Why do we call jesus the son of god if he is god?

[servoguy]

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

I think the Bible makes it very clear that the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit are 3 distinct persons even though they are one God.

Isaiah 53:10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,

We see here that it pleased the LORD (the Father) to bruise him (Jesus)

Many times Jesus referred to His Father. Even though Jesus and the Father are one, they are also 2 persons, not one.

The Lord's prayer should make this obvious.

It can get confusing because we are humans and have no experience with three persons being one God except for the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

In spiritual things, it frequently occurs that one must accept something that one cannot understand. Example: God created the heavens and the earth and everything by speaking. How does this work? I have no idea.

Bruce Baker

 

[evstevemd]

I think the Bible makes it very clear that the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit are 3 distinct persons even though they are one God.

Isaiah 53:10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,

We see here that it pleased the LORD (the Father) to bruise him (Jesus)

Many times Jesus referred to His Father. Even though Jesus and the Father are one, they are also 2 persons, not one.

The Lord's prayer should make this obvious.

I agree with you. Jesus said that no one have seen the father except the son. How could He say that if they are one and the same. Yet in John 17 he prays for unity of believer as of His and His Father....on...and..on

It can get confusing because we are humans and have no experience with three persons being one God except for the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

In spiritual things, it frequently occurs that one must accept something that one cannot understand. Example: God created the heavens and the earth and everything by speaking. How does this work? I have no idea.

Bruce Baker

No way Bruce, we just close our eyes :wink:
Here is imperfect example, we have soul, body and spirit on the same human. Sounds to me like reflection of God. Soul is not body neither body spirit, but one person

 

[servoguy]

I agree with you, and would like to further comment that we are spirit, soul, and body, and that you somehow know that you and your body are not the same. We speak of "my body." We somehow know that we are not our bodies. Our body is the carrying case for our soul and our spirit. IMHO, "I" is my soul. My spirit is in communication with God (if I am born again), and my spirit is always trying to get my soul to conform to God's will.

God Bless
Bruce

 

[SpiritLedEd]

We see here that it pleased the LORD (the Father) to bruise him (Jesus)

Perhaps I'm being a being a bit anal, but, I think its important to point out that when the King James Bible says "It pleased God to bruise him"(Is 53:10), the term does not mean that God is sadistic, as some of His detractors like to portray Him.

SLE

 

[BlueRidgeNC]

No one shall get to the Father but by me

Jesus never professed to be God but to be the Son of God.

This should not be a source of division(as many Christians still argue, some Trinitarian,some Unitarian) but a reason to ask God himself for your own personal clarity.
Some "argue" saying a 3 in 1 God but the Bible when taken back into the Greek and Hebrew show 1 God , 1 Son and a gift of Spirit.
Just as we do not pray to the Holy Spirit, it is a gift that is bestowed.
Jesus showed us how to pray to the Father when asked..and in Jesus's name your lips to God's ear.

If you do a search into the early texts there are no references to a "Trinity". The word or concept of a Trinity did not show up until 4th Century AD.

In any case, pray and ask for clarity, it should never be a cause for division and no argument made in either side. Once clarity is given I promise the issue will never confuse you. Even if worshipping with a group in the Body who may have not been given that clarity you will know in your heart what has been revealed to you and it will not matter.
Study, not only will it help on this one issue but it will strengthen your faith in all situations.

There will be a time and a place for all Christians to know all, Great Mysteries and small..in the meantime welcome to the Body..1 Body in Christ, our Lord and Savior who died on the Cross for our sins.

There is no "religion" or denomination on this Earth who can profess to have all the correct answers or interpretations, if we lived in the times of the 1st century with the guidance of the apostles it would be different. The most important thing is to edify the Body.. all of us, near and far, if your name is written in the book of life then you know where you are going..no reserved in Heaven's seating because we worshiped with the Baptists or the Presbyterians...

Think of it this way...we all get to Church a different way.. either by car, bus or walking...we arrive that's what is important..now, if you are riding in a car and it's raining..the testament of a good Christian is to pick people up along the way to share the ride.

 

[evstevemd]

Jesus never professed to be God but to be the Son of God.

I have questions for you:
1. May I know why you think that is true?
2. May you explain why Jews, in many occasions wanted to Stone him?
3. May you explain why the Sanhedrin pressed for His crucifixion
4. Would you explain what Jesus meant by the verse below?

and Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

(Matthew 16:13-19)

This should not be a source of division(as many Christians still argue, some Trinitarian,some Unitarian) but a reason to ask God himself for your own personal clarity.

I disagree too! If the "Jesus" of unitarianism is not one with the Father, then he is another "Jesus". Jesus of the Bible matches trinitarians' and hence true Jesus. Even eternal destiny of ALL men hinges on Identity of Jesus. why then would you say it not be source of division? It should be, it is and it is worthy it!

We cannot ask God questions which He have answered 2000+ years ago. That is called laziness. We have to study these things

Some "argue" saying a 3 in 1 God but the Bible when taken back into the Greek and Hebrew show 1 God , 1 Son and a gift of Spirit.
Just as we do not pray to the Holy Spirit, it is a gift that is bestowed.
Jesus showed us how to pray to the Father when asked..and in Jesus's name your lips to God's ear.

