Women in ministry

[180 degree]

1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Could you please advise me on your view of women ministering in the church with the above passages in mind.
Thks

 

[sisterh2005]

here are a few more scriptures on the subject. the bible is very clear and blatant about the role of a woman. it even goes in2 y she should ot


1ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.


1ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

 

[180 degree]

Thank you for your reply Sisterh2005.
What about preaching from the pulpit?
Be blussed.
(Blussed is the present continuous tense of blessed, according to the 180 degree dictionary.)

 

[Bond_Servant]

Remember - Back in Paul's day it was a different time period than today.

My personal feelings..... I think that a man should preach. But women play a huge and important role in the church today.

I think that men should teach men and women should teach women.

It is sad but I see less and less men taking an active role in the church today.

 

[sisterh2005]

hi thanks for your input
but we must always remember that
1) 2ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works
profitable for DOCTRINE, REPROOF, CORRECTION, and INSTRUCTON in righteousness then how can you say that it doesn't matter or it is outdated. if the word of God is oudated then what hope do we have?
and
2) Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Jesus is the word of God if does not change why should his word?

 

[sisterh2005]

No i do not believe women should preach.

 

[evangeline]

I think it is really important to understand the context of the early church. Our views can be quite distorted by our present church culture. In the past men and women worked "shoulder to shoulder" to spread the gospel of Jesus.

The early church met mostly in homes for several centuries and it was not uncommon for these congregations to be ministered to by women. Church was a communual happening with many people contributing with hymns, prayers, prophecy and exhortations. The concept of a single Pastor or overseer was also not introduced for a couple of centuries. Many congregations had several elders who pastored and taught, etc. Philip had four daughters who had the gift of prophecy. (Acts 21:8-9) Eusebius referred to them as "mighty luminaries."

Phoebe was a minister. (Romans 16:1) (Most Bible versions tranlate diakonos as deacon in this verse, but in other verses the word is more commonly translated as minister. Jesus and Paul, as well as other ministers are called by this word: diakonos. Deacons in the true Biblical sense were ministers. The seven men in Acts 6 were not actually called deacons - diakonos in the Bible) Church history shows that Phoebe was well known and well regarded as being a preacher and evangelist to many including the barbarians (People who spoke neither Greek or Latin)

Chloe was head of a church (1 Corinthians 1:11) as was Nympha (Colossians 4:5). The "chosen lady" and the "chosen sister" were pastors of some sort. This becomes even more clear when you compare how John speaks about their "children" and his "children." Compare 2 John verses 1,4 and 13 with 3 John verse 4. (John did not use their names for fear of persecution.)

Junia was an outstanding apostle (Romans 16:7) and Priscilla was a teacher. Priscilla taught men including Apollos. Priscilla is mentioned 6 times in the Bible, along with her husband; 4 of those times her name appears first.

Apphia was a leader in her church along with Philemon and Archippus. (Philemon verse 1) This becomes more evident in the Greek. All three were apparently stoned to death under Nero's persecution. Women, as well as men, were persecuted, imprisoned and even martyred right up to the time of Constantine.

Throughout the history of the church, whenever there has been a real move of God, women have played a significant role alongside men.

It is important for a woman not to usurp a man's authority or be unruly in church, however there are some woman who have been clearly called by God into public ministry. God had given them authority. Hopefully the church will recognise this and give her the freedom and opportunity to minister.

It is also important to realise that the letters to Timothy were written when Timothy was establishing the church at Ephesus. The Ephesians had long been powerfully influenced by their proud cult of Artemis, the female God of fertility. (The Temple of Artemis was one of the seven wonders of the world!) This is important to keep in perspective when you read 1 Timothy chapter 2:9-15 especially.

In Ephesus the women thought they were superior (and first) to men. In mythology, Artemis (a daughter of Zeus) was not interested in the male gods and went after human male partner instead. This somehow made Artemis, and other females after her, superior to the earthly men. Paul is merely trying to correct the imbalance.

