What would of happen if the Jews did not Reject Jesus?

[KingJ]

@ KingJ -- You simply don't like my response. Apparently you don't like the God of the Bible -- there is no other God. Either you choose to Accept Him / God/ as He is or you don't.
You want to remake God , partially , at least, to a God who is more acceptable to you.

You just don't understand God as the prophets did. A Christian should.

When scripture says God is righteous in ALL His ways Psalm 145:17. What does this mean to you?

 

[KingJ]

I understand what you are saying, but I don't concur with your conclusion.

You say God is and must be limited, I agree, but not as you suggest. God is absolutely righteous and cannot be unrighteous. God does not lie and is the embodiment of absolute truth. God is not able to deny HIMSELF. God cannot be tempted with evil. God is no respector of persons. God is all knowing, and therefore knows all things past, present, and future. These are, if you think on them, limitations God attributes to HIMSELF. We can't deny God's attributes.

We do have a free will to do or not to do, and God, who is outside of time and space, knows the decisions we made, make, and will make, and the consequences that flow and will flow from our decisions, whether good or bad. He sees it all, knows it all, and we can never truly grasp how God's eternally fixed plan stands up to our idea of free will.

I'm certainly not going to second guess God, but follow HIM and surrender to HIM. Hmmm, am I doing so of my own free will? The SPIRIT in me guides me. Can I resist good and instead do evil while the SPIRIT indwells me? Sin is evil, and all sin, I just sin less knowing that I am born again.

God is an eternal, infinite, outside of space and time, all knowing God. If we wish to be with HIM we are to seek HIM and to know HIM, but we will not 100% completely know all there is to know about HIM on this side of eternity. Just ask Job.

Blessings

You are getting yourself lost. You need to rewind a bit and focus on the fact that God, in His dealings with us, chooses to operate on ''our'' level.

He says we know good and evil as He does in Gen 3:22.

Did God '''have'''' to send Jesus to the cross? Surely a truly omnipotent and omniscient God did not ''''have'''' to do such. He could have '''imagined'' it happening, surely. He could have foreseen all of our hearts desires and inevitable actions.

When we look at the ''actual observable facts'' all around us and in scripture, limited omnipotence and limited omniscience in His dealings with us becomes clear.

As such, if we say He does not limit Himself, we are actually mocking the cross. The suffering of Jesus was not real and necessary? To a fully omniscient God, the answer is a resounding 'no'. Or a sick answer, as in 'He still went ahead with it as He wanted to see Jesus suffer....for no reason'.

Meditate on what I am saying. You will see it is sound and true.

One-day when we are in heaven and judge God, the topic of cherry picking as in Calvinism will pop up. God will be 100% beyond reproach, not because He is God, rather because His omniscience is limited by His goodness.

When we draw a picture of God. We cannot use the three omni's as the A-Z definition of Him. He is both omniscient and good, at the same time.

When I married my wife, I had access to read her diary as she places it in her cupboard in our bedroom. Do I? Just because God can do something, does not mean He does. Likewise, just because God can 'know' something, does not mean He does. These are ''our'' inserted assumptions of God as the amount of brain matter between our ears is seriously lacking. A Human cannot grasp God, agreed, but a human can grasp scripture and all the observable evidence. This all points to limited omniscience.

Every single person on this planet will agree that a Creator who knows from birth that a baby will go to hell is wicked and disgusting, not worthy of any praise. This is why Calvinism is not that popular. If we are not Calvinistic, we need a very good explanation of God's omniscience. One the prophets had. Peter ''grasped a truth'' when he said God is impartial in Acts 10:34. A logical mind assumes full omniscience / fake impartiality. A Christian mind renewed by the Holy Spirit should grasp God as Peter and all the prophets did.

 

[JerryfromMass]

You are getting yourself lost. You need to rewind a bit and focus on the fact that God, in His dealings with us, chooses to operate on ''our'' level.

He says we know good and evil as He does in Gen 3:22.

Did God '''have'''' to send Jesus to the cross? Surely a truly omnipotent and omniscient God did not ''''have'''' to do such. He could have '''imagined'' it happening, surely. He could have foreseen all of our hearts desires and inevitable actions.

When we look at the ''actual observable facts'' all around us and in scripture, limited omnipotence and limited omniscience in His dealings with us becomes clear.