Which bible are you referring to?
Holy Spirit has gifts but He is Himself a Person. We can say that He is a gift meaning that, a person that God gave us to help us, while we didn't deserve him. I mean He is "He" not "It"

If you do a search into the early texts there are no references to a "Trinity". The word or concept of a Trinity did not show up until 4th Century AD.

The word is not an issue. the concept is there! Who was God finding counsel from when He was wanted to make a Man? It is thousands of years old, not just centuries :shock:

In any case, pray and ask for clarity, it should never be a cause for division and no argument made in either side. Once clarity is given I promise the issue will never confuse you. Even if worshipping with a group in the Body who may have not been given that clarity you will know in your heart what has been revealed to you and it will not matter.
Study, not only will it help on this one issue but it will strengthen your faith in all situations.

I agree we should discuss it with open heart and mind. But If one knows that he is wrong but he refuses to follow the truth, it is worthy of dividing! If one wants to learn, then I'm in for it but not the other way

There will be a time and a place for all Christians to know all, Great Mysteries and small..in the meantime welcome to the Body..1 Body in Christ, our Lord and Savior who died on the Cross for our sins.

Even His death at the cross is meaningless for anyone who thinks Jesus is not God. That is, if Jesus is not different person from the Father, Who then executed our judgement on Jesus at the cross? If He is just created man, He is not able to pay our infinite debt of sins we awere to pay forever in hell. I mean it takes infinite God to pay infinite debt!

There are many things we'll get answer at the feet of king Jesus. but there are some that we already have. All we need to do is drop our laziness and jump in studies

There is no "religion" or denomination on this Earth who can profess to have all the correct answers or interpretations,

Wrong!
Chrisianity is the religion and Bible have the answers!
Its meaning is plain and our ignorance or misinterpretation is not excuse to raise such assertion

if we lived in the times of the 1st century with the guidance of the apostles it would be different.

Wrong again!
Apostles weren't infallible. They were men like me and you. Holy Spirit in them was the one making difference and the fact is, He is available even today. The problem is out of whether Apostles are here or no. The issue is whether we obey Him or not, His words or People's words

The most important thing is to edify the Body.. all of us, near and far, if your name is written in the book of life then you know where you are going..no reserved in Heaven's seating because we worshiped with the Baptists or the Presbyterians...

While I agree with that, how are we going to edify each other given your assumption that there is no correct religion? Since Perfect God cannot author imperfect religion, you are indirectly claiming that there is NO true religion in the world. So are we to be edified by Koran or the bible, may be Bhagavad Gita or Upanishads?

Think of it this way...we all get to Church a different way.. either by car, bus or walking...we arrive that's what is important..now, if you are riding in a car and it's raining..the testament of a good Christian is to pick people up along the way to share the ride.

As long as you believe the bible is accurate infallible Word of God, that Jesus is God, one with the Father and the Spirit and all that Bible teaches, I don't care your label.

God bless you!

 

[jiggyfly]

Jesus never professed to be God but to be the Son of God.

This should not be a source of division(as many Christians still argue, some Trinitarian,some Unitarian) but a reason to ask God himself for your own personal clarity.
Some "argue" saying a 3 in 1 God but the Bible when taken back into the Greek and Hebrew show 1 God , 1 Son and a gift of Spirit.
Just as we do not pray to the Holy Spirit, it is a gift that is bestowed.
Jesus showed us how to pray to the Father when asked..and in Jesus's name your lips to God's ear.

I think I understand where your coming from but try not to neglect other scriptures in the process.
Jesus did give us instruction on prayer. But He also said, "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, [fn] who will never leave you. He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world at large cannot receive him, because it isn't looking for him and doesn't recognize him. But you do, because he lives with you now and later will be in you." (John 14:16&17)

Paul said, "And the Holy Spirit helps us in our distress. For we don't even know what we should pray for, nor how we should pray. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words." (Romans 8:26)

Paul also said, "And do not bring sorrow to God's Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he is the one who has identified you as his own, guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30)

Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself."

And Peter said, "And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."

So according to the scriptures HolySpirit is something (someone) that can lead, comfort, counsel, and pray for us, HolySpirit can be grieved, and lied to and HolySpirit is a witness along with us.
To me it sure sounds like HolySpirit is a lot more than what you have presented.:wink:

 

[evstevemd]

I think I understand where your coming from but try not to neglect other scriptures in the process.
Jesus did give us instruction on prayer. But He also said, "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, [fn] who will never leave you. He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world at large cannot receive him, because it isn't looking for him and doesn't recognize him. But you do, because he lives with you now and later will be in you." (John 14:16&17)

Paul said, "And the Holy Spirit helps us in our distress. For we don't even know what we should pray for, nor how we should pray. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words." (Romans 8:26)

Paul also said, "And do not bring sorrow to God's Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he is the one who has identified you as his own, guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30)

Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself."

And Peter said, "And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."

