Why don't you believe in the Rapture?

[Shaolin]

I am curious, I have heard some who claim to be Christians that they do not believe in the Rapture, but never get information on why they don't (aside from the lame excuse that the word "rapture" is not in the NT).

If you don't believe in the Rapture, here is your chance to explain to us why...

..

 

[Christ4Ever]

Going fishing I see!
All the best in your search, and I have a feeling that you'll get a few nibbles.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

I believe many associate the word rapture, with the doctrine of a “pre-tribulation rapture” doctrine. Is this the doctrine you speak of?

 

[Shaolin]

I believe many associate the word rapture, with the doctrine of a “pre-tribulation rapture” doctrine. Is this the doctrine you speak of?

It is...but I am not addressing the timing of the Rapture, only that some seem to choose not to believe in it at all, and I see no reason for choosing such because Jesus Himself addressed it as well as Paul.

..

 

[Samson2020]

It is...but I am not addressing the timing of the Rapture, only that some seem to choose not to believe in it at all, and I see no reason for choosing such because Jesus Himself addressed it as well as Paul.

..

That is exactly the problem though. The timing. A pre trib rapture doctrine is a tool used to perpetuate the great falling away from the faith. When that does not happen prior to or at the
beginning of the great tribulation, people will lose faith simply because of their false belief that they would be spared from going through it.

Matthew 24:29 tells us when the gathering will happen and links it to AFTER the great tribulation, and compares the timing with Rev 6:9-11 as to why it is AFTER.

I think we all agree there will be a gathering of the elect and a changing of this mortal to immortal but the timing is everything concerning that word.

 

[Dave M]

Most on tj that I have seen over the years believe in the rapture, its the timing that we all seem to disagree on, I think maybe a handful if that do not believe at all in the rapture, @Hekuran is the only one who I can think of off the top of my head, maybe he will chime in​

​

1 Thessalonians 4:17​

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Matthew 24:40​

Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.

 

[Luminary]

I am curious, I have heard some who claim to be Christians that they do not believe in the Rapture, but never get information on why they don't (aside from the lame excuse that the word "rapture" is not in the NT).

If you don't believe in the Rapture, here is your chance to explain to us why...

..

I am reluctant to answer this, as it can turn quickly into a heated topic….but here goes:/

I am one, who doesn’t buy into the traditional, literal(as it’s given) understanding of Revelation.
(Rapture) Neither have I studied the pre/mid/post tribulation narratives. They get extremely confusing for me, bouncing all around through so many books and chapters….I gave up on it…lol
Too much head thinking!

—The kingdom of God, does not come with observation. Luke 17:20
And since this kingdom comes at the Return of Christ, and we are told that it’s in our midst….I just can’t latch on to what the rest have, given just those few guidelines…

The book of Revelation is spoken in heavy symbolism. Of which, the meaning has been lost too us, or was never given, such as Daniel speaks, that it is sealed up for another generation- as it almost parallels Daniel. I have come to find it futile to try and figure it out, as it becomes in vain….we are simply told to be ready! As it comes as a thief in the night. (Not what most think it means!)

One theme I have found, when it comes to prophsey, is one gives it, and another —discerns— it. Such as both Jesus and Paul did. Sometimes the meaning is given, such as with Peter and his dream (of the gentiles). I find Revelation one, where those keys have not been given yet.

From experience, and certainly a conviction from within….Many have been taken, and many have been left behind. Many have already met him in the clouds/air(symbolism) as he told us he was always with us already.
Matt 28:20

There is so much pertaining to spiritual matters (and language) that we are not taught. And neither have we allowed the teaching, as we follow the traditions of men, for so many different reasons.

So to apply a human logic, from a physical (flesh) human perspective, even though physical language is spoken, that relays a spiritual meaning….is Truly futile, and is/will be the reason that so many will loose Faith, when their expectations are not met.(seconding that one
Not only in the timing, but the way in which things are actually happening and will happen. And why so many who were brought up hearing that name, have walked away.

There really is so much to say on this topic. But the human body works a certain way. Just as the laws of the universe does. Yet when you get into the world of physics (which is a whole other world “beneath” the physical one, the rules change. With the conscious observer, choosing what he sees and believes. Individually, and collectively!!!!
(Double slit experiment!)

