Who is “The Shepherd” of the people, who are not “born from above “ but are members of the “Institutionalize church”?

[Sue D.]

John 10 talks about the sheep and says in vs 11 that Jesus Christ is the good shepherd. He is the door of the sheep. vs 9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
vs 10 "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. vs 14 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by them. "

Someone 'coined' the term 'institutionalized church'. Someone doesn't like the idea of the local body of believers. People go to church -- a place to worship God. Nothing wrong with being inside a church building. There is Also the Church.
The Church are all the born again people from all over the world. So -- there is the Local church people meeting in a building AND the universal body of believers. The Church / Bride of Christ/ will be raptured up and out of here sometime in the future.

Those not 'born from above' are the non-believers. The unsaved. Those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. ''

There Are people going to a local church who are not born again. Going to church does Not 'save' a person.

Who is the shepherd of the non-believers? Well -- they don't have one. That doesn't mean they are Bad people. There are a lot of good, moral people in this world. They are not born again people. Their 'father' is the devil. They need to be rescued from that 'father' so that God can be their heavenly Father. And that Jesus Christ can be their good shepherd.

 

[PloughBoy]

The Good Shepherd said: “My sheep”. Knows my voice. Remember the sheep pen. The sheep pen is a fence in holding place, when Shepherds are moving their flock from one place [city] To another. Sometimes in between there is resting place. The many different Shepherds would lead their flocks into that one holding pen. The shepherd would then leave his sheep there, and the “gate keeper”would close the gate. Then the Shepherd of that flock would rest and eat with the other Shepherds who are there.

Then when the Shepherd have finally rested and eaten and ready to leave, he would go to the Pen and the gate keeper would open the gate where all those Sheep are in, And that “particular Shepherd “ would start calling. “HIS” Sheep by name at the gate, they would raise their heads and come to the sound of His voice for they will Not come to a voice of a stranger! For they know the sound of “Their Shepherd” voice, they will not follow another. When Jesus used this illustration the people of that era fully understood its meaning.
Did You?

 

[PloughBoy]

John 10 talks about the sheep and says in vs 11 that Jesus Christ is the good shepherd. He is the door of the sheep. vs 9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
vs 10 "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. vs 14 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by them. "

Someone 'coined' the term 'institutionalized church'. Someone doesn't like the idea of the local body of believers. People go to church -- a place to worship God. Nothing wrong with being inside a church building. There is Also the Church.
The Church are all the born again people from all over the world. So -- there is the Local church people meeting in a building AND the universal body of believers. The Church / Bride of Christ/ will be raptured up and out of here sometime in the future.

Those not 'born from above' are the non-believers. The unsaved. Those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. ''

There Are people going to a local church who are not born again. Going to church does Not 'save' a person.

Who is the shepherd of the non-believers? Well -- they don't have one. That doesn't mean they are Bad people. There are a lot of good, moral people in this world. They are not born again people. Their 'father' is the devil. They need to be rescued from that 'father' so that God can be their heavenly Father. And that Jesus Christ can be their good shepherd.

The church people go to is “institutionalized” it is a institution. It is a non-profit institution with filing papers registration papers. With officers. Filed in a government office. Like other businesses, profit or a non-profit organization.

 

[PloughBoy]

19And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

(Luke 18).



10as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;

11There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;

12They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not, so much as one:

(Romans 3)

 

[Sue D.]

The church people go to is “institutionalized” it is a institution. It is a non-profit institution with filing papers registration papers. With officers. Filed in a government office. Like other businesses, profit or a non-profit organization.

A church body of believers have laws to obey in order to function as a church body. They have a board of deacons as prescribed by Scripture. They have quarterly business meetings for the benefit of church members and who ever else wants to know how every phase of the church is going. A church secretary and treasurer. And so in that respect -- it Is a business of sorts. Nothing in the church is done in secret / behind closed doors. A church is not a 'business' like a shoe store would be. or a grocery store.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

And please, if you can if possible confirm with solid bible references. In other words “sound doctrine”! For the benefit of those who might not understand their position in “eternal life”!

Simple: The "god of this world" / and the "Prince of the power of the air" - i.e. SATAN is their "Shepherd". and they get to spend eternity with him in the Lake of Fire..

