Will there be a rapture?

[Thiscrosshurts]

Brother Mike you just blunted my scriptural argument with a personal vision.Please don't divert the question.
Let me see if I can get a some clarity.

Was this scripture totally irrelevant for the last 2000 years?
Or is Jesus speaking of something personal and not a worldwide end times event.

Who is Jesus talking to here??

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?............

Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

Do you believe this speaks of some kind of worldwide end time rapture?

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.

James 3:1 Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

A teacher of the word should be concerned if they are rightly dividing the word.Otherwise they may be found dividing the church with Swiss cheese doctrines.

 

[Brother Mike]

Rapture!!!

Thiscrosshurts:

Brother Mike you just blunted my scriptural argument with a personal vision.Please don't divert the question.
Let me see if I can get a some clarity.

Was this scripture totally irrelevant for the last 2000 years?
Or is Jesus speaking of something personal and not a worldwide end times event.

I am not trying "blunt" your post, and it was not my vision, just something I saw on TV Christian station...

NO Scripture is irrelevant any year.........................

A teacher of the word should be concerned if they are rightly dividing the word.Otherwise they may be found dividing the church with Swiss cheese doctrines.

Common sense that God gave a goose would go a long way in helping us understand scripture..... Common sense...

Amazing to me, you can attend a funeral of a dead child that was hit by a car, and it is preached that "god" in some greater purpose, past our small and stupid minds ability to understand why (We are just dumb humans, and not worthy of anything) "god" would take that child, but for some reason it's just better for everyone that he did....and better the child is now dead.....

That is what we believe in church and on forums...

But did anyone ever thank the drunk driver of that car for being so kind as to doing the will of God for us, by killing that child?? NO.... We only get stupid in Church.....and on bible topics...

In the real common sense world we go to the doctor if something is wrong, never even seeking God's will to see if he wants us sick, and is teaching us something....... We want that drunk driver punished... In the real common sense world...

Someone with common sense would read Matthew and see that Jesus comes after the 6th seal, Immediately after the Tribulation, and that he spoke of this to those that keep the sabbath and live in Judea.... Jesus said that is exactly when he comes, right after the seventh angelic trumpet blast...... We know exactly when that day is by following the events of the tribulation...

but then Jesus said... as the days of Noah........everyone was eating and just going on about their usual business when suddenly one is taken and one is left..... The event after the tribulation everyone is taken.. this event some are left, and unexpected.....

We also find that Jesus is talking to those that call him Lord, not those that keep the Sabbath.... They are two different events...

When does this happen..............

Jesus said... when the gospel is preached all over the word... a direct message to the Church, since the Gospel is only mentioned once during the tribulation and it's by an angel, not the Church...

The gospel is almost getting preached everywhere.... thanks to TV, Internet and satellites.

Jesus said there would be Earthquakes in "Divers" places....

CNN, and CBS both ran stories that the Earthquake Count has not really gone up, but it is baffling to scientist that Earthquakes are hitting Major populations and not out at sea..... They are tracking the phenomenon.......

Divers places..... Divers...........

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Divers:
top'-os
Apparently a primary word; a spot (generally in space, but limited by occupancy; whereas G5561 is a larger but particular locality), that is, location (as a position, home, tract, etc.); figuratively

1) place, any portion or space marked off, as it were from surrounding space
1a) an inhabited place, as a city, village, district
1b) a place (passage) in a book


Jesus said this generation.......... 5, 10, 20 years left??? We are close....

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

NO Scripture is irrelevant any year...

Thank you for answering that.Thats an awesome answer by the way.

Common sense that God gave a goose would go a long way in helping us understand scripture..... Common sense...

Maybe if I was a goose I would get it.
Mike you just insulted me and I would like to correct you on that.
That's just mean spirited.

Or does it speak of a personal experience that was available to every believer for the last 2000 years.

Your last post blunted my question then diverted it by demeaning me.
Then you simply changed the subject.
I feel you did the same thing to Ozell,you did not answer his questions you redirected the conversation to pitch your wares.