So according to the scriptures HolySpirit is something (someone) that can lead, comfort, counsel, and pray for us, HolySpirit can be grieved, and lied to and HolySpirit is a witness along with us.
To me it sure sounds like HolySpirit is a lot more than what you have presented.:wink:

I agree 100% and may I add to Acts 5

3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

So not only Holy Spirit is separate from the Father thread owner have said and Is a person as Jigyfly has demonstrated but also GOD

 

[BlueRidgeNC]

Intolerance in God's word

This debate has been around since 1st century. So much so that Man..not by Devine inspiration but in an effort to save the Roman Empire decided a council of Man would end the debate to save the Empire and the Catholic Church.
Thus it is doctrine, by man.
The Holy Spirit of God lives in all Christians. To say that it is a person to be worshipped is doctrine.Jesus Christ was the Son of God and does not sit on his own right hand, but the right hand of the Father and 1 true God. "No one shall get to the Father but by me" not "No one shall get to me but through me"
Again, the "Trinity" was invented by men in an effort to help a religious orginization, the same Religious that knee's and prays to "Saints".
"No one shall get to the Father but by me". That is why we pray in Jesus's name.

To imply laziness by asking God something is the defending of man made doctrine.

To question the Doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church was labeled as "Heresy", and even backed by scripture the Roman Catholic Church only cared about protecting what was in the 4th Century a failing Empire.

The Roman Catholic Church is why we have so many "religions" today. A group of men took it upon themselves to vilify Mary Magdeline(if you research MM in the Greek and Hebrew she was not a prostitute, that was designed by the Catholic Bishops to avoid the appearance of impropriety).
The Arian heresy had infected parts of the Church all the way from Alexandria through Palestine, Syria, Asia minor to Greece. It was bad enough that it viciated the very heart of Christian doctrine from within, but there was also danger that it would weaken the Empire itself, and so Constantine, who was trying hard to consolidate the Empire, took an active part in trying to solve the matter. He called for a council of bishops of the Church. At first it appeared that he had in mind only the Eastern bishops since he first designated Ancyra in Galatia (Ankara in Turkey) as a place for the bishops to assemble. Arianism had particularly divided the Church there. But this would make it difficult for himself to attend, and besides it might be good for other bishops to attend, those not necessarily involved in the controversy. Hence Nicaea in Bithynia was finally selected; it was close to the sea making it easier for more bishops to attend, he had there a large palace compound, both to house the bishops and with a great hall in which they could assemble, and he could keep an eye on them from nearby Nicomedia.

The big thing which happened was the Nicene Creed, but in this way:

Most held out at first for a Scriptural language and expression to make clear against the Arians what the catholic doctrine had been, but as the discussions progressed it became evident that there was no Scriptural vocabulary which would correctly express the orthodox teaching. They lighted on a philosophical term, homoosios (same substance as) to express what they meant and what had always been the catholic teaching, but there was still needed a formula to summarize and convey their meaning. Of all bishops, Eusebius of Caesarea, who had been clobbered by the synod at Antioch the year before, produced a creed he used in his church. As far as it went, it was acceptable to the rest of the bishops, but they made additions in order to make it very clear that Arius' position was not what they espoused. This creed would be further amended by the First Council of Constantinople, and hence is technically known as the "Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed", but maybe it should be known as the Caesarean-Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.

Here it is beneficial to explain something councils do, almost as a byproduct. Primarily a council's purpose, at least a dogmatic council, is to proclaim with unmistakable clarity a doctrine already a part of the teaching of the Church. But at Nicaea there were not a few bishops, well-intentioned and open to the Spirit, who actually would have been hard pressed themselves to give a clear explanation of the relationship of the Son to the Father. But because they had humility and good will they learned from the discussions of the Council, at the same time that they were a part of the council process. Hence a council can also teach bishops. All of the bishops present signed the Creed, except two, Secundus of Ptolemais and Theonas of Marmarica. Constantine banished them along with Arius (whom he later recalled).


Among other things they also settled (they thought) was the date of Easter. While most celebrated Easter on a Sunday to commemorate the resurrection, there were a few who celebrated on weekdays (even Good Friday) according to a Jewish reckoning (the Quartodeciman controversy addressed by Pope Victor, 189-198), and those who did observe Sunday did not all observe on the same Sunday. Constantine wanted, as did most bishops, a universal observance. To this very day it is disputed what the council fathers meant by their decision, and Easter is still observed variously, but the points of their decree supposed by most are: 1) Easter should be celebrated on the same day by all (a point all agree was contained in the decree); 2) Jewish custom was not the criterion to be followed (a point which is not cited by the Greeks, but strongly mentioned both in the writings which preceded the council and in Eusebius' report of it); and 3) that the practice of Rome and Alexandria (then West and Egypt) should remain in force, namely the Sunday after the first full moon of the vernal equinox (the Creeks do not cite the first half of this point, only the second). But even Alexandria and Rome did not agree for a long time, due to calculations (miscalculations) as to the date of the vernal equinox. Rome celebrated the equinox on March 18, and Alexandria on March 23. Since this is something scientific, that is, half way between the shortest and the longest day of the year, it could be and was eventually solved by the devising of various cycles, so that a fixed day in the lunar calendar (14th of Nisan) would occur according to a predetermined pattern in the Julian calendar. Today Greeks and other Orthodox maintain that the Roman date of Easter is wrong, saying that the Nicene Council stipulated that the Resurrection must always be celebrated after the Jewish Passover.

