Why don't you believe in the Rapture?

[Admon Mikha'el]

Now you're b

So then you're like the rest who claim that they're the only one "led" by the Holy Spirit ?? And yet still cannot agree about what Truth is.

The Holy Spirit is NOT "well capable" of taking a perverted translation of the Bible and magically creating lemonade out of it. But it CAN and most certainly WILL give your spirit a pause when one reads a particular passage that IS mistranslated. Time and again, I've found the initial Greek texts to provide Truth, where a translation gives you the traditions of men.


You do realize that the logical conclusion of this belief is that the teaching of the Holy Spirit is irrational - that it contradicts human intellect.

And just what do you think all these translators use when making your English versions of the Bible if not their intellect and their education? Do they roll dice? Do they go into some Holy Spirit trance and do automatic writing? Have you ever spoken with a translator to find out? Have you taken classes in the Greek language? How many people do you need to belittle? Mounce? Wallace? Green? FF Bruce? Metzger?

Your view completely disconnects all intellect from the Holy Spirit.

So much for "come let us reason together...." REASON !! ... Heaven forbid !!

Rhema


The real problem here is that most Christians reject the use of their brain to learn things.

Now you're blowing smoke

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

This needed to be handled in a separate post, and as this topic is off point from the OP, I'll read your reply without further comment here.

What do you mean by "His Word" ??

Thanks,
Rhema

This needed to be handled in a separate post, and as this topic is off point from the OP, I'll read your reply without further comment here.

What do you mean by "His Word" ??

Thanks,
Rhema

Hmmm.....What I mean by "His Word" is simply His Word....everything He ever said in the bible. But you already knew that.

 

[Rhema]

Now you're b

Now you're blowing smoke

Nonsensical answers need no reply. You are quite welcome to live with the ignorance you embrace. (As you said, you and I are quite different.)

Kindly,
Rhema

But you already knew that.

No. My Bible says differently - but then I read the Greek directly. Thanks.

 

[Shaolin]

The Incredible Cover Up

Exposing the Origins of Rapture Theories.

www.goodreads.com

The Great Rapture Hoax

Book by MacPherson, Dave

www.goodreads.com

Yeah...I looked up the author and his history, he's a crock that blames the rapture for everything (practically) that has gone wrong in his life, including his mother's death. Ridiculous nonsense...and the main points that he brings up is schizophrenic nonsense from his own carnal mind, not Scripture (of course, he does use Scripture, but in the same way that JW's and Mormons do...twisting them to his own bias).

..

 

[Shaolin]

The false doctrine of the rapture and the second coming being one event is false teaching....You keep overlapping the two. You said you were called to teach.....So teach the truth...not your fables

I missed that post...if he has been called by God to be a teacher, then I'm a tennis shoe...

Those whom God calls He also equips and gifts for that specific purpose, and I see no equipping or gifting in anything that he has said that I have read.

..

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Nonsensical answers need no reply. You are quite welcome to live with the ignorance you embrace. (As you said, you and I are quite different.)

Kindly,
Rhema


No. My Bible says differently - but then I read the Greek directly. Thanks.

You're the one giving nonsensical answers..Sorry

 

[Shaolin]

The dead in Christ rise first per the words of God. And the dead in Christ are not raised until the last day per the words of God.

Not hard to comprehend.

Evidently you don't understand how to read or comprehend what you are reading...

1 Corinthians 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

The dead will be raised, a second later those of us who are actually walking with God will be changed (translated) and taken up. It will happen so quickly that the timing between the dead being raised and our translation will almost seem as one event...

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Again...if you were called by God to be a teacher, then I am a tennis shoe. Those who are truly called by God into any of the five-fold church offices of ministry are gifted and equipped by God so that they can see the truth in Scripture. You have demonstrated that you do not have that gifting or equipping.

..

 

[Shaolin]

It's only "the Word" as your interpretation. I am encouraging people to buy a book that shows the HISTORY of the development of this interpretation.

