Why being "Good" doesn't get you into Heaven

[Tusk Barnes]

Tusk where in RJ's post is there a personal attack?

Great question, Jiggyfly.

You'll find RJ's personal, or ad hominem attack in the first sentence of his response. Insinuating that because I am not a believer, my ideas are therefore to be discredited. This, of course, is not something that upsets me, and I don't feel hurt by it. All RJ has done is pointed out that he's already made up his mind about me, and likely thinks that since he has beliefs that I lack, we cannot come to an agreement on facts or other areas of thought...Either because he thinks I am too stubborn, or he thinks I have a painful past, or he thinks I am an angry person, or because he hasn't considered the possibility that he is wrong.

He may be correct, though. Perhaps we cannot come to an agreement on anything, because we may just be too different. I certainly hope not, though.

 

[RJ]

Great question, Jiggyfly.

You'll find RJ's personal, or ad hominem attack in the first sentence of his response. Insinuating that because I am not a believer, my ideas are therefore to be discredited. This, of course, is not something that upsets me, and I don't feel hurt by it. All RJ has done is pointed out that he's already made up his mind about me, and likely thinks that since he has beliefs that I lack, we cannot come to an agreement on facts or other areas of thought...Either because he thinks I am too stubborn, or he thinks I have a painful past, or he thinks I am an angry person, or because he hasn't considered the possibility that he is wrong.

He may be correct, though. Perhaps we cannot come to an agreement on anything, because we may just be too different. I certainly hope not, though.

This is a forum for believers and non-believers searching for the truth. Tusk, so far you have exhibited neither because all you want to do is discredit and tear down what believers think.
I have not and will not make my mind up about you because as you live and breathe air, there is a chance for you to come to know the same God I do.
And you just simply don't understand, I am a person who has once tasted the fruit of the Spirit and I know that it is impossible to fall away to the Apostasy that you now live in. You want to believe that you were once truly and completely saved but now, for reasons you won't explain, you now truly have a unchanged heart. I don't dislike you, I don't hate you, I love you, but I hate what you stand for right now.I have no disrespect for you, and you are right, we can never come to an agreement over this because what you offer is darkness and no hope and I will never compromise what I have for that, unless I was never saved in the first place, which is not the case...once a person is truly born of the Spirit, there is no such thing as again becoming unborn; you can not turn to total rejection of the Holy Spirit unless yo were never born of the spirit in the first place, that is what Hebrews 6:4-6 is all about.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

And then you tell me that if someone blatantly continues to sin that he is no Christian at all. All sin is blatant, RJ.

It depends on how you interpret "blatant". Yes, sin is always blatant in terms of being intentional, but it is not always blatant in terms of being intentional and bold or confrontational. I think RJ was assuming the latter interpretation.

If Christ's sacrifice forgives you no matter what you do, then grace is given. If however, you have to act in a certain way in order to actually, really, truly receive this forgiveness, then there IS no forgiveness...it instead becomes a quid pro quo relationship.

"' This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in His name to all nations.... .'" (Lk 24:46-47 NIV)

The grace consists in God making His forgiveness available to us. Repentance has to precede God's forgiveness, otherwise He would be what psychologists call an enabler, one who fails to stand against what He knows to be damaging behavior when an opportunity to take effective action arises.

SLE

 

[Tusk Barnes]

It depends on how you interpret "blatant". Yes, sin is always blatant in terms of being intentional, but it is not always blatant in terms of being intentional and bold or confrontational. I think RJ was assuming the latter interpretation.

I would be willing to grant that, but you must realize that adjusting the definitions of words to fit preconceived notions will eventually degrade those words to arbitrary and meaningless.

"' This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in His name to all nations.... .'" (Lk 24:46-47 NIV)

The grace consists in God making His forgiveness available to us. Repentance has to precede God's forgiveness, otherwise He would be what psychologists call an enabler, one who fails to stand against what He knows to be damaging behavior when an opportunity to take effective action arises.

Interesting idea, definitely. And I certainly do not discount its accuracy. Although, I suppose giving us free will is also a form of enabling.

