Universalism

[MedicBravo]

"Desires to" be does NOT equal "everyone is going to regardless".
It insults Jesus and His death. Universalism is more division and idiocy.
This "belief" also undermines all mention of Hell and Divine Judgement of which Jesus spoke more than anyone.

 

[Rhema]

IT’S GETTING UGLY BUT SOMETHING BEAUTIFUL IS COMING!

OH YES INDEED. (But having nothing to do with that book.)

Revelation is like the literary version of an Hieronymus Bosch painting. So, it would make sense you like both.

I could tell you why and how the end comes (and to some extent when), but then I'd have to shoot myself.

God bless,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

"Desires to" be does NOT equal "everyone is going to regardless".
It insults Jesus and His death. Universalism is more division and idiocy.

Indeed so.

This "belief" also undermines all mention of Hell and Divine Judgement of which Jesus spoke more than anyone.

But Jesus never spoke of the hell that you know.

God bless,
Rhema

 

[Christ4Ever]

OH YES INDEED. (But having nothing to do with that book.)

Revelation is like the literary version of an Hieronymus Bosch painting. So, it would make sense you like both.

I could tell you why and how the end comes (and to some extent when), but then I'd have to shoot myself.

God bless,
Rhema

Nah, I loved art because I grew up going to the Brooklyn Museum of Art, and Brooklyn Library in New York.
Made me appreciate history and not just America's either. They would have treasure hunts where you had to fill in the blanks on a little sheet of paper and only had clues to find the object and get the answer! Could be anywhere in the museum, which was/is rather large. Great way to spend a Saturday!

As far as God's Word; well it speaks for itself and has its own story to tell.
It's the future of a New Heaven's and a New Earth that I look forward to seeing! We have much to look forward to!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[KingJ]

And just what pray tell is your definition of definition?

See the second line after the line you quoted.

Yes I know. You're English isn't all that good.

Says the one who can't read.

 

[MedicBravo]

Indeed so.


But Jesus never spoke of the hell that you know.

God bless,
Rhema

He did.
The human mind cannot comprehend Heaven or Hell unless the few times where it was permitted. Even then the "weird wording" is b/c the men had limited knowledge and vocabulary to explain it.
God doesn't give people a "trial" of either anymore. There's no "If you don't believe or change I'm going to send you to Hell for 5 minutes." while the rest of us are oblivious.
There was a "Hell on Earth that people could understand b/c they could go there and see it.

Jesus spoke more on Hell than anyone. In the NT alone 23 times which He does say "eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." This wasn't some "parable".
You can disagree all you want but it's all there for anyone to read.

 

[amateurscholar]

Christian universalism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Basically this is the belief that everyone will ultimately be saved.
There seems to be a lot of disagreement on the timing of these between the churches that adhere to this doctrine.

The Universalist doctrine does not believe in annihilation. Everyone lives forever. However, they believe everyone is ultimately saved
and no one stays in hell/lake of fire.

Some believe the wicked will go hell for a "short" stay.... this seems to vary church by church. Maybe for a few minutes, maybe a few weeks, maybe a year or two at the longest.
Others believe no one will ever go to hell or the Lake of Fire... ever, at all.
Yet others believe some will go the lake of Fire for possibly a "very long time", this is hard to pin down on the internet, but it seems it could be as
long as tens of thousands of years. But again, ultimately, once penance is paid they will be saved.

Bible verses used to support this are...

1. 1 Timothy 2:3-4: "This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
2. 1 John 2:2: "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."
3. Philippians 2:10-11: "So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
4. Romans 5:18: "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."
5. Colossians 1:19-20: "For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."

I find the concept of Christian universalism to be a fascinating and complex topic that intersects with theology, philosophy, and human psychology. While this view is not aligned with traditional Catholic doctrine, it's important to approach it with an open and analytical mind.

Historically the idea of universal salvation has roots that stretch back to the early Church Fathers, particularly Origen of Alexandria in the 3rd century. But it's crucial to note that Origen's views on this matter were later condemned by the Church. The concept has resurfaced periodically throughout Christian history, often in times of social upheaval or intellectual ferment.

As a Catholic, I must point out that the Church's official position, as stated in the Catechism, maintains the reality of hell and the possibility of eternal separation from God (CCC 1033-1037). But the Church also teaches that God desires the salvation of all (1 Timothy 2:4), which creates a tension that theologians have grappled with for centuries.

The appeal of universalism is understandable. The idea that all will ultimately be reconciled to God can provide comfort and hope, especially in the face of suffering or when contemplating the fate of loved ones. It aligns with our innate desire for justice and reconciliation, and our difficulty in accepting the concept of eternal punishment.

But it's important to consider the potential psychological implications of this belief. If one believes that all will eventually be saved regardless of their actions, it could potentially lead to moral laxity or a diminished sense of urgency in spiritual matters. On the other hand, it could also foster a more compassionate and inclusive approach to others, seeing all people as ultimately destined for redemption.

The verses cited to support universalism are thought-provoking. But I would caution against reading these in isolation. They need to be understood within the broader context of Scripture and the Church's interpretative tradition. For instance, while 1 Timothy 2:4 speaks of God's desire for all to be saved, it doesn't necessarily imply that this desire will be fulfilled for all.