Go back and ask Martin Luther about the "rapture" and he'll stare at you like there's a tree growing out of your head.

Before the Brethren Church created the false doctrine of the rapture in the 1800's it didn't exist.

Thanks,
Rhema

That's funny, "rhema," the Bible teaches a catching away of the church, which came out before "the Brethren Church" was ever around. Again, the author of these anti-rapture books was a schizophrenic and, like many false prophets today and in the past, has about as much clout as the founders of the JW or Mormon churches.

...

 

[Shaolin]

Rhema...I don't care on whit about interpretation, translation, or perspicuity. I only care that the Holy Spirit is well capable of taking any bible on the planet, any version or translation, and teaching the truth of His Word anytime....The real problem here is that most Christians, from what I can see, prefer to trust their own intellect rather than the Holy Spirit, to teach them.

A lot of what he said in his post is accurate and true, that - however - does not make his conclusions true. There are numerous faults with the KJV, as well as other versions, because the so-called scholars who translated them did so through their own biases, which can be demonstrated any time, any where, when we come to learn the original language that the Scriptures were written in. Even the best version on the market today (the ESV) has translational errors because they chose to re-translate the Revised Version but ignored the Greek grammar - because they didn't go back to the original manuscripts.

The best translation would be a thought-for-thought translation, but no one wants to do that because if they did, your NT would be twice as thick as it is today. They would rather render it in a word-for-word correlation (which is IMPOSSIBLE and come away with what is actually being communicated) so that they can make more money off of a "smaller" version. Whenever truth is compromised for ANY reason, what you are reading is woefully inadequate. Can you still get saved and walk with God from these versions? Sure...but until we go back to the originals we will not have the fullness of the truth.

..

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Evidently you don't understand how to read or comprehend what you are reading...

1 Corinthians 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

The dead will be raised, a second later those of us who are actually walking with God will be changed (translated) and taken up. It will happen so quickly that the timing between the dead being raised and our translation will almost seem as one event...

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Again...if you were called by God to be a teacher, then I am a tennis shoe. Those who are truly called by God into any of the five-fold church offices of ministry are gifted and equipped by God so that they can see the truth in Scripture. You have demonstrated that you do not have that gifting or equipping.

..

Crystal clear to those who are not trying to push a false doctrine.

So when do the dead in Christ rise first? The answer is below…

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture cannot get past this fact. The dead in Christ rise FIRST, and that does not happen until the LAST DAY!

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

I missed that post...if he has been called by God to be a teacher, then I'm a tennis shoe...

Again...if you were called by God to be a teacher, then I am a tennis shoe

..

I missed that post too, perhaps you two can provide where I said that, or else be found to “bear false witness”

I’ll be waiting……..

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Exodus 20:16
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Deuteronomy 5:20
Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Proverbs 25:18
A man that beareth false witness against his neighbour is a maul, and a sword, and a sharp arrow.
Matthew 19:18
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

 

[Rhema]

Yeah...I looked up the author and his history, he's a crock

So ? Paul was a murderer, should we dismiss the content of his books?

The thing one should ask is, are the facts in the book correct? Surely you would be one to want to delve into the history of the doctrine rather than just swallowing it hook line and sinker. Do you embrace Hal Lindsey's work? The Flat Earth people? Where does it end?

he does use Scripture, but in the same way that JW's and Mormons do...twisting them to his own bias).

(Look who's talking.) It's been awhile since I read the book, but this was mostly an historical account of how the Rapture Doctrine spread into the Protestant Church via the Plymouth Brethren - specifically John Darby, after a woman in the church had an ecstatic vision. Truth be told, the Rapture Doctrine is based upon a single woman's trance vision. (Maybe you need to look her up - Margret MacDonald.)

Margaret MacDonald / The origin of the Rapture - Israel & The Church in the Last Days

At church and we hear fabulous teachings of the Rapture; however, when we get home, we can’t find the word. That is because the Rapture is not in the Bible and does not come from any Bible reference. It comes from the ecstatic utterances of Margaret MacDonald in 1830. In 1830, Margaret MacDonald...

openingtheseals.com

And have you "looked up" John Nelson Darby? What think ye of him?