I'm curious about the verse you mention (Lk 24:46-47). As I understand it, this is Jesus speaking. He declares that, "It is written," but where is it written? I have found no cross-references in any OT Scripture where this is written. Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe it's written somewhere outside of Scripture. Help?

 

[RJ]

Great question, Jiggyfly.

You'll find RJ's personal, or ad hominem attack in the first sentence of his response. Insinuating that because I am not a believer, my ideas are therefore to be discredited. This, of course, is not something that upsets me, and I don't feel hurt by it. All RJ has done is pointed out that he's already made up his mind about me, and likely thinks that since he has beliefs that I lack, we cannot come to an agreement on facts or other areas of thought...Either because he thinks I am too stubborn, or he thinks I have a painful past, or he thinks I am an angry person, or because he hasn't considered the possibility that he is wrong.

He may be correct, though. Perhaps we cannot come to an agreement on anything, because we may just be too different. I certainly hope not, though.

Argumentum ad hominem
ad hominem circumstantial
ad hominem tu quoque
ad hominem abuse

Of the four types of ad hominem, I guess I am now abusive? See, I can use the big words too, but it is much ado about nothing! It does nothing to further your Apostate cause but show that you really have no argument other than you just don't believe and never have.

Yes, it is sin that separates us from God, but that can be better understood, in that, it is our imperfectness that separates us from perfection. All sin is not blatant because for us to be perfect and be in the presence of God , we have to be perfect 24/7 for all eternity; that's going to happen right now. Until that time, we all sin in ways that we don't even understand or know or see it when we do. Do you remember every time that you were negative or doubtful? God is neither negative or doubtful; there is no such thing as that in him. Have you loved every time that you had the opportunity? Can you remember all of those times? God loves perfectly 24/7. No, these types of sins are not blatant, they are just part of being human! That's why God says that not one of us are worthy!...But Christ that lives inside some us is!!

I have no doubt that you can bend this to suite your agenda.
Again, the bottom line: you don't believe and others do, so why don't you just leave it alone and let others here at "Talk Jesus" talk Jesus and others seek him...talk about "ad hominem abuse"!!!

 

[Tusk Barnes]

RJ, your words are like fists.

If this is the love of Jesus, then I'll continue having nothing to do with it. I've already told you countless times, I have no agenda. I could not possibly care any less if you ever changed your beliefs. I am not trying to convince you of anything. That's your job. And you are failing. Please, for the love of Pete, don't tell anyone else that they need to serve a master who makes you feel justified in saying such hurtful, mean things to those you love. Please. You'll be doing everyone, including yourself, a huge favor.

 

[RJ]

RJ, your words are like fists.

If this is the love of Jesus, then I'll continue having nothing to do with it. I've already told you countless times, I have no agenda. I could not possibly care any less if you ever changed your beliefs. I am not trying to convince you of anything. That's your job. And you are failing. Please, for the love of Pete, don't tell anyone else that they need to serve a master who makes you feel justified in saying such hurtful, mean things to those you love. Please. You'll be doing everyone, including yourself, a huge favor.

Go back and look at all your posts. You have done NOTHING for dialogue but tear down anything that anyone tries to say positive about Jesus Christ and our Father in heaven. Show me one thread were you have even considered another's belief in God as being true. Show me one thread were you discussed the hope of your belief, you can't because there is none, you have nothing to offer but negativity and absolutely no hope...who has had the clinched fist here? You want to continually bring on "the heat" with your rejection of the saving power of Jesus Christ, but can tolerate none. I say, "If you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen"!!!! Go find a forum for practicing Atheists!!
The Bible of course teaches love, I challenge you, since your are so knowledgeable in the word of God,show me were the Bible says I have to like you?

Most of us want unbelievers, but unbelievers that are seeking truth and willing to listen or at least acknowledge Jesus , God and the Holy Bible may be truth. I am not interested in anyone who vehemently rejects or blasphemes the Holy Spirit! John the Baptist called such people "Vipers"!