Now it must be remembered that only incomplete records of canons and decrees exist from the Council at Nicaea. What we actually have is the Creed, the disciplinary action against the Arians, 20 disciplinary canons, a letter to the Alexandrian church, and a list of the bishops present (a list which varies from language to language).

The rest of the canons (if authentic at all) have been garnered from other sources, including Arabic writings. In thus citing Nicea about Easter coming after the Jewish Passover, the Greeks must have sources which are not commonly known, and stronger sources than the west is aware. For example, Eusebius of Caesarea writing just after the Council quotes from the letter of Emperor Constantine to all who were not present at the Council,

". . .relative to the sacred festival of Easter. . . it was declared to be particularly unworthy for this holiest of all festivals to follow the custom of the Jews. We ought not therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews. We desire to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews for it is surely shameful for us to hear the Jews boast that without their direction we could not keep this feast. In their blindness, they frequently celebrate two Passovers in the same year. . . How then could we follow these Jews. . . for to celebrate the Passover twice in one year is totally inadmissible ."

"Heresy" was the term now being used to describe what many fomer priests and bishops had been teaching.

"God is One, without partners" seems to be the theme throughout the Old Testament. But now suddenly when the pagan Romans are about to make Christianity the offical church of the Holy Empire, the need to rethink the concept of God arises.

A God-Man and Man-God seem to fit right in with the "former pagan" concept of their 'gods on earth.'

Could this explain the source for "Trinity?"

"Trinity" does not appear anywhere in the Old Testament or the New Testament.

Even the phrase, "And these two are one" (First Epistle of John, Chapter 5, verse 7) is fabricated and based on the verse prior to it.
[see: Revised Standard Version of the Bible, 1952 and History of Translations of Bible to the English Language, F. F. Bruce).

If it is laziness to ask God to lead me in study then I am lazy. If I believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins, changed administrations from the Law to our current administration of Grace by his blood then evidently I am a heretic because I do not follow man made doctrine..nor will I. The word of God is just that, the inspired word of God..that is the only reference I will ever refer to..never a council of men protecting a man made doctrine or a belief structure meant to insure a "religion" lives on.
Again, study, in the Greek and Hebrew. Even the dates of Christs birth and Death were manipulated by the Roman Catholic Church(the "3 wise men" were actually ancient astronomers known as " Magi" and were in that area of the ancient calender in mid September, not December as the Catholic Church made it..it was changed to compete with Pagan holidays and even incorporated Pagan ritual of giving gifts leading to why Christmas is commercial, not just celebrating the Birth of the Savior but as a retail time of sales...the Jews have it right on that one..would todays youth be satisfied with a handmade spinning top instead of an x-box..lol?

Again, the devil will use this issue if it is allowed to divide Christians. It is an issue that can only be clarified in study and prayer, and in prayer to God in Jesus's name.

 

[evstevemd]

This debate has been around since 1st century. So much so that Man..not by Devine inspiration but in an effort to save the Roman Empire decided a council of Man would end the debate to save the Empire and the Catholic Church.
Thus it is doctrine, by man.
The Holy Spirit of God lives in all Christians. To say that it is a person to be worshipped is doctrine.Jesus Christ was the Son of God and does not sit on his own right hand, but the right hand of the Father and 1 true God. "No one shall get to the Father but by me" not "No one shall get to me but through me"
Again, the "Trinity" was invented by men in an effort to help a religious orginization, the same Religious that knee's and prays to "Saints".
"No one shall get to the Father but by me". That is why we pray in Jesus's name.

To imply laziness by asking God something is the defending of man made doctrine.

To question the Doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church was labeled as "Heresy", and even backed by scripture the Roman Catholic Church only cared about protecting what was in the 4th Century a failing Empire.

The Roman Catholic Church is why we have so many "religions" today. A group of men took it upon themselves to vilify Mary Magdeline(if you research MM in the Greek and Hebrew she was not a prostitute, that was designed by the Catholic Bishops to avoid the appearance of impropriety).
The Arian heresy had infected parts of the Church all the way from Alexandria through Palestine, Syria, Asia minor to Greece. It was bad enough that it viciated the very heart of Christian doctrine from within, but there was also danger that it would weaken the Empire itself, and so Constantine, who was trying hard to consolidate the Empire, took an active part in trying to solve the matter. He called for a council of bishops of the Church. At first it appeared that he had in mind only the Eastern bishops since he first designated Ancyra in Galatia (Ankara in Turkey) as a place for the bishops to assemble. Arianism had particularly divided the Church there. But this would make it difficult for himself to attend, and besides it might be good for other bishops to attend, those not necessarily involved in the controversy. Hence Nicaea in Bithynia was finally selected; it was close to the sea making it easier for more bishops to attend, he had there a large palace compound, both to house the bishops and with a great hall in which they could assemble, and he could keep an eye on them from nearby Nicomedia.

