A. Christian
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I am sorry but I am a little confused as to what you are saying so allow me to ask a question.
Are you justified by the Torah? Or grace through faith and not of works?
What is a Christian?
- Thread starter B-A-C
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Are you justified by the Torah? Or grace through faith and not of works?
Dave M
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Brother I came on here this morning to ask the very question to this man. I would like to add I have seen @bibleguy on here for some time and he zelous for the law of the torah, so I would like to ask bibleguy if he has ever read the book of Galatains?? I would beg @bibleguy to read this book, even fast before reading it and pray to God to open your eyes
@bibleguy do you consider the law to be a curse?
Margaux
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I love Jesus , and I want to see Him when I leave the earth . I am so glad to see the passion in everyone in this blog , the love for Him just pours out.
"Humility " , "Obedience" coupled with Faith , God's Wisdom and His Understanding is a prerequisite , Walking in His Counsel and His Might is so important. The Fear of the Lord that lives within us should drive us . More anointing of the " Holy Spirit " to be upon us is what we need to ask of Him daily. The Torah's teaching is incredible , The prophecies are just amazing! The Torah was a shadow of better things to come . The New Testament teaches us how to follow Jesus and how we need to forgive., how we need to love unconditionally , and how to have an intimate relationship with " The Holy Spirit " who leads us, teaches us, instructs us and guides us with His loving Eye. In addition , It also teaches us that we need to : "put on Christ" daily to crucify the sinful nature , The virtue " love " is an addition and we need to ask the Holy Spirit to teach us how to love in all circumstances as this is the " bond of His perfection" . We are just so privileged that God chose us . "God does not call the qualified , He qualifies those whom He calls" .
Thanks for all of the Scriptures and all the responses , you are all amazing people of our Holy God and faithful followers of Jesus Christ .
All Glory be to God. :grin:
"Humility " , "Obedience" coupled with Faith , God's Wisdom and His Understanding is a prerequisite , Walking in His Counsel and His Might is so important. The Fear of the Lord that lives within us should drive us . More anointing of the " Holy Spirit " to be upon us is what we need to ask of Him daily. The Torah's teaching is incredible , The prophecies are just amazing! The Torah was a shadow of better things to come . The New Testament teaches us how to follow Jesus and how we need to forgive., how we need to love unconditionally , and how to have an intimate relationship with " The Holy Spirit " who leads us, teaches us, instructs us and guides us with His loving Eye. In addition , It also teaches us that we need to : "put on Christ" daily to crucify the sinful nature , The virtue " love " is an addition and we need to ask the Holy Spirit to teach us how to love in all circumstances as this is the " bond of His perfection" . We are just so privileged that God chose us . "God does not call the qualified , He qualifies those whom He calls" .
Thanks for all of the Scriptures and all the responses , you are all amazing people of our Holy God and faithful followers of Jesus Christ .
All Glory be to God. :grin:
Brother-Paul
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All Glory be to God sister.
Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
In Jesus Precious Name, Amen
Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
In Jesus Precious Name, Amen
bibleguy
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Thanks for bringing this up!
1. Mt. 22:37 applies Dt. 6 to us.
2. Dt. 6, in context, requires ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25).
3. Jesus applies all Torah to us (from 1 and 2).
You see, "HANG" does not mean "replace, abolish, terminate, cancel, substitute".
Rather, when we choose to love God (Dt.6:4-5), we choose to obey ALL God's commands (Dt. 6:25).
Same thing in 1Jn.5:3. We prove our love by obeying ALL God's commands.
And where are God's commands found? The written Torah of Moses! (1Ki.2:3).
Paul applies ALL Torah to us (2Ti.3:16), not merely the "LOVE" commands.
blessings...
@bibleguy -- you're right in 2 Tim 3:16 in that All Scripture has been inspired and is profitable in all those areas.
The Matthew 22 passage -- Jesus was talking with the Sadduccess and has silenced them -- so the Pharisees got into the picture and was challenging Jesus about what is the Most Important of the Laws to follow -- Jesus Christ was telling them that the Most Important of the commands was To Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul and then to love your neighbor as yourself. When a person Does that , they will Be obeying God.
Following all the Ten Commandments Does Not Save Anyone. Because it's impossible To do all of them all the time.
Jesus Christ Is the Risen Savior -- Christianity is the relationship with God that is available to all who accept it through Jesus Christ. It's not a list of do's and don'ts -- It's Wanting to do God's Will in your life.
The Matthew 22 passage -- Jesus was talking with the Sadduccess and has silenced them -- so the Pharisees got into the picture and was challenging Jesus about what is the Most Important of the Laws to follow -- Jesus Christ was telling them that the Most Important of the commands was To Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul and then to love your neighbor as yourself. When a person Does that , they will Be obeying God.
