Why we should at least know where God's true church is...

[Dee1]

During the dark ages the church that ruled the world said, "the church is where the truth is"

And a group of men rose up that said, "the truth could not be confined inside walls, and established by arbitrary decrees"

They held to the belief that "the truth is where the church is"

You're seeing the difference right, one group will always seek to control the truth, control Christ, and his church. Is this not the prevailing spirit that were seeing rise again today...

The other instead of seeking to exercise control over the truth, and power over the followers of the truth only seek to follow, and lead others to Him who is the Truth.

The bible describes these followers of ...the way, the..., and the life" (Jn 14:6) as, "Rev_14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb."

Jesus inspired John to write and disclose who the church of God is at the end times and where it may be found:
Rev 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. " There's the true church, that believes like Jesus by maintaing the exact faith that Jesus and His disciples had and kept to the end of time.

And what do we find them doing, keeping all God's commandments, and worshiping God His way amidst forced religious control and persecution. (see the context of verse 12 and you'll recognize it is a time of trial)

Here is God's true church, and here are the true church books where the true members are enrolled, "Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Salvation does not come through a church, it comes through Christ, and we must be enrolled in the books above "in Christ" (see John ch. 15) if we are to be saved.

Rev_20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire... look and compare these two verses carefully, "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

There's where you're true church is found, IN CHRIST, and Jesus said everything outside of Him, every single thing not abiding in Him would be burned.

The book of Life is the book of Christ, HE ALONE IS WORTHY TO BE YOUR TRUE SHEPHERD AND CHIEF PASTOR! All that an earthly pastor can do is LEAD MEN TO CHRIST & SEEK TO ESTABLISH AND ROOT THEM "IN CHRIST " their only true source of strength. Anything other than this is leading men to broken cisterns which can hold no water, Christ is the only wellspring of LIFE.

The first duty of every true pastor is to graft the members into Christ that they may be established in the faith, and be able to stand not as weaklings propped up by man but by the power of Christ.

All those "In Christ" will hear His voice, and will "follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth..." Rev. 14:4 and will be found in God's true chruch.

Did you know that the true church, and the false church are symbolized as a woman, and the verse below reveals many will be defiled and lost by a false church system that pervades society...

Rev_14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb. .
What does this mean they are virgins... what is a virgin spiritual experience?

2Co_11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; ...Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

What is the true purpose of God's Church?
What are the identifying marks of God's true Church?



**

 

[RJ]

During the dark ages the church that ruled the world said, "the church is where the truth is"

And a group of men rose up that said, "the truth could not be confined inside walls, and established by arbitrary decrees"

They held to the belief that "the truth is where the church is"

You're seeing the difference right, one group will always seek to control the truth, control Christ, and his church. Is this not the prevailing spirit that were seeing rise again today...

The other instead of seeking to exercise control over the truth, and power over the followers of the truth only seek to follow, and lead others to Him who is the Truth.

The bible describes these followers of ...the way, the..., and the life" (Jn 14:6) as, "Rev_14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb."

Jesus inspired John to write and disclose who the church of God is at the end times and where it may be found:
Rev 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. " There's the true church, that believes like Jesus by maintaing the exact faith that Jesus and His disciples had and kept to the end of time.

And what do we find them doing, keeping all God's commandments, and worshiping God His way amidst forced religious control and persecution. (see the context of verse 12 and you'll recognize it is a time of trial)

Here is God's true church, and here are the true church books where the true members are enrolled, "Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Salvation does not come through a church, it comes through Christ, and we must be enrolled in the books above "in Christ" (see John ch. 15) if we are to be saved.

Rev_20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire... look and compare these two verses carefully, "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

There's where you're true church is found, IN CHRIST, and Jesus said everything outside of Him, every single thing not abiding in Him would be burned.

The book of Life is the book of Christ, HE ALONE IS WORTHY TO BE YOUR TRUE SHEPHERD AND CHIEF PASTOR! All that an earthly pastor can do is LEAD MEN TO CHRIST & SEEK TO ESTABLISH AND ROOT THEM "IN CHRIST " their only true source of strength. Anything other than this is leading men to broken cisterns which can hold no water, Christ is the only wellspring of LIFE.

