Where do Christians go when they 'die'?

[Sue D.]

I totally agree brother, the tribulation and great tribulation hasn't happened yet, the question is I think, are we on the edge of the start of the first three and a half years?

We have seen the birth pangs Jesus spoke about, though we do not know how long the birth pangs will last, but we do know that they get more severe towards the end. Jesus did say, when we see things this is not the end, so true because the tribulation periods have to follow. It seems to me that the birth pangs we are seeing before our eyes, will run until the end of the Great Tribulation period. They will worsen, as prophesied, in the Tribulation period and get more extreme in the great tribulation period.

Many of us will live through these periods, many with be martyred, we are to be strong and of good faith, understanding what The Word of God tells us.

May the Peace which transends all understanding be with us all.

Your comment that "many of us will live through these period " sounds like you believe in a "partial rapture" of sorts? either a person will be a born again believer at the time of the rapture or a person Won't be. So where does the "many" part of your comment fit in?

 

[Hekuran]

Hasn't the discussion so far shown that the all theories around rapture - the faithful being removed from the earth - are redundant?

 

[Dave M]

Hasn't the discussion so far shown that the all theories around rapture - the faithful being removed from the earth - are redundant?

the rapture is 100% taught in the bible, its the timing of the rapture that people seem to be at odds with.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Rev 21:22; I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Rev 22:1; Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
Rev 22:2; in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Ezek 47:12; )
Rev 22:3; There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;
Rev 22:4; they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.
Rev 22:5; And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

Now then if we eventually go to be with Jesus (pre-trib, post-trib, pre-millennial, soul-sleep, spirit-only, whatever otherwise) but no matter what you believe about those things.
Eventually we go to be "with" Jesus at some point.

Now Jesus is currently in heaven seated at the right hand of the Father.
But the verses above say Jesus (and the Father) will move their thrones to the New Jerusalem. (not the new heaven or the new earth).
So it seems to me... if we are to be "with" Jesus. When He dwells in the New Jerusalem, that is where we will dwell also.

Greeting brother, I love the way your mind works my friend.

To God be the Glory.

Rev 21:22; I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Rev 22:3; There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;

I believe, comments welcome, that the New Jerusalem is being built around the throne.

I do not read they will move into it, I read they will be in it, although it could be interpreted both ways.

I believe God and Jesus are in the centre of the Third Heaven, the New Jerusalem. The Church, the ekklesia, is being build around them.

Rev 21:22;
I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

So it seems that the Temple (spiritual) is complete, it has been since Christ's return, it has been from Him sitting at the right hand of the Father, but the church is still being built up till the time of the Gentiles is complete. (I quote spiritual Temple as God is Spirit, so as not to mix with the first two or third Temple to be on earth).

Unlike us humans that have a place built and then move into it, or move in to a building previously built, God is in heaven with His Son, the Temple is complete, God and Yeshua are the Temple, but it is the church that is being built, the ekklesia, the New Jerusalem. Once complete, when All Names in the Book of Life and The Lamb are fulfilled, the New Jerusalem, the Holy city, the Tabernacle of God, is the fulfilment of all God’s promises.

Shalom

 

[Brother-Paul]

Hasn't the discussion so far shown that the all theories around rapture - the faithful being removed from the earth - are redundant?

I am more convinced by the day that we as saved believers will have to live through the tribulation and great tribulation period, subject to the length of our lives which is also in God's hands.

the rapture is 100% taught in the bible, its the timing of the rapture that people seem to be at odds with.

I totally agree Dave there will be a Rapture, scripture tells us so, although doesn't use the actual word. The big question is when?

Pre trib doubtful
mid trib doubtful
end of the tribulation? I don't know possibly.

Or could it be after the Millennium? But Christ will have returned before then!

I do not know the answer, be we know who does.

All things will be revealed by God in His timing.

 

[B-A-C]

I do not read they will move into it, I read they will be in it, although it could be interpreted both ways.

Also possible, but I would contend even if this is so... their thrones are still in a different place at this point. No longer in heaven.

