What does Jesus mean when he says

B-A-C · Feb 16, 2013

Barny said:
Instead, I would suggest to you that all those varying physical behavior improvements, that you focus so much on, are in fact a result of our relationship with God.

I would suggest you quit calling it "physical behavior", and call it what God calls it.
Rom 6:13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
1 Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

The way I see it, there are no verses saying "don't ask for forgiveness", "don't repent", "don't do good deeds just because your salvation doesn't depend on it".
On the other hand, if you are wrong ....
Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Well, that might be a stickier situation. What you have against people repenting? People confessing sins? People wanting to love God? People wanting to love their neighbors?
Why are these things so offensive to you?

Barny · Feb 17, 2013

Hi B-A-C,

Unfortunately you misunderstand the scriptures you quote and this is made worse by your trust in misleading modern versions of the Bible that you continue to use.

You still have not addressed those contradictions the modern Bible versions create for the doctrine you propose.
It seems you have not really considered the contradictions of what you preach. Whilst your claim that we're saved by grace is correct, you continue to use scripture incorrectly to preach condemnation through a contradiction that should we exceed God's unlimited forgiveness, then we're lost.

I hope you do truly believe the gospel of grace.
But when you contradict the gospel of grace with a gospel stating that if we slip up once too often then we're lost, this is error.

B-A-C · Feb 17, 2013

Barny said:
I hope you do truly believe the gospel of grace.
But when you contradict the gospel of grace with a gospel stating that if we slip up once too often then we're lost, this is error.

I believe the whole point of the Gospel of grace is... when we sin, we are forgiven,
If we didn't sin, we wouldn't need any grace. How "often" we sin has nothing to do with it. Our heart has everything to do with it.

Barny said:
In Christ we've "ceased from sin", 1 Pet 4:1, "cannot sin", 1 John 3:6-9
We abide in Christ, 1 John 3:6, nd in Christ there is no sin, 1 John 3, 5

As you say, my Bibles word this differently. King James says it similarly, but not when you post the preceding and succeeding verses,
(which you refuse to do). But keep this in mind. If we can not sin. If one little slip up ruins our salvation. Then there is no grace.
If on the other hand, this applies to those "who keep practicing" or "keep living in" sin. Then there is grace as long as they have repentant heart.

Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

Barny · Feb 17, 2013

B-A-C said:
I believe the whole point of the Gospel of grace is... when we sin, we are forgiven,
If we didn't sin, we wouldn't need any grace. How "often" we sin has nothing to do with it. Our heart has everything to do with it.,

But Rom 3:25 tells us we were forgiven at the cross for PAST sin only.
And this is confirmed by 1Pet 4:1 we've "ceased from sin", and 1John 3:9 we "cannot sin".

As only past sin was remitted at the cross how do you propose any subsequent sin is dealt with? We can't sacrifice Christ on the cross again for them.

B-A-C said:
As you say, my Bibles word this differently. King James says it similarly, but not when you post the preceding and succeeding verses,
(which you refuse to do). But keep this in mind. If we can not sin. If one little slip up ruins our salvation. Then there is no grace.
If on the other hand, this applies to those "who keep practicing" or "keep living in" sin. Then there is grace as long as they have repentant heart..,

What happens should someone forget to repent for some so called "sin"? That would make for very stressful life if you had to continually and diligently keep up to date with your repentance for fear that you miss out on grace due to forgeting to repent over some "sin".

And since our past sin was dealt with by Christ's sacrifice on the cross, how is it that subsequent sins are dealt with without a sacrifice. This is a contradiction.

And as we were cleansed of our past "sin" by the blood of Christ, why do you then say we're still dirty with sin?
Why call unclean what God has cleansed?

B-A-C · Feb 17, 2013

Barny said:
As only past sin was remitted at the cross how do you propose any subsequent sin is dealt with? We can't sacrifice Christ on the cross again for them.

One sacrifice is enough. Keep asking for forgiveness and keep repenting if necessary. Heb 10:26 is talking about willfully choosing to keep on sinning (or living a life of sin)
not the occasional sin, nor sins done in the heat of the moment because I was angry or hurt (these may be intentional sins, but they are different from choosing a life of continual sin over a period of time)

Barny said:
And as we were cleansed of our past "sin" by the blood of Christ, why do you then say we're still dirty with sin?
Why call unclean what God has cleansed?

I would call dishes fresh out of the dishwasher clean. I would call those same dishes after a meal or two dirty. Hence, washing your feet every once in a while.
There is no new sacrifice needed, Jesus paid the price for all our sins. Now whether he pays for them in the past (on the cross), present (in real time as we commit them), or future
(at the Great throne judgement) doesn't really matter that much to me. It's possible he paid for them in the past , since he knows the future and all the sins we will ever commit.
Including the ones we commit after we become a Christian.

DHC · Feb 17, 2013

Barny said:
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

The teaching of the apostles was simply believing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Belief in Jesus initiates salvation, faith is the gift given to us to be exercised.
We may only ever be saved through Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God
through our Lord Jesus Christ.