The first duty of every true pastor is to graft the members into Christ that they may be established in the faith, and be able to stand not as weaklings propped up by man but by the power of Christ.

All those "In Christ" will hear His voice, and will "follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth..." Rev. 14:4 and will be found in God's true chruch.

Did you know that the true church, and the false church are symbolized as a woman, and the verse below reveals many will be defiled and lost by a false church system that pervades society...

Rev_14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb. .
What does this mean they are virgins... what is a virgin spiritual experience?

2Co_11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; ...Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

What is the true purpose of God's Church?
What are the identifying marks of God's true Church?

*

It is all believers, the church universal and Christ will gather the entire church during the rapture both the dead in Christ and physically alive in Christ!

What is the true purpose of God's Church?

To spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

What are the identifying marks of God's true Church?

For two, preaching and teaching the word of God.

 

[Peter]

Is it possible to know who make up God's true church?
Discernment from the Spirit of truth, as to who is a person of truth.
... and where the true Church is?
Wherever a person/people of truth gather with others (people of truth or not) to fellowship in truth. Jesus Christ started out this way, one man of truth with other people who were not yet of truth.

 

[vangard]

Question 1: what is the true purpose of God's church?

To be set apart. Sanctification which is the will of God (1 Th. 4.3)

Righteousness, holiness:

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son (Rom. 8. 29)

To be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (2 Th. 2.13)

To be presented to the LORD as a pure virgin (2 Cor. 11.2)


Question 2: What are the identifying marks of God's true Church?

1. They keep the commandments of God:

‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
(John 15.20)

Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. (1 John 3. 6)

2. They love God and the children of God

In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
(1 John 3. 10)

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.
(1 John 5. 2-3)


3. They hear those who are of God rather than the world

They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1 John 4. 5-6)

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

The church is the body of Christ: everyone filled with The Holy Spirit!
Its purpose: glorify God by making disciples for Christ!

But... I would not criticize the Roman Catholic church. The Roman Catholic church is the vessel that God used to establish and maintain essential doctrines, and to propel the church throughout the millennia. God used The Roman Catholic church to defend the divinity of Christ, and to defend the humanity of Christ, and to establish the trinity, and to define which books are scripture and which are not! The Roman Catholic church, even if it may have slightly gone away from core biblical teachings in the past few years, is still the Mother church ! Always has been, always will be!

 

[Travis]

But... I would not criticize the Roman Catholic church. The Roman Catholic church is the vessel that God used to establish and maintain essential doctrines, and to propel the church throughout the millennia. God used The Roman Catholic church to defend the divinity of Christ, and to defend the humanity of Christ, and to establish the trinity, and to define which books are scripture and which are not! The Roman Catholic church, even if it may have slightly gone away from core biblical teachings in the past few years, is still the Mother church ! Always has been, always will be!

I respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree

 

[rag4aCrown]

What is consuming your heart? mind? body? and strength? Jesus or this world.
We can not serve two masters... this world is the beast; full of fleshly lust and worldly treasures and greed for the dollar, and it is rising in one accord with itself and the worlds churches are caught up in it.
They honor Him with their lips, but their heart is far from Him.
What is consuming your heart?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

What is consuming your heart? mind? body? and strength? Jesus or this world.
We can not serve two masters... this world is the beast; full of fleshly lust and worldly treasures and greed for the dollar, and it is rising in one accord with itself and the worlds churches are caught up in it.
They honor Him with their lips, but their heart is far from Him.
What is consuming your heart?

Hello My Sister,
God and His written word is what is consuming my heart and each day I strive to get closer to fulfilling His plan for my life.
If I need money I will have it, if I need a car then I will have it, If I need anything to do what He has called me to do then I will have this For He has a plan for my life and if I need it, well It's in my plan ! ; )
God Bless You Sis
Jim

 

[rag4aCrown]

God's plan in our life is to go ye into all the world serving Him, speaking His Word as we go (preach to God, He listens); not as the world speaks and not doing as the world does, but exalting God as we go; letting His light shine in a very dark place (the world), being the salt of the earth (salt stings a bit when poured into a wound, healing begins and God is exalted); fearing no man, but God, who has the power to cast into hell.