 

[Nicola Jane]

And please, if you can if possible confirm with solid bible references. In other words “sound doctrine”! For the benefit of those who might not understand their position in “eternal life”!

well for a simple view if not born again in God then self led by the spirit of disobedience and sinfull flesh even if in church as we all know going to a.church every week doesnt mean you have a personal releationship with jesus x

 

[Brother-Paul]

Greetings,

Who is “The Shepherd” of the people, who are not “born from above “ but are members of the “Institutionalize church”?

do they have one?


Bless you ....><>

If they are not born again, not born from above, they are not saved and as scripture clearly states... they belong to sin, the world and the devil, and their father is the devil.

Shalom

 

[Brother-Paul]

Who is “The Shepherd” of the people, who are not “born from above “ but are members of the “Institutionalize church”?

the title and question of this thread

Who is “The Shepherd” of the people, who are not “born from above “ but are members of the “Institutionalize church”?

One needs to understand who the "who are not “born from above “" are along with who are the "members of the “Institutionalize church”" in order to properly know what the question is, i.e. Who is “The Shepherd” of the people?

Simples, if God is not your father, the devil is.

If you are saved, born again,born from above, Jesus is your Lord and your God, your Saviour, He is the shepherd of the saved.

But if you are not saved, the devil is your father, he is the shepherd of the lost souls, the one who runs when wolves come, Jesus on the other hand loves his sheep, he knows his sheep and his sheep know him.

Sorry on my mobile tonight so no scripture verses added though they are mentioned in the wording above.

Shalom

 

[Br. Bear]

Love and blessings ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Kept by the Shepherd

"Israel served for a wife, and for a wife he kept sheep."—Hosea 12:12. Jacob, while expostulating with Laban, thus describes his own toil, "This twenty years have I been with thee. That which was torn of beasts I brought not unto thee: I bare the loss of it; of my hand didst thou require it...

www.talkjesus.com

 

[Br. Bear]

Love of the Shepherd

Love of the Shepherd Wolves were howling at the door of the fold And the shepherd knew it could never hold It needed repairs and the gate was weak But he had promised to save his sheep His father had told him what he must do To strengthen the fold and make it new Whatever the cost, it must be...

www.talkjesus.com

 

[Brother-Paul]

The church people go to is “institutionalized” it is a institution. It is a non-profit institution with filing papers registration papers. With officers. Filed in a government office. Like other businesses, profit or a non-profit organization.

Also called a charity, which also has to do all the things you list.

A charity is supposed to be a none profit making organisation. It is basically another name for a business with a few benefits businesses don't have, mainly tax concessions.

 

[Brother-Paul]

A church body of believers have laws to obey in order to function as a church body. They have a board of deacons as prescribed by Scripture. They have quarterly business meetings for the benefit of church members and who ever else wants to know how every phase of the church is going. A church secretary and treasurer. And so in that respect -- it Is a business of sorts. Nothing in the church is done in secret / behind closed doors. A church is not a 'business' like a shoe store would be. or a grocery store.

Greeting Sue

The Church is not a business, the ekklesia, born again, born from above souls, but what I believe PB is saying is that the church as a denomination has become a business.

This is what he said,

The church people go to is “institutionalized” it is a institution. It is a non-profit institution with filing papers registration papers. With officers. Filed in a government office. Like other businesses, profit or a non-profit organization.

The church people go to, is not the ekklesia. The ekklesia is the one true Church, the body of Christ, the spiritual stones, saved souls from every country in the world. We, as the ekklesia, do not answer to the denomination, to a committee, or similar. The true church is the body of Christ.

Once a denomination comes together, with rules and regulations for that denomination, it has become institutionalised. Now this suits the governments of the countries of the world, because each denomination and worship group can be brought under the countries tax system. This happened years ago and was very easy to do, once clergy became members of the government bodies, but it has advanced over the years, for accountability to the government for taxes, and by being accountable for taxes they were given incentives. A carrot and horse situation.

They are therefore institutionalised, as a religious group, worshipping in a building a kuriakon, the situation applies to all religions.

But the true church, the ekklesia, is only answerable to God through Jesus. If believers came together in their houses, as the early church did, they would not have to register as a charity, they would not have the building, building maintenance, repairs, renewals, fuel bills, insurance, etc to pay, just the pastor. How much more there would be from the giving to use for God's Glory!

The system we have today has developed over the years, initially by the RCC, and it has been accepted as the norm. That is not how it was in the early church. Now I do appreciate part of the reason for a building was to create a larger place for more people to be able to come together, but also know to groups of believers coming together by renting scout building, schools etc. Interesting really, do I hear the words, well done my good and faithful servants...