What you really believe in will determine all the steps you take in life.

B-A-C · Feb 17, 2013

Barny said:
Why call unclean what God has cleansed?

To me, Acts 11:9; and Acts 10:15; are talking about the Gentiles. Peter ends his explanation of the vision with these two verses.

Act 11:17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"
Act 11:18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

So what God has "called clean" is the Gentiles, meaning that it's OK for Jews to associate, preach the Gospel to, and eat with the Gentiles.
Now, having said that. Are ALL Gentiles clean? No, only those who "God has granted the repentance that leads to life" (Acts 11:18 paraphrased)
Once again, we see repentance is involved here.

jeremiah1five · Feb 17, 2013

To me that statement means that the person will sin no more because Jesus will soon atone in TIME all the sins of His people. It is a command that will be fulfilled because in the atonement their sin will be "no more."

Barny · Feb 17, 2013

B-A-C said:
One sacrifice is enough. Keep asking for forgiveness and keep repenting if necessary. Heb 10:26 is talking about willfully choosing to keep on sinning (or living a life of sin)
not the occasional sin, nor sins done in the heat of the moment because I was angry or hurt (these may be intentional sins, but they are different from choosing a life of continual sin over a period of time).

Unfortunately the contradictions of the doctrine you propose are not being addressed.

You speak of Heb 10:26 referring to "living a life of sin", but this is just another contradiction to your earlier claim that God forgives 7 trillion x 7 trillion. I had asked you whether so many trillions of so called "sin" is "habitual" or "living a life of sin" and you indicated that God's forgiveness has no limits.
But this is clearly a contradiction.

What extent of "sin" determines that one is "living a life of sin" ?
This is important to know as it affects our salvation therefore there should be scripture outlining details as to what exactly is too much, as to exceed God's unlimited forgiveness.
And surely 7 trillion x 7 trillion "sin" is "living a life of sin".

The doctrine you propose offers no details from scripture to give any certainty of whether we are saved. You claim our lifestyle/behavior can affect our salvation, but you give no details. You only offer that an ambiguous/unknown level of bad behaviour is the determining factor that concludes such persons to be lost, under your gospel.

Such a contradictory and ambiguous message is clearly not the gospel of grace.

B-A-C said:
I would call dishes fresh out of the dishwasher clean. I would call those same dishes after a meal or two dirty. Hence, washing your feet every once in a while.
There is no new sacrifice needed, Jesus paid the price for all our sins. Now whether he pays for them in the past (on the cross), present (in real time as we commit them), or future
(at the Great throne judgement) doesn't really matter that much to me. It's possible he paid for them in the past , since he knows the future and all the sins we will ever commit.
Including the ones we commit after we become a Christian.

We discussed the washing of feet earlier. It speaks of preaching the gospel (not washing away sin after the cross).
Note the following scriptures.
Isa 52:7
How beautiful upon the mountains Are the feet of him who brings good news, Who proclaims peace, Who brings glad tidings of good things, Who proclaims salvation, Who says to Zion, “Your God reigns!”

Rom 10:15
And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

Eph 6:15
having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Washing one anothers feet speaks of preaching the gospel. Those who accept it will be completely clean and have Christ in them.

And regarding your claim that Christians become dirty with sin again, note how Heb 10 speaks of how the blood of bulls/goats could not take away sin. But with the perfect sacrifice "there is no more rememberance of sin".

Christ's sacrifice was the perfect sacrifice that dealt with sin once and for all. After that we've ceased from sin, 1Pet 4:1, "cannot sin:, 1John 3:9

DHC · Feb 18, 2013

When "repentance" is used in the Bible it usually means a deep
change in the fundamental belief system. Though repentance may
be seen by some as ridding oneself of sinful deeds and committing
good works. This is not the process that scripture describes so much.

Biblical repentance is the reversal of belief in one's own self righteousness,
to the belief in Jesus Christ and the resulting righteousness. Self will is
yielded to the will of the only sovereign God Himself.

Romans 6
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed?
For the end of those things is death.
22But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God,
you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in
Christ Jesus our Lord.

Line 22 above does clearly state that we are set free from sin.
So "repentance" must be seen in the light of an alteration of
belief systems. That is why the belief in Jesus Christ, that is the
Gospel is vital. It is not what sins you have turned from but who
you really believe that will determine how your destiny unfolds.

Hebrews 10:14
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Our perfection has already been accomplished, it remains only to
endure in the belief in Jesus.

Hebrews 10:39
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who
believe to the saving of the soul.

Christ4Ever · Feb 18, 2013

Hell Barny! You have not been forgotten!
It has been some enlightening reading, praying, revelation of His Holy Word. For which I can thank-you, but give it all to how great and merciful God we serve! Which is why I have not quoted specific parts of your previous posting to me. I pray you will understand why as you read.

