Where do Christians go when they 'die'?

[B-A-C]

Hi B.A.C. Are you saying that Jesus will never leave or forsake us, only in respect to our wealth, and that it will be debateable that he will be with us with respect to the rest of our lives?

What I am saying is.. even though he was with people, they forsook God, all through the Bible. (not all of them of course, but many of them).
Also you keep saying "Jesus" won't forsake us... and that may be correct, but He isn't the one who made that statement, at least not while He was on the Earth.
The Israelite's forsook God (many times, even different generations), Solomon forsook God, Judas betrayed Jesus, Peter denied Jesus, Saul went to a seer for guidance, etc...
Peter repented and came back... the others didn't.

 

[Brother-Paul]

No you didn't, but I said: you reminded Me. I did not think it up. But it came to my mind. It was not a negative thought but humorous! For it is a humorous related text concerning "Festus". out cry.

Bless you brother.

 

[Butch5]

Hades is not Sheol. Hades was one-half, One side of Sheol.

The saints were believed to be on one side of Sheol, and the sinners on the other side of Sheol.

Luke 16:

22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away * and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'

You answered your question when you posted John 3:13.

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (Jn. 3:13 KJV)

John wrote his epistle about 60 years after Christ resurrected and he said, not one has gone into Heaven except Jesus. So, 60 years after the Resurrection no one had gone into Heaven except Jesus. That means no believer had gone there. That would tell us that believers don't go to Heaven when they die. That tells us that neither Enoch nor Elijah went to Heaven.

 

[Brother-Paul]

You answered your question when you posted John 3:13.

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (Jn. 3:13 KJV)

John wrote his epistle about 60 years after Christ resurrected and he said, not one has gone into Heaven except Jesus. So, 60 years after the Resurrection no one had gone into Heaven except Jesus. That means no believer had gone there. That would tell us that believers don't go to Heaven when they die. That tells us that neither Enoch nor Elijah went to Heaven.

I agree brother

No one goes to Heaven when they die, now that statement would rock the worldwide church, especially the institutionalised churches, it would rock the places of worship worldwide, but I believe it is true, no one goes to heaven when they die.

The spirit and the soul goes to heaven, the body back to the dust of the earth from whence it came, and remains there until the resurrection.

Now I can imagine many could be upset being told this but that is what we are told in The Word. I cringe when people say... 'they are alright now they are in heaven, they are looking down on us'. Firstly they wouldn't be in heaven if they were not saved, but sadly, many ministers preach John 14:2-4 to make others believe they are in heaven and that there is a room prepared for them. Secondly, even if they are saved, the rooms are not ready yet, they are being prepared, for the saved souls.

I am sure some will say, what about the martyrs under the alter in heaven, crying out for vengeance, I believe they are the spirit and soul of the martyrs who were beheaded, fellowship and scriptural discussions and study are healthy for the soul.

Shalom

 

[Trevor]

What I am saying is.. even though he was with people, they forsook God, all through the Bible. (not all of them of course, but many of them).
Also you keep saying "Jesus" won't forsake us... and that may be correct, but He isn't the one who made that statement, at least not while He was on the Earth.
The Israelite's forsook God (many times, even different generations), Solomon forsook God, Judas betrayed Jesus, Peter denied Jesus, Saul went to a seer for guidance, etc...
Peter repented and came back... the others didn't.

Hi B.A.C. Who was speaking in psalm 22?

 

[B-A-C]

Hi B.A.C. Who was speaking in psalm 22?

My Bible says it's a Psalm of David.

Psa 22:1; For the choir director; upon Aijeleth Hashshahar. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.

But Jesus did quote parts of it. However "why have You forsaken me", seems to be the exact opposite of "I won't forsake you".

 

[Trevor]

My Bible says it's a Psalm of David.

Psa 22:1; For the choir director; upon Aijeleth Hashshahar. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.

But Jesus did quote parts of it. However "why have You forsaken me", seems to be the exact opposite of "I won't forsake you".

My Bible says it's a Psalm of David.