As such, if we say He does not limit Himself, we are actually mocking the cross. The suffering of Jesus was not real and necessary? To a fully omniscient God, the answer is a resounding 'no'. Or a sick answer, as in 'He still went ahead with it as He wanted to see Jesus suffer....for no reason'.

Meditate on what I am saying. You will see it is sound and true.

One-day when we are in heaven and judge God, the topic of cherry picking as in Calvinism will pop up. God will be 100% beyond reproach, not because He is God, rather because His omniscience is limited by His goodness.

When we draw a picture of God. We cannot use the three omni's as the A-Z definition of Him. He is both omniscient and good, at the same time.

When I married my wife, I had access to read her diary as she places it in her cupboard in our bedroom. Do I? Just because God can do something, does not mean He does. Likewise, just because God can 'know' something, does not mean He does. These are ''our'' inserted assumptions of God as the amount of brain matter between our ears is seriously lacking. A Human cannot grasp God, agreed, but a human can grasp scripture and all the observable evidence. This all points to limited omniscience.

Every single person on this planet will agree that a Creator who knows from birth that a baby will go to hell is wicked and disgusting, not worthy of any praise. This is why Calvinism is not that popular. If we are not Calvinistic, we need a very good explanation of God's omniscience. One the prophets had. Peter ''grasped a truth'' when he said God is impartial in Acts 10:34. A logical mind assumes full omniscience / fake impartiality. A Christian mind renewed by the Holy Spirit should grasp God as Peter and all the prophets did.

I will not put God in a box as you are willing to do.

HE comes to us and on "our level" and gives us understanding we would not otherwis have but for his grace.

God said in the beginning, the proto evangelium, that Jesus would come and do all that was necessary to bring people back to a right relationship with HIM. As we continue to read the prophets writings, God said Jesus would be "wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." Isaiah 53. The cross was in God's plan? Why? Because God is all knowing.

God can not know something and not be powerful enough as to not do something. To suggest God is not all knowing and is not all powerful is to speak of things that are contrary to God's nature. Since god cannot deny HIMSELF, God will never do anything contrary to HIS nature. You are suggesting that God is wrong about HIMSELF.

When God, in his sovereign authority over all that is HIS, decides to destroy a person (baby, adolescents, teens, adults) HE is exercising HIS sovereign authority to do so, and none of us has a right to tell the creator of all things whst he should or must do with HIS creation. It's all his to do as he pleases.

God is not limited in any way that is contrary to HIS nature, and for you to suggest otherwise is contrary to scripture.

When I get to heaven, I will be silent and speak only when spoken to. I will not be judging God who created me and redeemed me, as you suggest you will be doing, i.e., judging God. HE will be judging me on the Bema seat of Christ. To God be the glory. Amen.

 

[Reba1]

Some folks so wish to be on the same level as God . They dare to judge God by their own unrightous values, bringing Him down to human levels. To the point they choose not to believe God's Word as written. What ever God does, or does not do ,can only be Godly as He is God.

 

[Sue D.]

You are getting yourself lost. You need to rewind a bit and focus on the fact that God, in His dealings with us, chooses to operate on ''our'' level.

He says we know good and evil as He does in Gen 3:22.

Did God '''have'''' to send Jesus to the cross? Surely a truly omnipotent and omniscient God did not ''''have'''' to do such. He could have '''imagined'' it happening, surely. He could have foreseen all of our hearts desires and inevitable actions.

When we look at the ''actual observable facts'' all around us and in scripture, limited omnipotence and limited omniscience in His dealings with us becomes clear.

As such, if we say He does not limit Himself, we are actually mocking the cross. The suffering of Jesus was not real and necessary? To a fully omniscient God, the answer is a resounding 'no'. Or a sick answer, as in 'He still went ahead with it as He wanted to see Jesus suffer....for no reason'.

Meditate on what I am saying. You will see it is sound and true.

One-day when we are in heaven and judge God, the topic of cherry picking as in Calvinism will pop up. God will be 100% beyond reproach, not because He is God, rather because His omniscience is limited by His goodness.

When we draw a picture of God. We cannot use the three omni's as the A-Z definition of Him. He is both omniscient and good, at the same time.

When I married my wife, I had access to read her diary as she places it in her cupboard in our bedroom. Do I? Just because God can do something, does not mean He does. Likewise, just because God can 'know' something, does not mean He does. These are ''our'' inserted assumptions of God as the amount of brain matter between our ears is seriously lacking. A Human cannot grasp God, agreed, but a human can grasp scripture and all the observable evidence. This all points to limited omniscience.