Following all the Ten Commandments Does Not Save Anyone. Because it's impossible To do all of them all the time.
Jesus Christ Is the Risen Savior -- Christianity is the relationship with God that is available to all who accept it through Jesus Christ. It's not a list of do's and don'ts -- It's Wanting to do God's Will in your life.
Dave M
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You know Paul actually had to scold Peter in front of everyone, because he was being two faced to the gentiles, the Jews were very confused and thought they had to keep the law, and Peter instead of boldly speaking up went along with them and ignored the gentiles who knew nothing of the law
Galatians 2:14–16
14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
Justified by Faith
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified2 by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Galatians 2:14–16
14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
Justified by Faith
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified2 by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Dave M
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The law is a curse, Jesus has lifted the curse.
Galatians 3 -10,,14
10All who rely on works of the Law are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11And it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” 12The Law, however, is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”… 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.…
Galatians 3 -10,,14
10All who rely on works of the Law are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11And it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” 12The Law, however, is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”… 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.…
Dave M
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Purpose of the law, so we understand why the law existed
Galatians 3 -22,25
…19Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the seed to whom the promise referred. It was administered through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator is unnecessary, however, if there is only one party ; but God is one. 21Is the law, then, opposed to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come from the law. 22But the Scripture pronounces all things confined by sin, so that by faith in Jesus Christ the promise might be given to those who believe. 23Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the Law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
Galatians 3 -22,25
…19Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the seed to whom the promise referred. It was administered through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator is unnecessary, however, if there is only one party ; but God is one. 21Is the law, then, opposed to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come from the law. 22But the Scripture pronounces all things confined by sin, so that by faith in Jesus Christ the promise might be given to those who believe. 23Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the Law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
A. Christian
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Who are we proving our love for God to? God? My God already knows whether we love him or not what proof does he need?
But still you have not answered my question. Are you justified by the Torah or by grace through faith and not of works?
I mean you do not have to answer my question. But you kind of sound like some of the false teachers that Paul warns the Galatians about with your extremely heavy emphasis on the Torah. The Torah says that I need to be circumcised. Do I have to keep that Law?
Brother-Paul
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There are many who believe and preach, that the Law is not applicable today, replacing the Law with 'We are Saved by Grace through Faith'
We are Saved by Grace through Faith, but I believe the Law or some of the Law still applies today and will until Jesus Returns and the devil is conquered.
I therefore would like to add my penneth if I may please. That we may learn the Truth in The Word together. I welcome all comments.
I have for some time found it frustrating regarding the statement, we are saved by Grace through Faith, and that the Law no longer applies, I continue praying, collecting scripture and assessing, this is where I feel I am now...
I start with The Sermon on the Mount...
Jesus was a Jew, the scribes and Pharisees were Jews, here in The Sermon on the Mount, Jesus corrects their wrong thinking,
but they thought he was condemning The Law and the Prophets...
Matthew 5:17-20 (NKJV)
First Jesus clarifies their concerns...
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
and then he reassured them by saying...
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
He then warns of breaking even the least of the commandments, and teaching men to do so, which is used as a further reassurance to them...
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;
but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus includes here The Law and the prophets, the Law being the first 5 books in the Old Testament, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.
The prophets were commentators upon the law, and both together made up that rule of faith and practice which Christ found upon the throne in the Jewish church, and here he keeps it on the throne.
All the prophets in the OT are o be included, they were God's spiritually led spokespeople, everything they have said is to be included, large or small prophets, it doesn't matter all are included, everything the prophets said, written in the OT, are included with the Law, therefore encompassing all of the OT.
The OT is a reflection of the New, therefore when our brother @bibleguy adds the following NT verses ,it is clear I think, that it is encompassing the NT with the OT.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Can the Law save us. No
Is the Law relevant today, I believe it is.
Are we saved by Grace through Faith. Yes
Does this negate the Law. No.
Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. Yes, he said so himself
So if He fulfilled it, surely it is no longer applicable. Not so.
Matt 5:18
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away,
one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law
till all is fulfilled.
The Law, was given to Moses, to the Jews, it was not given to provide life but was given to 'reveal sin' and to prepare the way for 'Christ'
No where in scripture does is say Jesus destroyed the Law or make it invalid in any way.
Jesus came to fulfill the true meaning and purpose of the Law and the Prophets.
Many say Jesus fulfilled the law, so we are now saved by grace, full stop! Can that be right, I think not.
Some quote, Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23–25; Ephesians 2:15, and say Christians are to obey the Law of Christ, not the law for the Jews.
But this is not what Jesus says,
It all comes back to SIN.
Romans 1:18-32 The Gentile world is guilty
Romans 2:1-3, 8 The Jewish world is guilty
Romans 3:9-20 The Whole World is guilty
Romans 5:17-18
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Galatians 5:14
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall LOVE your neighbor as yourself.”
