What would of happen if the Jews did not Reject Jesus?

[KingJ]

Why is it a necessity with God to know that we are capable Of that. Sounds like we have to prove ourselves to God? As in -- are we really worthy of Him -- of His love? Wouldn't that be a 'good works' based salvation?

Hi Sue

I would not call it a works based salvation, but a necessity to prove ourselves, sure. Definitely.

Jesus says this in verse 25, Matt 16:25 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. .

We need to ''lose our lives''. Prior to the rapture, this will very likely not result in actual death for many of us. But rest assured, God only grafts those into the vine that He knows would be able to be a martyr for Him.

This is why there is ''zero'' beating around the bush after the rapture. The requirement to come to God is literally, death Rev 2:10.

But we Might be put in the position to be willing to die for the name of Jesus Christ. But what about those who won't ever be put in that position. Are we any less deserving

This definitely makes for an interesting discussion. I would say the depth of intent for God needed for someone in the tribulation to endure ten days of torture and then death, is a depth of intent God looks for in us when we repent of sins / make a decision to follow Jesus.

Wouldn't that be a 'good works' based salvation?

Depth of intent is the criteria for salvation, not works. Works based salvation proposes that one-day when you stand before God, you hope that all the good works you did outweigh the bad. Judged on the heart and depth of intent, God can grasp as He did with the criminal next to Jesus on the cross, that given the opportunity, the criminal who accepted Jesus would have made right all his wrongs, done many good works and easily been a martyr for Jesus.

 

[Reba1]

Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[KingJ]

Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Grace is what gets an airplane to heaven. You and I need to get to the airport to board the airplane.

God does not take you from your house and force you to the airport.

Matt 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

Saving faith is faith given by God. God only gives this faith to those who pass His test of heart and mind. Jer 17:9-11, 1 Cor 12:3, James 4:8.

 

[Sue D.]

@KingJ -- Jeremiah 17:9-11 " The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? I, the Lord, search the heart; I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.
vs 11 "As a partridge that broods but does not hatch, so is he who gets riches, but not by right; It will leave him the the midst of his days, And at his end he will be a fool."

1 Cor. 12:3 "Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. "

James 4:8 "Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded."

Those are the passages you listed.

your comment "God only gives this faith to those who pass His test of heart and mind'. That comment suggests a salvation that is earned -- the need to pass His test. That suggests that a person Might be good enough to Pass His test. A good-works based salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 ".....not of works..... lest any man should boast...."

Sounds like you're equating 'grace' with good works?!

 

[KingJ]

@KingJ -- Jeremiah 17:9-11 " The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? I, the Lord, search the heart; I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.
vs 11 "As a partridge that broods but does not hatch, so is he who gets riches, but not by right; It will leave him the the midst of his days, And at his end he will be a fool."

1 Cor. 12:3 "Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. "

James 4:8 "Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded."

Those are the passages you listed.

your comment "God only gives this faith to those who pass His test of heart and mind'. That comment suggests a salvation that is earned -- the need to pass His test. That suggests that a person Might be good enough to Pass His test. A good-works based salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 ".....not of works..... lest any man should boast...."

Sounds like you're equating 'grace' with good works?!

Important to understand that salvation and repentance are unrelated events and neither have anything whatsoever to do with works.

Repentance = true repentance on our part Psalm 51:17. God judges this, note this part of Jer 17 ''I, the Lord, search the heart; I test the mind,''. IE When we repent, God searches our heart and mind, for sincerity. We know that in the tribulation period unless someone dies for God they will not be saved Rev 2:10. So, terribly sorry for anyone who thought saying magical words got them saved.

Salvation = Once we pass the test of heart and mind, Jesus comes to live in our heart Rev 3:20, washes us clean of sin and the Holy Spirit gives us a revelation of Jesus being Lord 1 Cor 12:3.

Works = continued repentance, salvation process. This is all nonsense. On one hand it is good to practice continual repentance. It is good and Paul would argue necessary to continually examine ourselves to ensure we are in His flock Phil 2:12. But a Christian knows they are saved, OSAS is true 2 Cor 3:15. Paul's concern is that many think they are saved when they are not.

The second part of James 4:8 looks like it is speaking to works, but it is not. It is speaking to stopping what is wicked. Hating it. Repenting.