Every single person on this planet will agree that a Creator who knows from birth that a baby will go to hell is wicked and disgusting, not worthy of any praise. This is why Calvinism is not that popular. If we are not Calvinistic, we need a very good explanation of God's omniscience. One the prophets had. Peter ''grasped a truth'' when he said God is impartial in Acts 10:34. A logical mind assumes full omniscience / fake impartiality. A Christian mind renewed by the Holy Spirit should grasp God as Peter and all the prophets did.

You said to meditate on what you're saying -- I have and it sickens me.

No one is going to be judging God. God will be judging all of mankind.

Won't be responding back to you any longer.

 

[KingJ]

Some folks so wish to be on the same level as God . They dare to judge God by their own unrightous values, bringing Him down to human levels. To the point they choose not to believe God's Word as written. What ever God does, or does not do ,can only be Godly as He is God.

Some people can only read scripture and teach it as is. They do not even try grasp it or acknowledge their duty to properly represent God to the lost.

 

[KingJ]

To suggest God is not all knowing and is not all powerful is to speak of things that are contrary to God's nature.

Does God hate what is evil? Yes

Does evil take place? Yes

What does this tell us about our omnipotent God?

 

[KingJ]

You said to meditate on what you're saying -- I have and it sickens me.

No one is going to be judging God. God will be judging all of mankind.

Won't be responding back to you any longer.

It is because people judge God as good that they serve Him.

Why are you a Christian?

 

[JerryfromMass]

Does God hate what is evil? Yes

Does evil take place? Yes

What does this tell us about our omnipotent God?

God created all things, and God knew that which HE created would do evil. God knew what was good and what was evil, hence the tree. Evil comes from the rebellious free will of all created beings, first Satan, then man. God knew this from the beginning

 

[JerryfromMass]

Some people can only read scripture and teach it as is. They do not even try grasp it or acknowledge their duty to properly represent God to the lost.

God is not mocked, and those that don't rightly divide HIS word, but propagate their own "spirit" led intereprations, do mock God and wrest scripture to their own destruction.

 

[complete]

Hello @KingJ,

You and I have engaged in discussion in past threads, and have come to understand each other's reasoning ultimately, but not before a lot of misunderstanding had been talked through and taken away. Here again, I believe that the conflict between yourself and others is the product of misunderstanding. What is the root problem in this instance? Your first response was to @Rebal in replies #9, #13 & #19 on P.1, in regard to 'free will', You obviously consider that denying that man has free will leads to the misrepresentation of God, is this so?

Misrepresentation of God appears to be the reason for a great many of your posts. That is honourable, It is your combative manner which alienates, KingJ, and brings you into contention with others. It also doesn't help you in your desire to prevent God being misrepresented, for it causes intransigence within those who are in discussion with you.

Thank you
With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Hello @KingJ,

I believe that God has foreknowledge. I believe, also, that God has given man freedom of will. Yet, I also believe that God's will, will be done regardless of what mankind wills.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[Christ4Ever]

One-day when we are in heaven and judge God,

Dear Brother,
I can wrap my mind around a lot of what you have written without problem (not necessarily with agreement mind you ). However, the quoted part of what you have shared is not one of them.
Do, you honestly believe what you have written above will be the case, and the purpose it served as part of your discourse?

That being said, would you care to expound upon that statement please?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[KingJ]

Dear Brother,
I can wrap my mind around a lot of what you have written without problem (not necessarily with agreement mind you ). However, the quoted part of what you have shared is not one of them.
Do, you honestly believe what you have written above will be the case, and the purpose it served as part of your discourse?

That being said, would you care to expound upon that statement please?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

Hi Nick

Sure. We need to understand something about who we are. We are highly intelligent creations that grasp good and evil as God does.

If you take a moment to examine your surroundings right now. Whether at work or at home. You will find that you are permanently assessing those around you. Gauging their desires, their motivations. Looking at their every action. The human eye and brain can see the difference between 10 000 facial expressions. God has ''given us'' the ability to express and see 10 000 different facial expressions. You can google it .

Now, lets look closer at actions. If we can both express and see 10 000 different facial expressions from a person, we can most certainly see the smallest gesture of kindness and or meanness. A human being is by design permanently judging and examining those around them. I just laugh my head off when people say ''do not judge''. We are by design the definition of a ''judgmental'' creation.