Answer this one question for everyone reading this thread: Tusk, what is you purpose here at Talk Jesus?
Please!! Tusk which is it?:

To learn about Jesus Christ?
To Teach about Jesus Christ?
To Witness in favor of Jesus Christ?
-or-
To tear down Jesus Christ and totally reject the Holy Spirit and God's teachings?

This is your chance Tusk, tell everyone what is truly your purpose here?

 

[RJ]

RJ, your words are like fists.

If this is the love of Jesus, then I'll continue having nothing to do with it. I've already told you countless times, I have no agenda. I could not possibly care any less if you ever changed your beliefs. I am not trying to convince you of anything. That's your job. And you are failing. Please, for the love of Pete, don't tell anyone else that they need to serve a master who makes you feel justified in saying such hurtful, mean things to those you love. Please. You'll be doing everyone, including yourself, a huge favor.

Please take my previous thread to yours above and show me and everyone else where I am so mean and hurtful!

 

[Tusk Barnes]

Go back and look at all your posts. You have done NOTHING for dialogue but tear down anything that anyone tries to say positive about Jesus Christ and our Father in heaven. Show me one thread were you have even considered another's belief in God as being true. Show me one thread were you discussed the hope of your belief, you can't because there is none, you have nothing to offer but negativity and absolutely no hope...who has had the clinched fist here? You want to continually bring on "the heat" with your rejection of the saving power of Jesus Christ, but can tolerate none. I say, "If you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen"!!!! Go find a forum for practicing Atheists!!
The Bible of course teaches love, I challenge you, since your are so knowledgeable in the word of God,show me were the Bible says I have to like you?

Most of us want unbelievers, but unbelievers that are seeking truth and willing to listen or at least acknowledge Jesus , God and the Holy Bible may be truth. I am not interested in anyone who vehemently rejects or blasphemes the Holy Spirit! John the Baptist called such people "Vipers"!

Answer this one question for everyone reading this thread: Tusk, what is you purpose here at Talk Jesus?
Please!! Tusk which is it?:

To learn about Jesus Christ?
To Teach about Jesus Christ?
To Witness in favor of Jesus Christ?
-or-
To tear down Jesus Christ and totally reject the Holy Spirit and God's teachings?

This is your chance Tusk, tell everyone what is truly your purpose here?

I have NEVER torn down a person, sir. I have done everything for dialogue, here. I have asked questions in my search for truth (Which, if you are correct, should lead me to Jesus). And when the answers come, they beg further questions. They beg for clarification. I attack ideas. I attack notions. I attack statements. You're BELIEF in God is true. You truly believe in God. I get that. I acknowledge that of everyone on this forum. But just because you truly believe does not mean that the thing you believe in is actually real. I attack things people claim as truth or fact, when they have not been demonstrated as truth or fact.

You, however, attack my person. You say that because I am an unbeliever, I am foolish. You say that because I am an unbeliever now, I am a liar to say that I was ever a believer before. I have never said anything this personally degrading to you or anyone on this website. Scour my threads if you like. Name one time I have said words that harmed anything but a notion. You won't. I have never ridiculed you, because ridicule is unnecessary. You've already such done a fine job of making yourself look silly and proud of ignorance that there is no reason for me to add insult to injury. I have never said, "Because you're a believer, you're deluded and superstitious." I have never said, "You're no better than the Pharisees," because I don't need to. You're fruits are obvious, but your belief has never been a discredit to you, at least in my eyes. You can believe or not believe anything you wish. But don't for a second think that everyone else must also believe what you wish.

If anything, I have encouraged most people here to ponder WHY they believe what they believe. You're saying that because I am not like you, I should just leave this website? You have obviously learned a lot from Jesus.

You consider my rejection of the saving power of Jesus Christ as "bringing the heat." Well, you have failed to show me this saving power of Jesus Christ. I don't know what you were like before you met Him, but if this is the "changed man" that this free gift makes you, I want nothing to do with it.

Why am I here at TJ? Before God and everyone reading this thread, I answer with Option 1. To learn about Jesus Christ. And you have already made it abundantly clear that I am not going to learn anything about Him from you. You will not be receiving my "testimony" because communicating with you has proved to be a pain in the neck.

