHER Torah principle than the general regulations regarding priestly food restrictions.
Food sustains LIFE in Mt. 12:3-4; and LIFE is the overriding motivation of Torah as confirmed in Dt. 30:19; 32:47. That's why it's ok for David to use the Torah principle of LIFE to override the Torah instructions regarding priestly food restrictions.
That's also the point of Jesus' example in Mt. 12:5. Performing the Torah-sanctioned work of priestly duties is a HIGHER Torah principle than the general Torah prohibition against work on the Sabbath. That's why it's ok for priests to use the Torah-sanctioned requirements for priestly work to override the Torah instructions prohibiting work on the Sabbath.
And that's why it's ok for Jesus' disciples to harvest a bit of grain to sustain life for hungry people while passing through a field. Again why? Because the Torah principle of LIFE overrides the general Torah prohibition against Sabbath work.
And Jesus led his disciples into that very field (Mt. 12:1) knowing that all of these things would occur.
That's why it's true to claim that the disciples were following the Messiah's lead to profane the sabbath that particular day.
You wrote: "Healing on the sabbath? Is that not God working on the sabbath?"
My response: General Torah prohibitions against work on the Sabbath have noted Torah-sanctioned exceptions, as even Jesus points out in Mt. 12, as I just discussed above here in this post.
And in all these cases, Torah was UPHELD and OBEYED all along; that's why David and the priests and the disciples were all innocent. Torah was obeyed all along, by properly identifying the hierarchical structure of Torah principles.
Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. Jesus is the One who gives Torah to Israel (and thus to you!) Jesus is the One who affirms that general Sabbath regulations sometimes have Torah-sanctioned exceptions.
So, Jesus obviously has the authority to permit His disciples to eat grain on the Sabbath, so long as such eating is in obedience to higher Torah principles (which it is!)
Is Jesus sinning (or leading his disciples to sin) in disobedience of Torah? No! HIGHER Torah principles are OBEYED in all these cases (David; priests; disciples eating grain on Sabbath).
And, since overriding higher Torah principles were obeyed in all these cases, there is no sin or guilt. AND, Torah remains in force all the while.
You wrote: "Stating that is hardly proof that His disciples did it..."
My response: Of COURSE Jesus' disciples knew they should be walking in obedience to Torah!
Jesus COMMANDED Torah (Mt. 5:19-20; 22:37; 23:2-3,23,34) with the promise of eternal life to those who obey (Lk. 10:25-28), and with great warnings against those who disobey Torah (Mt.5 :19-20; 7:21-23; 13:41-42).
Rabbis taught Torah. Disciples of rabbis obeyed Torah (1 Jn. 2:6; Lk. 6:40). That's the culture and context of 1st-century Judaism, as confirmed likewise in Scripture.
Sure, Judas Iscariot disobeyed....but that's not proof that Jesus did not teach His disciples to obey Torah.
You wrote: "I point out that God requires those who keep the sabbath to provide for their meals prior to sabbath so no work is involved on the sabbath. So I am not seeing this event in Matthew 12:1-7 as imitation of Torah-obedience."
My response: I already showed you (above in this post) how Mt. 12 is consistent with the Torah-obedience that Jesus modeled and required.
You wrote: "Actually, Jesus has been declaring in that Sermon on the Mount how things will change from the old way of doing things to the new; as in the difference between the Old Covenant to the New Covenant."
My response: To the contrary! Jesus expect you to obey even the SMALLEST of Torah commands (and teach others to do the same) so as to attain greatness in the forthcoming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).
AND, if you disobey even the smallest of Torah commands (and teach others to do the same), then you are at risk of becoming LEAST in the forthcoming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).
AND, if you do not exhibit Torah-obedience greater than that of the Pharisees, then you will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt. 5:20).
AND, not a single letter of Torah passes away until EVERYTHING is accomplished (Mt. 5:18). And guess what? Dt. 30:1-8 is NOT yet accomplished! Thus, every letter of Torah is still in force.
Thus, the Sermon on the Mount OVERWHELMINGLY confirms the perpetuity of Torah.
Moreover, TORAH passes directly into the NEW Covenant (see "TORAH", in Jer. 31:33; cited in Heb. 8:10; 10:15-16). So let's not pretend that Torah is no longer in force.
Now, Mt. 5:33-37 does not contradict Torah! It merely confirms that you should not make vows in the name of "heaven", the "throne of God", "earth", "Jerusalem", or your "head". This is PERFECTLY consistent with Torah. After all, Torah does NOT require that anyone make vows in the name of "heaven", the "throne of God", "earth", "Jerusalem", or your "head".
Jesus confirms that it's better to let your "yes" be "yes" and your "no" be "no", rather than to operate under the evil presumption that a man's statements are trustworthy only if they have been sworn in the name of "heaven", the "throne of God", "earth", "Jerusalem", or your "head". That's why Jesus identifies this evil presumption as "evil" (Mt. 5:37). Again, this is PERFECTLY consistent with Torah.
