I think the main issue is what Jesus meant by “resist not evil” in Matthew 5:39. The context is personal retaliation. Jesus had just referred to “an eye for an eye” and then gave examples of being slapped, sued, compelled, and mistreated. He was forbidding personal vengeance, not teaching that Christians must never oppose evil in any circumstance.
Many thanks for this Comprehensive and Informative reply bdavidc, its given me much to think about. Just a few thoughts, as i understand it "An eye for an Eye " was not so much about personal vengeance, but was a way of stopping feuds escalating and becoming much more than the original issue merited. I wonder if Christs call to "resist not Evil" took this attempt to limit violence and forbade any form of resistance to Evil. The examples you quote in Matthew 5:40-43 further amplify this, if anyone sues you at law and takes away your coat , give him your cloke also, if someone compels you to go a mile, go two with them, give to him that asks of you and do not turn away any that would borrow from you. These do not seem to me to be limits to personal vengeance but an acquiescence to those that would take from you or compel you by force to do what they want you to do. Christ commands we offer no resistance.
Jesus Himself avoided people who were trying to kill Him. In Luke 4:29-30 they tried to throw Him off a cliff, but He passed through them and went His way. He also told His disciples, “When they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another” (Matthew 10:23). So “resist not evil” cannot mean that we must simply submit to whatever evil someone wants to do.
Is it a resistance to Evil if we avoid it and dont confront it?, it seems to me these are examples of avoiding the consequences of others intended evil acts and not resisting them.
You asked whether I believe force can ever be used in defense of yourself or another person. I believe Scripture leaves room for legitimate defense, but I would not say the Bible gives us a blanket command allowing lethal force in every self-defense situation.
"If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed." ~ Exodus 22:2 shows that Scripture distinguishes between murder and a death that occurs while defending against an immediate threat. That does not give someone permission to act out of anger, revenge, or hatred. Romans 12:19 still says, “Avenge not yourselves.”
I was looking more for a NT justification for the use of force, much changed between the OT and the teachings of Christ, particularly in our reaction to evil and the way we treat our enemies.
You also asked who decides whether force is justified. The person acting is responsible before God for that decision, and yes, human judgment can be wrong. That is why force should be used to stop a threat, not to punish someone or get even.
On the subject of the use of force, in Luke 3:14 John the Baptist said " And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.", do you consider this call to "Do violence to no man" as specific to these soldiers or is a more general teaching?.
Concerning Luke 4 and governments, I do not believe that passage means every government and every act of government belongs to Satan. Scripture also says, “The powers that be are ordained of God” (Romans 13:1), and civil authority is described as bearing the sword against evildoers in Romans 13:4.
Interesting, heres the passage from Luke 4: 5-8, "
5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.", scripture clearly says "ALL the Kingdoms of this World", and "ALL this power will i give thee", that implies to me that Satan has full control over ALL the Kingdoms of this world, why do you believe differently?. I readily admit that there is much i am unsure of, and where there is an apparent contradiction in Scripture i put it down to my ignorance, but as a Christian, a follower of Christ, i always try to follow his teachings where there is a seeming conflict, and looking around this world its not hard to see the truth of his words, Governments are driven in the main by self interest and Compassion and Justice are hard to find.
That does not justify Hitler, Stalin, Rwanda, or any other evil regime. When government becomes evil, Acts 5:29 still applies: “We ought to obey God rather than men.”
Agreed, although i would add as ive said i see ALL Governments as Fundamentally Evil.
You also asked about Matthew 26:52, “all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.” Peter was using the sword to stop the arrest and crucifixion that Christ had already said must happen. Jesus immediately explained that the Scriptures had to be fulfilled (Matthew 26:53-54). I see that as a warning against living by violence, not a statement that every use of force under every circumstance is sinful.
Yes i can see that, i suppose it centres on how we interpret "taking the sword", i see it more as when someone picks up that "Sword", or commits any act of violence, you see it more as someone who "Lives by violence".
You specifically asked for a Gospel reference supporting my statement that loving our enemies does not mean allowing innocent people to be harmed. I agree with you that loving our enemies means far more than simply not hating them. Jesus said: “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them” (Matthew 5:44). But I do not see anywhere in the Gospels where loving an attacker means allowing him to murder another person.
I was thinking about Christs words" Do not resist evil" and whether that applies to all situations, not just as you believe personal vengeance, i doubt if i could stand by and watch an innocent murdered or abused if i had the means to stop it, in the Rwanda genocide of 1994, and many times since ive called for robust action to stop the killers, but thats my human side , what i'm concerned with, is how as a Christian i should be acting.
Jesus said, “The good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep” (John 10:11), and contrasted that with the hireling who sees danger and runs away (John 10:12-13). He also said, “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13). Those passages do not specifically authorize firearms or lethal force, and I would not claim that they do. But they do show that love can require us to put ourselves between danger and the person being harmed.
Is that act of "giving your life" or "Laying down your life" an act of resistance, or is it more an act of Sacrifice?, we are told to "Deny ourselves, take up our Cross and follow where Christ led", did Christ resist evil or did he willingly lay down his life and shed his blood for our sins, was that resistance or Sacrifice?.
That is the distinction I am making. Stopping someone from murdering an innocent person is not the same thing as hating that person or seeking revenge against him. Could someone use force and still have love for the attacker? I believe so. The objective should not be, “I want to kill this person.” It should be, “I have to stop this person from killing someone.” If the threat can be stopped without taking a life, that is obviously preferable.
That may be possible, but given human nature, given my nature, i wouldnt want to have it tested. To love an attacker, to love an abuser while physically stopping them from committing evil , i truly dont know. Loving them is so hard, but when violence is thrown into the mix as well, ....
If innocent people are in immediate danger, Scripture does not teach that we must simply stand by and let them be killed when we have the ability to help. Nehemiah gives a clear example. When the people were threatened with attack, he told them, “fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses” (Nehemiah 4:14). The people continued their work while keeping weapons ready for defense (Nehemiah 4:17-18). That does not justify revenge, hatred, or unnecessary violence. But it does show that Scripture does not condemn being armed or using force to defend your family or other innocent people from an immediate threat.
I understand that in the OT the use of force was much more widespread and in some cases ordained by God, but what i'm trying to work out is ,does that same principle still apply to Christs teachings, and its only through discussions such as these that our questions and beliefs are tested in the hope that the truth may prevail.
That is why I do not believe we should make absolute pacifism a command where Scripture does not clearly make it one.
And I disagree that a Christian with Christ’s love would never own a gun. Scripture never makes weapon ownership a test of Christian love. The Bible condemns murder, hatred, vengeance, and wrongful violence. It does not condemn simply owning a weapon.
Perhaps i should have said, "using a gun", or any weapon, or any violence, i am only too aware of the capacity of Humanity for Evil, if we take the last world war for example, perhaps as clear a case as any of "Good" fighting "Evil", but the war ended with the Allies bombing the German city of Dresden killing thousands of civilians in the resultant firestorm and the bombing of Tokoyo which killed over 100,000 civilians and the atom bombs dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Perhaps this is why Christ spoke of "Do not resist evil" because he knows our hearts and that our good intentions can so easily dissolve into a morass of vengeance and hatred.
Where I think we agree is this: politics should not decide the issue. Scripture should.
If Scripture condemns something, we should condemn it. If Scripture permits something, we should not forbid it. And where Scripture does not give a specific command, we should be careful not to create one ourselves.
Totally agree, and thats what i'm trying to understand in relation to Christs teaching on violence, of how to build my life on the firm rock of his truth and not my own sinful preferences and prejudices.