I don't care whether you believe I was ever truly a Christian, because I already know I was never like you. And if there is a God, I hope I get a chance to thank Him for that someday.

You can call that a personal attack, if you want to. There's something I did learn from you.

 

[RJ]

I have NEVER torn down a person, sir. I have done everything for dialogue, here. I have asked questions in my search for truth (Which, if you are correct, should lead me to Jesus). And when the answers come, they beg further questions. They beg for clarification. I attack ideas. I attack notions. I attack statements. You're BELIEF in God is true. You truly believe in God. I get that. I acknowledge that of everyone on this forum. But just because you truly believe does not mean that the thing you believe in is actually real. I attack things people claim as truth or fact, when they have not been demonstrated as truth or fact.

You, however, attack my person. You say that because I am an unbeliever, I am foolish. You say that because I am an unbeliever now, I am a liar to say that I was ever a believer before. I have never said anything this personally degrading to you or anyone on this website. Scour my threads if you like. Name one time I have said words that harmed anything but a notion. You won't. I have never ridiculed you, because ridicule is unnecessary. You've already such done a fine job of making yourself look silly and proud of ignorance that there is no reason for me to add insult to injury. I have never said, "Because you're a believer, you're deluded and superstitious." I have never said, "You're no better than the Pharisees," because I don't need to. You're fruits are obvious, but your belief has never been a discredit to you, at least in my eyes. You can believe or not believe anything you wish. But don't for a second think that everyone else must also believe what you wish.

If anything, I have encouraged most people here to ponder WHY they believe what they believe. You're saying that because I am not like you, I should just leave this website? You have obviously learned a lot from Jesus.

You consider my rejection of the saving power of Jesus Christ as "bringing the heat." Well, you have failed to show me this saving power of Jesus Christ. I don't know what you were like before you met Him, but if this is the "changed man" that this free gift makes you, I want nothing to do with it.

Why am I here at TJ? Before God and everyone reading this thread, I answer with Option 1. To learn about Jesus Christ. And you have already made it abundantly clear that I am not going to learn anything about Him from you. You will not be receiving my "testimony" because communicating with you has proved to be a pain in the neck.

I don't care whether you believe I was ever truly a Christian, because I already know I was never like you. And if there is a God, I hope I get a chance to thank Him for that someday.

You can call that a personal attack, if you want to. There's something I did learn from you.

O.K., you turn and twist to the truth make yourself to be the poor abused, and I the ad hominem abuser!
You have now gone from Atheist and all out rejection of Jesus Christ to now your the poor abused little Agnostic, simply looking for the truth. Why is it then that you have done nothing but take an opposite and atheistic view of everything presented to you, instead of searching out further discussion of a Biblical principle or truth to you. No, you have done nothing but reject the truth. You need to look at the forum rules, you are not to use T.J. for posting opposite views to positive discussions about Christ, God and the Bible, you have done nothing but apply negative and opposite rebuttals to what say positively about Jesus Christ.

You said:

If anything, I have encouraged most people here to ponder WHY they believe what they believe. You're saying that because I am not like you, I should just leave this website? You have obviously learned a lot from Jesus.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. How is it, when a person gives you a statement or principle that they believe is truth about God and you give the opposite and negative view, how is it that you can distort that as encouraging them? The mere audacity!!!!
You consider my rejection of the saving power of Jesus Christ as "bringing the heat." Well, you have failed to show me this saving power of Jesus Christ. I don't know what you were like before you met Him, but if this is the "changed man" that this free gift makes you, I want nothing to do with it.
IT IS NOT MY JOB TO SHOW YOU THE SAVING POWER, that is what Jesus does, but you are not here looking for that!!!. Before I met him, I could have cared less about you or whether you were saved or not or your Apostasy.
You, however, attack my person. You say that because I am an unbeliever, I am foolish.
You just don't really get it do you? I didn't attack you on this, the Bible does. I never said you were foolish, God did!!!

Show me one thread where you stated a positive about Jesus Christ rather than the totally negative towards Jesus Christ. Show me one little thread where you expressed a learning desire for a positive that Jesus Christ provides, rather you always discredit and take the negative and the want to make us believe that you are here to be positive and learn!!!