Day 1

Though I recognize what you are saying, the words would fail me in attempting to overcome the gap between spiritual and carnal thought which is needed to build the bridge which must be crossed. However, you must be able to do so in order to be understood at all. How you will do that I do not know. Perhaps the Holy Spirit will provide you the words to bridge what I believe can only be crossed by individual revelation.

(In so saying. You must remember that God's Law, is righteous and only due to sin's use of it as a vehicle by which man is chained, that it is seen as being otherwise. So at the same time that you attempt to build that bridge; don't believe you can do so without the acknowledgment that God's Law is righteous. For any attempt to say otherwise would fall on deaf ears with God's Children and rightfully so, since to do so, would be laying the foundation on sin having corrupted God's righteousness which cannot be done or explained away.)

Rereading of Romans, in line with what you are trying to say, has truly cleared up a lot. Can I explain it? Nope Yet it does provide me a greater understanding what you are or will go through and what Paul was going through to be understood as described in Romans 6:19 "I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh:...." (KJV) & "I am speaking in human terms because of your natural imitations....." (NRSV)

It also better clarifies Romans 7:14-25 in trying to explain how one can still be sanctified through Christ Jesus (Romans 6:22) when behavior as accorded by sin is seen to be contrary to the law which includes the commandment of Loving one another.

What actually did help (one girder) was the possibility that I presented to you that upon our death that the law of sin attributed to the flesh would cease to apply. After reading Romans 7:1-3 and the rest of Chapter 7 with new eyes, that the thought was correct, but would have been better served in another way then in the fashion I presented it in.

Yet with all that I've written just now (Day 1), I continued to pray for clarity and understanding. I awoke from sleep last night with the need to write items of concern which had suddenly came upon my spirit, and would not allow me to rest without putting pen to paper. What follows, if in a convoluted sort of way, is what I felt compelled to write.

Day 2

How does one identify spiritual corruption especially within the established churches? We know that Satan is a liar, and that would be no different for any of his minions. The following example came to mind: Convicted pedophile who professes to be a believer after conviction, do we allow to teach children within the church? Do we accept his profession of faith and allow him to work with the children? With the knowledge that sin does not exist in the individual believer or with loving care direct him to other areas of service, which would exclude contact with children? If we do not allow him, to what he may say is a calling, what justification would we use to deny him said position if we choose to do so? The same could be said for a convicted thief, taking care of the churches finances. The list I guess could go on and on, but the issue remains the same. How, do we apply spiritual admonitions on man's carnal nature to church practice.

My unease is that we would need to be able to discern the spiritual state of an individual believer in order to make an accurate decision.

Such situations I know and I'm sure you are aware of as well, are not just what if scenarios since they occur in churches today worldwide. The same would be for any immoral behavior, yet for the individual believer this is not of concern since it is not accorded as sin. Within cooperate service, do we allow individuals of such behavior to practice openly within ministry and in positions of authority? When behaviors are set scripturally on how to identify the appropriate person for said position, how does spiritual discernment get applied without identifying the carnal nature of man in someone who once again professes to be a believer?

Also, what type of mechanism is used to remove non-believers from corporate worship or identify them so as to not be placed in positions of authority within your church or any church for that matter? Teachers, counselors etc. These examples are somewhat similar yet individually are pertinent in describing the wide range of sin creeping into today's churches from the world, and the increased need of discernment.

As an individual believer and even within a group of believers the position you outlined has <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w

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That is why understanding of scripture might be spiritual, but application thereof must also pertain and have applicability to the secular or carnal as well. 2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

This might seem that I've gone from one position yours in the first part of what I wrote to the reverse position I had previously held. Not so, but to relegate either part of what I've written to the scrap heap would lack honesty to you, or to myself, which would be worse still.
YBIC
C4E
Colossians 3:9-10

Barny · Feb 19, 2013

Christ4Ever said:
Though I recognize what you are saying, the words would fail me in attempting to overcome the gap between spiritual and carnal thought which is needed to build the bridge which must be crossed. However, you must be able to do so in order to be understood at all. How you will do that I do not know. Perhaps the Holy Spirit will provide you the words to bridge what I believe can only be crossed by individual revelation.

Correct, individual revelation will do it. It's the Spirit within us that gives us understanding. It may not come straight away, but ask of God and He will give it, James 1:5

1Cor 2:13
"These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

1John 2:27
the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

Christ4Ever said:
You must remember that God's Law, is righteous and only due to sin's use of it as a vehicle by which man is chained, that it is seen as being otherwise. So at the same time that you attempt to build that bridge; don't believe you can do so without the acknowledgment that God's Law is righteous. .

I agree the law is righteous. It's even called the law of righteousness, Rom 9:31.
The law is also described as "good", "just" and "holy", Rom 7:12
It seems your missing my point. For man to try to keep the law/justification by works/being under the law, will only result in condemnation and death. Being under the law is seeking to establish your own righteousness by works, instead of submitting to God's righteousness, Rom 10:3.