Matthew 22:34-40
34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.
35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying,
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall LOVE the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'You shall LOVE your neighbor as yourself.'
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
EVERYTHING in the Law and the Prophets hangs on these two commandments
Does that say the Law is Void? No
EVERYTHING in the Law and the Prophets 'hangs on'
- LOVING the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
- LOVING our Neighbour as ourselves.
If we LOVE the Lord first, 'His LOVE' is in us, 'His LOVE' is agape Love, Divine Love, 'His LOVE' is hesed Love, steadfast Love.
1 - We will have no other God before me.
2 - We shall not make or worship idols.
3 - We shall not take the Lord's Name in vain.
With His Love in our hearts, we will Love our neighbour as ourselves.
If we love our neighbour as ourself, with the love from God when Jesus abides in us and us in Him, we will
5 - We shall honour our father and our mother
6 - We shall not murder
God is light and in him is no darkness, SIN obscures us from the Truth in the Word, SIN veils us from the Truth.
Romans 3:21-26 (NKJV)
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the SINS that were previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
NOTE: But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, this doesn't mean not apply, it doesn't mean void.
The Law reveals sin / LOVE / We are saved by Grace and Truth
LOVE separates the two but does not remove either.
They are set apart by LOVE
Take away the Law and sin is not revealed, take away Grace and Truth we cannot be saved from our Sins!
Without the removal of sin, shown to us in the Law, we cannot experience righteousness.
Matthew 5:20
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven
I believe the Law and the Prophets are applicable now, as Jesus states,
Firstly - The Law reveals our Sins
Secondly - We are saved by God's Grace, through our Faith, through the cross, through the blood of Christ, through our Faith, through our prayers, through Jesus Christ our Lord, Our Saviour, the Intercessor of all prayers.
SIN is revealed through the Law -
Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
LAW will remain until Christ's return and the devil is defeated - till all is fulfilled
Matthew 5:18
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Matthew 22:37-40
37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall LOVE the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'You shall LOVE your neighbor as yourself.'
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
We are Saved by Grace through Faith, but I believe the Law or some of the Law still applies today and will until Jesus Returns and the devil is conquered.
I therefore would like to add my penneth if I may please. That we may learn the Truth in The Word together. I welcome all comments.
I have for some time found it frustrating regarding the statement, we are saved by Grace through Faith, and that the Law no longer applies, I continue praying, collecting scripture and assessing, this is where I feel I am now...
I start with The Sermon on the Mount...
Jesus was a Jew, the scribes and Pharisees were Jews, here in The Sermon on the Mount, Jesus corrects their wrong thinking,
but they thought he was condemning The Law and the Prophets...
Matthew 5:17-20 (NKJV)
First Jesus clarifies their concerns...
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
and then he reassured them by saying...
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
He then warns of breaking even the least of the commandments, and teaching men to do so, which is used as a further reassurance to them...
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;
but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus includes here The Law and the prophets, the Law being the first 5 books in the Old Testament, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.
The prophets were commentators upon the law, and both together made up that rule of faith and practice which Christ found upon the throne in the Jewish church, and here he keeps it on the throne.
All the prophets in the OT are o be included, they were God's spiritually led spokespeople, everything they have said is to be included, large or small prophets, it doesn't matter all are included, everything the prophets said, written in the OT, are included with the Law, therefore encompassing all of the OT.
The OT is a reflection of the New, therefore when our brother @bibleguy adds the following NT verses ,it is clear I think, that it is encompassing the NT with the OT.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Can the Law save us. No
Is the Law relevant today, I believe it is.
Are we saved by Grace through Faith. Yes
Does this negate the Law. No.
Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. Yes, he said so himself
So if He fulfilled it, surely it is no longer applicable. Not so.
Matt 5:18
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away,
one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law
till all is fulfilled.
The Law, was given to Moses, to the Jews, it was not given to provide life but was given to 'reveal sin' and to prepare the way for 'Christ'
No where in scripture does is say Jesus destroyed the Law or make it invalid in any way.
Jesus came to fulfill the true meaning and purpose of the Law and the Prophets.
Many say Jesus fulfilled the law, so we are now saved by grace, full stop! Can that be right, I think not.
Some quote, Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23–25; Ephesians 2:15, and say Christians are to obey the Law of Christ, not the law for the Jews.
But this is not what Jesus says,
It all comes back to SIN.
Romans 1:18-32 The Gentile world is guilty
Romans 2:1-3, 8 The Jewish world is guilty
Romans 3:9-20 The Whole World is guilty
Romans 5:17-18
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Galatians 5:14
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall LOVE your neighbor as yourself.”
Matthew 22:34-40
34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.