In Heaven, we will be judging God, His words and His actions for all eternity. We will serve Him because we grasp that He is good. Not because He is ''the all powerful God''.

God ''wants'' us to grasp the height and depth of His love for us / judge Him Eph 3:18-19.

the purpose it served as part of your discourse?

If on day one in heaven we grasp that God did indeed cherry picked us for heaven and our loved ones for an eternity in hell, there will most certainly be a great fallout in heaven.

Maybe some here who think His ''power and unlimited omnipotence and omniscience'' are reasons to worship and praise Him, may not rebel.

 

[KingJ]

God created all things, and God knew that which HE created would do evil. God knew what was good and what was evil, hence the tree. Evil comes from the rebellious free will of all created beings, first Satan, then man. God knew this from the beginning

Before we talk on omniscience and free will, lets first focus on omnipotence.

Please take another stab at my post.

Does God limit His omnipotence to allow what He utterly ''HATES'' to take place? Yes or No.

 

[JerryfromMass]

Before we talk on omniscience and free will, lets first focus on omnipotence.

Please take another stab at my post.

Does God limit His omnipotence to allow what He utterly ''HATES'' to take place? Yes or No.

You may ask me all you'd like, and ask in your own manner. I will do likewise in my response.

God's sovereign authority and omnipotence are absolute and paradoxical. God can do all things, but God will not act contrary to HIS nature. King David recognized the omni in God when he wrote: "Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and HIS greatness is unsearchable." Psalm 145:3, God is omnipotent, but God cannot lie, nor can God deny HIMSELF, nor can HE be unrighteous, nor can HE be unjust, but HE is filled with love, grace, and mercy, yet vengence is HIS, and HIS wrath can no man escape except the saved elect by HIS grace through faith. See how usearchable is God's greatness? You struggle to convince yourself and others that God is limited in his power when it is clear that HIS omnipotence is unsearchable.

In the beginning God spoke things into existence. Imagine the power behind that. By HIS omnipotence God created all things, even that which HE hates, e.g., evil antedeluvian humans. Imagine the power behind that. Then God destroyed all living things on the earth (save those on the ark) in one massive flood. Imagine the power behind that. Then God became an embryo in a virgin's womb and born a human being who would live to adulthood, be crucified, killed, buried, and raised to life again. Imagine the power behind that.

As the potter molds the clay, does the clay cry out: why, what, how? You are the clay crying out. Instead, be still and know that HE is God.

Blessings

 

[JerryfromMass]

Before we talk on omniscience and free will, lets first focus on omnipotence.

Please take another stab at my post.

Does God limit His omnipotence to allow what He utterly ''HATES'' to take place? Yes or No.

Hi Nick

Sure. We need to understand something about who we are. We are highly intelligent creations that grasp good and evil as God does.

If you take a moment to examine your surroundings right now. Whether at work or at home. You will find that you are permanently assessing those around you. Gauging their desires, their motivations. Looking at their every action. The human eye and brain can see the difference between 10 000 facial expressions. God has ''given us'' the ability to express and see 10 000 different facial expressions. You can google it .

Now, lets look closer at actions. If we can both express and see 10 000 different facial expressions from a person, we can most certainly see the smallest gesture of kindness and or meanness. A human being is by design permanently judging and examining those around them. I just laugh my head off when people say ''do not judge''. We are by design the definition of a ''judgmental'' creation.

In Heaven, we will be judging God, His words and His actions for all eternity. We will serve Him because we grasp that He is good. Not because He is ''the all powerful God''.

God ''wants'' us to grasp the height and depth of His love for us / judge Him Eph 3:18-19.

If on day one in heaven we grasp that God did indeed cherry picked us for heaven and our loved ones for an eternity in hell, there will most certainly be a great fallout in heaven.

Maybe some here who think His ''power and unlimited omnipotence and omniscience'' are reasons to worship and praise Him, may not rebel.

There is not any biblical support for your statement "In heaven, we will be judging God." That statement is heretical. God is judge. Period.

 

[KingJ]

There is not any biblical support for your statement "In heaven, we will be judging God." That statement is heretical. God is judge. Period.

You are not grasping scripture or reality.

If God says He is ''good'' and gives us the brain to grasp ''what'' good is, you think He wants us to be a mindless zombie when He does something that is clearly not ''good''?