 

[Dave M]

I am more convinced by the day that we as saved believers will have to live through the tribulation and great tribulation period

yep I believe this also, I do believe we will be protected from the wrath of God, but we will still go through it. I do see one verse that always has me wondering what it means as Jesus says to the church of Philadelphia he will keep them from the hour of testing coming to the whole earth. This could mean a lot of different things, maybe we die before it happens, maybe we go through but protected,,,, your thoughts??

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

 

[Brother-Paul]

To give a simple me thought as you all know much more as we all on different parts of our journey and im really blessed since joining this forum and im loving reading your posts but as long as im with jesus and he says well done good and faithfull servant enter in im happy as can be thats heaven to me.
so i pray to be and become the faithfull servant above all else Amen x

May the Lord truly bless you for your faithfulness, we are to accept God's Word as little children, the milk is lovely, but the meat is also tasty.

Trust in the Lord sister and lean not on your own understanding...

Bless you

 

[B-A-C]

yep I believe this also, I do believe we will be protected from the wrath of God, but we will still go through it. I do see one verse that always has me wondering what it means as Jesus says to the church of Philadelphia he will keep them from the hour of testing coming to the whole earth. This could mean a lot of different things, maybe we die before it happens, maybe we go through but protected,,,, your thoughts??

I also believe we will be there when it happens... but we will be protected while it happens.

The only (and I mean "only") scripture I have ever been given to support a pre-trib rapture is...
1Thes 5:9; For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

..however...

Rev 7:2; And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3; saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads."

Rev 9:3; Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4; They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
Rev 9:5; And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.
Rev 9:6; And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them.

Who are these people with the seal of God on them during the tribulation? It seems that the plagues that affect other people will not hurt those with the seal.
That is not to say they won't be killed (or beheaded) if they refuse to take the mark of the beast. But how can you "refuse" to take the mark of the beast unless you are around
to be offered to take it.

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Then we have "the elect". Who are "the elect" in the tribulation? If the elect are Christians, then it seems some will go through the tribulation.

Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

The Bible specifically says saints from every nation and race will come out of the tribulation.

Rev 7:9; After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15; "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

Also there are verses that say specifically say the rapture happens "after" the tribulation.

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

It is "the elect" who are raptured here, we see the elect still around in Matt 24:22 and Mark 13:20 ?

Mark 13:24; "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25; AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26; "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

.. but I don't see a single verse that says this will happen "before".

 

[Brother-Paul]

Your comment that "many of us will live through these period " sounds like you believe in a "partial rapture" of sorts? either a person will be a born again believer at the time of the rapture or a person Won't be. So where does the "many" part of your comment fit in?

Greeting sister

The quote many of us, is based on how long we live, will we live up to the rapture, some may not live long enough but many of us will live through those periods if the rapture is at the end of the tribulation periods.

If the Rapture is not until Christ Return in Glory to defeat the devil, then we will all have to live through the tribulation and great tribulation periods. Saved souls we will have no option but live through those periods.

If we focus on pre-trib, we are hoping to be removed before the wrath of God is poured out. Those thoughts usually come from God saved the Jews from Pharaohs army, God saved Noah's family at the flood. But we are in the time of the Gentiles so those thoughts could be unrealistic.

If we focus on mid-trib, we are again hopefully expecting to be removed before things get really bad.

It is right to expect our Lord to return at any time, scripture tells us to expect him, but I think also that we should be prepared to live though the tribulation periods, our faith will certainly be tested, we may have to accept being martyred.

Shalom

 

[Brother-Paul]

yep I believe this also, I do believe we will be protected from the wrath of God, but we will still go through it. I do see one verse that always has me wondering what it means as Jesus says to the church of Philadelphia he will keep them from the hour of testing coming to the whole earth. This could mean a lot of different things, maybe we die before it happens, maybe we go through but protected,,,, your thoughts??

I am pretty sure when it refers to the Wrath to come, this is the judgement. Those who are redeemed are saved from the wrath of God, saved from the Great White Throne Judgement, believers will be judged for what we have done in this life for our Lord but are saved from the wrath those who do not believe and accept Jesus, the wrath of God comes on them for rejecting Jesus.

This is nothing to do with the Tribulations. That is as I understand it brother.