The big thing which happened was the Nicene Creed, but in this way:

Most held out at first for a Scriptural language and expression to make clear against the Arians what the catholic doctrine had been, but as the discussions progressed it became evident that there was no Scriptural vocabulary which would correctly express the orthodox teaching. They lighted on a philosophical term, homoosios (same substance as) to express what they meant and what had always been the catholic teaching, but there was still needed a formula to summarize and convey their meaning. Of all bishops, Eusebius of Caesarea, who had been clobbered by the synod at Antioch the year before, produced a creed he used in his church. As far as it went, it was acceptable to the rest of the bishops, but they made additions in order to make it very clear that Arius' position was not what they espoused. This creed would be further amended by the First Council of Constantinople, and hence is technically known as the "Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed", but maybe it should be known as the Caesarean-Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.

Here it is beneficial to explain something councils do, almost as a byproduct. Primarily a council's purpose, at least a dogmatic council, is to proclaim with unmistakable clarity a doctrine already a part of the teaching of the Church. But at Nicaea there were not a few bishops, well-intentioned and open to the Spirit, who actually would have been hard pressed themselves to give a clear explanation of the relationship of the Son to the Father. But because they had humility and good will they learned from the discussions of the Council, at the same time that they were a part of the council process. Hence a council can also teach bishops. All of the bishops present signed the Creed, except two, Secundus of Ptolemais and Theonas of Marmarica. Constantine banished them along with Arius (whom he later recalled).


Among other things they also settled (they thought) was the date of Easter. While most celebrated Easter on a Sunday to commemorate the resurrection, there were a few who celebrated on weekdays (even Good Friday) according to a Jewish reckoning (the Quartodeciman controversy addressed by Pope Victor, 189-198), and those who did observe Sunday did not all observe on the same Sunday. Constantine wanted, as did most bishops, a universal observance. To this very day it is disputed what the council fathers meant by their decision, and Easter is still observed variously, but the points of their decree supposed by most are: 1) Easter should be celebrated on the same day by all (a point all agree was contained in the decree); 2) Jewish custom was not the criterion to be followed (a point which is not cited by the Greeks, but strongly mentioned both in the writings which preceded the council and in Eusebius' report of it); and 3) that the practice of Rome and Alexandria (then West and Egypt) should remain in force, namely the Sunday after the first full moon of the vernal equinox (the Creeks do not cite the first half of this point, only the second). But even Alexandria and Rome did not agree for a long time, due to calculations (miscalculations) as to the date of the vernal equinox. Rome celebrated the equinox on March 18, and Alexandria on March 23. Since this is something scientific, that is, half way between the shortest and the longest day of the year, it could be and was eventually solved by the devising of various cycles, so that a fixed day in the lunar calendar (14th of Nisan) would occur according to a predetermined pattern in the Julian calendar. Today Greeks and other Orthodox maintain that the Roman date of Easter is wrong, saying that the Nicene Council stipulated that the Resurrection must always be celebrated after the Jewish Passover.

Now it must be remembered that only incomplete records of canons and decrees exist from the Council at Nicaea. What we actually have is the Creed, the disciplinary action against the Arians, 20 disciplinary canons, a letter to the Alexandrian church, and a list of the bishops present (a list which varies from language to language).

The rest of the canons (if authentic at all) have been garnered from other sources, including Arabic writings. In thus citing Nicea about Easter coming after the Jewish Passover, the Greeks must have sources which are not commonly known, and stronger sources than the west is aware. For example, Eusebius of Caesarea writing just after the Council quotes from the letter of Emperor Constantine to all who were not present at the Council,

". . .relative to the sacred festival of Easter. . . it was declared to be particularly unworthy for this holiest of all festivals to follow the custom of the Jews. We ought not therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews. We desire to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews for it is surely shameful for us to hear the Jews boast that without their direction we could not keep this feast. In their blindness, they frequently celebrate two Passovers in the same year. . . How then could we follow these Jews. . . for to celebrate the Passover twice in one year is totally inadmissible ."

"Heresy" was the term now being used to describe what many fomer priests and bishops had been teaching.

"God is One, without partners" seems to be the theme throughout the Old Testament. But now suddenly when the pagan Romans are about to make Christianity the offical church of the Holy Empire, the need to rethink the concept of God arises.

A God-Man and Man-God seem to fit right in with the "former pagan" concept of their 'gods on earth.'

Could this explain the source for "Trinity?"

"Trinity" does not appear anywhere in the Old Testament or the New Testament.

Even the phrase, "And these two are one" (First Epistle of John, Chapter 5, verse 7) is fabricated and based on the verse prior to it.
[see: Revised Standard Version of the Bible, 1952 and History of Translations of Bible to the English Language, F. F. Bruce).

If it is laziness to ask God to lead me in study then I am lazy. If I believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins, changed administrations from the Law to our current administration of Grace by his blood then evidently I am a heretic because I do not follow man made doctrine..nor will I. The word of God is just that, the inspired word of God..that is the only reference I will ever refer to..never a council of men protecting a man made doctrine or a belief structure meant to insure a "religion" lives on.
Again, study, in the Greek and Hebrew. Even the dates of Christs birth and Death were manipulated by the Roman Catholic Church(the "3 wise men" were actually ancient astronomers known as " Magi" and were in that area of the ancient calender in mid September, not December as the Catholic Church made it..it was changed to compete with Pagan holidays and even incorporated Pagan ritual of giving gifts leading to why Christmas is commercial, not just celebrating the Birth of the Savior but as a retail time of sales...the Jews have it right on that one..would todays youth be satisfied with a handmade spinning top instead of an x-box..lol?