 

[JerryfromMass]

You are not grasping scripture or reality.

If God says He is ''good'' and gives us the brain to grasp ''what'' good is, you think He wants us to be a mindless zombie when He does something that is clearly not ''good''?

You did not read my last, or did not read it with a clear mind. Read it again for my final answer.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hi Nick

Sure. We need to understand something about who we are. We are highly intelligent creations that grasp good and evil as God does.

If you take a moment to examine your surroundings right now. Whether at work or at home. You will find that you are permanently assessing those around you. Gauging their desires, their motivations. Looking at their every action. The human eye and brain can see the difference between 10 000 facial expressions. God has ''given us'' the ability to express and see 10 000 different facial expressions. You can google it .

Now, lets look closer at actions. If we can both express and see 10 000 different facial expressions from a person, we can most certainly see the smallest gesture of kindness and or meanness. A human being is by design permanently judging and examining those around them. I just laugh my head off when people say ''do not judge''. We are by design the definition of a ''judgmental'' creation.

In Heaven, we will be judging God, His words and His actions for all eternity. We will serve Him because we grasp that He is good. Not because He is ''the all powerful God''.

God ''wants'' us to grasp the height and depth of His love for us / judge Him Eph 3:18-19.

If on day one in heaven we grasp that God did indeed cherry picked us for heaven and our loved ones for an eternity in hell, there will most certainly be a great fallout in heaven.

Maybe some here who think His ''power and unlimited omnipotence and omniscience'' are reasons to worship and praise Him, may not rebel.

Dear Brother,
Thank-you for your clarification. The use of "judging" has a negative connotation, and I fell into that same trap that most do, when not giving its usage proper thought.
However.....I did type the following before finally deciding on what to say and enjoyed the exercise, so share it with you brother.

Scientifically it might be seen as people being basically analytical in nature. I must be a freak of nature. For I am just a simple man. Oh, there are times depending on the conditions/surrounding that I evaluate due to safety sake what to make of a given situation, but in general, I don't at least not consciously do so. I don't see myself judging God on this or that, but being in Heaven and already knowing His faithfulness, like a child with a Father, just basking in His Great Love doesn't require me to wonder the "why". I believe the moment will suffice in the safety of His Presence. These are what I call "WOW" moments, that only allow His presence/wonder to exist.

Maybe that is why I enjoy life, even with all the troubles and tribulations currently part of being a resident of planet Earth. I already know the why "Sin", and that's enough for me. Probably why I don't get into too many of these discussions, if you know what I mean. You just caught my interest in the use of the aforementioned phrase.

Anyway, I don't believe that as intelligent creations that the Eternal Life awaiting us is meant to reflect on understanding ourselves, but rather getting to know our Father. In the abstract one can see that they'll be much that we may "weight" on, but I'd prefer the word and believe that the use of "judging" again too analytical, when "wonder" suffices for me in the moment and the experience awaiting us.

I also don't believe rebellion is in the cards for those chosen to be Heaven bound, or those drawn to Him. So, I won't be expecting a great fallout to occur anytime in the future. Though free will dictates that the possibility be available to all. I can only see fallout for those who have failed to grasp His Great Love, before finally being face to face, with our God. It then begs the question, would they have entered in the first place in not knowing at least in part this Love through Christ Jesus? I don't think failure to recognize it when face to face is an option, because in Christ Jesus we're strengthened by His Grace to know without a doubt the expanse of His Love for us, if not fully now in that day then, that leaves I would think time only to rejoice, be amazed and maybe for some not caught up in the wonder of it all, to genuflect! Also, His knowing us better than we know ourselves, for I don't believe any will be rejecting what is freely given, to accept the alternative!

(But then, I don't remember my childhood when I just accepted vs judged my life experiences either brother. Not so simple after all! )

Thank-you for sharing your understanding, though in truth I believe that its not the omnipotence and omniscience that keeps one worshiping and praising Him, but rather His Great Love, or basement level fear of Hell. At least my hope for others is that Love and not Hell has us devoting and adoring our One true God. That once past the realization that we are in the hands of living God, because the fear of that knowledge is conditioned upon a sinful nature that we will no longer have. We will grow in the knowledge of His Love, who is God. Now that is the child in me that gravitates towards those who Love and judges no more than that. "Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it."

Now I apprehend your wording, and will add a new opening line.

With the Love of Christ Jesus brother.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><