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

There are lots of suggestions in many commentaries, there are many references to 1 & 2 Thessalonians and Hebrews, but I do not think these to be the same as Wrath

 

[Hekuran]

I'd put the Biblical grounding for the rapture at 0%. Plus it makes no sense in the story of God's plan for the world.

 

[B-A-C]

I'd put the Biblical grounding for the rapture at 0%. Plus it makes no sense in the story of God's plan for the world.

The word "rapture" isn't in the Bible, but it simply means "gather together" or "catch up".
Key verses are..

Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.
Matt 13:29; "But he *said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
Matt 13:30; 'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
1Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Now where they go after they are gathered up... well that's why we are discussing it.

 

[Hekuran]

If by rapture you mean that when Jesus returns he will bring every believer together, then I can accept that.

But most people use the word thinking that somehow the church is going to be snatched away from the earth, an idea that does not stack up with anything the Bible teaches. Better to ditch the word altogether. It's too misleading.

 

[PloughBoy]

One thing for sure, i do notice that this room has been loaded this morning with all kinds of Biblical "punctuations" thought patterns concerning our final destination. For I do perceived, that "Our Father will not have us into confusion. And as I understand, just like many here, understands From when the time comes, when "The Son of God" calls our name, be ye in the grave or be ye still alive, in that moment, in the twinkling of an eye! Everything is going to be brand new to "Us", His voice, and everything from that time on, every moment of our existence is going to be beyond anything that has ever existed. From the time of His Voice, our change in "Being", "The Coronation Table" The Amazement of ALL of US in "BEING" Collectively" as we Dine in "The New Jerusalem" in The SKY" "The RADIANCE OF Our Appearance" will be Manifested. We will even be a Spectacle, to all the "Heavenly Host"!
To make things a little clearer here, And That is Just THE Beginning, After the Glorious Celebration, WE will RETURN to EARTH ALONG with "The KINGS of KINGS" and REIGN {RULE] with HIM, [for we are "The kingdom of kings and priest]!" [are you listening]? It has been prepared for you, before The foundation of world. Every MOMENT shall thrill your very "Being" for you have "Enter" "Eternity"! and It does not Stop there. There is more to Come, You will Reign with Christ for a Thousands years! And one thousand years for you, will be like, as it was, one day. And it does not Stop there, It becomes new again, the earth and Sun, ran from His presence. AND AFTER hell, death , false prophet, satan was cast into lake of fire, Then things became brand new again!

GOD has spectacular events for us! Thrilling events for Us! While this bottom world exists. The world will Know both dead and those alive! How big of fools we were! "for we were a host of fools for Jesus" For the the things we did was foolishness in worlds view.

My Brothers and sisters in Christ, GOD does not ask you to serve in vain!!!! "Come out from among them" Let the world have the world!!!! This is not your place! You Belong to GOD!

My Brothers, sisters, it is not that, it is our knowledge of God is not good enough. The problem is, our GOD is beyond BIG, He is beyond "Eternity" and many Has place Him as a earthy creature, and place Him in our thoughts of Granduer, His treasures are beyond the temporal universe! "be sure of this CHILD of GOD, GOD will not, let you love this world and the things that are in it.

Well "PloughBoy" how is God going to do that? I going to say this, one day, years ago, when I ask Him, from this statement.: "Lord, you cannot fix this" He said: fix what? I said: this mess, i am in. He said: "I don t see no mess" I said: What you mean, you don't see no mess? He said: I don't. Then I ask Him: How, can you fix this? He said: "Because, " I AM GOD". And the tears start running and the JOY begin to overcome me. This is not a lie. Then I came to myself and realized what had, just taken place. I was having a conversation with My GOD and did not realize it, until it was over. And then the WORD of GOD came to me and I Heard these words: "When the LORD restored the captives of Zion, we were like dreamers. 2Then our mouths were filled with laughter, our tongues with shouts of joy. Then it was said among the nations, “The LORD has done great things for them.”…

Your GOD is way beyond your human mind He is far beyond your imagination. Beyond earth patterns. "set your affections beyond earth's boundaries" and begin to look at, what is to come. Not in books, but in "The Book". He will not let you down, man will, with all of his interpretations.

