Will there be a rapture?

[ozell]

(ST. MATTHEW 24:40-44)

"Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this that if the Goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

This is one of the places in the Bible people use to support the teaching of a Rapture.

If such an event is to take place, why doesn't the word Rapture appear in the Bible?

People have accepted this myth for a very long time.

Also, the religious teachers have perpetuated this myth for just as long. Why do I refer to the Rapture as being a myth?

This is good question, and we will answer that question in the following paragraphs.

 

[ozell]

All of the Prophets, even David, a man after the Lords' own heart does not speak of a rapture, but instead discusses the wilderness (the place of safety during the Great Tribulation) which is right here on the earth.

Exactly what does Rapture mean anyway? ("Ecstasy, Intense Spiritual or Emotional Ecstasy") Webster's Dictionary

This doesn't sound anything like what the preachers preach in the churches.

What does ecstasy have to do with going to heaven?

Yet still, people say that they're going to be raptured off to heaven before the Great Tribulation.

And they use scriptures such as (St. Matthew 24: 40-42) "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

To support their claim, if you go back and start reading this same scripture at the 15th verse and continue down to the 31st verse, skip down to the 36th verse and continue down to the 42nd verse, you will see that this happens after the tribulation and there is no mention of going to heaven said here.

 

[ozell]

Jesus said with his own mouth (St. John 3:13) " And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Also, (St. John 7: 33-34) "
Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither: ye cannot come."

Another scripture they use is (St. John 14:1-3) " Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Why do they, when using this scripture, always leave out the part, or ignore, that Jesus said,” I will come again"? Come again to the earth to receive you to myself.

 

[ozell]

Paul, in the book of Hebrews gave us clarity on this,

(Hebrews 11:13-16) " These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Also, the Apostle John added to this, (Revelation 21:1-2 & 10) "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”And I John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband and he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God."

 

[jari]

Hiya there.

I read this about rapture:


(1Th 4:15-18)

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[ozell]

Hiya there.

I read this about rapture:


(1Th 4:15-18)

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Hi

where will we be raptured to? is one question and the next question how will the 1st resurrection play into this?

thanks for responding

 

[ozell]

Another scripture used is,

(1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

We see here that the Lord is steadily descending from heaven coming to the earth. We have people meeting him in the clouds and in the air. This is the dead in Christ rising first and then, them that are left alive being taken. Now that we're in the clouds and in the air with the Lord, where do we go from here?

Let's let Zechariah tell us,

(Zechariah 14:1-5)

"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee."

 

[ozell]

All over the Book, we see Jesus coming to the earth.

Nowhere do we see where he's going to take man to heaven.


(Acts 1:1-12)

" The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven?” this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a Sabbath day's journey."

 

[ozell]

Why is Jesus so determined to return to the earth?

(Psalm 132:13-18) “For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it. I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread. I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy. There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a lamp for mine anointed. His enemies’ will I clothe with shame: but upon himself shall his crown flourish."

 

[jari]

Hi

where will we be raptured to? is one question and the next question how will the 1st resurrection play into this?

thanks for responding

Hi, i think obvious answer is heaven but its absolutely safe to say that a very good place since Jesus takes us. And what else that can be then heaven?

1st resurrection is another topic. which i have no comment.
But the "the dead in Christ shall rise first:" scripture must refer to the 2nd resurrection.

 

[MelodyC]

(ST. MATTHEW 24:40-44)

"Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this that if the Goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

This is one of the places in the Bible people use to support the teaching of a Rapture.

If such an event is to take place, why doesn't the word Rapture appear in the Bible?

People have accepted this myth for a very long time.

Also, the religious teachers have perpetuated this myth for just as long. Why do I refer to the Rapture as being a myth?

This is good question, and we will answer that question in the following paragraphs.

Get over it! Rapture is simply a modern day term for a PHRASE. "The great catching away". The event EXISTS as your own verses show.

You deny God's very Word when you argue about words not appearing in the Bible. Good grief you are soooooo transparent. You obviously are here to simply be divisive and sow seeds of doubt.

"Get behind me Satan", Jesus said to Peter when he tried to convince Jesus he didn't need to die on the Cross.

Once again here is the evidence to those who want to know the Truth!

1TH 4:13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.


2TH 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

2TH 2:5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Ozell

Jesus is not coming back to the Earth to make heaven on Earth. On this topic I am sure we will not agree.

I can see you are a person who picks and chooses what scriptures they want to believe and what they want to disregard.

Every piece of Scripture we have is given to us by God through the Holy Spirit. Be very aware God will punish all those to fool around with His Word either adding to it or taking away from it.

You have shown your true colours that you ignore certain teachings and twist other to suit your own purposes.

Can't be bothered getting into further discussion. I will let the Bible speak on my behalf and may God help you open your eyes to His Truth.

TIT 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11 You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

 

[ozell]

(2Timothy 4:1-5) "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry."


Now let us proceed to making full proof of our ministry.

Jesus is the God, who took sweet counsel with God, and spoke unto man all of what God wanted man to know and do.

Jesus is the God who inspired the writings of the Prophets in the Old Testament. And Jesus said through the prophet Amos,

(Amos 3:7)" Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."

 

[ozell]

Nowhere in the Old Testament from Genesis to Malachi will you find reference to a Rapture.