John Darby: Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory

As Samuel Tregelles wrote in 1864, concerning this teaching, ‘…The theory of a secret coming of Christ was first brought forth about 1832. …I am not aware that there was any definite teaching that…

thetruthsource.org

Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD

Your "Rapture" doctrine came from a Calvinist. Hmmmm....

Rhema

I am curious, I have heard some who claim to be Christians that they do not believe in the Rapture, but never get information on why they don't

Remember.. YOU asked....

 

[Rhema]

You have demonstrated that you do not have that gifting or equipping.

Says the pot to the kettle... (And yes, I know your comment was about @StewardoftheMystery.)

Shaolin, I would highly encourage you to go back and re-read your post. Nothing you said differs from what you quoted him saying. (But then you go and insult the guy??)



Just go check it out again. Then try and explain how what you said was different from the part you quoted.

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

about as much clout as the founders of the JW or Mormon churches.

HA... You wish you had that much clout. Those founders had influence on millions of people. What's your count? ( I think I'm up to about 32.)

That's funny, "rhema," the Bible teaches a catching away of the church,

Up until John Darby, there was ever only ONE second coming preached by the Church. Not a second and a third coming, nor a Second Coming part 1 and part 2, where part 1 was "secret" and unseen (rather like the Second Coming in the JW fantasy of 1914) with part 2 happening 7 years later.

The WHOLE world sees the Gathering (what you call the Rapture).

(Matthew 24:30-31 KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

So best to not insult somebody about their reading comprehension.

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Shaolin]

Crystal clear to those who are not trying to push a false doctrine.

So when do the dead in Christ rise first? The answer is below…

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture cannot get past this fact. The dead in Christ rise FIRST, and that does not happen until the LAST DAY!

LOL! What a false teacher! Nice try, but you fail...again. You have done absolutely NOTHING to substantiate this nonsense, re-quoting what I have already addressed - with NO explanation as to what I pointed out - only shows your incompetence in what you claim to have knowledge of. Please, try to act next in maturity, not childishness.

..

 

[Shaolin]

I missed that post too, perhaps you two can provide where I said that, or else be found to “bear false witness”

I’ll be waiting……..

Well, don't wait from me...he is the one who said that you said it.

..

 

[Shaolin]

So ? Paul was a murderer, should we dismiss the content of his books?

Wow...for someone who claims to be able to understand Scripture, you demonstrate otherwise. Paul never actually murdered anyone...where do you read that he did? He only dragged believers to the Sanhedrin and if they died, it was on the orders of those leaders, not Paul. But nice try...you need to study some more...perhaps the Greek says he murdered someone, but where (in your mind)?

The thing one should ask is, are the facts in the book correct? Surely you would be one to want to delve into the history of the doctrine rather than just swallowing it hook line and sinker.

Yes, indeed...and earlier today it came to mind that I have not yet done a full examination on the subject, so I have started one. Having stated that, from having read and studied Scripture over many years, setting bias aside, I do believe in the rapture from what the facts say. As far as your question on Biblical facts, what God gives us in His Word are facts (in the original, of course, I cannot yet speak to translations).

Do you embrace Hal Lindsey's work? The Flat Earth people? Where does it end?

I have never read Hal Lindseys works, so I have no idea. It depends upon whether he is reading Scripture correctly or not. You already know my stand on flat earth nonsense, having been kicked off the new age forum where we first met.

(Look who's talking.)

Meaning? Be careful...

It's been awhile since I read the book, but this was mostly an historical account of how the Rapture Doctrine spread into the Protestant Church via the Plymouth Brethren - specifically John Darby, after a woman in the church had an ecstatic vision. Truth be told, the Rapture Doctrine is based upon a single woman's trance vision. (Maybe you need to look her up - Margret MacDonald.)