Again, the devil will use this issue if it is allowed to divide Christians. It is an issue that can only be clarified in study and prayer, and in prayer to God in Jesus's name.

I don't care the age of debate, I don't care of RC councils and other stuffs of men. I would advice you read my post and answer my questions I asked. I answered based on Bible. So would you read my post and remove RC on my way? I don't agree with many stuffs, many many many: Almost all of RC, so I will not definitely argue based on their invention/Doctrines.

On top of my first Question, would you explain what you understand by "Son of God"?

Also would you provide evidence that the verse you said was added by men? What does qualify you to say that?

Would you also define who/what is the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost? How do they relate?

I will be happy to receive answers to my questions in first and this post

 

[jiggyfly]

If it is laziness to ask God to lead me in study then I am lazy. If I believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins, changed administrations from the Law to our current administration of Grace by his blood then evidently I am a heretic because I do not follow man made doctrine..nor will I. The word of God is just that, the inspired word of God..that is the only reference I will ever refer to..never a council of men protecting a man made doctrine or a belief structure meant to insure a "religion" lives on.
Again, study, in the Greek and Hebrew. Even the dates of Christs birth and Death were manipulated by the Roman Catholic Church(the "3 wise men" were actually ancient astronomers known as " Magi" and were in that area of the ancient calender in mid September, not December as the Catholic Church made it..it was changed to compete with Pagan holidays and even incorporated Pagan ritual of giving gifts leading to why Christmas is commercial, not just celebrating the Birth of the Savior but as a retail time of sales...the Jews have it right on that one..would todays youth be satisfied with a handmade spinning top instead of an x-box..lol?

Again, the devil will use this issue if it is allowed to divide Christians. It is an issue that can only be clarified in study and prayer, and in prayer to God in Jesus's name.

Again you are ignoring some scriptures concerning HolySpirit, stop trying to cloud the issue with all the religious history it means nothing.

I personally could give a flip what the RC, PHC, AOG, or the good ole Baptists think or say they're all carnal. Now if you want to discuss this further use scriptures and please lets use all the scriptures pertaining to the topic.:wink:

 

[BlueRidgeNC]

Your right!

Jesus is Lord! That is something that cannot be disputed.
It is cleer that in order to recieve messages or remain part of the "Forum" I must agree with your indoctrinated views. Since I do not and do not wish to inflame you I will cancel my membership and look for another open forum that encourages true study and debate.

When a list owner threatens to not allow access until their indoctrinated opinions are justified it becomes self serving.

Blessings to all,

BlueRidgeNC

 

[jiggyfly]

Jesus is Lord! That is something that cannot be disputed.
It is cleer that in order to recieve messages or remain part of the "Forum" I must agree with your indoctrinated views. Since I do not and do not wish to inflame you I will cancel my membership and look for another open forum that encourages true study and debate.

When a list owner threatens to not allow access until their indoctrinated opinions are justified it becomes self serving.

Blessings to all,

BlueRidgeNC

No again you are mistaken, if you want to discuss this topic do it according to the TJ rules and post scripture to support your view. But if being challenge in your view is overly upsetting to you than maybe another forum more suitable to your view is the answer.

 

[Jesusgirlkk]

Jiggyfly and BlueRidge, I think you both are overreacting a bit. We need to all have brotherly love and listen to others opinons and if there is something wrong then please try to point it out with a gentle spirit like we should. God would want us to get along that way and focus on answering the question that was ask in the way we believe it best to be answered. Please focus on helping this question get answered and not proving others wrong. I'm sorry to say anything to you but this is suppose to be a Christian form showing Christian values.

 

[Boanerges]

Jesus never professed to be God but to be the Son of God.

.

The word Trinity is not in the Bible and I do not remember seeing anyone claim it was. However the concept is present from Genesis and on begging with the God said let us in
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

As far as your statement above, if the Father calls Him God then the point is mute.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Thy throne Ho" Theos-

From the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible (red emphasis mine):

G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

They throne Ho' Theos- there is the Father Himself calling Jesus the Supreme God. I will take His view over that of man's anytime.

 

[BlueRidgeNC]

Scriptures

Mark1:1 "The beginning of the gospel Of Jesus Christ, the Son of God"

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him"

John 20:31 " But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:and that believing ye might have life through his name"

1John 1:3 "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ"

1John 4:15 "Whoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him and he in God"

1John 5:5 "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

II John3: "Grace be with you, mercy , and peace, from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the son of the Father, in truth and love"

Acts 9:20 "And straightaway he preached Christ in the Synagogues, that he is the Son of God"

Roman 1;3 and 4; "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the Flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the Sprit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead"

Roman 5:10 " For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled we shall be saved by his life"

Romans 8:3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh"

1 Corinth 1:9 "'God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord"

II Corinth 1:19 "For the Son of God Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea"

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; ye not I, but Christ liveth in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me"

Galatians 4:4 "But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under law".

Luke 1:35 "And the Angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the highest shall overshadow thee; therefore also that holy thing which shall be of thee shall be called the Son of God".