 

[Brother Mike]

Insulted.......??

Maybe if I was a goose I would get it.
Mike you just insulted me and I would like to correct you on that.
That's just mean spirited.

Common sense that God gave a goose would go a long way in helping us understand scripture..... Common sense... Maybe if I was a goose I would get it.
Mike you just insulted me and I would like to correct you on that.
That's just mean spirited.

No, I did not insult you.... I wrote......common sense that God gave the goose would go a long way in Helping US (As in you, me, and everyone else who reads scripture) understand scripture..... Using just plain common sense goes a long way in understanding.... and I gave examples of that...

How you felt this was a "Direct" insult to you, is just a simple misunderstanding of missing a key and important word that is common in all English structure that denote who the topic or subject is referring to......

I was not that great at English, and I myself missed server questions about what the "Paragraph" was about, and what the real topic was about and who the topic was referring to.... So, don't feel Bad..

Your last post blunted my question then diverted it by demeaning me.
Then you simply changed the subject.
I feel you did the same thing to Ozell,you did not answer his questions you redirected the conversation to pitch your wares.

Ozell attempted to prove a Pre-Trib using resurrection events, Would not acknowledged events I pointed out in scripture because they ran against his Doctrine... and constantly ignored the word "Rapture" after I acknowledge his point in the English Meaning and ignored the real origin of the Word...
What do you do with someone that ignores scripture???

Or does it speak of a personal experience that was available to every believer for the last 2000 years.

Would you rephrase the question then.... I already stated many have felt the end to come from the start of Man... there has been countless doomsday predictions, and It could be I did not understand the question.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Ozell attempted to prove a Pre-Trib using resurrection events, Would not acknowledged events I pointed out in scripture because they ran against his Doctrine... and constantly ignored the word "Rapture" after I acknowledge his point in the English Meaning and ignored the real origin of the Word...
What do you do with someone that ignores scripture???

I did not get that impression at all.I wanted to hear what he had to say,it challenged me and I can't answer all his questions.I was waiting for some idea of what he did believe but he never got that far because of having to answer in ten different ways to present his case.

He pointed to so many holes in the rapture doctrine that I feel I could drive a truck through that I would like to understand where he is coming from.

No, I did not insult you.... I wrote......common sense that God gave the goose would go a long way in Helping US (As in you, me, and everyone else who reads scripture) understand scripture..... Using just plain common sense goes a long way in understanding.... and I gave examples of that...

Since I was the one questioning you I was the more "us" than you.
It is a debate tactic meant to demean your opponent.
So, you were insulting the bride of Christ?
Just kidding,I wasn't insulted,I was just interested how you would respond.Besides the only thing I know about geese is they mate for life.So I would like to have at least that much common sense.
(oddly enough I have heard the word geese or goose an inordinate amount of times since the beginning of the year so it did give me a laugh)

Would you rephrase the question then.

I'll just get to the point.

In post #58 you quoted Matt. 24:42-50 as evidence or at the very least a witness that proves or at least suggests a "one time"," end time" rapture doctrine.

I suggested that the verses applied to not only believing individuals for the last 2000 years but in particular to those who wield some kind of power over others.

It is at least in my opinion a poor representative for any rapture doctrine with a timeline.
If you would like to present your beliefs in full I would be glad to look at them.If they are from a doctrine that has a website then point the way.But I can tell you I have a ton of real good questions?
Please feel free to PM me any time.

Peace and as usual I agree that "JESUS IS LORD"

 

[Brother Mike]

Thank you Brother

Thank you brother!!! and once again, I should have worded things much more careful...........

Also if you will please understand... Using the stance of "Resurrections" To disprove a Pre-Trib runs into many complications....

While it looks as if a truck could be driven through the Large gaps in the theory's, of Pre-Trib Rapture using the counting of Resurrections. That can only be done when attempting to prove one side of the issue... If one assumes that both can be true, then it's not that easy.. Post (Only) Pre then post .

1) There is only 1 resurrection. The first one mentioned in REV 20
2) There is only one time Jesus came back to remove people off the earth "Rapture" if you want to use that term...
3) Post only means no marriage supper for us.. (Which was not answered.