 

[DHC]

The church is the body of Christ: everyone filled with The Holy Spirit!
Its purpose: glorify God by making disciples for Christ!

But... I would not criticize the Roman Catholic church. The Roman Catholic church is the vessel that God used to establish and maintain essential doctrines, and to propel the church throughout the millenia. God used The Roman Catholic church to defend the divinity of Christ, and to defend the humanity of Christ, and to establish the trinity, and to define which books are scripture and which are not! The Roman Catholic church, even if it may have slightly gone away from core biblical teachings in the past few years, is still the Mother church ! Always has been, always will be!

Hello Taylor.

One of the statements that you made above and one that defies belief, is as follows.

The Roman Catholic church, even if it may have slightly gone away from core biblical teachings in the past few years, is still the Mother church!

I would classify the inquisitions that the Catholic church conducted, as one of the great errors of the Catholic church.

No single Christian Christian organization in all of history, could eclipse the Catholic church in the depth and breadth of this evil behavior. The inquisitions were
a theological genocide, that swept across Europe for centuries. These inquisitions or genocides, did not occur in the 'past few years' Taylor, these genocides lasted
for nearly seven centuries!

"After the 12th century, a Grand Inquisitor headed each Inquisition. Grand Inquisitions persisted until the mid 19th century" (Wikipedia)

The Catholic Church believes that it is guided by the Holy Spirit, and that it is protected from definitively teaching error on matters of faith and morals (Wikipedia)

So the real question reduces to whether these inquisitions, were in fact God's will for His church?

This would imply that both torture and execution, are the tools that the church employs to spread the love of Christ around the world. There is definitely a moral paradox
that exists within the Catholic church. Either the Catholic church is infallible and these inquisitions were holy and justified. Or God forbid, the Catholic church was in
absolute error in it's doctrine, and is plainly fallible and has committed tremendous evil.

Please reply Taylor and solve the moral paradox that exists at the core of the Catholic church.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

First off, I am not a Roman Catholic. I simply said that Roman Catholicism was the mother church, and that we owe it a great deal of honor and respect for the work it did (the work that God did through her) during the first several centuries.

Now, about your question... I will do my best to answer.

The Roman Catholic church does not claim to be perfect, in fact they freely admit to making making mistakes and committing many evils in the past.

As for the claims to infallibility, those are only limited to those doctrines which are taught to the entire church as a matter of faith and morals. So, the church claims infallibility when it teaches that salvation is by grace through faith, and when it teaches that homosexuality is a sin.

So, in the case of the spanish inquisition, whatever evils may have been committed by the church, these are not matters which the church claims infallibility concerning.

 

[Travis]

First off, I am not a Roman Catholic. I simply said that Roman Catholicism was the mother church, and that we owe it a great deal of honor and respect for the work it did (the work that God did through her) during the first several centuries

How can one be the mother church when she didn't even come into existence until centuries after the New Testament church was established?

She deserves no respect. She is a harlot. The Vatican is pure evil, and the pope is inherently and blatantly antichrist. I wouldn't turn my worst enemies over to them.

Blessings,

Travis

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

How can one be the mother church when she didn't even come into existence until centuries after the New Testament church was established?

She deserves no respect. She is a harlot. The Vatican is pure evil, and the pope is inherently and blatantly antichrist. I wouldn't turn my worst enemies over to them.

Blessings,

Travis

When I speak of the Roman Catholic church, I am mainly talking about that organization of BIshops that trace their lineage back to the Apostles. "Apostolic succession". As tradition has it (and there is very good evidence to support it), the Apostles entrusted the care of the churches to select individuals who they raised up, taught, and considered to be the most worthy and admirable. In turn, these Bishops who were given authority by the Apostles themselves, trained and taught and mentored individuals who they deemed worthy of being their successor; and the process went on and on and on until today. Both the Eastern Orthodox and The Roman Catholic have an unbroken line of Apostolic succession in their organizations, and as such, they make claim to "original Christianity".

Now, I am not making any claims about the truth of these statements concerning their ability to perfectly preserve the doctrines of faith that were handed down by the Apostles. I think they have both probably made some errors down the line. (Or else I would be converting!)