Psa 22:1; For the choir director; upon Aijeleth Hashshahar. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.

But Jesus did quote parts of it. However "why have You forsaken me", seems to be the exact opposite of "I won't forsake you".

I think if you read it B.A.C. it was Jesus speaking through David. My God my God why hast thou forsaken me, Jesus cried that out whilst hanging on the cross.'They have pierced my hands and my feet' There was no crucifiction in the times of David, crucifiction was a Roman method of capital punishment. the method in David's day was stoneing. They are casting lots for my clothing? that's what the Roman soldiers did while Jesus was on the cross. All who see me mock me, they hurl insults, shaking their heads; He trusts in the Lord; let the Lord rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him. They were the insults hurled at Jesus while he was hanging on the cross. I am poured out like water and all my bones are out of joint, that's what happens when a person hangs on a cross. That was Jesus crying out through the psalmist. I don't believe you wish to understand scripture, you just want to argue.

 

[Sue D.]

You answered your question when you posted John 3:13.

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (Jn. 3:13 KJV)

John wrote his epistle about 60 years after Christ resurrected and he said, not one has gone into Heaven except Jesus. So, 60 years after the Resurrection no one had gone into Heaven except Jesus. That means no believer had gone there. That would tell us that believers don't go to Heaven when they die. That tells us that neither Enoch nor Elijah went to Heaven.

Actually Scripture says that God took --it was either Enoch or Elijah -- and he was gone with God. And I'm thinking there was another Old Testament saint who didn't die -- but God took him.

 

[Sue D.]

It was Elijah and he was with Elisha -- so Elisha took the place of Elijah. 2 Kings 2.

 

[B-A-C]

Actually Scripture says that God took --it was either Enoch or Elijah -- and he was gone with God. And I'm thinking there was another Old Testament saint who didn't die -- but God took him.

A small technicality here... maybe it doesn't matter, but maybe it does.
Of the three humans who went to heaven (not counting Jesus)... Enoch, Elijah and Paul... none of them "died" in order to get there. Paul doesn't really count for two reason,
first he didn't know if he was really physically there, or just in spirit. Second, he didn't stay there, he returned to earth, to "die" at a later time.

Enoch never "died". The Bible specifically says so.

Heb 11:5; By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

So neither Enoch or Paul "died" in order to go to heaven. That leaves Elijah... we know he went to heaven... but did he "die"? The Bible doesn't specifically say he did.

2Kin 2:11; As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.
2Kin 2:12; Elisha saw it and cried out, "My father, my father, the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!" And he saw Elijah no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them in two pieces.

My "opinion" is that Elijah did not die.

There is the thief on the cross, but it doesn't say he went to heaven, it says he went to 'Paradise" which may or may not be heaven. Jewish tradition says that "paradise" (Abraham's Bosom) was in the Earth,
in Sheol, where Lazarus (the beggar) went.

Now for the reason that Enoch and Elijah didn't actually "die" a physical death. Many people speculate that they are the two "witnesses' in Revelation 11:3-12; ( Matt 17:11; )
Whoever the two witnesses are... they will die when they are done witnessing, after that it seems to will go (back?) to heaven.

Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration... ( Matt 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30; ) but we don't know where they came from, or where they went to.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Hi B.A.C. Who was speaking in psalm 22?

My Bible says it's a Psalm of David.

Psa 22:1; For the choir director; upon Aijeleth Hashshahar. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.

But Jesus did quote parts of it. However "why have You forsaken me", seems to be the exact opposite of "I won't forsake you".

I think if you read it B.A.C. it was Jesus speaking through David. My God my God why hast thou forsaken me, Jesus cried that out whilst hanging on the cross.'They have pierced my hands and my feet' There was no crucifiction in the times of David, crucifiction was a Roman method of capital punishment. the method in David's day was stoneing. They are casting lots for my clothing? that's what the Roman soldiers did while Jesus was on the cross. All who see me mock me, they hurl insults, shaking their heads; He trusts in the Lord; let the Lord rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him. They were the insults hurled at Jesus while he was hanging on the cross. I am poured out like water and all my bones are out of joint, that's what happens when a person hangs on a cross. That was Jesus crying out through the psalmist. I don't believe you wish to understand scripture, you just want to argue.