So indeed!, not even the son knows the time! Because it all depends on us! What we believe! How we believe! How much Faith we have! How close we “follow” the way!!!
As indeed it leads to immortal life. And can happen in an instant. But must be “grown” into.
The difference between a child and an adult. Kindergarten and Collage.
The milk of the word and the meat!

Not all was given. As some was too much for some to bare. Some can not get past the elementary things, so how can they bare more(?) God reveals the rest through himself, for those who seek him!
Jeremiah 29
Jeremiah 33

I am curious, I have heard some who claim to be Christians that they do not believe in the Rapture, but never get information on why they don't (aside from the lame excuse that the word "rapture" is not in the NT).

If you don't believe in the Rapture, here is your chance to explain to us why...

..

 

[Shaolin]

I am reluctant to answer this, as it can turn quickly into a heated topic….but here goes:/

I am one, who doesn’t buy into the traditional, literal(as it’s given) understanding of Revelation.
(Rapture) Neither have I studied the pre/mid/post tribulation narratives. They get extremely confusing for me, bouncing all around through so many books and chapters….I gave up on it…lol
Too much head thinking!

—The kingdom of God, does not come with observation. Luke 17:20
And since this kingdom comes at the Return of Christ, and we are told that it’s in our midst….I just can’t latch on to what the rest have, given just those few guidelines…

The book of Revelation is spoken in heavy symbolism. Of which, the meaning has been lost too us, or was never given, such as Daniel speaks, that it is sealed up for another generation- as it almost parallels Daniel. I have come to find it futile to try and figure it out, as it becomes in vain….we are simply told to be ready! As it comes as a thief in the night. (Not what most think it means!)

One theme I have found, when it comes to prophsey, is one gives it, and another —discerns— it. Such as both Jesus and Paul did. Sometimes the meaning is given, such as with Peter and his dream (of the gentiles). I find Revelation one, where those keys have not been given yet.

From experience, and certainly a conviction from within….Many have been taken, and many have been left behind. Many have already met him in the clouds/air(symbolism) as he told us he was always with us already.
Matt 28:20

There is so much pertaining to spiritual matters (and language) that we are not taught. And neither have we allowed the teaching, as we follow the traditions of men, for so many different reasons.

So to apply a human logic, from a physical (flesh) human perspective, even though physical language is spoken, that relays a spiritual meaning….is Truly futile, and is/will be the reason that so many will loose Faith, when their expectations are not met.(seconding that one
Not only in the timing, but the way in which things are actually happening and will happen. And why so many who were brought up hearing that name, have walked away.

There really is so much to say on this topic. But the human body works a certain way. Just as the laws of the universe does. Yet when you get into the world of physics (which is a whole other world “beneath” the physical one, the rules change. With the conscious observer, choosing what he sees and believes. Individually, and collectively!!!!
(Double slit experiment!)

So indeed!, not even the son knows the time! Because it all depends on us! What we believe! How we believe! How much Faith we have! How close we “follow” the way!!!
As indeed it leads to immortal life. And can happen in an instant. But must be “grown” into.
The difference between a child and an adult. Kindergarten and Collage.
The milk of the word and the meat!

Not all was given. As some was too much for some to bare. Some can not get past the elementary things, so how can they bare more(?) God reveals the rest through himself, for those who seek him!
Jeremiah 29
Jeremiah 33

Thanks for answering...if I may:

The rapture really has nothing to do with Revelation; these are the passages that address the topic:

Matthew 24:36-42
36 "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,
39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.
42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

In context, Jesus here teaches this when addressing the last days before the Great Tribulation begins. Next...

Luke 17:34-35
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left.
35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left."

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all die, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

These are the passages that teach the "rapture" or catching away of those who are in personal relationship with God when Christ comes to take us.

There are other passages that speak of a cleansing that takes place after Armageddon, and many confuse those passages as rapture passages also, which is why some believe it will take place mid or post tribulation (which I am not discussing here).

Hope that helps! Blessings!

..

 

[Shaolin]

That is exactly the problem though. The timing.

Again, I am not addressing the timing, only the FACT that it is taught in Scripture.