The best solution is the solution where all the word fits perfectly together, and what Ozell's issue was his focus on just one topic, The resurrection.

Thank you for you time and thoughtfulness.. I was not attempting to degrade you in any way..

Your blessed and I will PM you..

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Brother Mike both of you have a battery of information and I am going though both your posts with what I hope is an open mind and heart.

I started out as a Baptist so I was hammered with pre-trib from the start and never found it solid or edifying.That was 20 years ago so unless there are better explanations I try to continue be a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.Having no doctrine is better for me rather than one I can't comprehend.

As you have said many times B Mike scripture all has to agree and the final resurrection does seem to add a layer of complexity.Also it is what the Jews believed in 2000 years ago.If Ozell did teach any kind of doctrine it was over my head.


As to using common sense I have to always use this key to unlock scripture of a cryptic nature:
1 Cor.2:13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
1 Cor.2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Brother Mike]

Thank you Brother...

Thank you brother Thiscrosshurts!!!!

I was also raised Baptist, and Nazarene.

Ozell's post was complicated because he used an old argument by the post trib folks about resurrections, and lumping them all together... that causes confusion...Great scriptures BTW on understanding the Word...I might add that God is not the author of confusion, and false doctrine, or belief systems are confusing because it causes one to have to ignore completely other scriptures, and twist others that don't fit the doctrine.All Scriptures must come in Line.... ALLRead with faith, in things you can't see or have experienced..and God is Love....If you don't understand Love, or what faith is, you will be confused on scripture..Would love give Satan permission to murder someones children??? Some believe that is Love, The murder of Children, and exactly what Happened to Job...They then make a big lofty case about God trying Job, though the scripture says God can't be tempted with evil or tempt any man with evil...


By his stripes we are healed!!!! Isa 53:3-5

that's not physical healing.. Just spiritual healing........after all, we prayed for this and our church prayed that and they died anyway... could not possibly be physically healing because we know everything about faith, and praying and could not be taught more....So it means just spiritual, though we could not really tell you what exactly that is..

Doubt in the Word, gives many cases of what happened to others, and ignores what the Word does say....

The Holy Spirit gave a different interpenetration of that scripture, and best to side with it.....

Mat 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Isa 53:4 Yet surely, our sicknesses, he, carried, And, as for our pains, he bare the burden of them,—But, we, accounted him stricken. Smitten of God and humbled,
Isa 53:5 Yet, he, was pierced for transgressions that were ours, was crushed for iniquities that were ours,—the chastisement for our well-being, was upon him, And by his stripes, there is healing for us.

I left you a PM... God bless, and I hope I did not confuse things..

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[yort]

Dividing the Word of God------ ozell

The rapture as a word isn't mentioned, but dividing the word you will see that it is surely going to happen. I didn't look at all the post but the one I did see was where you said it or the word wasn't anywhere in the bible. But it is you must have over looked it in reading.

As you know there are types in the bible, David was a type of Jesus,well Enoch is a rapture type for the church;

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Okay here's the twinkle,twinkling one;

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is also the remnant of Israel to be raptured in the tribulation,Rev 7:4-8

These are a few for you to chew on. I recommend to read Clarence Larkins Dispensational Truth.

Enjoy

 

[Brother Mike]

Rapture not mentioned.

The rapture as a word isn't mentioned, but dividing the word you will see that it is surely going to happen.

It's mentioned in the Latin Vulgate..... for the Greek Word Harpazo.. Or Caught up...

and your right.. it will happen..

Jesus Is Lord.
1Th 4:17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur *** illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper *** Domino erimus

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

1) There is only 1 resurrection. The first one mentioned in REV 20

Eph. 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus.

What about this resurrection of the dead?

John 3:13 "No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
Where was Jesus when he said this?
Is he coming here to take us where we already are?

 

[Brother Mike]

Thiscrosshurts
What about the ones that came out of the grave "hell" with Jesus?? and walked around the city and witnessed by many..The Rev 20 First Ressurection falls flat when trying to use it to prove a Post rapture only.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Eph. 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus.