When I saw your comment Trevor my thoughts came immediately to what I read here. I include this now for two reasons, one it answers what you were referring to, and secondly some may get some benefit from reading the message, especially those who may feel God is not around, or not as close as they would like or not as close as He usually is.

This is what William Tyndales commentary says

Psalm 22. My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?

Context

Christian readers almost immediately read Psalm 22 as pointing to the death of Christ, since it is so often quoted in the Passion Narratives of the New Testament. While we will consider the Christological import of the psalm later (under Meaning), this song served as a lament for the people of God during the Old Testament period. The title claims that David wrote the song, and there is no good reason to doubt this tradition. The psalm is a prayer by an individual who feels abandoned by God in the midst of the vicious attack of his enemies, and the historical books of the Old Testament record more than one occasion in David’s life that could have produced such a composition. That said, as usual, the psalm is devoid of specific historical references, because it was written not to create a historical record, but for use by later worshippers in a similar, though not necessarily identical, situation.

The psalm begins by asking God why he has been absent from the psalmist (Psalm 22:1-2), even though Israel praises him and he has rescued his ancestors in the past (Psalm 22:3-5). Since God is absent, the psalmist’s enemies have demeaned him (Psalm 22:6-8). He feels sub-human (v6), even though he has had a relationship with God since birth (Psalm 22:9-11). He then complains about the harmful actions of his enemies, referring to them using animal analogies (bulls, lions, dogs), and notes his fearful response (Psalm 22:11-18). He makes one final appeal for help (Psalm 22:19-21) before concluding his prayer with praise (Psalm 22:22-31).

Although there are more parts to explain this Psalm in his commentary I include 'Meaning' which was referred to in this part.

Meaning
Psalm 22 is a psalm of lament by a person who does not feel the presence of God in the midst of suffering, but rather experiences fear in the face of persecution by enemies. The well-known Christological sense of the psalm (see below) should not distract us from the fact that the psalm is not a prophecy, but rather a lament which may be a model prayer for worshippers today who can use this psalm to call on God to make himself present in the midst of pain. The confidence and joy expressed at the end can impart hope, as the psalmist moves towards God rather than staying mired in disappointment.

Jesus experienced a similar situation when he was attacked by those who hated him, and so he and the Gospel writers used the psalm to articulate his feelings and the events surrounding his crucifixion. First, Psalm 22:18 is cited (Matt 27:35, Mark 15:24, John 19:24) or alluded to (Luke 23:34) in reference to the soldiers who divided the clothes of the condemned Jesus among themselves. He experienced the taunts and saw the derisive shaking of heads of those who passed by the cross (Matt 27:39, Mark 15:29, Luke 23:35, referencing Psalm 22:7-8). Jesus expressed his feeling of divine abandonment by uttering the first verse of Psalm 22 (Matt 27:46, Mark 15:34). The Father loved the Son, but sacrificed himself by withdrawing his special presence from him, so the Son could experience the full force of the meaninglessness of the fallen world. He became a curse in order to redeem us ‘from the curse of the law’ (Gal 3:13). These actual quotations from the first part of Psalm 22 demonstrate that Jesus and the Gospel writers saw how closely this psalm reflects Jesus’ sufferings and death. The psalm ends with praise. For the psalmist, the praise arises because God rescued him from death. Jesus died, but God rescued him by raising him from the dead. Thus Heb 2:11-12 quotes Psalm 22:22 which has Jesus announce,

I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters;
in the assembly I will sing your praises.

Tyndale Commentaries - Psalms.

 

[Trevor]

When I saw your comment Trevor my thoughts came immediately to what I read here. I include this now for two reasons, one it answers what you were referring to, and secondly some may get some benefit from reading the message, especially those who may feel God is not around, or not as close as they would like or not as close as He usually is.