Christ4Ever said:
Rereading of Romans, in line with what you are trying to say, has truly cleared up a lot. Can I explain it? Nope Yet it does provide me a greater understanding what you are or will go through and what Paul was going through to be understood as described in Romans 6:19 "I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh:...." (KJV) & "I am speaking in human terms because of your natural imitations....." (NRSV)
It also better clarifies Romans 7:14-25 in trying to explain how one can still be sanctified through Christ Jesus (Romans 6:22) when behavior as accorded by sin is seen to be contrary to the law which includes the commandment of Loving one another.

What actually did help (one girder) was the possibility that I presented to you that upon our death that the law of sin attributed to the flesh would cease to apply. After reading Romans 7:1-3 and the rest of Chapter 7 with new eyes, that the thought was correct, but would have been better served in another way then in the fashion I presented it in..

Correct. It's upon our death, when our old man was crucified with Christ, (by faith) Rom 6:6, that the law of sin (rebellion against God) ceased (1Pet 4:1). We submitted to God's righteousness instead of seeking to establish our own, by works of the law.

Christ4Ever said:
How does one identify spiritual corruption especially within the established churches? We know that Satan is a liar, and that would be no different for any of his minions.

Thats true, Satan is a liar.
And 1John 2:22 confirms who is a liar.
"Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.

This is the lie that Satan tries to lead man in to. And Satan will try to lure Christians back under the law for righteousness, which is denying that Jesus is the Christ.
Tit 1:16 They profess to know God, but in works (of the law) they deny Him,

Remember going under the law is fornication with Hagar. Going under the law is seeking to establish your own righteousness by works. Hence why we see so many warnings in scripture against turning back to the law.
Turning back to the law is to make yourself a transgressor/Sinner, Gal 2:18.
2Cor 11:3
But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Christ4Ever said:
The following example came to mind: Convicted pedophile who professes to be a believer after conviction, do we allow to teach children within the church? Do we accept his profession of faith and allow him to work with the children? With the knowledge that sin does not exist in the individual believer or with loving care direct him to other areas of service, which would exclude contact with children? If we do not allow him, to what he may say is a calling, what justification would we use to deny him said position if we choose to do so? The same could be said for a convicted thief, taking care of the churches finances. The list I guess could go on and on, but the issue remains the same. How, do we apply spiritual admonitions on man's carnal nature to church practice.

You offer some extreme examples here. But there are so many more subtle ones that are even commonly accepted amongst Christians. What of the all to common divorce and remarriage culture we see in so many churches. And the pastors even endorse these marriages.
But, under the law they're described as adultery, Mark 10:11,12

Christ4Ever said:
My unease is that we would need to be able to discern the spiritual state of an individual believer in order to make an accurate decision.
Such situations I know and I'm sure you are aware of as well, are not just what if scenarios since they occur in churches today worldwide. The same would be for any immoral behavior, yet for the individual believer this is not of concern since it is not accorded as sin. Within cooperate service, do we allow individuals of such behavior to practice openly within ministry and in positions of authority? When behaviors are set scripturally on how to identify the appropriate person for said position, how does spiritual discernment get applied without identifying the carnal nature of man in someone who once again professes to be a believer?

Regarding the wrongful behaviors that we often see, remember God dsiciplines us. Consider King David who even thought he got away with his adultery and murder, until God disciplined him.
Other than this I can't offer a more in depth explaination.

Christ4Ever said:
Also, what type of mechanism is used to remove non-believers from corporate worship or identify them so as to not be placed in positions of authority within your church or any church for that matter? Teachers, counselors etc. These examples are somewhat similar yet individually are pertinent in describing the wide range of sin creeping into today's churches from the world, and the increased need of discernment.

Again, it's God who disciplines Christians.

As for non-believers in the church, we are not to fellowship with them. Here I speak of non-believers who are in spiritual fornication with Hagar/the law, Gal 4:24. Spiritual drunkeness, railing, extortion, idolater etc all describes the non-believer.
1Cor 5:11-13
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Christ4Ever said:
As an individual believer and even within a group of believers the position you outlined has soundness, yet unless the non-believer can be identified and is excluded by checks and balances, the acknowledgment that sin exists and can ingrate its self within the church through not only spiritual, but physical means as well, we leave ourselves to deception as seen in many of today's churches without a clear understanding of what is acceptable and what is not to succeeding generations, regardless if the individual believer "does not sin".

That is why understanding of scripture might be spiritual, but application thereof must also pertain and have applicability to the secular or carnal as well. 2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

This might seem that I've gone from one position yours in the first part of what I wrote to the reverse position I had previously held. Not so, but to relegate either part of what I've written to the scrap heap would lack honesty to you, or to myself, which would be worse still.

Scripture warns us against turning back to sin/unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9. This is the sin the world is convicted of.
It is unbelief in Jesus that is the deception we need to be wary of within the church. And the most common method Satan uses is to try to lure us back under the law/fornication with Hagar.

As for the physical behavior your concerned about, yes, we do see many failings amongst Christians, including the most diligent law keepers. Neither you nor I can claim to be perfect in behavior. And remember God disciplines us for our own good.