A pre trib rapture doctrine is a tool used to perpetuate the great falling away from the faith. When that does not happen prior to or at the
beginning of the great tribulation, people will lose faith simply because of their false belief that they would be spared from going through it.

This comment is based upon failing to take into account all of the variables.

Matthew 24:29 tells us when the gathering will happen and links it to AFTER the great tribulation, and compares the timing with Rev 6:9-11 as to why it is AFTER.

Negative...read the narrative again. Verse 27 addresses ONLY that the coming of the Son of Man (which occurs after Armageddon) will be seen by all people, this is not the rapture but the second coming. Jesus does not give everything in chapter 24 in chronological order, which a detailed study demonstrates. You are confusing the second coming with the Rapture - they are not the same thing.

I think we all agree there will be a gathering of the elect and a changing of this mortal to immortal but the timing is everything concerning that word.

I disagree, the fact of the Rapture is everything, not its timing. Plus, seeing the facts of Revelation, where the antichrist is given the authority to "make war on the saints and over come them," at one point in the great tribulation (right in the middle) there will be NO Christians left alive to rapture. The "blessed hope" is what keeps many today pushing forward, both a mid and post rapture contradicts numerous other passages as well.

Blessings.

..

 

[B-A-C]

Negative...read the narrative again. Verse 27 addresses ONLY that the coming of the Son of Man (which occurs after Armageddon)

Actually it says when He returns (after) the great tribulation. That is when He will gather up the elect.

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mark 13:24; "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25; AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26; "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

So it doesn't "only" address the 2nd coming. It addresses the "gathering up" (rapture).

 

[Samson2020]

I disagree, the fact of the Rapture is everything, not its timing. Plus, seeing the facts of Revelation, where the antichrist is given the authority to "make war on the saints and over come them," at one point in the great tribulation (right in the middle) there will be NO Christians left alive to rapture. The "blessed hope" is what keeps many today pushing forward, both a mid and post rapture contradicts numerous other passages as well.

So the Anti Christ makes war with the saints until he destroys them all, per your post, but yet the rapture did not occur yet, and there are no Christians alive, per your post, to rapture?

Your post surely contradicts a mid or post as you say they are all dead already.

Just two questions. Since according to Matthew 24:29-31 the gathering of the elect is AFTER the tribulation, WHO is raptured prior to this point? And for what purpose?

 

[Shaolin]

So the Anti Christ makes war with the saints until he destroys them all, per your post, but yet the rapture did not occur yet, and there are no Christians alive, per your post, to rapture?

Not according to my post...according to Scripture:

Revelation 13:7-8
7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,
8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Just in case it is not clear, verse 8 begins with the copulative "kai," marking the progress of a continued discourse. John says that the antichrist will be given authority to make war on the saints and kill them, then all those left on the earth (aside from Israel) will be those who take the mark, permanently damning their souls to the lake of fire.

Your post surely contradicts a mid or post as you say they are all dead already.

Again...not my post, but what Scripture clearly states.

Just two questions. Since according to Matthew 24:29-31 the gathering of the elect is AFTER the tribulation, WHO is raptured prior to this point? And for what purpose?

You make the same mistake many other do here...Jesus says very clearly that He will send out His angels to gather His elect...note first that in the Rapture, angels are NOT said to gather those still alive - in the Rapture those of us who are walking with God and still alive will be TRANSLATED from flesh and blood into glorified spiritual bodies (I Cor. 15:52)...you need to pay attention to the words of the text. What Jesus is talking about here, is the gathering of the Jews who are still alive and scattered throughout the world. After the Great Tribulation, He gathers all of the elect Jews and brings them all to Jerusalem.

Again...you need to pay closer attention to the words, when people don't, that is how false doctrines get started...

Those who are raptured before the Tribulation starts are those who are still alive and walking with God, the purpose? Because Scripture tells you that those walking with God are NOT culpable to what is coming...

Luke 21:34-36
34 "But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap.
35 For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

1 Thessalonians 1:10
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

This is the purpose...it is quite clear.

Blessings.

..

 

[Shaolin]

Actually it says when He returns (after) the great tribulation. That is when He will gather up the elect.

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mark 13:24; "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25; AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26; "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

So it doesn't "only" address the 2nd coming. It addresses the "gathering up" (rapture).