The first church, body of saved souls, had low overheads, today is the reverse, todays church has large overheads, taxes to pay and more.

The first church, body of saved believers, was exactly that. Today congregations consist of saved souls and unsaved souls, they call themselves a church, but in reality they are not a church, certainly not an ekklesia, only the saved souls are the ekklesia, the rest in the place of worship, the kuriakon, belong to satan!

No wonder there were large numbers added to the early church daily!

Shalom

 

[B-A-C]

Once a denomination comes together, with rules and regulations for that denomination, it has become institutionalised. Now this suits the governments of the countries of the world, because each denomination and worship group can be brought under the countries tax system. This happened years ago and was very easy to do, once clergy became members of the government bodies, but it has advanced over the years, for accountability to the government for taxes, and by being accountable for taxes they were given incentives. A carrot and horse situation.

They are therefore institutionalised, as a religious group, worshipping in a building a kuriakon, the situation applies to all religions.

But the true church, the ekklesia, is only answerable to God through Jesus. If believers came together in their houses, as the early church did, they would not have to register as a charity, they would not have the building, building maintenance, repairs, renewals, fuel bills, insurance, etc to pay, just the pastor. How much more there would be from the giving to use for God's Glory!

This is good. I myself am against large mega-churches. Not because I don't want thousands of people to congregate and be saved, but because in large churches nobody knows nobody.
If the shepherd knows his sheep, (I'm not talking about God, I'm talking about over-seers, deacons, and laymen) then there gets to be a point where it becomes so large you can't know everyone.
At the same time, I strongly believe believe in the gathering of the saints, communion, fellowship among believers. Accountability, prayers and encouragement for one another.

On the flip side, we have "stand-alone" Christians that watch church on television. They have no accountability to anyone. They pray for no one and no one prays for them (because no one knows they exist).
Their idea of church is reading inspirational facebook memes and perhaps something in a devotional book every now and then, but they have no relationship with other believers at all.

In the US we have tax breaks (501c3) for most churches. But not only churches fall under this... this applies to almost any non-profit organization.
Still even the early church had costs and needs.

Acts 4:32; And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them.
Acts 4:33; And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.
Acts 4:34; For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales
Acts 4:35; and lay them at the apostles' feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.
Acts 4:36; Now Joseph, a Levite of Cyprian birth, who was also called Barnabas by the apostles (which translated means Son of Encouragement),
Acts 4:37; and who owned a tract of land, sold it and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet.

In a way, this is communism. But you hit on an important difference between this and what many in the world want communism to be.
True communism has no leadership, no government. Everyone is equal. The left gets this part better than us conservatives... but where they mess up is...
They want someone to enforce all this... they want a leader, a government, someone to tell them what to do. (other than Jesus/God)
The problem with virtually every communist regime is... first of all the leaders are all rich, while the populace is no longer allowed to own anything.
Second they tell us what to do. To the point where they tell us what kind of medical system to have, what kind of educational system to have, and even..
what kind of religious beliefs to have. Anyone not abiding by these rules is generally imprisoned or killed.

...as a rule... whatever religious beliefs the government has... is enforced upon the people.

 

[B-A-C]

There are some inherent dangers in this form of communal church... I believe it is what God wants, but its a risk many aren't willing to take.

Acts 5:1; But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property,
Acts 5:2; and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife's full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles' feet.
Acts 5:3; But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?
Acts 5:4; "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
Acts 5:5; And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.
Acts 5:6; The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.
Acts 5:7; Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.
Acts 5:8; And Peter responded to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?" And she said, "Yes, that was the price."
Acts 5:9; Then Peter said to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well."
Acts 5:10; And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
Acts 5:11; And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.

If you're going to give to the church, don't lie about what you are giving.

 

[B-A-C]

Mark 12:41; And He sat down opposite the treasury, and began observing how the people were putting money into the treasury; and many rich people were putting in large sums.
Mark 12:42; A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which amount to a cent.
Mark 12:43; Calling His disciples to Him, He said to them, "Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the contributors to the treasury;
Mark 12:44; for they all put in out of their surplus, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she owned, all she had to live on."

Luke 21:1; And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury.
Luke 21:2; And He saw a poor widow putting in two small copper coins.
Luke 21:3; And He said, "Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all of them;
Luke 21:4; for they all out of their surplus put into the offering; but she out of her poverty put in all that she had to live on."