Don't respond to me, I am one person in millions upon millions.
Respond to this one last question: Do you think that Jesus Christ is real and that he could possibly love you more than anyone in the universe?

One last thing. To show you and others how you constantly twist the truth to further you cause. As with you opening statement above: I NEVER said that you tear down people as you state. I said that you constantly tear down the truth that they are trying to say.....big difference my friend!

 

[Tusk Barnes]

Do you think that Jesus Christ is real and that he could possibly love you more than anyone in the universe?

Not yet....

 

[RJ]

12-08-10, 02:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Do you think that Jesus Christ is real and that he could possibly love you more than anyone in the universe?
Not yet....

Dubitando ad veritatem venimus.
Not Yet?
Oopps! I am so sorry. I thought you told me in some of your original threads that you had already tasted the fruits of the Spirit. That you knew God and Jesus well with a good relationship but then you turned away. I don't know where I got that? I will go back see what it was that you originally said about that and post a prompt apology!!

 

[Tusk Barnes]

Not Yet?
Oopps! I am so sorry. I thought you told me in some of your original threads that you had already tasted the fruits of the Spirit. That you knew God and Jesus well with a good relationship but then you turned away. I don't know where I got that? I will go back see what it was that you originally said about that and post a prompt apology!!

Your passive aggression is silly.

You asked "Do I?"

You did not ask "Did I?"

 

[RJ]

Your passive aggression is silly.

You asked "Do I?"

You did not ask "Did I?"

Aggression, aggression, aggression...you are your own aggression heat seeking missile !!! LOL!!
Look, if you do sense aggression via the cyber-net, it is not at you personally but your stance on unbelief. You take it personally, I am sorry for that. You say that you were once saved but now have turned away, I simply say that is impossible. You say that you once was in the Spirit and now have changed your belief, but you won't say what caused such a dramatic change, what caused you to go from believing and loving Jesus to not believing and loving Jesus, that is a conundrum for me. It is sad to me, I do care and would really like to know, can you just PM me the answer, I will not tell anyone!!

If you are , in fact here at T.J. to really find out if you are currently right about you unbelief, all I can tell you is that I am not looking. I am absolutely convinced that God, Jesus and the Bible holds the keys to the Universe and a life of unimaginable wonders.

I understand that you don'y want my help, that's O.K. but if you truly and honestly don't want or need anyones help, you really need to leave T.J. . But, on the other hand, if you are seeking, find someone that you can PM a beneficial dialogue and start there. As you build this relationship open up to that person and be honest why you have changed your position. Tell them the reasons you don't believe, just keep it positive and not a constant negative rebuttal.

Best Wishes for you Tusk!

 

[SpiritLedEd]

I would be willing to grant that, but you must realize that adjusting the definitions of words to fit preconceived notions will eventually degrade those words to arbitrary and meaningless.




Interesting idea, definitely. And I certainly do not discount its accuracy. Although, I suppose giving us free will is also a form of enabling.

I'm curious about the verse you mention (Lk 24:46-47). As I understand it, this is Jesus speaking. He declares that, "It is written," but where is it written? I have found no cross-references in any OT Scripture where this is written. Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe it's written somewhere outside of Scripture. Help?

The reference is to Isaiah 53 which, to my knowledge, theologians of all Christian denominations recognize as a Messianic Prophesy.

SLE

 

[RJ]

I would be willing to grant that, but you must realize that adjusting the definitions of words to fit preconceived notions will eventually degrade those words to arbitrary and meaningless.




Interesting idea, definitely. And I certainly do not discount its accuracy. Although, I suppose giving us free will is also a form of enabling.

I'm curious about the verse you mention (Lk 24:46-47). As I understand it, this is Jesus speaking. He declares that, "It is written," but where is it written? I have found no cross-references in any OT Scripture where this is written. Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe it's written somewhere outside of Scripture. Help?

Actually Tusk, since you are here solely to learn the truth about Jesus, there are many references to Luke 24:46-47 through out the Old and New Testament. In fact, this this one of the greatest, if not the most important, truths that the Bible has to offer to man!