So praise God that our righteousness is not determined by our behavior/lifestyle. Our body is dead because of sin, Rom 8:10 and we have Christ in us.

Christ4Ever · Feb 19, 2013

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w

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Seems as we go along there is more agreement then disagreement. Maybe, still some misunderstanding on certain statements, but overall rather positive won't you say?

Barny said:
I agree the law is righteous. It's even called the law of righteousness, Rom 9:31.
The law is also described as "good", "just" and "holy", Rom 7:12
It seems your missing my point. For man to try to keep the law/justification by works/being under the law, will only result in condemnation and death. Being under the law is seeking to establish your own righteousness by works, instead of submitting to God's righteousness, Rom 10:3.

No I wasn't missing your point at all. Please reread that particular paragraph that I wrote. What I was trying to communicate to you was when addressing the issue of God's Law be aware that in any attempt you make in this area, it can in no way diminish its righteousness or regardless of how right your position may be, you will still be wrong.

"law/justification and or works/being under the law". We agree in those areas in so far as works for the purpose of salvation or justification.

Barny said:
Thats true, Satan is a liar.
And 1John 2:22 confirms who is a liar.
"Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. This is the lie that Satan tries to lead man in to. And Satan will try to lure Christians back under the law for righteousness, which is denying that Jesus is the Christ.
Tit 1:16They profess to know God, but in works (of the law) they deny Him,

I've been reading a book on Native Spirituality and within its pages the author made a fine point that I'd like to share with you. The author showed that Satan is not always so obvious as to suggest that or attempt to have the saved believe that Jesus is not the Christ. The attempt is to lower God by making him inclusive along with all worshiped deities by utilizing a false perception of Christ to do so. Tell people that the God of Jesus can be found in every culture (Equate to nation in the bible.) even if Jesus is not. So introduce them to Jesus, but let them continue to worship their god/s in the fashion of their culture. What would you say? Hopefully, you see the deception in this method. Yet, its making its way to many churches, especially if the area of the church's location is within a previously held majority of other god worship. Is it possible to be saved and still worship other gods? OT Israeli all over again is how I see it and my answer would be no.

Barny said:
You offer some extreme examples here. But there are so many more subtle ones that are even commonly accepted amongst Christians. What of the all to common divorce and remarriage culture we see in so many churches. And the pastors even endorse these marriages.
But, under the law they're described as adultery, Mark 10:11,12

Sadly the examples are not really so extreme in this day and age. It just doesn't get advertised too much. Makes the sheep restless to believe that their children may be in danger. That is the case regardless of salvation status.

Agree with your example. However, that was not the point to be made here.

I posed a couple of questions within that paragraph. Still looking for answers. Not the least of which is "How, do we apply spiritual admonitions on man's carnal nature to church practice." Though I can agree with what you've stated after prayer and scripture reading, it still doesn't diminish how to address church practices when dealing with the carnal nature of man. Allowing that God will discipline the believer, churches contain unbelievers as well. Was hoping you might know, or be aware of how your church deals with such issues.

Barny said:
Regarding the wrongful behaviors that we often see, remember God dsiciplines us. Consider King David who even thought he got away with his adultery and murder, until God disciplined him.
Other than this I can't offer a more in depth explaination.

Thanks for trying. The ability for one to not revert back to the carnal nature, to deal with situations within the church seems to be one that must be taken with great care.

Barny said:
Again, it's God who disciplines Christians.

As for non-believers in the church, we are not to fellowship with them. Here I speak of non-believers who are in spiritual fornication with Hagar/the law, Gal 4:24. Spiritual drunkeness, railing, extortion, idolater etc all describes the non-believer.
1Cor 5:11-13
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Agreed. Then the church must have some type of method for dealing with such situations. Just came to mind. How does one address the person who you might be asked to leave, who boldly states that you have no problem with so and so and they're a member of your church. Interesting dilemma. I would not want to be the person trying to explain that one. You've had a hard time explaining here on this thread and you've been dealing with believers! Imagine how much more difficult with unbelievers!

Barny said:
Scripture warns us against turning back to sin/unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9. This is the sin the world is convicted of.
It is unbelief in Jesus that is the deception we need to be wary of within the church. And the most common method Satan uses is to try to lure us back under the law/fornication with Hagar.

As for the physical behavior your concerned about, yes, we do see many failings amongst Christians, including the most diligent law keepers. Neither you nor I can claim to be perfect in behavior. And remember God disciplines us for our own good.

So praise God that our righteousness is not determined by our behavior/lifestyle. Our body is dead because of sin, Rom 8:10 and we have Christ in us.

Amen to that brother!

It's been mighty interesting and helpful for that I thank-you. Focusing on the posts between us, hasn't left me much time to read what others have been saying. We're nearing the end, of our communication, and so will have more time to digest more of what others are saying on this subject.
God Bless.
YBIC
C4E

Barny · Feb 19, 2013

Christ4Ever said:
 Hello Barny!
Seems as we go along there is more agreement then disagreement. Maybe, still some misunderstanding on certain statements, but overall rather positive won't you say?
No I wasn't missing your point at all. Please reread that particular paragraph that I wrote. What I was trying to communicate to you was when addressing the issue of God's Law be aware that in any attempt you make in this area, it can in no way diminish its righteousness or regardless of how right your position may be, you will still be wrong.