However, I do respect and admire and thank God for the work that these ancient organizations did in the early years, and all throughout history, in terms of developing doctrine (such as the trinity) and preserving the faith (although probably imperfectly, but yet preserved nonetheless) throughout the millenia.

 

[DHC]

First off, I am not a Roman Catholic. I simply said that Roman Catholicism was the mother church, and that we owe it a great deal of honor and respect for the work it did (the work that God did through her) during the first several centuries.

Now, about your question... I will do my best to answer.

The Roman Catholic church does not claim to be perfect, in fact they freely admit to making making mistakes and committing many evils in the past.

As for the claims to infallibility, those are only limited to those doctrines which are taught to the entire church as a matter of faith and morals. So, the church claims infallibility when it teaches that salvation is by grace through faith, and when it teaches that homosexuality is a sin.

So, in the case of the spanish inquisition, whatever evils may have been committed by the church, these are not matters which the church claims infallibility concerning.

Hello Don.

Hope I have your first name correct now.

I totally reject your claim that the Catholic church was a 'mother' church, Don.

Where did you get this idea from, there were other churches in existence, and way before any church in Rome ever came about.
Apostles wrote to and visited these other churches. Why was the church in Judea not called the mother church? Why was the church in
Antioch, not also called a mother church?

It would appear that you have been reading a Roman Catholic history of the church.

Secondly Don, the Catholic church is incapable of any error whatsoever.

The doctrine of infallibility relies on one of the cornerstones of Catholic dogma: that of petrine supremacy of the pope, and his authority
as the ruling agent who decides what is accepted as formal beliefs in the Roman Catholic Church. The use of this power is referred to
as speaking ex cathedra. Catholics consider this authority apostolic, and of divine origin. (Wikipedia)

Please could you refrain from using the word 'error' and the Catholic church in the same sentence.

Within the Catholic church, it is clearly taught that the Catholic church never executed anyone in any inquisition.
The catholic church simply handed a heretic over to the local authorities in a given province for execution.
It is impossible for the Catholic church to commit error, that is what infallibility means.

The Catholic church does not really teach salvation by Grace. The catholic church specifically teaches that there
is only one true church. That one true church, is the Catholic church, and salvation is not available outside of
this singular church, Anyone who thinks that they are saved by their belief in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Needs
to research what a true christian really is using the Catholic definition, The Catholic definition of a Christian is as follows.

The Catholic Church is the community of those who profess their belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, publicly affirm that
belief through Baptism, celebrate it through the Eucharist, accept the teachings of Christ that have come down to us from the apostles,
and carry out the sacramental life and mission of the Church under the leadership of the pope and those ordained in apostolic succession.

If you do not celebrate the Eucharist and are not under the authority of the Pope, then by definition, you are lost.

 

[Hekuran]

Things are changing in the Roman Catholic Church. Here's a news excerpt "our shared baptism is more important than our differences".

Francis urges Catholics and Protestants to work together

By Austen Ivereigh

Special to Crux October 28, 2014

Catholics and Evangelicals should not wait for theologians to reach agreement before praying and working together, Pope Francis recently told a group of Pentecostal Anglican bishops in Rome.

To continue to focus on differences between Christian denominations is “sinning against Christ’s will,” the pontiff said, because “our shared baptism is more important than our differences.”

Francis was speaking at a meeting with the ruling body of the Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches (CEEC), adding: “We all have the Holy Spirit within us, which prays within us.”

The meeting on Oct. 10 and the lunch at the pope’s Vatican residence, Casa Santa Marta, was in honor of Francis’s friend Bishop Tony Palmer, an Anglican evangelical who was killed in a motorcycle accident in August.

The Pope and Palmer had been working together at the time on an historic joint agreement between evangelicals and Catholics.

Palmer’s effort to build support for that joint declaration will now be carried forward by his widow Emiliana, who attended the Oct. 10 meeting, in conjunction with the CEEC’s Archbishop Robert Wise.

Pope Francis said she and Wise would now “carry the torch, this dream which was Tony’s: this dream of being able to walk in communion.”

“Everyone has their own identity, and I assume that each one of us seeks the Truth,” Francis says in the video.

“But while we do that, we should walk together, and pray for each together, and let’s do works of charity together – Matthew 25, together; the Beatitudes, together,” he said.