John 1:32-34 "And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from Heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
And I knew him not; but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he who baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God".

Mathew 16;16 "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God".

John 6:68-69 "Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
And we believe and are sure that thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God".

John 1:49 Nathanael answered and said unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God: thou art the King of Israel".

John 11:27 "She(Martha) said unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world".

(The man who was born blind)
John 9:35-38 "Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, dost thou believe on the Son of God?
He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I me believe on him?
And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee
And he said, Lord, I believe. And the Apostles worshipped him".

Matthew 14:33 " Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God".

Acts 8:37 "And Phillip said, If thou believeth with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God".

Matthew 27:54 "Now when the Centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God".

Unclean Spirits:

Matthew 8:29 "And behold they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time"?.

Mark 3:11 And Unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God".

Also: see Mark 5:7, Luke 4:41, Luke 8:28,

Jesus believed himself to be the Son of God;

Matthew 27:43 "He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God".

John 3:16-18 "For God so loved the World, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life".

John 5:25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live".

John 9:35-37 "Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, dost thou believe on the Son of God?
And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him and talketh with thee".

John 10:36 "Say ye of him, who the Father has sanctified, and sent unto the world, Thou Blasphemest; Because I said, I am the Son of God"?.

God cannot be tempted

James 1:13"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with eveil, neither tempteth he any man".

But Jesus was tempted

Luke 4:1, 2, 13:And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordon and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, Being 40 days tempted by the devil...
And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season".

The knowledge of God is omniscient.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels, neither the Son, but the Father".

More Scripture:

Matthew 26:39, Matthew 26:42, Luke 22:42, John 5:30, Matthew 20:23

This is my belief of the Divinity of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ from Scripture, only Scripture. I will answer more of your "questions" after my next study and prayer to do so with Love.

Blessings in all things,

BlueRidge NC

 

[jiggyfly]

Jiggyfly and BlueRidge, I think you both are overreacting a bit. We need to all have brotherly love and listen to others opinons and if there is something wrong then please try to point it out with a gentle spirit like we should. God would want us to get along that way and focus on answering the question that was ask in the way we believe it best to be answered. Please focus on helping this question get answered and not proving others wrong. I'm sorry to say anything to you but this is suppose to be a Christian form showing Christian values.

Can you point out how we have overreacted?

Can you share your opinion of the answer to the question?

 

[BlueRidgeNC]

Thank you

You are correct and my sincerest apology. Thank you for bringing to my attention that only in love can we agree to disagree. God covers all if done in love, I do not profess to know anything, but pray to keep an open mind, a pure heart and be open to learn the word of God.

 

[BlueRidgeNC]

"One" with God

John10:30 "I and my Father are One".

The word "One" in John 10:30 is the Greek word "hen"meaning one in purpose, not one in person which would be the Greek word "heis"which is in the masculine.

Our oneness with God is shown in the scriptures below. These same scriptures also specify that we can be one with them-not that we become God, but that we have unity of purpose with God and his Son, Jesus Christ.

John 17:11 "And I am no more in the world, but these(desciples) are in the world, and I come to thee, Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou has given me, that they me be "One", as we are". The word "one" again is the Greek word "hen".

John 17;20-23 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be "one"; as thou, Father art in me, and I in thee, that they may also be one in us; that the world may believe that thou has sent me.
And the Glory which thou gaveth me I have given them; that they may be "one", even as we are "one"; I in them, and thou nin me, that they may be made perfect in "one"; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me"

The word "One" does not mean "equal to"(that would be the greek word "heis" in masculine. The above scriptures in the Greek are "hen" meaning "one in purpose".

The Scriptures I list below boldly declare that God the Father is Superior to his Son, Jesus Christ;

John 14:28 "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If you loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father; for my Father is greater than I".

I Corinth 11: "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ:and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God".

I timothy 2:5 " For there is one God, and one mediator between God and Man, the man Jesus Christ".

When Jesus said that God was his Father, It did not make him God, but gave him many of the same privileges as God. Similarly in ancient Hebrew culture, a son born into the family of a King has many of the same privileges as his father, but yet the King represents the greater of the two.

We are all Sons and daughters of God in Christ.

I Corinth 8:6 "But to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him' and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him".

I John 3: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God"


Since we are also sons of God, and Jesus Christ is the Son of God, we are as it states in Hebrews, his Brothers. Being brothers in Jesus Christ. We are heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ.
Jesus is our redeemer and our Lord. God is "Our Father, who art in Heaven"

Hebrews 2: 9-11 "But we see Jesus who was made a little a little lower than the angels(this word "angels" in the Hebrew texts is "Elohim" which means "God") for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto Glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
For both he that is sanctified and they who are sanctified are all one one God; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren".

In following the ten commandments in Deuteronomy 5, there is stated in Deuteronomy 6 a reiteration of the greatest truth of the supremacy of the one true God.

Deuteronomy 6: "Hear O Israel: The Lord(Jehovah) our God(Elohim) is one Lord(Jehovah)".