"law/justification and or works/being under the law". We agree in those areas in so far as works for the purpose of salvation or justification.

I see the law as being the principles of God. This is righteousness.
And yes, we agree salvation is not by works of the law.

As my posts have been focusing on the message that we should not turn to works of the law to be justified, I guess some saw it as my denigrating the law. This was not the intention.

But my message will continue to push the same warnings as we see so often in scripture, that we should not turn back to works of the law.

Christ4Ever said:
Sadly the examples are not really so extreme in this day and age. It just doesn't get advertised too much. Makes the sheep restless to believe that their children may be in danger. That is the case regardless of salvation status.

Agree with your example. However, that was not the point to be made here.

I posed a couple of questions within that paragraph. Still looking for answers. Not the least of which is "How, do we apply spiritual admonitions on man's carnal nature to church practice." Though I can agree with what you've stated after prayer and scripture reading, it still doesn't diminish how to address church practices when dealing with the carnal nature of man. Allowing that God will discipline the believer, churches contain unbelievers as well. Was hoping you might know, or be aware of how your church deals with such issues.

Thanks for trying. The ability for one to not revert back to the carnal nature, to deal with situations within the church seems to be one that must be taken with great care.

I'm non-denominational hence I rarely if ever get so involved in a local church as to see how they deal with the issues you describe.

But my point about the commonly accepted failings amongst church member, is that I see they're just as important as the examples you gave. Scripture does not provide us with a grading of wrongs from worse to lessor. Whether its the commonly accepted divorce and remarriage (Mark 10:11,12) or the wrongs that our modern society consider extreme, scripture does not make such distinction is severity. James 2:10 tells us that just one offense makes you guilty of all the law.

Such grading of wrongs as the distinguishing factor of whether someone is lost or not, is not supported in scripture.

But we should still remember that it's our believing in Jesus that determines if one is saved. Scripture shows that it's those who preach works of the law who are the most corrupting influence within the church. They are the unbelievers we're warned to put away. We are warned not to fellowship with such, as a little leaven (doctrine of works of law, Matt 16:12) leavens the whole lump, Gal 5:9.

blessings

Puddleglum · Feb 20, 2013

Barny said:
I see the law as being the principles of God. This is righteousness.
And yes, we agree salvation is not by works of the law.

As my posts have been focusing on the message that we should not turn to works of the law to be justified, I guess some saw it as my denigrating the law. This was not the intention.

But my message will continue to push the same warnings as we see so often in scripture, that we should not turn back to works of the law.[/FONT]

I'm non-denominational hence I rarely if ever get so involved in a local church as to see how they deal with the issues you describe.

But my point about the commonly accepted failings amongst church member, is that I see they're just as important as the examples you gave. Scripture does not provide us with a grading of wrongs from worse to lessor. Whether its the commonly accepted divorce and remarriage (Mark 10:11,12) or the wrongs that our modern society consider extreme, scripture does not make such distinction is severity. James 2:10 tells us that just one offense makes you guilty of all the law.

Such grading of wrongs as the distinguishing factor of whether someone is lost or not, is not supported in scripture.

But we should still remember that it's our believing in Jesus that determines if one is saved. Scripture shows that it's those who preach works of the law who are the most corrupting influence within the church. They are the unbelievers we're warned to put away. We are warned not to fellowship with such, as a little leaven (doctrine of works of law, Matt 16:12) leavens the whole lump, Gal 5:9.

blessings

Believing in Jesus is one thing as i believed in him but did not know for real who he really was as a young person but i found out who he was, not by anyone saying as such but i had faith in what they were saying to a degree to be totally truthful, but the fact was, never was it solid and fully totally convincing to me. but now i do know who he is with solid foundation and no one can mislead me at all to the fact of who he is. never never never could anyone.
Barny i have seen some christians who look on the 10 commandments as something hideous that must be rejected totally and as totally utterly useless and that they have no relevance to do with God at all and if anyone would see any actual point to them as it being evil and if in your life if you happened to even come near to such, it would be a disgrace.
But i see them as the hand of God and respectful points and if one did as such, nothing is evil about them at all. as they are a good guide. but Jesus Christ does not disregard them, Paul does not disregard them but was only pointing to the Spirit being the way to salvation. and the Point Paul was on about was not to fall back to the your works. as salvation is only through Christ.
So we have to abide in Christ and in him only and because you did something in the commandments that's not going to condemn you at all, but there is nothing wrong with it at all. like the first commandment was, You shall Worship the Lord Your God and Him Only Shall You Serve, now that would have to be wrong now would it not ? it's one of the commandments is it not ?
The Name of the Lord Is Holy. is that wrong to ?
Honer your farther and your mother. is that wrong ?
You shall not kill. ?
You shall not commit adultery. and so on. all bad things that must be rejected you think and stomped on or look down on.
Some think they can do what ever as they are going to Heaven regardless so why bother, was this not what some of the Roman Catholics low life in history did.