We cannot earn salvation, but salvation does not fall on our laps. It is like an airplane that leaves the airport for heaven. We need to get to the airport. There is no such thing as an airplane fetching us from our house and taking us to the airport. When we are at the airport, there is no airplane that takes us to heaven except for Jesus. We can flap our arms all day long, we going nowhere. That is where works matter naught. One more thing to consider is that, there is a difference between people who get to the airport and those that don't. In the OT before Jesus, this is why there was a separation in Hades with Abraham's bosom.

The grace of God is that He forgives the whomsoever come to Him John 3:16. We must never confuse 'coming to Him' with a works based salvation. We should not come to Him to inherit heaven. We should come to Him because we love Him. We love Him by hating what is evil and clinging to what is good Rom 12:9.

 

[complete]

Important to understand that salvation and repentance are unrelated events and neither have anything whatsoever to do with works.

Repentance = true repentance on our part Psalm 51:17. God judges this, note this part of Jer 17 ''I, the Lord, search the heart; I test the mind,''. IE When we repent, God searches our heart and mind, for sincerity. We know that in the tribulation period unless someone dies for God they will not be saved Rev 2:10. So, terribly sorry for anyone who thought saying magical words got them saved.

Salvation = Once we pass the test of heart and mind, Jesus comes to live in our heart Rev 3:20, washes us clean of sin and the Holy Spirit gives us a revelation of Jesus being Lord 1 Cor 12:3.

Works = continued repentance, salvation process. This is all nonsense. On one hand it is good to practice continual repentance. It is good and Paul would argue necessary to continually examine ourselves to ensure we are in His flock Phil 2:12. But a Christian knows they are saved, OSAS is true 2 Cor 3:15. Paul's concern is that many think they are saved when they are not.

The second part of James 4:8 looks like it is speaking to works, but it is not. It is speaking to stopping what is wicked. Hating it. Repenting.

We cannot earn salvation, but salvation does not fall on our laps. It is like an airplane that leaves the airport for heaven. We need to get to the airport. There is no such thing as an airplane fetching us from our house and taking us to the airport. When we are at the airport, there is no airplane that takes us to heaven except for Jesus. We can flap our arms all day long, we going nowhere. That is where works matter naught. One more thing to consider is that, there is a difference between people who get to the airport and those that don't. In the OT before Jesus, this is why there was a separation in Hades with Abraham's bosom.

The grace of God is that He forgives the whomsoever come to Him John 3:16. We must never confuse 'coming to Him' with a works based salvation. We should not come to Him to inherit heaven. We should come to Him because we love Him. We love Him by hating what is evil and clinging to what is good Rom 12:9.

'So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.'
(Rom 10:17)

Hello KingJ,

Your reasoning destroys the wonder of the Grace of God, that saves to the uttermost those who come unto Him for salvation through faith in the all-sufficient sacrifice of His Beloved son. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself (2 Corinthians 5:19). The means of reconciliation to God, is by faith in the One Whom He has sent (John 6:29).

In my own case, I came to realise my need of a Saviour at the age of twelve years, way back in 1960. I heard the word of God preached, and believed that I had sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), and that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). I heard and believed also that God had provided a means of salvation whereby I could be saved from the penalty of sin (Romans 5:10), and be reconciled to Him (2 Corinthians 5:20). That means was by the death and resurrection of His own Beloved Son, the Lord Jesus Christ . If I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour then I would receive forgiveness of sins (Ephesians 1:7), and the hope of life eternal (1 John 2:25), which is God's gift to those who put their trust in Him (Romans 6:23). I believed and received Him as my Saviour that day, and the gift of His righteousness was imputed to me (Romans 4:23-24). I was reconciled to God, and the work of conforming me to the image of His Son began in me (Romans 8:29), to the glory of His grace (Ephesians 2:8-9). I can say with David, 'I shall be satisfied when I awake ( in resurrection ) with His likeness'. We are His workmanship.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Sue D.]

@KingJ -- Your definition of salvation -- there is no test to pass regarding either our heart or mind -- you listed Revelation 3:20 "Behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." That is Jesus Christ knocking at our hearts door -- He is calling to us waiting for us to open the door of our heart. It is Then, that He Will come in / the Holy Spirit will indwell us immediately and He gives us that inner peace that we know we are born again. There is no test that's being passed or failed.

Well -- salvation is being saved From ending up in lake of fire and brimstone for eternity. Salvation is Also the inner peace that everyone really is looking for. Salvation is Also the desire to read God's Word and obey Him. Growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. Salvation is Also the desire to share with others what Jesus Christ has done on the cross for them / us.