This is what William Tyndales commentary says

Psalm 22. My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?

Context

Christian readers almost immediately read Psalm 22 as pointing to the death of Christ, since it is so often quoted in the Passion Narratives of the New Testament. While we will consider the Christological import of the psalm later (under Meaning), this song served as a lament for the people of God during the Old Testament period. The title claims that David wrote the song, and there is no good reason to doubt this tradition. The psalm is a prayer by an individual who feels abandoned by God in the midst of the vicious attack of his enemies, and the historical books of the Old Testament record more than one occasion in David’s life that could have produced such a composition. That said, as usual, the psalm is devoid of specific historical references, because it was written not to create a historical record, but for use by later worshippers in a similar, though not necessarily identical, situation.

The psalm begins by asking God why he has been absent from the psalmist (Psalm 22:1-2), even though Israel praises him and he has rescued his ancestors in the past (Psalm 22:3-5). Since God is absent, the psalmist’s enemies have demeaned him (Psalm 22:6-8). He feels sub-human (v6), even though he has had a relationship with God since birth (Psalm 22:9-11). He then complains about the harmful actions of his enemies, referring to them using animal analogies (bulls, lions, dogs), and notes his fearful response (Psalm 22:11-18). He makes one final appeal for help (Psalm 22:19-21) before concluding his prayer with praise (Psalm 22:22-31).

Although there are more parts to explain this Psalm in his commentary I include 'Meaning' which was referred to in this part.

Meaning
Psalm 22 is a psalm of lament by a person who does not feel the presence of God in the midst of suffering, but rather experiences fear in the face of persecution by enemies. The well-known Christological sense of the psalm (see below) should not distract us from the fact that the psalm is not a prophecy, but rather a lament which may be a model prayer for worshippers today who can use this psalm to call on God to make himself present in the midst of pain. The confidence and joy expressed at the end can impart hope, as the psalmist moves towards God rather than staying mired in disappointment.

Jesus experienced a similar situation when he was attacked by those who hated him, and so he and the Gospel writers used the psalm to articulate his feelings and the events surrounding his crucifixion. First, Psalm 22:18 is cited (Matt 27:35, Mark 15:24, John 19:24) or alluded to (Luke 23:34) in reference to the soldiers who divided the clothes of the condemned Jesus among themselves. He experienced the taunts and saw the derisive shaking of heads of those who passed by the cross (Matt 27:39, Mark 15:29, Luke 23:35, referencing Psalm 22:7-8). Jesus expressed his feeling of divine abandonment by uttering the first verse of Psalm 22 (Matt 27:46, Mark 15:34). The Father loved the Son, but sacrificed himself by withdrawing his special presence from him, so the Son could experience the full force of the meaninglessness of the fallen world. He became a curse in order to redeem us ‘from the curse of the law’ (Gal 3:13). These actual quotations from the first part of Psalm 22 demonstrate that Jesus and the Gospel writers saw how closely this psalm reflects Jesus’ sufferings and death. The psalm ends with praise. For the psalmist, the praise arises because God rescued him from death. Jesus died, but God rescued him by raising him from the dead. Thus Heb 2:11-12 quotes Psalm 22:22 which has Jesus announce,

I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters;
in the assembly I will sing your praises.

Tyndale Commentaries - Psalms.

Matthew 27:46; My God my God why have you forsaken me.
Luke 23:34; And they devided up his clothes by casting lots
Luke 23:35-36 The people stood watching and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, "He saved others; let him save mimself if he is the Christ of God, the chosen one". The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar and said, "If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself."
'Crucificton'
These

When I saw your comment Trevor my thoughts came immediately to what I read here. I include this now for two reasons, one it answers what you were referring to, and secondly some may get some benefit from reading the message, especially those who may feel God is not around, or not as close as they would like or not as close as He usually is.

This is what William Tyndales commentary says

Psalm 22. My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?