Again...you need to pay detailed attention to the words of the text...

You make the same mistake many others do here...Jesus says very clearly that He will send out His angels to gather His elect...note first that in the Rapture, angels are NOT said to gather those still alive - in the Rapture those of us who are walking with God and still alive will be TRANSLATED from flesh and blood into glorified spiritual bodies (I Cor. 15:52)...you need to pay attention to the words of the text. What Jesus is talking about here, is the gathering of the Jews who are still alive and scattered throughout the world. After the Great Tribulation, He gathers all of the elect Jews and brings them all to Jerusalem.

..

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

That is exactly the problem though. The timing. A pre trib rapture doctrine is a tool used to perpetuate the great falling away from the faith. When that does not happen prior to or at the
beginning of the great tribulation, people will lose faith simply because of their false belief that they would be spared from going through it.

Matthew 24:29 tells us when the gathering will happen and links it to AFTER the great tribulation, and compares the timing with Rev 6:9-11 as to why it is AFTER.

I think we all agree there will be a gathering of the elect and a changing of this mortal to immortal but the timing is everything concerning that word.

If you are paying attention, you will see that the great falling away has begun...Look for that now.....In your reference to Matt 24 you're mixing two events into one....The "rapture" is not Jesus second coming....You can see it if you're paying attention.....At the "rapture" the bride meets Jesus in the air....
at the "second coming" Jesus' feet actually touch the ground.....Two separate events

 

[Samson2020]

You make the same mistake many other do here...Jesus says very clearly that He will send out His angels to gather His elect...note first that in the Rapture, angels are NOT said to gather those still alive - in the Rapture those of us who are walking with God and still alive will be TRANSLATED from flesh and blood into glorified spiritual bodies (I Cor. 15:52)...you need to pay attention to the words of the text. What Jesus is talking about here, is the gathering of the Jews who are still alive and scattered throughout the world. After the Great Tribulation, He gathers all of the elect Jews and brings them all to Jerusalem.

And that happens at the LAST TRUMPET 1 Co 15:52 "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days............... 31- And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a TRUMPET, and they shall gather together His elect.........

I see no difference here as both events are tied to the sound of the TRUMPET, one says the last. Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, WHEN HE SHALL BEGIN TO SOUND,
"The LAST TRUMPET", the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets. Rev 8 there are only 7 angels that have trumpets to sound thus the 7th is the last.
So in 1 Co 15:52 when it says the LAST TRUMPET is when the dead are raised and all the elect are changed, it's all at the same time. AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

If you will notice in Matthew 24:27 He states "For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west; SO SHALL ALSO THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE."
29 Immediately AFTER the Tribulation...........30-And THEN shall appear the sign of the SON OF MAN in heaven, and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they SHALL SEE
THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY." 31-with the great sound of a TRUMPET, THE LAST, the angels are sent to gather the
elect both dead and alive.

I am not quite sure I understand your meaning here "The elect Jews"??? There are no Jews in the flesh concerning the elect as ALL of the elect are Jews according to the spirit whether they
be gentiles or Jews according to the flesh.

If you are paying attention, you will see that the great falling away has begun..

I would not dispute that claim, but I do not know what the entire world looks like according to faith. I can only judge myself and I dare not even do that.

..In your reference to Matt 24 you're mixing two events into one.

Wrong, you guys are trying to make 2 events out of the same ONE event.
How is your faith? could it stand up to beheading? crucifixion? Burned alive?
Or is it weak so that an escape route is your way unto perfection? He spared not Jesus, why should He spare you? "Thou He slay me, yet still will I trust in Him"

For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Agreed, but your understanding of wrath in this verse is that He will save us from His wrath, when it is actually saying we are no longer vessels fitted to wrath. This does not
mean He won't shield us from the wrath of the anti Christ as some will be as there will be a few elect alive at the second coming.

Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

How does this verse prove anything concerning rapture? It could mean you die in your sleep of old age prior to the second coming, or even prior to the tribulation. It does not say your gonna be RAPTURED to heaven, but that is what you want it to mean.

36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

"Escape all these things"? again implied RAPTURE. Escape could mean death prior to tribulation. It could mean your in an area that is protected from the face of the dragon as the woman
clothed with the sun who gave birth to the man child.