 

[KingJ]

'So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.'
(Rom 10:17)

Hello KingJ,

Your reasoning destroys the wonder of the Grace of God, that saves to the uttermost those who come unto Him for salvation through faith in the all-sufficient sacrifice of His Beloved son. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself (2 Corinthians 5:19). The means of reconciliation to God, is by faith in the One Whom He has sent (John 6:29).

If you think my post mocks the grace of God I want to propose to you that your understanding of Christian faith needs to improve.

The underlined from you for example. You have altered the scripture. John 6:29 says, ''the work of God is this: to believe in the one whom He sent''. Not ''the means of reconciliation''. Why would you do that?

We can believe the unseen is seen all day, all year, all lifetime long and still not be saved. The devils believe James 2:19 and are destined for the lake of fire.

Faith is a delicate topic in Christianity and needs to be properly taught.

Knowing Jesus is Lord is a privilege as this can only happen via the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3. It only happens after we repent and pass a session of His judgement of heart and mind Jer 17:9-11. As we know that not all who believe in Him are saved Matt 7:22.

 

[KingJ]

In my own case, I came to realise my need of a Saviour at the age of twelve years, way back in 1960. I heard the word of God preached, and believed that I had sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), and that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). I heard and believed also that God had provided a means of salvation whereby I could be saved from the penalty of sin (Romans 5:10), and be reconciled to Him (2 Corinthians 5:20). That means was by the death and resurrection of His own Beloved Son, the Lord Jesus Christ . If I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour then I would receive forgiveness of sins (Ephesians 1:7), and the hope of life eternal (1 John 2:25), which is God's gift to those who put their trust in Him (Romans 6:23). I believed and received Him as my Saviour that day, and the gift of His righteousness was imputed to me (Romans 4:23-24). I was reconciled to God, and the work of conforming me to the image of His Son began in me (Romans 8:29), to the glory of His grace (Ephesians 2:8-9). I can say with David, 'I shall be satisfied when I awake ( in resurrection ) with His likeness'. We are His workmanship.

Having read this, I don't doubt you are saved. You just not properly communicating / teaching the subject of faith.

Take the underlined for example. It is not ''your'' belief in Jesus that resulted in you receiving forgiveness. You and I are given faith in Jesus Rom 12:3. Evidence of being a Christian is having a real faith in Jesus being Lord.

As a Christian we place our faith in Jesus. Before we are a Christian we need to be given faith that a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago is God and His death can save us from sin.

Consider Peter in Matt 16:16-17. Peter had more ''faith'' in the power of God then any other disciple. He was the only one to walk on water. Yet, he needed a revelation from God on who Jesus was. He got this, not because he had faith to walk on water. He got it because his heart was after God's. He approved of what Jesus taught and stood for.

There is faith in faith, there is faith in God's existence, there is faith in God being able to do anything, there is faith in unicorns too. It is only faith in Jesus being Lord that has any value with respect to heaven and this faith is given ONLY by the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3 NOBODY calls Jesus Lord, except by the Holy Spirit.

I could argue that with your understanding of faith, Judas would have qualified for heaven.

 

[complete]

If you think my post mocks the grace of God I want to propose to you that your understanding of Christian faith needs to improve.

The underlined from you for example. You have altered the scripture. John 6:29 says, ''the work of God is this: to believe in the one whom He sent''. Not ''the means of reconciliation''. Why would you do that?

We can believe the unseen is seen all day, all year, all lifetime long and still not be saved. The devils believe James 2:19 and are destined for the lake of fire.

Faith is a delicate topic in Christianity and needs to be properly taught.

Knowing Jesus is Lord is a privilege as this can only happen via the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3. It only happens after we repent and pass a session of His judgement of heart and mind Jer 17:9-11. As we know that not all who believe in Him are saved Matt 7:22.

'Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God,
that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.'
(Joh 6:29)

Hello @KingJ,

I did not alter scripture in regard to John 6:29, for I did not quote it but referred to it, for it states that the Lord Jesus Christ is the One Whom God has sent, and that He requires that we should believe on Him. It is only through faith in Him that we can be reconciled to God. Believing on Him is the only 'work' that is required of us for our reconciliation to God to be secured.

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Having read this, I don't doubt you are saved. You just not properly communicating / teaching the subject of faith.

Take the underlined for example. It is not ''your'' belief in Jesus that resulted in you receiving forgiveness. You and I are given faith in Jesus Rom 12:3. Evidence of being a Christian is having a real faith in Jesus being Lord.