 

[Sue D.]

According to Daniel 9 : Prophesy of the 70 weeks. vs 27 talks about a covenant with many for one week. , but in the middle of the week. According the entire passage -- there is still one 'week' / set of 7 years / still in the future.
That will be the coming 7 weeks tribulation. During that time is when the 144,000 sealed Jews will be around -- AFter the up-gathering of the born again believers. There will be multitudes saved as per Rev. 7 vs 14. God is not through with the non-believening Jews yet.

 

[PloughBoy]

If by rapture you mean that when Jesus returns he will bring every believer together, then I can accept that.

But most people use the word thinking that somehow the church is going to be snatched away from the earth, an idea that does not stack up with anything the Bible teaches. Better to ditch the word altogether. It's too misleading.

I say the Rapture manifestation is woven through out the fabric of "The whole Bible" and the NT Reveals it and a lot more that is to come. The problem arise because the Little Foxes that spoils the vines, have slipped between your pages. And your pages, no error of your own, but have become adulterated by those who have led you into such matters of astray. Far as most church go'er, they have no idea of definition of "biblical related words" and a top of the line "Bible encyclopedia'! so in reality they do not give a hoot about a Rapture or a definition of anything about GOD! But believe and die and go to heaven and then look down and look after their love ones. Research has found this true!
I have come to believe, that it is true but hurtful, only a few will be saved and Many will say "Lord, Lord" and He will say with power and authority: "I NEVER, knew you" NEVER! "and those never, looked for HIs return! There will be no kindness, for some, in later events.

The less you know about what is to come, the less excited about the events you are in, the less you grow into the events that is to come, the dullness the expectation is. God is Not a dullness for the Child of God. God is not interested in relieving His child's dullness by the "entertainment" of this "universe" and all that is in it. Many of a Christian's view, of GOD is To small. Their GOD is not small, their view of GOD is. If only they would let the word of God and not the words of man talking about GOD would dwell in them Richly! They would be overwhelm by HIM and the expectation of "The Majestic of HIS Return" He would have to make them leave out the front door of their own house to testify of such events in a dark and decaying world. "Lord, who has believed our report, and whom have the arm of the Lord been revealed."

The Voice has not grown silent. "Be ye rather cold or hot "! If you need the Fire! ask God!

 

[Sue D.]

If by rapture you mean that when Jesus returns he will bring every believer together, then I can accept that.

But most people use the word thinking that somehow the church is going to be snatched away from the earth, an idea that does not stack up with anything the Bible teaches. Better to ditch the word altogether. It's too misleading.

Well -- the term 'rapture' means 'up-gathering' of the Church. All born again believer from all time. As per 1 Thessalonians 4:14 - 18 -- The Lord, Himself, will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus, we shall always be with the Lord.." All of this will be in the same period of time.

Then there will Also be the bodily earthly return of Jesus Christ for His 1,000 yr reign and those who had been with Him will return with Him.

 

[Dave M]

If by rapture you mean that when Jesus returns he will bring every believer together, then I can accept that.

I think we are on the same page this is the scripture that always comes to my mind when I here the of the rapture, it is being caught up in the air to meet Jesus be changed and meet all the other beleivers, then I think return to earth and start the 1000 year rule. BUt it says meet in the air

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.



to me this seems to be the second coming when Christ returns to take over things for the 1000 year rule, those left on earth that are beleivers are going to be caught up in the air and changed, I can only imagine chaged means to receive a glorified body

 

[PloughBoy]

I think we are on the same page this is the scripture that always comes to my mind when I here the of the rapture, it is being caught up in the air to meet Jesus be changed and meet all the other beleivers, then I think return to earth and start the 1000 year rule. BUt it says meet in the air

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.



to me this seems to be the second coming when Christ returns to take over things for the 1000 year rule, those left on earth that are beleivers are going to be caught up in the air and changed, I can only imagine chaged means to receive a glorified body

The wedding garment for the "Coronation" at the Dinner table The Wedding feast! You need your proper attire, sir. It is not His second coming, He comes to get you and escort you. For you are special, very special.