Barny · Feb 21, 2013

Puddleglum said:
Barny i have seen some christians who look on the 10 commandments as something hideous that must be rejected totally and as totally utterly useless and that they have no relevance to do with God at all and if anyone would see any actual point to them as it being evil and if in your life if you happened to even come near to such, it would be a disgrace.
But i see them as the hand of God and respectful points and if one did as such, nothing is evil about them at all. as they are a good guide. but Jesus Christ does not disregard them, Paul does not disregard them but was only pointing to the Spirit being the way to salvation. and the Point Paul was on about was not to fall back to the your works. as salvation is only through Christ.
So we have to abide in Christ and in him only and because you did something in the commandments that's not going to condemn you at all, but there is nothing wrong with it at all. like the first commandment was, You shall Worship the Lord Your God and Him Only Shall You Serve, now that would have to be wrong now would it not ? it's one of the commandments is it not ?
The Name of the Lord Is Holy. is that wrong to ?
Honer your farther and your mother. is that wrong ?
You shall not kill. ?
You shall not commit adultery. and so on. all bad things that must be rejected you think and stomped on or look down on.
Some think they can do what ever as they are going to Heaven regardless so why bother, was this not what some of the Roman Catholics low life in history did.

Hi Puddleglum,

I've been a Christian for over 20 years and have not encountered any Christian seeing the law as something hideous and to be rejected.
Instead I think what they may have been saying to you is that we're saved by grace and not works of the law.

Christians are under the much more glorious ministry of the Spirit/righteousness, 2Cor 3:8-11, instead of the law (ministry of condemnation/death, 2Cor 3:7).

So, what does God see as a major threat to Christians?
A little leaven, (doctrine of works of the law, Matt 16:12) leavens the whole lump, Gal 5:19.
This is a common warning in scripture. This is what God sees as one of the major temptations confronting Christians.
And this is what I have encountered often in my 20+ years as a Christian. We all know of church denominations whose focus is on "keeping the commandments" and they claim that any who disobey are lost.

Those who proclaim grace and also preach that keeping the commandments of God is required to prove/confirm ones righteousness, such are lukewarm, Rev 3:16.
It's either grace or works of the law, Rom 11:6. You can't mix these 2.

As for our physical behavior/lifestyle, that often improves as we grow as Christians. And when we do wrong God chastises us.
But our behavior/lifestyle is not how our righteousness is judged. This is where those false brethren get it wrong preaching that good behavior/lifestyle confirms we're Christians with "imparted" righteousness. Such people are in unbelief, denying God by their works Tit 1:16

DHC · Feb 21, 2013

Barny said:
Hi Puddleglum,
Christians are under the much more glorious ministry of the Spirit/righteousness, 2Cor 3:8-11, instead of the law (ministry of condemnation/death, 2Cor 3:7).

It is a delight Barny to read your posts!

You have a strong understanding of context and the
prime importance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Keep up the good work Barny.

james1523 · Feb 21, 2013

1 Tim 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully,
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes.
1 Cor 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Just like the Father clothed the Prodigal Son with the best robe , the Father has clothed us with Christ as His best robe to cover us. This is accomplished fact in the spiritual realm. In experience this is the presence of the Holy Spirit in our life, who is the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

The Spirit is not just a power for healing or miracles or other things like this. The Spirit is within you as the Spirit of life, to cause you to walk in God's commandments and sanctify you, so that you may have life to the full.

Rom 8:2 "because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.".
There is a law of the Spirit of life that is inside every believer. By following it (that is, by living and walking in the Spirit), we are set free from the law of sin and death inside us that wants to commit sin.

How do we keep the commandments? Gal 5:16 "So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will never fulfill the desires of the flesh"

When God says "Go and sin no more", He means what He says. It is wrong for the Christian to try not to sin in their own strength, which is possible by human will power alone (e.g. Buddhists and other religions practice this, as did Adam and Abel and other Old Testament folk). It is not a sin to try not to sin by following the law of the Spirit of life, this is what God desires us to do.

How do we live by the Spirit? Like this:
1 Thess 5:16-22Rejoice always; pray without ceasing;in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.Do not quench the Spirit.Do not treat prophecies with contempt but test them all; hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil.

If we quench the Spirit, if we do not pray, if we do not give thanks, if we do not reject every kind of evil.. if we do not live by the Spirit, we have no way to keep God's commandments except human effort alone.