In fact all of the prophets spoke of the Kingdom and all things pertaining to the Kingdom being here on earth.

Now if God is going to take his faithful (church) to heaven before the Great Tribulation to protect them and keep them away from Armageddon, then surely the prophets would have told us of this event.

Instead the prophets tell us

(Isaiah 45:11-12 & 18) “Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens and all their host have I commanded. For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; "God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, and he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else."

 

[ozell]

God so much intended for man to inhabit the earth that he made man of the earth!

(Genesis 2:4-7) "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

 

[ozell]

After man was created from the earth and multiplied upon the face of the earth, God chose the children of Israel to be a Kingdom of Priest unto him. To declare his Laws and Statutes to the rest of the sons of Adam.

(Exodus 19:3-6) " And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

(Amos 2:11) "And I raised up of your sons for prophets, and of your young men for Nazarites." Is it not even thus, O ye children of Israel? saith the LORD."

 

[ozell]

Jesus spoke by Moses and had him to tell the children of Israel

(Deuteronomy 27-31 & 39-40)
"And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them. Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever."

 

[ozell]

Remember, the children of Israel are the Priests of the Most High God his plan is to scatter them among the nations where they will be forced to serve false gods and digest false doctrine; insomuch, as they will demand of their teachers to tell them smooth things and to prophecy deceits.

This will lead them into tribulation, even in the latter days.

Even so, the Lord said that for those who seek him, no matter where they may find themselves and be obedient unto his voice, he would not forsake them.

He would then prolong their days upon the earth.

The Lord did not state he would take man to Heaven to save him from Tribulation.

 

[ozell]

Get over it! Rapture is simply a modern day term for a PHRASE. "The great catching away". The event EXISTS as your own verses show.

You deny God's very Word when you argue about words not appearing in the Bible. Good grief you are soooooo transparent. You obviously are here to simply be divisive and sow seeds of doubt.

"Get behind me Satan", Jesus said to Peter when he tried to convince Jesus he didn't need to die on the Cross.

Once again here is the evidence to those who want to know the Truth!



Ozell

Jesus is not coming back to the Earth to make heaven on Earth. On this topic I am sure we will not agree.

I can see you are a person who picks and chooses what scriptures they want to believe and what they want to disregard.

Every piece of Scripture we have is given to us by God through the Holy Spirit. Be very aware God will punish all those to fool around with His Word either adding to it or taking away from it.

You have shown your true colours that you ignore certain teachings and twist other to suit your own purposes.

Can't be bothered getting into further discussion. I will let the Bible speak on my behalf and may God help you open your eyes to His Truth.

TIT 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11 You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

is the so-called rapture the last day? No

Jesus said this about the last day

when is the last day?

is it at the rapture?

when will the dead be raised?

when will the dead in Jesus be raised?

lets read

John 6
<SUP>38</SUP>For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.


<SUP id=en-KJV-26297 class=versenum>39</SUP>And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
<SUP id=en-KJV-26298 class=versenum>40</SUP>And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
<SUP></SUP>
<SUP>44</SUP>No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day
<SUP></SUP>
<SUP>54</SUP>Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

ask the so-called rapture believers what happens after they are raptured and after the tribulation.

then read the words of Jesus concerning the last day.

again you will know who is true and who is false as in the many false prediction in the name of Jesus that is being commited in teaching this doctrine.

 

[just-a-servant]

The Lord did not state he would take man to Heaven to save him from Tribulation.

I've read your thread and the answers to your posts. While I'm not a pre-trib rapture believer, I believe the scriptures do tell of a rapture-like event occurring prior to the promised "Day of Wrath."

1 Thes 4:13-18
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-29617">13</sup> Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-29618">14</sup> For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-29619">15</sup> According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-29620">16</sup> For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-29621">17</sup> After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-29622">18</sup> Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Not only does this scripture speak of a "catching away," it tells us where we will be caught away to: ". . . in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." This may not seem significant but it does answer your question about "Where are we going?"

Further, I would point out the scripture is again clear as to where we will go:

John 14:1-4
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26670">1</sup> “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26671">2</sup> My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26672">3</sup> And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26673">4</sup> You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Where "My father's house" is is of little concern to me. The fact He is preparing a room for me is the joy I have. I take great comfort in knowing He is doing that IN ADVANCE of my arrival. He knows me!

My third and final objective of this response is to ask the question, "What's your point?" You've raised an interesting question but it's significance to biblical teaching and edification to the body of Christ is pointless. It's a mere exercise in intellectual gymnastics; much like arguing how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.

IMHO,
just-a-servant

 

[MelodyC]

Good post Just-a Servant!

I agree. I can't understand what the point of this useless argument when it is plain in the scriptures there will be a Rapture or "a catching up of the Saints in the clouds with Jesus". I can say though that it doesn't Edify the Body of Christ but only causes debate and argument and division.

Paul outlines the proper way one should teach and encourage and that which is not godly.

2TI 2:22 Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

2TI 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God-- 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

2TI 3:6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth--men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

2TI 3:10 You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11 persecutions, sufferings--what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2TI 4:1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

It is easy for someone to just discredit me (I'm not that good an apologist) but when they debate and argue against God's Word that is a different kettle of fish.

I might be an easy opponent to discard through fine sounding debate but at least I know the Word of God and I'm not easily fooled.