“We each have in our churches excellent theologians. That’s another way to walk together also, but we shouldn’t wait for them to reach agreement,” he said.

 

[rag4aCrown]

I don't believe God will ask "what denomination are you?"

Do you know HIM? What is consuming your heart? Is the Word ALIVE in you?

 

[DHC]

I don't believe God will ask "what denomination are you?"

Do you know HIM? What is consuming your heart? Is the Word ALIVE in you?

Hello Rag4aCrown.

We have not had the opportunity to talk so far, for this I apologise.

You said the following in post #16.

I don't believe God will ask "what denomination are you?"

There is a verse in Revelations warning us not to continue to inhabit a specific church.

Revelation 18
4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in
her sins and receive of her plagues.

It certainly appears that God does not want His people involved in this particular church.

So I would strongly disagree with your initial statement rag4aCrown.

 

[rag4aCrown]

so be it DHC;
God is indeed calling His people to come out of her; so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
Stop having respector of persons... all persons... mother, daughter, son, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, pastors, congregation, SELF; no one is above God. Not one.
God is waiting on us to believe His Word, forsake ALL and follow Him; Yes, your churches, family, friends, homes, cars, knick knacks, what knots, property, jobs, ALL... if they will not forsake ALL and follow Him then leave them behind.
This world's churches is caught up in this world and just as much "of this world" as anyone on the street.
Did self go to the grocery store this week for God? or self?
Did self go to work this morning for God? or self?
Did self forsake ALL for self? or God?
No one is doing it; Not one...
Even if one should do it, they would be beaten to death by those that justify themselves and sit on the pew.
Nothing has changed, because no one has forsaken anything and followed HIM.

This world forsook me and God introduced himself to me and gave me a good taste of unity with the Holy Spirit; then the world had need of me again and I yielded to it; now God is asking me to forsake ALL and follow Him.
It is very hard to do........ I understand Paul; what I should do, I don't do; and what I shouldn't do that I do.
Lord, have mercy upon us ALL...

 

[lawrenceb]

.

I don't believe God will ask "what denomination are you?"

Religious denominations actually go contrary to scripture, because they divide Christ (1 Corinthians 1:10-17; 3:3). A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand (Matthew 12:25, Mark 3:24-25, Luke 11:17). In scripture, God's people are called the Christ's assembly (note: the Greek word ekklesia .is translated as 'church' in most bibles, but it actually refers to a group of people, and not to a physical building. Therefore, the literal translation is either 'assembly' or 'congregation'). For example, "the assembly of God" (Acts 20:28, 1 Corinthians 1:2; 10:32; 11:22; 15:9, 2 Corinthians 1:1, Galatians 1:13, 1 Timothy 3:5), or "the assembles of God" (1 Cor.11:16; 1 Thess.2:14; 2 Thess.1:4), or "the assembles of Christ" (Romans 16:16). To call the assembly (church) of God by a different name, is to replace the name of God's assembly (church) with a man-made name. God considers "naming the name of Christ" to be iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19). All denominations create a man-made name to place on their man-made Church. Where is their authority for doing this?

1 Corinthians 1:10-13, "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you ; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you . Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

The above verse clearly condemns denominations. The reason for denominations is because those in the assembly (church) did not "speak the same thing", and that caused "divisions among them", and were no longer "joined together." Therefore, they formed different ‘Churches’ because of all the ‘contentions among them’. Just like how, in the above verses, those in the first century divided themselves and said they were of the assembly of "Chloe, Paul, Apollos, Cephas, etc.", denominations today divide themselves and say they are of the Church of the "Baptists, Catholics, Protestants, Lutherans, Evangelical, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh day Adventists, Mormons, Orthodox, Quakers, Methodists, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Calvinists, Arminianists," etc. But, as Paul asks above, "Is Christ divided?" If not, then how can these divided Churches be of Christ?

Another example of an attempt to ‘divide’ God into separate ‘Churches’ is at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-13, Mark 9:2-13, Luke 9:28-36). After Peter saw Moses, Elijah, and Jesus, he wanted to build a tabernacle (Church) for each one of them. But the Father himself descended in a cloud and said, "This is my beloved Son: hear him." In other words, we are to submit to Jesus only, and preach what he says. This attitude is reflected in the last recorded words of the mother of Jesus, Mary, when she said, "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it" (John 2:5). We are not to build temples after other men, or upon other men’s teachings, but we are to do what Jesus told us to do.