Rom 8:1 says "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Christians who walk after the flesh are open to condemnation, because they cannot keep the law. Christians who walk after the Spirit can keep the law and in such there is no condemnation.
Some Christians have twisted this verse around and say there is no condemnation if you believe in Christ, no matter what you do or say. It doesn't say that, it says there is no condemnation if you are "in Christ", which is not just believing, it is walking in the Spirit day by day. Some think we can steal, cheat, lie, as much as we like but because we believed in Jesus , God doesn't "see" our sins and in His sight we are righteous and holy. Some have twisted this around to say that if our inward righteousness is OK (by faith in Christ), God doesn't care about outward practical righteousness. That is not how it is, this is in effect doing away with the law. God judges us by our outward/practical righteousness, what things we do, what comes out of our heart, our spoken words, not just by what we believe. The law has not been done away with, it is still in effect and God will use it to judge all mankind. What has been done away with is the keeping of the law in our own strength, and God has given us His Spirit : Ezek 36:27 "And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."

Puddleglum · Feb 21, 2013

Barny said:
Hi Puddleglum,

I've been a Christian for over 20 years and have not encountered any Christian seeing the law as something hideous and to be rejected.
Instead I think what they may have been saying to you is that we're saved by grace and not works of the law.

Christians are under the much more glorious ministry of the Spirit/righteousness, 2Cor 3:8-11, instead of the law (ministry of condemnation/death, 2Cor 3:7).

So, what does God see as a major threat to Christians?
A little leaven, (doctrine of works of the law, Matt 16:12) leavens the whole lump, Gal 5:19.
This is a common warning in scripture. This is what God sees as one of the major temptations confronting Christians.
And this is what I have encountered often in my 20+ years as a Christian. We all know of church denominations whose focus is on "keeping the commandments" and they claim that any who disobey are lost.

Those who proclaim grace and also preach that keeping the commandments of God is required to prove/confirm ones righteousness, such are lukewarm, Rev 3:16.
It's either grace or works of the law, Rom 11:6. You can't mix these 2.

As for our physical behavior/lifestyle, that often improves as we grow as Christians. And when we do wrong God chastises us.
But our behavior/lifestyle is not how our righteousness is judged. This is where those false brethren get it wrong preaching that good behavior/lifestyle confirms we're Christians with "imparted" righteousness. Such people are in unbelief, denying God by their works Tit 1:16

Grace does not conflict with the commandments but fulfils the law and it has nothing to do with "Your works"
Your works are nothing to do with God, as they are nothing to do with God but only, your own lack of spiritual awareness working in the flesh. dead works !
Jesus is the God of the living and in him we can live a life more abundantly, a fuller life ! in reality. but a worldly life is to be cast out with no hope, a weak miserable existence, like a slave to sin. Holy Moses brought the people of God out from slavery but man has the tendency to fall to sin because of the stain of original sin. the weakness of the flesh. the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, now one needs the spirit in charge of your life or you are lost, or just like a dog chasing it's tail. on the wrong path that leads to hell. then our saviour came and in him, if we abide in him and do his work we are on the right path. we are the labourers and the labourers are few. and the Bible is clear on this. as we have to abide in the vine, Jesus is the vine and we are the branchers so we have to bare fruit.
Now a mate of mine says we don't have to work as we are saved if we just believe but i say with Jesus working in you that you will obay and do his will, and that is a work in him. not a work of yourself as that is a boast. as we have no claim to it ourself's but it's the spirit working in you only.
Where is the commandments wrong, was Holy Moses wrong ? were the golden calf worshipers right in their attack of Moses ?:shock:the calf was idolatry. Moses was doing the will of God and the commandments are Gods Laws he owns them and gave them to the people that are his. they are not to be spat on like the calf idolatry slandering mugs did, as they had made their own gods and rejected the God of Abraham. Christians are not under the Law and they are not above the Law. but under Grace we do the Law in the spirit because the spirit does not offend the Law at all. not to be mistaken with works of the Law ( carnal ) as the spirit is above that. and one under Grace of the holy Spirit should be able to understand that as it's clear difference for crying out loud. some of the Jews were under the impression they could mix the two, but no you can't as the spirit is the spirit and carnal is carnal and you can't mix the two as their is clear difference.

DHC · Feb 21, 2013

Puddleglum said:
You shall Worship the Lord Your God and Him Only Shall You Serve, now that would have to be wrong now would it not ? it's one of the commandments is it not ?
The Name of the Lord Is Holy. is that wrong to ?
Honer your farther and your mother. is that wrong ?
You shall not kill. ?
.

Hello puddlegum.

I noticed you quoted the commandment "thou shall not kill".

You have a problem with the letter of the law puddlegum.

Jesus extended this commandment way beyond the letter.

Matthew 5
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder,and whoever
murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with
his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his
brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be
in danger of hell fire.

What Jesus states is far beyond the letter of the law puddlegum, you will
have to readdress your understanding of the place of the law.

It must be rewritten, "thou shall not have an ill thought towards anyone".
This is the commandment that God has given us puddlegum.

To quote "thou shall not kill" is just plain misleading, this is not the commandment
Jesus gave. I would request that no further quotations of the letter of the old
Mosaic law be made. Future reference to the commandments will be the revised
law that Jesus gave.

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