I debated on whether or not to post these scriptures here. On the surface it doesn't seem to have a lot to do with the "institutionalized church".
But I notice my Bible calls this place "the treasury". Seemingly an institution. Some Bibles say "the Temple".
Now I know this could rapidly dissolve into a discussion about tithing and mandatory giving... but that isn't the point here.
However you want to look at it... Jesus commended her for giving to "the institution" of the church.

 

[Sue D.]

@B-A-C -- there are Also many people who watch church services on TV or virtual who don't have any choice. And there are groups that go to Nursing homes for services on regular basis. And it's up to the person as to which they choose to do. Not to sound mean - spirited -- because there are also those who 'find excuses' to by-pass church.

 

[Brother-Paul]

This is good. I myself am against large mega-churches. Not because I don't want thousands of people to congregate and be saved, but because in large churches nobody knows nobody.
If the shepherd knows his sheep, (I'm not talking about God, I'm talking about over-seers, deacons, and laymen) then there gets to be a point where it becomes so large you can't know everyone.
At the same time, I strongly believe believe in the gathering of the saints, communion, fellowship among believers. Accountability, prayers and encouragement for one another.

On the flip side, we have "stand-alone" Christians that watch church on television. They have no accountability to anyone. They pray for no one and no one prays for them (because no one knows they exist).
Their idea of church is reading inspirational facebook memes and perhaps something in a devotional book every now and then, but they have no relationship with other believers at all.

In the US we have tax breaks (501c3) for most churches. But not only churches fall under this... this applies to almost any non-profit organization.
Still even the early church had costs and needs.

Acts 4:32; And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them.
Acts 4:33; And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.
Acts 4:34; For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales
Acts 4:35; and lay them at the apostles' feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.
Acts 4:36; Now Joseph, a Levite of Cyprian birth, who was also called Barnabas by the apostles (which translated means Son of Encouragement),
Acts 4:37; and who owned a tract of land, sold it and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet.

In a way, this is communism. But you hit on an important difference between this and what many in the world want communism to be.
True communism has no leadership, no government. Everyone is equal. The left gets this part better than us conservatives... but where they mess up is...
They want someone to enforce all this... they want a leader, a government, someone to tell them what to do. (other than Jesus/God)
The problem with virtually every communist regime is... first of all the leaders are all rich, while the populace is no longer allowed to own anything.
Second they tell us what to do. To the point where they tell us what kind of medical system to have, what kind of educational system to have, and even..
what kind of religious beliefs to have. Anyone not abiding by these rules is generally imprisoned or killed.

...as a rule... whatever religious beliefs the government has... is enforced upon the people.

Greetings brother,

Thank you for your kind words but, I say this in love, you make a comparison that is not comparable in any way, I repeat I say it in love.

Here we are talking about something you have heard me say many times brother, we need to be looking at the early church, not take for granted the church today, there are distinct differences, the scriptures you quote from Acts I have included in the past, the church today is not as the early church, so many things have changed, by the RCC over the years, by the denominations after the reformation.

Brother Ploughboy is right when he talks of the 'institutionalised church' today. Now at first I though he was referring to the bigger ones, RCC, CofE etc, but in fact it is similar in all denominations, the 'church' 'ekklesia' has allowed itself to get involved in politics! As a result the governments have treated them as charities, eg businesses with tax advantages. The churches today, 'kuriakons' with some 'ekklesia' and some children of the devil, they are 'shackled' with worldly conditions and situations.

You know, the devil is laughing as he sits near the altar during a service, he knows many are his! That was not the early church, the early church was made up of saved souls, that was the ekklesia it should be. No wonder numbers were added to them daily... they were right with God.

Now I take your point and example of communism, but a group of saved souls, coming together in their own homes, the ekklesia, or part of the full body of Christ, cannot compare in any way with communism or their ways. This to me is what a church is and should be. No denomination, not an institutionalised church, but a body of saved souls. How many ministers would do the job today if it wasn't for the pay and perks? I am not saying many don't do it for the love of God through Jesus, but take away the money, home, car, perks and many would not do the job, that is because they view it as a job!

These verses sum up well my friend

Acts 4:32-33
And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them.
And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.

The congregation could not have been of one heart and soul if unsaved souls were amongst them, they were of one heart and soul in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.

Those words speak volumes brother.

Shalom

 

[B-A-C]

Not to sound mean - spirited -- because there are also those who 'find excuses' to by-pass church.

True, I agree with you all you say here. I am less concerned about those in nursing homes and retirement communities because generally they can find at east one or two other believers.