Our Lord and Savior has told us that He came not to do away with the Law but to fulfill it, and this is it. The Prophecy that he would die for the sins of the world, would be buried which puts his will of our inheritance in force and his resurrection that gives us salvation and eternal life, which is the keys to the universe. This truth was born from the Law, given to man as part of the Law and was the only transition factor between the Law and Grace!

 

[Tusk Barnes]

[/COLOR]

Actually Tusk, since you are here solely to learn the truth about Jesus, there are many references to Luke 24:46-47 through out the Old and New Testament. In fact, this this one of the greatest, if not the most important, truths that the Bible has to offer to man!

Many references? I've found none written, yet. Where is it written? Being written in the New Testament means little because most of the NT was written after Jesus said this. Since He says, "written (past tense)" it would have to already have been written for His statement to be true. So that leaves us with what is already written...the OT. So, where in the OT is this written?

And I understand you claim the Bible is true, but I do not believe you yet. Why is it true? What about it is true?

Our Lord and Savior has told us that He came not to do away with the Law but to fulfill it, and this is it. The Prophecy that he would die for the sins of the world, would be buried which puts his will of our inheritance in force and his resurrection that gives us salvation and eternal life, which is the keys to the universe. This truth was born from the Law, given to man as part of the Law and was the only transition factor between the Law and Grace!

Where is this prophecy you keep mentioning?

 

[Tusk Barnes]

The reference is to Isaiah 53 which, to my knowledge, theologians of all Christian denominations recognize as a Messianic Prophesy.

SLE

I used to believe that was the prophecy Jesus was referring to, as well. But upon closer reading, Isaiah makes no mention of any resurrection. Isaiah does mention that the suffering servant will have offspring. Jesus, traditionally at least had no offspring. Jesus said His resurrection after 3 days was foretold (although Friday afternoon to Sunday morning can hardly be called 3 days).

If it is written, it's not in this Isaiah prophecy.

 

[RJ]

Many references? I've found none written, yet. Where is it written? Being written in the New Testament means little because most of the NT was written after Jesus said this. Since He says, "written (past tense)" it would have to already have been written for His statement to be true. So that leaves us with what is already written...the OT. So, where in the OT is this written?

You can keep picking things to death to just satisfy you unbelief. All these verses are Messianic are are written prophecies of His coming and his mission to save and they all support Luke 24:47-48:
Gen 12:3, Psalm 22:27, ISA 2:2, 49:6, Hos 2:23, Mal 1:11.
These are only a few and each have many cross references of their own.

And I understand you claim the Bible is true, but I do not believe you yet. Why is it true? What about it is true?
You first! Pm with details how you were a believer once and what caused you to change!



Where is this prophecy you keep mentioning?

Matthew 5:17 (New International Version, ©2010)

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

 

[SaviorNChrist]

I would be willing to grant that, but you must realize that adjusting the definitions of words to fit preconceived notions will eventually degrade those words to arbitrary and meaningless.




Interesting idea, definitely. And I certainly do not discount its accuracy. Although, I suppose giving us free will is also a form of enabling.

I'm curious about the verse you mention (Lk 24:46-47). As I understand it, this is Jesus speaking. He declares that, "It is written," but where is it written? I have found no cross-references in any OT Scripture where this is written. Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe it's written somewhere outside of Scripture. Help?

I have been following this thread quietly for a while now but feel I could help shed some light on your question about "where it is written".

From my study, the "it is written" is a declarative statement of inspiration such as 2 Tim 3:16.

These disciples did not initially believe it was Jesus resurrected, they thought he was a ghost. If you read verse 44, Jesus is referring to the law of Moses (Exodus), the prophets, and psalms (Psalm 22) concerning him; his death, burial, and resurrection, as well as the gospel to be preached in his name throughout the world (vv 47).

Therefore, it is my belief that "it is written" was again a declarative statement of the Holy inspiration of the words which were brought up from the law, prophets, and psalms.

If I am off-base, I'd be glad to hear how as I know iron-sharpens-iron, but I truly believe this is what is being referenced prior to his ascension to heaven.

Thank you and God bless!