Psalms 133:1, "Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!"

1 John 3:14, "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death."

It is not possible to "dwell together in unity," or to "love the brethren" when denominations are too busy fighting with each other and disagreeing with each other.

Amos 3:3, "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"

Denominationalism: "The system and ideology founded on the division of the religious population into numerous ecclesiastical bodies, each stressing particular values or traditions and each competing with the other in the same community under substantial conditions of freedom. Thus denominationalism has usually been associated with religious pluralism, voluntaryism, mutual respect and recognition, and neutrality on the part of the state." Westminster Dictionary of Church History (1971), pages 262-263.

As you can see, the very definition of ‘denominationalism’ goes against the very heart of scripture. If you take the five words in bold above, for example, and compare these words with what scripture says about them, it is all negative: Division (1 Corinthians 1:10-17; 3:3). Traditions (Matthew 15:3,6, Mark 7:8,9,13. Colossians 2:8). Competing (2 Corinthians 10:12). Religious pluralism (Galatians 1:8,9). Respect (James 2:9, Leviticus 19:15, Deuteronomy 10:17, 2 Chronicles 19:7).

"The Bible in no way envisages the organization of the church into denominations. It instead assumes the opposite, that all Christians, except those being disciplined, will be in full fellowship with all others. Any tendencies to the contrary were roundly denounced (1 Cor.1:10-13). Paul could write a letter to the Christians meeting in various places in Rome or Galatia with every assurance that all would receive its message. Today, for any city or country, he would have to place the letter as an advertisement in the secular media and hope." Elwell’s Evangelistic Dictionary of Theology, (1984), page 310.

"Articles, Creeds, and Confessions of Faith alike fail to give us this full knowledge of God which is so essential to our faith and walk. They are only man’s impressions, inferences, and conclusions drawn from Scripture; and have themselves to be judged by Scripture. Whatever of truth there may be in them, or however useful, they can never take the place of the Word of God. Only in the "person" of the Living Word, and in the pages of the written Word, can we get to know God." E.W. Bullinger, The Knowledge of God, (1920), page 3.

"We do not use any non-scriptural words or expressions. These are the things which divide the members of the One Body, instead of uniting them. These introduce the seeds of strife and contention. These have been the causes of controversies and martyrdom’s". E.W.Bullinger, The Knowledge of God, (1920), page 3.

On the 26th of May, 1786, James Madison, who subsequently became president of the United States, said in a sermon he delivered before the Protestant Episcopal Church in the State of Virginia, "I earnestly recommend to our Christians to reject every system as the fallible production of human contrivance, which shall dictate the articles of faith; and adopt the Gospel alone as their guide. Those Christian societies will ever be found to have formed their union upon principles, the wisest and the best, which makes the scriptures alone, and not human articles, a confession of belief, the sole rule of faith and conduct." W.D. Frazie "Reminiscences and Sermons" (1896. page 63).

James Madison also said, "We have staked the whole future of the American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future...upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves, according to the Ten Commandments of God."

In the New Testament, the English word "heresy" is from an untranslated Greek word (word [HASHTAG]#139[/HASHTAG]). It's used nine times; four times it is left untranslated, but the other five times it is translated. This word is translated as "sect" (i.e., denomination) in Acts 5:17; 15:5; 24:5; 26:5 and 28:22. However, it is left untranslated in Acts 24:14, 1 Corinthians 11:19, Galatians 5:20 and 2 Peter 2:1. Let’s see what some of these verses would say if it was .translated.

1 Corinthians 11:18-19, "For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies [sects, denominations] among you..."

It shows that denominations cause divisions! What else does scripture say about sects?

Galatians 5:19-21, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies (sects, denominations), Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Denominations are defined as a work of the flesh! We are told that they who partake of these things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Why not? Because denominations cause divisions, and Christ is not divided. Therefore, denominations are not of Christ!

2 Peter 2:1, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies (sects, denominations), even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

This passage says false prophets and false teachers will bring in denominations, and they will deny the Lord. Denominations do deny the Lord by dividing the Lord.