As a Christian we place our faith in Jesus. Before we are a Christian we need to be given faith that a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago is God and His death can save us from sin.

Consider Peter in Matt 16:16-17. Peter had more ''faith'' in the power of God then any other disciple. He was the only one to walk on water. Yet, he needed a revelation from God on who Jesus was. He got this, not because he had faith to walk on water. He got it because his heart was after God's. He approved of what Jesus taught and stood for.

There is faith in faith, there is faith in God's existence, there is faith in God being able to do anything, there is faith in unicorns too. It is only faith in Jesus being Lord that has any value with respect to heaven and this faith is given ONLY by the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3 NOBODY calls Jesus Lord, except by the Holy Spirit.

I could argue that with your understanding of faith, Judas would have qualified for heaven.

Hello @KingJ,

How silly your concluding sentence is. You should refrain from such pointless statements, for it does nothing to encourage further dialogue.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[KingJ]

Hello @KingJ,

How silly your concluding sentence is. You should refrain from such pointless statements, for it does nothing to encourage further dialogue.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

How is it silly? Judas ticks all the requirements you listed for salvation.

 

[Reba1]

All can be forgiven for thinking there is no true free will. Scripture says God is sovereign, omniscient, omnipotent and as you showed there is scripture that talks to hearts being hardened. But a ''Christian'' should know better.

You are saying a Christian should know better then to believe what the Scripture says.

 

[KingJ]

You are saying a Christian should know better then to believe what the Scripture says.

It is all about proper discernment. A lot of scripture speaks to God being omniscient but then there is also scripture that speaks to limited omniscience.

We are on par with the devil, if we portray God as wicked and only teach half truths as he did in Matt 4.

There is scripture that tells us to hang ourselves. Will you lead the way?

 

[Brother-Paul]

What would of happen if the Jews did not Reject Jesus?

they go from proclaiming him to be king

John 12:13
So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying out, “Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!”


to crucify him , mocking him

Luke 23:35-37
And the people stood by, watching, but the rulers scoffed at him, saying, “He saved others; let him save himself, if he is the Christ of God, his Chosen One!” The soldiers also mocked him, coming up and offering him sour wine and saying, “If you are the King of the Jews, save yourself!”

Good question Dave M,

The thing that hits me, is not what if they accepted Yeshua, it is not that they didn't accept Yeshua, it is that God knew they wouldn't accept his only son. Yeshua ha Mashiach.

God knew beforehand, hence he already had plan B

Bless you.

 

[Sue D.]

@ KingJ -- You seem to be the one talking about limited omniscience. Either God has all knowledge or He Doesn't.

God is just and holy.

Taking Scripture in context is very important. It is Key to understanding.

 

[Sue D.]

Good question Dave M,

The thing that hits me, is not what if they accepted Yeshua, it is not that they didn't accept Yeshua, it is that God knew they wouldn't accept his only son. Yeshua ha Mashiach.

God knew beforehand, hence he already had plan B

Bless you.

That Fact is that the Jews did reject Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah. Salvation was extended to the Gentiles -- the rest of us.

And -- Because of God's omniscience , He already knew from the beginning and made provisions by the cross.

Salvation is for the Jews 1st and then, also, for the rest of us.

 

[Brother-Paul]

That Fact is that the Jews did reject Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah. Salvation was extended to the Gentiles -- the rest of us.

And -- Because of God's omniscience , He already knew from the beginning and made provisions by the cross.

Salvation is for the Jews 1st and then, also, for the rest of us.

Spot on Sue

Blessings

 

[KingJ]

@ KingJ -- You seem to be the one talking about limited omniscience. Either God has all knowledge or He Doesn't.

God is just and holy.

Taking Scripture in context is very important. It is Key to understanding.

Can you explain to me how you believe God is just and holy if He has full omniscience on every matter.

 

[KingJ]

That Fact is that the Jews did reject Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah. Salvation was extended to the Gentiles -- the rest of us.

And -- Because of God's omniscience , He already knew from the beginning and made provisions by the cross.

Salvation is for the Jews 1st and then, also, for the rest of us.

God did not need omniscience to know there would be wicked people that would reject and crucify the Messiah.

When you give a highly intelligent creation free will, there being many wicked who would hate righteousness / the most righteous, is an inevitability.

I would say you just need 100 or so IQ.