Context

Christian readers almost immediately read Psalm 22 as pointing to the death of Christ, since it is so often quoted in the Passion Narratives of the New Testament. While we will consider the Christological import of the psalm later (under Meaning), this song served as a lament for the people of God during the Old Testament period. The title claims that David wrote the song, and there is no good reason to doubt this tradition. The psalm is a prayer by an individual who feels abandoned by God in the midst of the vicious attack of his enemies, and the historical books of the Old Testament record more than one occasion in David’s life that could have produced such a composition. That said, as usual, the psalm is devoid of specific historical references, because it was written not to create a historical record, but for use by later worshippers in a similar, though not necessarily identical, situation.

The psalm begins by asking God why he has been absent from the psalmist (Psalm 22:1-2), even though Israel praises him and he has rescued his ancestors in the past (Psalm 22:3-5). Since God is absent, the psalmist’s enemies have demeaned him (Psalm 22:6-8). He feels sub-human (v6), even though he has had a relationship with God since birth (Psalm 22:9-11). He then complains about the harmful actions of his enemies, referring to them using animal analogies (bulls, lions, dogs), and notes his fearful response (Psalm 22:11-18). He makes one final appeal for help (Psalm 22:19-21) before concluding his prayer with praise (Psalm 22:22-31).

Although there are more parts to explain this Psalm in his commentary I include 'Meaning' which was referred to in this part.

Meaning
Psalm 22 is a psalm of lament by a person who does not feel the presence of God in the midst of suffering, but rather experiences fear in the face of persecution by enemies. The well-known Christological sense of the psalm (see below) should not distract us from the fact that the psalm is not a prophecy, but rather a lament which may be a model prayer for worshippers today who can use this psalm to call on God to make himself present in the midst of pain. The confidence and joy expressed at the end can impart hope, as the psalmist moves towards God rather than staying mired in disappointment.

Jesus experienced a similar situation when he was attacked by those who hated him, and so he and the Gospel writers used the psalm to articulate his feelings and the events surrounding his crucifixion. First, Psalm 22:18 is cited (Matt 27:35, Mark 15:24, John 19:24) or alluded to (Luke 23:34) in reference to the soldiers who divided the clothes of the condemned Jesus among themselves. He experienced the taunts and saw the derisive shaking of heads of those who passed by the cross (Matt 27:39, Mark 15:29, Luke 23:35, referencing Psalm 22:7-8). Jesus expressed his feeling of divine abandonment by uttering the first verse of Psalm 22 (Matt 27:46, Mark 15:34). The Father loved the Son, but sacrificed himself by withdrawing his special presence from him, so the Son could experience the full force of the meaninglessness of the fallen world. He became a curse in order to redeem us ‘from the curse of the law’ (Gal 3:13). These actual quotations from the first part of Psalm 22 demonstrate that Jesus and the Gospel writers saw how closely this psalm reflects Jesus’ sufferings and death. The psalm ends with praise. For the psalmist, the praise arises because God rescued him from death. Jesus died, but God rescued him by raising him from the dead. Thus Heb 2:11-12 quotes Psalm 22:22 which has Jesus announce,

I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters;
in the assembly I will sing your praises.

Tyndale Commentaries - Psalms.

I noticed the omission of the reference to "They have pierced my hands and my feet" The form of capital punishment for God's people in those days were the four executions of the court, Stoning, burning, decapitation and strangulation. Nowhere did anyone die by crucifiction and yet the psalmist referred to the piercing of hands and feet, which was the method used to crucify Jesus. Crucifiction was a method of capital punishment used by the Persians,Seleucids, Carthaginians and Romans

When I saw your comment Trevor my thoughts came immediately to what I read here. I include this now for two reasons, one it answers what you were referring to, and secondly some may get some benefit from reading the message, especially those who may feel God is not around, or not as close as they would like or not as close as He usually is.

This is what William Tyndales commentary says

Psalm 22. My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?