The concept of time in relation to eternity is complex. The idea of a temporary hell, as proposed by some universalists, raises philosophical questions about the nature of eternity and divine justice that are not easily resolved.

It's crucial to approach these topics with humility, recognizing the limits of our human understanding when it comes to divine mysteries. As St. Paul reminds us, "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known" (1 Corinthians 13:12).

 

[Rhema]

You can disagree all you want but it's all there for anyone to read.

Anyone? I doubt you can read what is written:

εις το πυρ το αιωνιον το ητοιμασμενον τω διαβολω και τοις αγγελοις αυτου​

(But let me know if I'm wrong.)

"eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

It must somehow be very comforting to just blindly follow your translators.

Fire consumes and nothing is left, so not the hell you know.

Rhema

 

[joestue]

the fire is eternal because God isn't going to stop creating, and creation(s) are going to keep rebelling.

/ducks...

 

[Christ4Ever]

Fire consumes and nothing is left, so not the hell you know.

And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed. Exodus 3:2 KJV

Maybe it's not the fire we are thinking of...

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
P.S. I didn't mean to intrude on your discussion, but your mentioning this brought the bush to mind.

 

[Rhema]

Maybe it's not the fire we are thinking of...

I understand the sentiment, but it is an all consuming fire that's spoken of for the unrepentant.

The unrepentant aren't God.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.​

(Matthew 13:40 KJV)

When one burns tares, it doesn't make a fire that doesn't consume the tares.

Blessings,
Rhema

 

[Christ4Ever]

I understand the sentiment, but it is an all consuming fire that's spoken of for the unrepentant.

The unrepentant aren't God.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.​

(Matthew 13:40 KJV)

When one burns tares, it doesn't make a fire that doesn't consume the tares.

Blessings,
Rhema

Thankfully it's tares that are being burned up and not people! Yikes. (Humor)

So, you agree there is different possible affects when "fire" is discussed scripturally. Maybe even the realm involved might dictate results. Selah

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[B-A-C]

Heb 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.

 

[Rhema]

Thankfully it's tares that are being burned up and not people! Yikes. (Humor)

You object to the metaphor where the tares clearly ARE people ?!?
People are burned alive every day, and nothing is left.
Even dead people are burned in such intense heat that not even their bones are left.
And they willingly pay for this.
It's called cremation. (Humor.)

So, you agree there is different possible affects when "fire" is discussed scripturally.

There is the consuming fire of destruction where that which is burned no longer exists, including the souls of men. Only Ash remains.

And there is a baptism of tongues of fire at the impartation of the Holy Spirit.

With Moses, there may not have even been a real bush.

Maybe even the realm involved might dictate results. Selah

It would be a fool's errand to try and impart knowledge that cannot possibly be known. The Greek words behind "eternal damnation" are quite literally the "permanent ceasing to exist."

One should resist the temptation of imposing Zelazny's shadow world systems onto New Testament theology.

God bless,
Rhema

 

[KingJ]

You object to the metaphor where the tares clearly ARE people ?!?
People are burned alive every day, and nothing is left.
Even dead people are burned in such intense heat that not even their bones are left.
And they willingly pay for this.
It's called cremation. (Humor.)

Luke 16:24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

You are coming unstuck because for some reason you think your physical body will burn in hell.

A human is three parts 1 Thess 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole 1. spirit and 2. soul and 3. body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The righteous receiving a resurrected body is a separate topic. It is in addition to the three parts we currently have.

It would be a fool's errand to try and impart knowledge that cannot possibly be known. The Greek words behind "eternal damnation" are quite literally the "permanent ceasing to exist."

Incorrect.

Eternity is another point of contention. Annihilationists are correct that the Greek word aionion, which is usually translated “eternal,” does not by definition mean “eternal.” It refers to an “age” or “eon,” a specific period of time. In some passages, however, aionion is without question used to refer to an eternity. Revelation 20:10 speaks of Satan, the beast, and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire and being “tormented day and night forever and ever.” These three are not “extinguished” by being cast into the lake of fire, but their torment goes on forever. Why would the fate of the unsaved, who are also thrown into the lake of fire, be any different (Revelation 20:14-15)? Is annihilationism biblical? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Christ4Ever]

With Moses, there may not have even been a real bush.

It would be a fool's errand to try and impart knowledge that cannot possibly be known.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[MedicBravo]

Anyone? I doubt you can read what is written:

εις το πυρ το αιωνιον το ητοιμασμενον τω διαβολω και τοις αγγελοις αυτου​

(But let me know if I'm wrong.)


It must somehow be very comforting to just blindly follow your translators.

Fire consumes and nothing is left, so not the hell you know.

Rhema

You think you're the only one?
You assume much.

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
There are a few good links to the Bible translated word for word by native Greek speakers among other languages.
You're calling the KJV and those who believe what they read "stupid".
Who are you to have such an ego?
I highly doubt you are fluent in Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew.

 

[Rhema]

You think you're the only one?