This refers only to those raised who came out of the graves?
Are they the us? I always thought this referred to born again ones.I just believe the word more than my eyes so please explain who got raised and when?
Also I never saw anything that indicated they went to heaven after coming out of the graves(death).

 

[Brother Mike]

Sorry....

Sorry about that...

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Eph. 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus.

Are you sure these verses do not refer to all the saints who would believe on his name?
It is odd that he would write this to the Ephesian church about those who arose that day in Jerusalem and not mention the incident itself.


John 3:13 "No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Where was Jesus when he said this?

 

[Brother Mike]

Eph. 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus.

I don't know, I did not bring up those verses...

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

My point is I don't believe the word contradicts itself.
We are to rightly divide the word.
The word is spiritual and must be discerned Spiritually

John 3:13 "No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Jesus was standing on the earth when he said that.He said the Son of man which we interpret as him or at least his title,was in heaven at the same time that he was on the earth?Bi-location would answer that.
How can we be sinless and sin at the same time,well bi-location would answer that to.
How can Jesus return with his saints and catch up his saints and meet them in the air,bi-location.

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus.

How could we have resurrected 2000 years ago?

The only answer I can find that does not disagree with scripture that I have examined so far would require bi-location.

The mystery of Christ and his bride is that he is coming back with with Christ's saints for a perfected bride company.There has been a bride company with him since his resurrection they are seated with him and already have their white raiment.They are incorruptible,in the twinkling of an eye the corruptble will be inaved and obltirated by incorruption.Our tent will become occupied by our heavenly body which we have been yearning for.

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus.

 

[ozell]

All of the Prophets, even David, a man after the Lords' own heart does not speak of a rapture, but instead discusses the wilderness (the place of safety during the Great Tribulation) which is right here on the earth.

Exactly what does Rapture mean anyway? ("Ecstasy, Intense Spiritual or Emotional Ecstasy") Webster's Dictionary]

 

[sojourn4Christ]

itching ears and the rapture fable

Exactly what does Rapture mean anyway?

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Tim 4:3, 4 KJV)

When I turned to Christ in my late teens, one of the primary passages that convinced me were the passages in what is called The Olivet Discourse. That's a fancy term for the sermon He gave while standing at the mount of Olives. This sermon is usually represented as describing the great tribulation as well as the so-called rapture. "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." (Matt 24:37, 40, 41) These words quickly became among my favorite verses in the entire bible.

This section of the scriptures is routinely assumed to refer to the rapture. The one that was taken was taken away to heaven in 'the rapture,' or so the teaching goes. The problem was I always read this account in Luke where we find a very important addition. It reads "Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, there will the eagles be gathered together." (Luke 17:35-37)

Our Lord's statement about the eagles always bothered me when I read it in Matthew, because it occurs there in a different context (Matthew 24:28) than in Luke. For years, I never fully understood what The Lord was trying to get across with this verse. Even modern so-called versions didn't help. In the New International Version, for example, the predators are called "vultures" instead of eagles, but even that never helped clarify the meaning. Finally, when reading the passage in the book of Luke, it became clear to me because it's placed immediately after the statement "the one shall be taken and the other left." (Luke 17:36)

In Luke 17:37, it is clear that the question the disciples asked was "Where were they taken, Lord?" The Lord's answer may be paraphrased as 'What does it matter? Wherever you see the eagles, that's where the dead body is.' In short, those that are taken are not taken to heaven in the 'rapture.' They are taken to destruction -- to the place where the eagles (or vultures) circle over 'the dead body.'

This changes everything. In fact, it means the scriptures are stating the exact opposite of what is being taught in pulpits across the country every Sunday.

Notice the immediately preceding example of Noah and the flood. The text says that everyone was "eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage." In other words, they had no idea destruction was about to fall. It's exactly the same way now, and that's precisely how Christ said it would be in the end times. Remember, the Lord said, "...just as it was in the days of Noah, so shall the coming of the son of man be." Christians are expecting the rapture instead of a sudden destruction from God that will leave the true believer unscathed, but destroy vast numbers of others.