Elohim is used of God the Creator; Jehovah is used of God in relationship to His creation. "The Jehovah, our Elohim is one Jehovah" and he is the one and only one.
There has always been one sin which God did not and will not tolerate and that is worshipping another god other than God the Creator.
If we defy the basic rule God set up in the beginning and serve gods other than the one true God, we bring injury to ourselves. Then, after disregarding God's will in our own lives we make matters worse by propounding it to others.
Jesus Christ is not God, Biblically he is the son of God. This in no way detracts from the uniqueness of Christ. His position is second only to God, being "God's only begotten Son".

 

[BlueRidgeNC]

Holy Spirit..God...pneumo hagion is the gift

We cannot ask God questions which He have answered 2000+ years ago. That is called laziness. We have to study these things.

We can always talk to God..Our Father.. just as a son(as we are) would go to his Father for advice and council..in prayer. I talk to God all day long, I wake and give each day to him..in every breath I take I thank God and in return I am his ervant for each and every day I wake in all things...he is my heavenly father and in prayer its in the name of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To say that a child in Christ cannot not ask for revelation, discernment and help with issues. He is a loving Father, who comforts, listens and best of all answers.


Which bible are you referring to?
Holy Spirit has gifts but He is Himself a Person. We can say that He is a gift meaning that, a person that God gave us to help us, while we didn't deserve him. I mean He is "He" not "It"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is one of the most misunderstood fields in Christianity today.
God is Holy, and God is Spirit, the gift he gives is holy spirit.

In the Greek manuscripts and texts are the word "pneuma, "spirit" is never capatalized. Therefor, when the word pnuema is translated "Spirit" with a capital "S" or "spirit" with a small "s" it is an interpretationand, as such, is of no higher authority than the person or translator giving it.
By recognizing this practice in texts, it is understandable why so many people confuse the giver, Holy Spirit, with the gift, holy spirit. The giver is God who is Spirit(pneuma,) and Holy, "hagion" God(see John 4:24) God, who is the Holy Spirit, can only give that which He is. Therefor, the gift of the Giver is of necessity holy, hagion, and spirit, pneuma.

Luke11:13 "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children; how much more shall your heavinly Father give the Holy Spirit(pneuma hagion)to them that ask him?"

This verse clearly shows that pneuma hagion is the gift from God the Father, and therefor should be translated with a small "h" and small "s". The gift is not the Giver(God) and the Giver is not the gift.

Another example of the difference between the Giver and the gift is found in the 3rd chapter of John..
John 3:6 "that which is born of the Spirit(the pneuma, Spirit God) is spirit(pneuma, gift, small "s" in word spirit).

Another scripture example of the difference between Giver and gift is found in John 14.
John 14:16,17 and 26 " And I pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he)it, the comforter) may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him(it)not, neither knoweth him(it); but ye know him(it)' for he(it) dwelleth in you, and shall be in you.
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he(it) shall teach you all things, and bring you all things to your remembrance, whatsover I have said to you".

In the Old Testament and Gospels, we find that men of God had the spirit upon them. These men also operated the seven manifestations of the spirit which were prophesy, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, discerning of spirits,faith, miracles and healing.
Jesus told the deciples that the holy spirit was with them, upon them and that a future time it would be in them. The reason for the gift, pneuma hagion, was not in themis that it was not yet available for them to be born again.

John 7:39( "But this spake he(Christ) of the Spirit, which they that believe on him shall recieve; for the Holy Ghost(the gift, holy spirit)was not yet given; because Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The new birth was not available until the day of Pentecost. This can be seen in the 24th chapter of Luke.

Luke 24:49 "And behold, I send the promise of my Father(the gift)upon you; but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high".

Jesus commanded his decisples to wait in Jerusalem until they received the gift which was promised from the Father, that being pneuma hagion. Another example is found in acts:

Acts 1,4 and 5 "And being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
For John truly baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence".
One can see in these passages that the gift, pneuma hagion, is referred to by several different terms: the comforted, power from on high, the promise of the Father, to be baptized with the holy spirit.

The Pentecost and promise of the gift from the Father:

Acts 2:1-4 " And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they(the 12 apostles) were all with one accord in one place.
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire and it sat upon each of them.
And they were filled with the Holy Ghost(pneuma hagion) and behgan to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit(the pneuma) gave them utterance".

In these 4 verses it is a complete record of the reciving of the gift(pneuma hagion), power from on high, by the 12 apostles.
The speaking of tongues was an external manifestation of the receiving of the gift of holy spirit.
After the 12 Apostles were born again and spoke in tongues, Peter stood up and taught the multitudes. At the conclusion of his message, he taught them how to receive the new birth and speak in tongues.

Acts 2:38,39 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive(lambano, manifest) the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call"

The promise of the Father(his gift) was now available to everyone who believed;
When people believed they were born again and recived gods promise of pneumo hagion, power from on high. The gift of pneuma hagion was in them and sealed them forever.

Ephesians 1:13 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also after ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy spirit of promise".

The greatness of God's revealing Himself to the Church of Grace was brought about by the accomplishments of Jesus Christ. For after Jesus Christ was sacrificied, was resurrected and ascended into heaven it was possible for God to send his gift which dwells permanently in all believers.
The communication between God and man was, still is holy spirit which comes from God pneuma hagion, Holy Spirit.

Blessings in life, study in abundance..

BlueRidgeNC