In closing I would just say one thing and that is that we are no where near the second coming. The fact of a world wide mark to buy and sell is impossible without global cooperation,
as well as a one world monetary system. Neither one of those are anywhere near complete, but they are in the works. Which makes this particular subject truly irrelevant for anyone over 50.
If you live up and through 2055-2060 it will be quite relevant then as the time of the end will be pretty much in sight.

There are 10 kings that arise through the final kingdom on earth and that kingdom is on #3 right now. You still have 7 to go and then the anti-Christ will show to the world. That puts us out
at least 35 years.
That said I am saying just be ready as your day of death could be today or any day thereafter, but for me to die is gain, how about you?

 

[Shaolin]

And that happens at the LAST TRUMPET 1 Co 15:52 "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.

So...you are saying that "the last trump" is the last of the seven trumpets of Revelation? You are sorely confused.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days............... 31- And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a TRUMPET, and they shall gather together His elect.........

I see no difference here as both events are tied to the sound of the TRUMPET, one says the last. Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, WHEN HE SHALL BEGIN TO SOUND,
"The LAST TRUMPET", the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets. Rev 8 there are only 7 angels that have trumpets to sound thus the 7th is the last.
So in 1 Co 15:52 when it says the LAST TRUMPET is when the dead are raised and all the elect are changed, it's all at the same time. AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

There is a huge difference. Jesus never, nor did Paul, ever address the trumpet judgments, which is what you are trying to do. The last trumpet He addresses is the trumpet that blows when God tells Jesus to go get His children in the Rapture, it has nothing to do with the trumpet judgments. Whoever taught you that didn't know what they were talking about.

If you will notice in Matthew 24:27 He states "For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west; SO SHALL ALSO THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE."
29 Immediately AFTER the Tribulation...........30-And THEN shall appear the sign of the SON OF MAN in heaven, and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they SHALL SEE
THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY." 31-with the great sound of a TRUMPET, THE LAST, the angels are sent to gather the
elect both dead and alive.

Again, you are not paying attention to either the context or the words employed...as well as the fact that Christ is answering Jews concerning what will be taking place to them, NOT the rest of the world. Whatever He says that also affects Gentile believers is true, but He is not addressing Gentiles as the main point of His answer. Read verse 3 again..."Tell us, when will these things be (the destruction of the temple), and what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?" You are looking at the entire context of the rest of the chapter as if it deals with only one thing, it does not. He answers three questions, which means He is answering chronologically THREE questions.

BUT...you are side tracking the OP. This is NOT about when it takes place, but whether or not it will take place at all.

I am not quite sure I understand your meaning here "The elect Jews"??? There are no Jews in the flesh concerning the elect as ALL of the elect are Jews according to the spirit whether they
be gentiles or Jews according to the flesh.

Really? And you think you have some kind of clout to state what you have stated above, after confessing this? The elect Jews are those who have come to be saved after everything takes place and is finished, those who are still unbelieving Jews will not be part of the elect Jews. This has never changed - God loves all Jews just as He loves all other peoples, but only those who turn to Him will be saved just like everyone else.

That is basic Christianity 101...

AGAIN...this thread is NOT about when it happens, but why those who don't believe in the rapture believe that. Please get back on track or state your opinions in your own thread. Thanks.

..

 

[Samson2020]

I'll pass on further comment.
But, I would like to know how many LAST TRUMPS there are according to you???

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

I'll pass on further comment.
But, I would like to know how many LAST TRUMPS there are according to you???

LOL I'm pretty sure Samson was not asking this of me but how many last trumps can there be....is there a first last? Then comes a second last followed by a third?

 

[Shaolin]

I'll pass on further comment.
But, I would like to know how many LAST TRUMPS there are according to you???

Not according to me...according to Scripture. The seventh trumpet of the trumpet judgments is NEVER called "the last trump" or "the last trumpet" in Scripture. You assume much in order to make your personal theology sound legitimate.

..

 

[Samson2020]

LOL I'm pretty sure Samson was not asking this of me but how many last trumps can there be....is there a first last? Then comes a second last followed by a third?

My point exactly. There can only be one LAST TRUMP!