There is just no other way to coherently read these verses. When the text says that in Noah's time they "knew not until the flood came, and took them all away," (Matt 24:39) we must ask 'who knew not and who got taken away?' Obviously Noah and his people knew the flood was coming -- they had just spent 120 years building a big boat.

In the last days' version, the ones that "know not" apparently include those that are unaware there is a great destruction coming -- they are instead convinced this is describing an evacuation instead of a terrible judgment. In a rather ironic role reversal, it is the believers in the pre-tribulation rapture that "know not" there is a great judgment coming because most of them foolishly refuse to closely examine the truth of this prophecy.

In the same context of Noah, please note how the text says "...they knew not until the flood came and took them all away...Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." (Matt 24:40) The ones TAKEN away were the ones that were destroyed.

There is even more to this passage than meet s the eye. The King James Version renders the predatory birds as eagles, while the New International Version and others refer to vultures. As I only trust the King James Version, I believe Christ referred to the eagle; however both birds are listed as 'unclean' under the Old Testament law. In Leviticus 11:13, the eagle and the vulture are both referred to as "an abomination." This is an additional sign that this event is one of judgment, not evacuation.

The eagle is a bird of prey. I find it particularly ironic that the dictionary uses the word "Raptor" as the term to describe a 'bird of prey.' In fact, in the hit book and film Jurassic Park, the most destructive of the dinosaurs was a fast striking specie that archeologists have dubbed Veloci-Raptor.

So here we have a description of a rapid and destructive event that is misinterpreted as a 'rapture.' The text clearly describes a sudden destruction that narrowly discriminates against its target. The destruction is so focused that there will be "two men in one bed; the one shall be taken and the other shall be left." (Luke 17:34) The true believer is among those that remain while the ones that are taken are likened as being taken to a place where the birds of prey are circling -- a bird of prey being designated as a "Raptor" in the dictionary.

I believe this is yet another clue from God that the doctrine of the 'rapture' is a distortion of a biblical warning of a soon to be revealed judgment of God.

The scriptures warn the believer over and over and over again to "watch therefore, for you know not what hour your Lord doth come." (Matt 24:42) Many, many believers know Christ will soon return, but they have failed to "take heed." They've been taught that they will be evacuated before the going really gets tough.

 

[james g]

If "all" the Church are to pass through the Tribulation, then instead of waiting and watching "for the Lord, " we should be waiting and watching "for the Tribulation " which is contrary to the teaching of Christ Himself.
Mat 24:42-4

Paul does not say in 1Th 4:16, 1Th 4:17, that it will be the "dead" who "watched" and "waited" and "looked, " and those who are "alive" and "watch" and "wait" and "look" for His Appearing that shall be "caught out, " but the dead "In Christ, " and we who "Are Alive And Remain."

The typical teaching of the Scriptures demand that the Church be caught out "before" the Tribulation. Joseph was a type of Christ and he was espoused to, and married Asenath, a Gentile bride, during the time of his "rejection by his brethren, " and "before the famine, " which typified the Tribulation, because it was the time of "Judgment of his Brethren." This is the time of Christ's rejection by "His Brethren"-the Jews, and to complete the type He must get His Bride the church, "before" the Tribulation. Moses, who is also a type of Christ, got his bride, and she a Gentile, "after" his rejection by his brethren, and "before" they passed through the Tribulation under Pharoah.
Exo 2:23-25


"I tell you, in that night there shall be two men (omit men) in one bed: the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women (omit women) shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken and the other left. Two men (omit men) shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." Luk 17:34-36

Here we have the "rotundity" of the Earth taught by Christ before it was demonstrated by Columbus. Two in one bed, that means night; two grinding grain for the morning or evening meal, that means sunrise or sunset; two in the field, that means midday, and this is another proof that when the Rapture occurs it will be instantaneous, in the "twinkling of an eye, " and shall girdle the earth like lightning.