You wrote: "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
My response: Great! BELIEVE in Jesus! And by the way, this entails that you should OBEY His commands. AND, Jesus commands Torah (Mt. 5:19-20; 22:37; 23:2-3,23,34).
Jesus never stated (or implied) that it's ok to "believe" Jesus and simultaneously IGNORE His commands to obey Torah!
You wrote: "...He will help you to follow Him in laying aside every weight & sin..."
My response: AWESOME! Please lay aside every SIN. And, Torah-disobedience is sin (Rom. 3:20; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4). Thus, we should lay aside Torah-disobedience. Thus, we should OBEY Torah. Indeed!
You wrote: "Again, I do not see any model of hierarchical understanding of the Torah when Jesus was citing 2 incidents in the O.T. where He admitted that they had profaned the sabbath day BUT because they were in the Temple, was why they were guiltless."
My response: They were not guiltless merely "because they were in the Temple".
There were guiltless because they obeyed a HIGHER Torah principle while profaning the Sabbath. This confirms that Torah conflicts must be resolved by properly identifying the correct hierarchical relationship of distinct Torah requirements.
They were guiltless because they obeyed Torah principles all along. And, those who obey Torah are not guilty of violating it!
You wrote: "Jesus did
not say that they did NOT profaned the sabbath BUT did confirmed that they DID profaned the sabbath along with WHY & HOW they were guiltless because they were in the Temple."
My response: Wrong. Jesus did not say they were guiltless merely "because they were in the temple".
You wrote: "That means even if the Pharisees's accusations were true and that His disciples were PROFANING the sabbath day, they were guiltless because Jesus was with them."
My response: You are close! The disciples were not guiltless merely "because Jesus was with them".
After all, Jesus was with Judas Iscariot, BUT Judas was an evil and rebellious sinner in many ways even while being "with" Jesus.
So, a disciple was not guiltless merely "because Jesus was with them".
Rather, it's because Jesus (who has the AUTHORITY to give proper Torah interpretations) was explaining that his disciples can profane the Sabbath so long as a higher Torah principle is being obeyed all along.
That's the point of bringing up David. That's the point of bringing up the priests. In both cases, a HIGHER Torah principle was being obeyed, and THAT is why the lower Torah principle was permitted to be disobeyed.
And, Torah principles were honored and obeyed in all three cases (David, priests, disciples eating grain).
And HOW do we know that the disciples were respecting the proper hierarchical understanding of Torah principles when eating grain on the Sabbath? Because JESUS has the authority to give us definitive Torah interpretations with full divine authority. THAT is how we know that it was ok (i.e., it was Torah-compliant) for the disciples to profane the Sabbath by picking and eating some grain on the Sabbath.
You wrote: "...then I would say that the reference is more than just figuratively but literally as to where His Presence dwells..."
My response: The term for temple (Heb. "הֵיכָל ") refers to a literal building structure! It does not merely refer to "where His Presence dwells". Thus, you are using the term "temple" incorrectly.
Does your body have literal walls and a literal ceiling and a literal altar and a literal place for sacrificing animals and literal gates? Of course not!
Sure, God LITERALLY dwells in you...but the allusion to "temple" is still a figure of speech. Why? Because your body does not have literal walls, ceiling, altars, etc!
The LITERAL temple which Jesus comes to rebuild (Zec. 6) will have LITERAL animal sacrifices in it (Eze. 40-47) when Jesus fully restores those sacrifices "as in the days of old, as in former years" (Mal. 3).
There's a difference between a LITERAL temple and a physical body!
Don't be afraid of figures of speech. They DO occur in the Bible sometimes!
You wrote: "It is because of the New Covenant, believers will know the real Holy Spirit..."
My response: And what does that very HOLY Spirit testify? That Torah should be obeyed from the heart in the New Covenant! (Heb. 10:15-16).
So it makes no sense for you to oppose the very Torah of the New Covenant in which you participate.
You wrote: "...but the spirit of the antichrist."
My response: The antichrist is bad! The antichrist is anti-Torah (2 Th. 2:3). Thus, it's BAD to oppose Torah-obedience.
Then why do you oppose Torah-obedience?
Looks like you are inadvertently advocating antichrist theology! Please stop.
Christ taught Torah (Mt. 5:19-20; 22:37; 23:2-3,23,34). You oppose Torah (apparently). Thus you (apparently) oppose Christ on this point.
That's bad. Please stop.
You wrote: "Don't accept every spoon fed verse without reading it in context, brother. That is how cults are formed by taking verses out of context to enforce their erroneous beliefs."
My response: Very true! That's why I am showing you, in as much detail as you require, why the position I've set before you is BIBLICAL.
You wrote: "Please read that in context and see how Gentiles were not to observe the Torah when this question in verses 20-21 was brought to Paul's attention."