When you start getting into re-definitions and re-statements of the Truth, you’re no longer in the Truth, you’re an image of the Truth. A sect or denomination is not the real thing, it is not the Truth; it is only an interpretation of the Truth, it is only a perception of the Truth. The works of men (creeds, confessions, or articles of faith) quicken no one and save no souls.

John 6:63, "It is the spirit [*not creeds, confessions, or articles of faith] that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

Hosea 8:6, "…the workman made it [*creeds, confessions, or articles of faith]; therefore it is not God:"

Isaiah 17:7-8, "At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel. And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect that which his fingers have made [*creeds, confessions, or articles of faith]..."

Also, when people say they are a "New Testament Church", they separate themselves, because they’re saying they popped up at some point 2,000 years ago, whereas God's "church" is from the beginning (Gen.1:1, Psalms 119:160, Pro.8:23, Isa.40:21; 41:4,26; 46:10; 48:5, Jer.17:12, Mark 10:6, Acts 15:18, Col.1:18, 1 John 2:7; 3:11, 2 John 1:5,6, Rev.21:6; 22:13). The "New Covenant Church," for example, is an imperfect church like all other denominations.
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[Travis]

When I speak of the Roman Catholic church, I am mainly talking about that organization of BIshops that trace their lineage back to the Apostles. "Apostolic succession". As tradition has it (and there is very good evidence to support it), the Apostles entrusted the care of the churches to select individuals who they raised up, taught, and considered to be the most worthy and admirable. In turn, these Bishops who were given authority by the Apostles themselves, trained and taught and mentored individuals who they deemed worthy of being their successor; and the process went on and on and on until today. Both the Eastern Orthodox and The Roman Catholic have an unbroken line of Apostolic succession in their organizations, and as such, they make claim to "original Christianity".

Now, I am not making any claims about the truth of these statements concerning their ability to perfectly preserve the doctrines of faith that were handed down by the Apostles. I think they have both probably made some errors down the line. (Or else I would be converting!)

However, I do respect and admire and thank God for the work that these ancient organizations did in the early years, and all throughout history, in terms of developing doctrine (such as the trinity) and preserving the faith (although probably imperfectly, but yet preserved nonetheless) throughout the millenia.

Hey Taylor, Taylor Don, Taylor Don Barret

There is a lot of clutter in the room at the moment, but hopefully you can hear my voice over the commotion. Catholic and Roman Catholic are two totally different things. The Roman Catholic church is the byproduct of Emperor Constantine pope-ishly declaring Christianity to be the religion of his empire. It has no connection to the apostles, none, regardless of what it claims. This(Christianity being declared as the religion of the state) was the worst possible thing that could have happened to Christianity. Christianity does not mix with governments of this world. It was never, in any way, intended to be political in nature, not like that anyway.

There is no succession of apostolicity passed down generation to generation from one man to the next, directly. Our hope doesn't rest upon this. Spurgeon was called by God to preach the gospel, not under the authority of some apostolic priesthood or whatnot, but by the Holy Ghost, and he was given the scriptures to preach from. We don't need some apostolic line of authority from the apostles like that. Church history is important, and passing the fundamentals of the faith down is important too. But our traditions don't rest upon that, they rest upon the Word of God. And he is able to resurrect the church from the dead if he needs be. He doesn't need mere men to pass down the apostles authority to other men, he can do whatever he pleases, whenever he pleases, however he pleases.

Roman Catholicism has not passed down any amount of apostolic authority. The best thing they've done is greedily store away some manuscripts that have been helpful in translating the scriptures. Everything else connected to them is basically apostasy by any other name. She is a harlot, through and through.

The Trinity was not developed by the Roman Catholic church. The RCC gives lip service to the Trinity, but their trinity is really god the father, god the baby Jesus, god the Virgin Mary.

If a harlot were to appear in court with charges against her for harlotry, it doesn't look good in the public eye for a person to stand up and give a defense in her honor, stating that "yes she made a few mistakes, but she's not a harlot." When she is convicted of her harlotry, its going to look really bad for those who were holding her up as some sort of moral woman. Some may even wonder if it was because they were making bed with her.

Blessings,

Travis