Context

Christian readers almost immediately read Psalm 22 as pointing to the death of Christ, since it is so often quoted in the Passion Narratives of the New Testament. While we will consider the Christological import of the psalm later (under Meaning), this song served as a lament for the people of God during the Old Testament period. The title claims that David wrote the song, and there is no good reason to doubt this tradition. The psalm is a prayer by an individual who feels abandoned by God in the midst of the vicious attack of his enemies, and the historical books of the Old Testament record more than one occasion in David’s life that could have produced such a composition. That said, as usual, the psalm is devoid of specific historical references, because it was written not to create a historical record, but for use by later worshippers in a similar, though not necessarily identical, situation.

The psalm begins by asking God why he has been absent from the psalmist (Psalm 22:1-2), even though Israel praises him and he has rescued his ancestors in the past (Psalm 22:3-5). Since God is absent, the psalmist’s enemies have demeaned him (Psalm 22:6-8). He feels sub-human (v6), even though he has had a relationship with God since birth (Psalm 22:9-11). He then complains about the harmful actions of his enemies, referring to them using animal analogies (bulls, lions, dogs), and notes his fearful response (Psalm 22:11-18). He makes one final appeal for help (Psalm 22:19-21) before concluding his prayer with praise (Psalm 22:22-31).

Although there are more parts to explain this Psalm in his commentary I include 'Meaning' which was referred to in this part.

Meaning
Psalm 22 is a psalm of lament by a person who does not feel the presence of God in the midst of suffering, but rather experiences fear in the face of persecution by enemies. The well-known Christological sense of the psalm (see below) should not distract us from the fact that the psalm is not a prophecy, but rather a lament which may be a model prayer for worshippers today who can use this psalm to call on God to make himself present in the midst of pain. The confidence and joy expressed at the end can impart hope, as the psalmist moves towards God rather than staying mired in disappointment.

Jesus experienced a similar situation when he was attacked by those who hated him, and so he and the Gospel writers used the psalm to articulate his feelings and the events surrounding his crucifixion. First, Psalm 22:18 is cited (Matt 27:35, Mark 15:24, John 19:24) or alluded to (Luke 23:34) in reference to the soldiers who divided the clothes of the condemned Jesus among themselves. He experienced the taunts and saw the derisive shaking of heads of those who passed by the cross (Matt 27:39, Mark 15:29, Luke 23:35, referencing Psalm 22:7-8). Jesus expressed his feeling of divine abandonment by uttering the first verse of Psalm 22 (Matt 27:46, Mark 15:34). The Father loved the Son, but sacrificed himself by withdrawing his special presence from him, so the Son could experience the full force of the meaninglessness of the fallen world. He became a curse in order to redeem us ‘from the curse of the law’ (Gal 3:13). These actual quotations from the first part of Psalm 22 demonstrate that Jesus and the Gospel writers saw how closely this psalm reflects Jesus’ sufferings and death. The psalm ends with praise. For the psalmist, the praise arises because God rescued him from death. Jesus died, but God rescued him by raising him from the dead. Thus Heb 2:11-12 quotes Psalm 22:22 which has Jesus announce,

I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters;
in the assembly I will sing your praises.

Tyndale Commentaries - Psalms.

Crucifiction was invented by the Persians in 300 to 400 BC. David was on the throne 1010 - 970 BC so when the psalm was written that mentioned "they have pierced my hands and my feet" Crucifiction hadn't been invented. So this poses the question; who's hands and feet had been pierced. It couldn't have had anything to do with the psalmist, hands and feet weren't pierced back then. And then alongside that The cry, "My God my God why have you forsaken me.", the words Jesus cried out on the cross, And "They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing" Who had people casting lots for their clothing? I can't recall anyone casting lots for King David's clothes. The poor shall eat and be satisfied, they who seek the Lord will praise him, may your hearts live forever! All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to their Lord and all the families of the nations will bow down before him, for dominion belongs to the Lord and he rules over the nations. does that sound like David? All the ends of the earth were not known back then.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Greetings Trevor

Excellently put my friend

Bless you

 

[Trevor]

Greetings Trevor

Excellently put my friend

Bless you

We do our best Paul, we do our best. regards to your wife, bless you both.