My response: The phrase "they observe no such thing, save only" (Ac. 21:25) is not even in the Greek Critical Text! That's why it's NOT THERE in, for example, the NASB or ESV.
Let's not rely on questionable textual variants to defend your lawlessness which, as I've already shown, is profoundly unbiblical.
Moreover, Paul told GENTILES to obey God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19) which, of course, are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3).
Paul affirmed the legitimacy of judgements issued by GENTILES who obey Torah (Rom. 2:27).
Paul said GENTILES partake in the New Covenant (1 Cor. 11:25) which, of course, entails that we obey Torah (see "TORAH" in Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:16).
Moreover, the four rules (Ac. 21:25) are merely an entrance requirement for Gentiles, not an exit exam!
The four rules came from Ac. 15. And, NOTHING in Ac. 15 states that Gentiles should NOT grow in faithful obedience to Torah AFTER being saved by the grace of Jesus.
In fact, NOTHING in Ac. 15 states that the Torah-obedient Pharisees (who were believers) should stop obeying Torah.
So, nothing in Ac. 15 or Ac. 21 confirms that any believer should NOT grow in faithful obedience to Torah.
You've simply misunderstood the purpose of the four rules, and you've contradicted the MANY other Biblical considerations I've set before you which confirm that ALL disciples of Jesus should grow in faithful obedience to Torah.
You wrote: "So the time that Paul spent under that vow, it was for missionary outreach to those Jews that were under that same vow. "
My response: Wrong. Paul condoned the vow to prove that the false accusation against him was false!
WHAT was the false accusation? Answer: The false accusation was that Paul supposedly taught some Jews to disobey the Torah of Moses (Ac. 21:21).
Thus, the false accusation is false! Paul condoned a vow to PROVE that the false accusation was false.
Thus, it must be TRUE that Paul did NOT teach Jews to disobey the Torah of Moses.
And, we should imitate Paul and likewise teach believing Jews to NOT disobey Torah (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).
AND, Paul taught GENTILES to obey those same commands (as I've already shown you. For example, 1 Cor. 7:19).
Thus, Paul taught Torah to ALL disciples of Jesus.
We should imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9) and likewise teach ALL disciples of Jesus to obey Torah.
You wrote: "...love is a fruit of the Spirit..."
My response: Yes, And HOW should we love? Jesus applies Dt. 6 to YOU! (Mt. 22:37). And HOW does Dt. 6 confirm that we should express this love for God? Answer: through obedience to ALL Torah commands (Dt. 6:25). Jesus never told us to ignore the very context of the passage in Dt. 6 which He applies to you!
Again, FAITHFULESS (Gr. "pistis", Gal. 5:22-23) is another fruit of the Spirit. And "pistis" is a command from Jesus straight out of the Torah (Mt. 23:23).
Again, PEACE is another fruit of the Spirit. You want Biblical PEACE? Then love (not disobey!) Torah (Ps. 119:165).
You wrote: "That means we ask for forgiveness for trying to do His work in us by the deeds of the law..."
My response: God does GOD's work in us.
We do OUR work too!
Righteousness is something we DO (1 Jn. 2:29; 3:7), or else you are a child of the devil (1 Jn. 3:10).
You wrote: "If believers were Torah obedient, then every believer would be circumcised..."
My response: Wrong again. Torah does not require adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision. That's why Paul confirms that adult-male-Gentile-circumcision is NOT commanded by God (1 Cor. 7:19).
Rather, Torah requires INFANT circumcision (Lev. 12:3).
Paul never opposed Lev. 12:3.
Lev. 12:3 is Torah. Torah is in the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:15-16).
Lev. 12:3 is not abolished.
Nothing in Galatians opposes Lev. 12:3.
In fact, Galatians 3:11 applies Hab. 2:4 to YOU! Hab. 2:4 states we live by faithfulness (Heb. "emunah").
And what is this way of "emunah" by which Paul says we should live? TORAH! (see "emunah" in Ps. 119:30,86,138).
Paul opposes FAITHLESS Torah-obedience in Galatians.
Paul does NOT oppose FAITHFUL Torah-obedience.
That's WHY Paul says that faithful Torah-obedience IS the word of faith which he preached (Dt. 30:14 applies Rom. 10:8 to YOU!)
You wrote: "Try reading the scripture asking Jesus Christ for help..."
My response: You mean the "Jesus" who obeyed and commanded Torah, as described in the Scriptures?
John says we should walk as He walked (1 Jn. 2:6), thus we should likewise walk in obedience to Torah.
You wrote: " "the Torah" has never been cited in any epistles of Paul to the churches.."
My response: Now go back and review my responses to you here. You'll see why your claim is false.
You wrote: "we can read Paul's words in speaking against certain things of the Torah..."
My response: Nonsense! Paul NEVER opposed or contradicted Torah!
You've given ZERO evidence to support your claim.
I've given you MUCH evidence to prove Paul taught Torah.
Please review this message in detail.
We have MUCH to discuss here!
blessings...