35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying,
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall LOVE the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'You shall LOVE your neighbor as yourself.'
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
EVERYTHING in the Law and the Prophets hangs on these two commandments
Does that say the Law is Void? No
EVERYTHING in the Law and the Prophets 'hangs on'
- LOVING the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
- LOVING our Neighbour as ourselves.
If we LOVE the Lord first, 'His LOVE' is in us, 'His LOVE' is agape Love, Divine Love, 'His LOVE' is hesed Love, steadfast Love.
1 - We will have no other God before me.
2 - We shall not make or worship idols.
3 - We shall not take the Lord's Name in vain.
With His Love in our hearts, we will Love our neighbour as ourselves.
If we love our neighbour as ourself, with the love from God when Jesus abides in us and us in Him, we will
5 - We shall honour our father and our mother
6 - We shall not murder
- 7 - We shall not commit adultery
- 8 - We shall not steal
- 9 - We shall not bear false witness
- We shall obey God's Commands, we shall not carry out that which is forbid
- homosexuality and lesbianism, sex with any one or anything except the sex God planned, in marriage, for husband and wife, each loving and caring for one another, according to God's Word.
God is light and in him is no darkness, SIN obscures us from the Truth in the Word, SIN veils us from the Truth.
Romans 3:21-26 (NKJV)
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the SINS that were previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
NOTE: But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, this doesn't mean not apply, it doesn't mean void.
The Law reveals sin / LOVE / We are saved by Grace and Truth
LOVE separates the two but does not remove either.
They are set apart by LOVE
Take away the Law and sin is not revealed, take away Grace and Truth we cannot be saved from our Sins!
Without the removal of sin, shown to us in the Law, we cannot experience righteousness.
Matthew 5:20
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven
I believe the Law and the Prophets are applicable now, as Jesus states,
Firstly - The Law reveals our Sins
Secondly - We are saved by God's Grace, through our Faith, through the cross, through the blood of Christ, through our Faith, through our prayers, through Jesus Christ our Lord, Our Saviour, the Intercessor of all prayers.
SIN is revealed through the Law -
Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
LAW will remain until Christ's return and the devil is defeated - till all is fulfilled
Matthew 5:18
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Matthew 22:37-40
37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall LOVE the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'You shall LOVE your neighbor as yourself.'
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
A. Christian
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Thanks, you have made it quite clear to all of us where you stand.
A. Christian
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I see who you are
I agree while we have been grafted into the same tree we are not Israel
Brother-Paul
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Greeting Sue
We are grafted into 'the root stock' that is much more than being grafted into the tree.
It is very important scripture as it puts out thoughts right with God, it tells us where we come from, it tells us the foundation of our faith and where it comes from, it joins us by grafting us in to the root stock.
The root stock feeds us, we do not support the root, the root supports us. If it wasn't for the root stock there would be no life for us.
The following scripture is always best read in full, it is also important for the Christian to read this and also read John 15 in full.
Romans 11:11-27 (NKJV)
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
Bless you sister, the above is added so as to be clear to all readers.
Bless you.
bibleguy
Member
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2018
- Messages
- 234
Hi there!
The church (Gr. "ἐκκλησία") is ISRAEL (see "ἐκκλησία" in, for example, Ac.7:38 and Dt. 4:10 in reference to ISRAEL).
The olive tree (Rom.11) is ISRAEL (Jer.11:16). Thus, grafted-in Gentiles are included in ISRAEL.
Christians partake in the New Covenant. Thus, we are ISRAELITES (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).
Christians should obey all Torah (2Ti.3:16). Torah is for ISRAEL (Mal.4:4). Thus, Christians are ISRAELITES.
The land of Israel is promised to Israel. Christians share in that promise (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29). Thus, Christians are ISRAELITES.
These are all reasons why the RCC is wrong, by the way.
blessings...
WesleyJordan
Member
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2019
- Messages
- 23
I think what he means is this: what Israel was to God in the Old Testament — a people he called His, now We(the Church) today are to God what Israel used to be to God, we can be called the true Israel of God, because now WE are His people.
Now, it has nothing to do with the physical, has nothing to do with being a Jew vs. a Gentile. Israel was a physical kingdom. But the kingdom of God, the new kingdom that Jesus came proclaiming, this is a spiritual kingdom. Jesus wanted to fill it with people of faith. He isn’t worried about physical things like nationalities or race. He simply wants to live among a people that will actually truly love him and obey him. Israel struggled with loving and obeying him despite him being physically manifest in the Sinai desert, and God wanted better, so he decided to make Faith the thing that was required to enter his kingdom.
Satan can do all he wants down here on earth to the physical kingdoms present, but a spiritual kingdom? Never before has happened, and neither does Satan have any power over it. That’s why it’s so important for us to want to enter into that kingdom.