Like I already stated very clearly, Scripture teaches the catching away of the church, long before some moron decided to act in opposition to it...

Margaret MacDonald / The origin of the Rapture - Israel & The Church in the Last Days

At church and we hear fabulous teachings of the Rapture; however, when we get home, we can’t find the word. That is because the Rapture is not in the Bible and does not come from any Bible reference. It comes from the ecstatic utterances of Margaret MacDonald in 1830. In 1830, Margaret MacDonald...

openingtheseals.com

And have you "looked up" John Nelson Darby? What think ye of him?

No, I have not. I have no opinion on him specifically...as to what I think of people in the past and their personal interpretations upon Scripture, I don't bother. It doesn't matter - IF they understood Scripture correctly, then I would be in agreement with them...but past experience has shown me that many who claim to know what Scripture teaches really don't have a clue - primarily because they have never been taught how to correctly read and interpret Scripture through a complete Biblical hermeneutic.

John Darby: Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory

As Samuel Tregelles wrote in 1864, concerning this teaching, ‘…The theory of a secret coming of Christ was first brought forth about 1832. …I am not aware that there was any definite teaching that…

thetruthsource.org

Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD

Your "Rapture" doctrine came from a Calvinist. Hmmmm....

Wrong again...it is taught in Scripture:

Matthew 24:36-42
36 "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,
39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.
42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

Luke 17:34-35
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left.
35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left."

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all die, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Rhema

Remember.. YOU asked....

Yes, I did...and so far, you are the only one who has addressed the OP! Thanks! HOWEVER...you have not addressed it from a Scriptural viewpoint yet, only what morons in the past have said about it. What do you do with passages like those above?

..

 

[Shaolin]

Says the pot to the kettle... (And yes, I know your comment was about @StewardoftheMystery.)

Negative, but nice try...

Shaolin, I would highly encourage you to go back and re-read your post. Nothing you said differs from what you quoted him saying. (But then you go and insult the guy??)

Evidently you missed the point...I was re-iterating what he blatantly ignored. This is why Scripture repeats itself so many times...because people like STM purposely skip over what they don't like...like Thomas Jefferson, blackening out what he didn't like in his Bible (I dare say he has been paying the price now for 200 years).

..

 

[Shaolin]

HA... You wish you had that much clout. Those founders had influence on millions of people. What's your count? ( I think I'm up to about 32.)

No, I doubt wish to have that kind of clout, if that is what you want to call it. Clout in false doctrines and false religions is not "clout" in my book. If that's the kind of "clout" that you have...whoa, nellie!

Up until John Darby, there was ever only ONE second coming preached by the Church.

And that proves...what? Jesus' identity to the church as God in the flesh was never questioned until, when...over 200 hundred years after the fact; and Scripture does teach His divinity, so your point is moot.

Not a second and a third coming, nor a Second Coming part 1 and part 2, where part 1 was "secret" and unseen (rather like the Second Coming in the JW fantasy of 1914) with part 2 happening 7 years later.

Yep...and all of that is irrelevant. You are again coming from the point of view of morons in the past - and I say again, what do YOU base a nonbelief in the rapture upon from Scripture, particularly when it is clearly taught in Scripture?

The WHOLE world sees the Gathering (what you call the Rapture).

(Matthew 24:30-31 KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So best to not insult somebody about their reading comprehension.

First off...there is a difference between faulty reading comprehension and misinterpretation of Scripture, I do not lump the two terms together, because they are not the same thing.
Secondly, you are doing what the others were doing earlier, who have not given up because they had no explanation...perhaps you do. There are passages in the NT that address the rapture AND what you call "the gathering" which is at the end of the Great Tribulation - they are two separate events. The passage above addresses the second coming, not the rapture. No one will see Him coming at the rapture, and He won't be coming with power and great glory...you confuse those passages.

I think that while I am doing my study, you should conduct one of your own from Scripture - ignoring what morons in the past have said, sticking with Scripture only.

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