 

[Brother-Paul]

We do our best Paul, we do our best. regards to your wife, bless you both.

And to you and yours Trevor. It is wonderful to be brothers and sisters in Christ, a christian, born from above is never without a true friend.

Jesus loves you, I do too. I wish I could be sure and say, we do too. God's speed my friend, all prayers,are answered, especially those according to God's will. Salvation is his number 1 will for us.

 

[PloughBoy]

Matthew 27:46; My God my God why have you forsaken me.
Luke 23:34; And they devided up his clothes by casting lots
Luke 23:35-36 The people stood watching and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, "He saved others; let him save mimself if he is the Christ of God, the chosen one". The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar and said, "If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself."
'Crucificton'
These

I noticed the omission of the reference to "They have pierced my hands and my feet" The form of capital punishment for God's people in those days were the four executions of the court, Stoning, burning, decapitation and strangulation. Nowhere did anyone die by crucifiction and yet the psalmist referred to the piercing of hands and feet, which was the method used to crucify Jesus. Crucifiction was a method of capital punishment used by the Persians,Seleucids, Carthaginians and Romans

Crucifiction was invented by the Persians in 300 to 400 BC. David was on the throne 1010 - 970 BC so when the psalm was written that mentioned "they have pierced my hands and my feet" Crucifiction hadn't been invented. So this poses the question; who's hands and feet had been pierced. It couldn't have had anything to do with the psalmist, hands and feet weren't pierced back then. And then alongside that The cry, "My God my God why have you forsaken me.", the words Jesus cried out on the cross, And "They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing" Who had people casting lots for their clothing? I can't recall anyone casting lots for King David's clothes. The poor shall eat and be satisfied, they who seek the Lord will praise him, may your hearts live forever! All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to their Lord and all the families of the nations will bow down before him, for dominion belongs to the Lord and he rules over the nations. does that sound like David? All the ends of the earth were not known back then.

When, Christ cried out on the Cross, "My God, my God" that is what we call a "Biblical Motif" because a similar event happen in biblical history. God always have place "Biblical Motifs" for verification through out "Holy Scripture" to encourage us concerning the things to come, and has came. For a lot of "Biblical terms" have lost their luster by modern day bible definitions. And by Modern day "Bible Paraphrases" masquerading under the umbrella of a "modern day Translation".

So i am not in dis agreement with you, in such matters, but in actuality agreement. And trying to refresh the coined wording "a Biblical motif". to its proper position for clarity. for the devil is busy in more ways than one might think. "Technology can be harmful".

 

[Trevor]

When, Christ cried out on the Cross, "My God, my God" that is what we call a "Biblical Motif" because a similar event happen in biblical history. God always have place "Biblical Motifs" for verification through out "Holy Scripture" to encourage us concerning the things to come, and has came. For a lot of "Biblical terms" have lost their luster by modern day bible definitions. And by Modern day "Bible Paraphrases" masquerading under the umbrella of a "modern day Translation".

So i am not in dis agreement with you, in such matters, but in actuality agreement. And trying to refresh the coined wording "a Biblical motif". to its proper position for clarity. for the devil is busy in more ways than one might think. "Technology can be harmful".

I'm glad we're not in disagreement Ploughboy but I do wish you would use words that people can understand, then maybe, I could converse with you, but when you use words that I can't understand you lose me, 'cause I ain't going to a dictionary every time I read your posts. Bless you bro.

 

[PloughBoy]

I'm glad we're not in disagreement Ploughboy but I do wish you would use words that people can understand, then maybe, I could converse with you, but when you use words that I can't understand you lose me, 'cause I ain't going to a dictionary every time I read your posts. Bless you bro.

Believe me, Ii do understand what you are saying, concerning "dictionary". But remember "Trevor", concerning a relationship, "a Biblical Encyclopedia" is one of the greatest "handmaiden" a "Bible" could ever have. And truly "she" has the blessings of God, flowing through her pages and her Queen will surely not get jealous. It will make your eternal life, a little more exciting, so what if you have to move a little bit slower, you have plenty time, and where are you going? You step into "eternity" awhile ago. You might as well pickup a couple of "Nuggets" while you are traveling, you got big pockets now.