One what? The only one who can read Koine Greek? Well that would be absurd, wouldn't it. How could I learn the language if there were no one who could teach it? But there are bad doctors, bad lawyers, bad teachers, bad linguists and really bad theologians.

You assume much.

Is this your way of letting me know that you DO understand Greek or that you do NOT understand Greek? (Your reply wasn't clear.)

There are a few good links to the Bible translated word for word by native Greek speakers among other languages.

And here is where your thinking does indeed go off the rails. There ARE NO native Koine Greek speakers. Modern Greek is quite different from the 2,000 year old dialect in which the New Testament texts were written. Even English has morphed over a mere 400 years since the KJV was written. Take a trip down the topic of "false friends" in the KJV translation.

But if you truly indeed want a EXCELLENT Greek word for word interlinear, I'll buy this book for you. (Seriously.)

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament in Greek…

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament does thr…

www.goodreads.com

You can then do the comparisons for yourself.

You're calling the KJV and those who believe what they read "stupid".

Not stupid... misled. Perhaps not well educated and in a position to be easily duped. A stupid person would walk away and not accept the offer of a free book that would help to enlighten them.

But perhaps I haven't made myself clear. The King James Translation was a product of the Church of England and scholars already indoctrinated to believe the concepts that they put forth. I'm sure there were more than a few people who realized that the Greek text meant something different than that which they were presenting, but also knew that had they been truthful, the King would have had them executed for heresy. Within a mere 38 years after the 1611 KJV was published, the Puritans beheaded James' son. And a hundred years earlier Martin Luther was given a death sentence. But I find the typical American Christian to be appalling ignorant about the history of their own church.

Who are you to have such an ego?

Oh dear. Have I hit a nerve? Such a knee-jerk emotional response will just keep you in the dark. (About many thing.)

I highly doubt you are fluent in Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew.

You only need to ask.

I know nothing of Aramaic. And Hebrew hurts my head. One must "twist the mindset" in order to make sense of ancient Hebrew. But it's not impossible, and I've tackled a few difficult passages like Gen. 4:4 (take a quick look at H8159 and tell me if you see anything problematic), but I do miss the days when I could walk down the hall to the Ancient Semitic Languages department.

That said, I've spent 50 years reading New Testament Greek. So I know my way around a text.

Kindly,
Rhema


Wait, are you asking me to efface myself with false humility?

 

[Rhema]

Even English has morphed over a mere 400 years since the KJV was written.

English from the 14th century:

 

[MedicBravo]

One what? The only one who can read Koine Greek? Well that would be absurd, wouldn't it. How could I learn the language if there were no one who could teach it? But there are bad doctors, bad lawyers, bad teachers, bad linguists and really bad theologians.


Is this your way of letting me know that you DO understand Greek or that you do NOT understand Greek? (Your reply wasn't clear.)


And here is where your thinking does indeed go off the rails. There ARE NO native Koine Greek speakers. Modern Greek is quite different from the 2,000 year old dialect in which the New Testament texts were written. Even English has morphed over a mere 400 years since the KJV was written. Take a trip down the topic of "false friends" in the KJV translation.

But if you truly indeed want a EXCELLENT Greek word for word interlinear, I'll buy this book for you. (Seriously.)

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament in Greek…

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament does thr…

www.goodreads.com

You can then do the comparisons for yourself.


Not stupid... misled. Perhaps not well educated and in a position to be easily duped. A stupid person would walk away and not accept the offer of a free book that would help to enlighten them.

But perhaps I haven't made myself clear. The King James Translation was a product of the Church of England and scholars already indoctrinated to believe the concepts that they put forth. I'm sure there were more than a few people who realized that the Greek text meant something different than that which they were presenting, but also knew that had they been truthful, the King would have had them executed for heresy. Within a mere 38 years after the 1611 KJV was published, the Puritans beheaded James' son. And a hundred years earlier Martin Luther was given a death sentence. But I find the typical American Christian to be appalling ignorant about the history of their own church.


Oh dear. Have I hit a nerve? Such a knee-jerk emotional response will just keep you in the dark. (About many thing.)


You only need to ask.

I know nothing of Aramaic. And Hebrew hurts my head. One must "twist the mindset" in order to make sense of ancient Hebrew. But it's not impossible, and I've tackled a few difficult passages like Gen. 4:4 (take a quick look at H8159 and tell me if you see anything problematic), but I do miss the days when I could walk down the hall to the Ancient Semitic Languages department.

That said, I've spent 50 years reading New Testament Greek. So I know my way around a text.

Kindly,
Rhema


Wait, are you asking me to efface myself with false humility?

Have I hit a nerve? Such a knee-jerk emotional response will just keep you in the dark. (About many thing.) - Assumption.
The entire church has its problems.
Catholics do a lot worse than the rest of us combined and then state "tradition" for the excuse.
In a world of at least 6 billion people, you state with no evidence. "There are no native Koine Greek speakers."
"I've spent 50 years reading New Testament Greek." - So? You're one person. There are many who can do more and have done the work with the most accurate word for word translations to English with match the KJV and is the most widely used version given English speakers.

I'm not asking anything of you but b/c you "supposedly can read the Greek" makes you better.
These versions have been widely accepted long before you were born.