Dictionaries was not created for the "world", it was created for "You" [Child of God].

(1 Peter 1}.
10Concerning this salvation, the prophets who foretold the grace to come to you searched and investigated carefully, 11trying to determine the time and setting to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, when they foretold the things now announced by those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.


I do think you did mention "William Tyndale" at some point in a conversation.

 

[Trevor]

Believe me, Ii do understand what you are saying, concerning "dictionary". But remember "Trevor", concerning a relationship, "a Biblical Encyclopedia" is one of the greatest "handmaiden" a "Bible" could ever have. And truly "she" has the blessings of God, flowing through her pages and her Queen will surely not get jealous. It will make your eternal life, a little more exciting, so what if you have to move a little bit slower, you have plenty time, and where are you going? You step into "eternity" awhile ago. You might as well pickup a couple of "Nuggets" while you are traveling, you got big pockets now.

Dictionaries was not created for the "world", it was created for "You" [Child of God].

(1 Peter 1}.
10Concerning this salvation, the prophets who foretold the grace to come to you searched and investigated carefully, 11trying to determine the time and setting to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, when they foretold the things now announced by those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.


I do think you did mention "William Tyndale" at some point in a conversation.

Last time I encountered William Tyndale, I disagreed with his summary. And as for the dictionary, a friend of mine once asked me if I had ever tried the kiss method. When I enquired what the kiss method was, he said 'keep it simple stupid' I tend to use that method these days, bless yoy

 

[PloughBoy]

Last time I encountered William Tyndale, I disagreed with his summary. And as for the dictionary, a friend of mine once asked me if I had ever tried the kiss method. When I enquired what the kiss method was, he said 'keep it simple stupid' I tend to use that method these days, bless yoy

I see i must correct myself again concerning post #137 and #138, The reference was concerning, God's word and the use of Dictionaries, and that Dictionaries are a gift from GOD to his true children. I was not referring to ""William Tyndale" commentary.

I was speaking of "The MAN" and "contributions" he has contribute to "body of Christ". and The English language.

1. "The Man who gave God an English voice" was said of him.

2. He gave us these words and phases, 'these words and phrases are not translations of the "Original Text" They created by "Tyndale" made up words from scratch.

a. "lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil"

b. "seek and you shall find"

c. "judge not that you not be judge"

d. "My Brother's keeper"

e. "passover"

f. "beautiful"

h. "Jehovah"

I. "atonement"

j. "mercy seat"..........etc let there be light, the salt of the earth, ask and it shall be given, the signs of the time....etc the spirit is willing the flesh is weak.

He made up these words and phrases, there are no such words or phrases in any relationship to the "Original Language copied text"

In most likely, every translation of the "Word of God " of the modern printed world that a person has heard, the Flavor of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and been saved has been caress by the penmanship of "William Tyndale".

3. God bless him, To speak and write in 7 different languages fluently as each one was his native language.
a. english
b. French
c. Spanish
d. Greek
e. Hebrew
f. German
h. Italian.

4. He was hung and then revived and burn to the fire stake. For translating the "Holy Scriptures" into the common "English language" HIs famous quote: "When i get through translating the "Holy Scriptures" a mere "Plough Boy" will know more about God than "The Pope of Rome"! "various documentation of that quote went around" and you can imagine why.

So when ever you "read the "KJV" that flavor and tone is not "Shakespearean" that flavor is "Tyndale". HIs dictionary is one of the 1st. and it's relationship is the English bible. and please do not bring up "Wycliffe" he is no match.

I am so sorry for the drifting away from the thread, for i have address "The Reformers" before on another Thread. sorry, I hope this information did not lead anyone astray in harm. Some Biographies are really good.

PS. sometimes i do not want to say anything, but I have my reasons to be frighten not to do so.