Understanding that Artemis was the goddess of fertility to the Ephesians gives verse 15 in this passage the meaning that Paul meant it to have - it is God who preserves women through child birth, not Artemis.

Finally the word "quiet" in 1 Timothy 2:12 is exactly the same word used in verse 2: hesuchia It more correctly means to be peaceful

love and peace
evangeline

 

[fulloffaith]

Evangeline

Thanks alot for those liberating words of inspiration truth power and encouragement to women caught between the now and then of what traditionalism dictates is and is not the will of God for women in ministry today. You have my vote and I will share this word with others when the subject arises again in my presence.
Be Blessed!

Fulloffaith

 

[sisterh2005]

I did not’ say that women could not prophecy. And you must consider the meaning of the word minister to minister simply means to give aid ir to care for. IT does say that Phoebe served in the church it does not say that she preached or was a “pastor” .

Ac 21:8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him. Ac 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
Ro 16:1 I commend unto you Phoebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: Ro 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.


As far as deacons go the bible is also very clear about what it takes to be a deacon or a bishop:

1ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 1ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 1ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 1ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 1ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1ti 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 1ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 1ti 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 1ti 3:14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: 1ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 1ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

As far as Phoebe being a preacher you would have to give me some scriptural background for that And I does not’ say whether Chloe was a male or female. But in col. ,4:15 it says that Nymphas
Was a man.

Ro 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

It does mention Pricilla but it does not say what exactly she did a lot of names in the bible may sound feminine to us but that does not’ necessarily mean that it is a female.
And finally you must also realize that the bible is the inspired word of God and that we cannot pick and chose which scriptures we will and which we will not obey.

 

[evangeline]

Actually Nympha was a female, as was Junia. It is only in later manuscripts that both their names were made masculine because the people copying the manuscripts thought that they were errors. We actually know who changed Junia's name from Junia (female) to Junias (male.) It was a monk in the 13th century who thought that it was incompatible with his understanding that a female could be an apostle - so he changed it! In Bible translations that use the earlier, more ancient and accurate manuscripts, the names are female. (Check the margins in your Bible too!)

As for deacons...the true biblical inderstanding of a diakonos can be both an attendant or a true minister of the gospel. We know that Phoebe was not simply an ancient counterpart of someone who hands out hymn books on a Sunday, or shows people to their seats, or serves tea and coffee after the service, as valuable as these helpers are.

Theodoret (an early church writer) said of Phoebe “The fame of Phoebe was spoken of throughout the world. She was known not only to the Greeks and the Romans, but also to the barbarians.” This implies that she travelled widely and brought the gospel to foreign countries. Phoebe effectively and courageously ministered as an apostle-evangelist.

"All evidence points to dramatic participation on the part of women in the early Chruch." Zondervan's Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, Volume 5, p 954 (1977)

Priscilla and Aquilla had a church that met at their home for a time. (1 Corinthians 16:19) And it was Priscilla and Aquila that instructed Apollos more clearly about Jesus. (Acts 18:26) They were very good friends of Paul. Tertullian (a devout early Christian writer) wrote: “...the holy Prisca who preached the gospel.” (Prisca and Priscilla are variants of the same name) I'm actually not sure that it is the same Priscilla in the Bible because there were a few significant Priscillas in early Church times! One, other than the Biblical Priscilla, was a well known prophet.

I hope this helps.

love and peace
evangeline

 

[Eve]

Way to go Evangeline!

I also have to say that it does seem very discriminatory to exclude women in this way. It seems this subject is still very controversial, there seems to be many Dickensian attitudes around. Women priests have said "sexual apartheid" still exists within the church. (Guardian, 25th Oct 2001). Surprisingly from the thread I am inclined to believe that this is still the case.

My personal opinion is that just as it is beneficial to have a mother and a father to teach and bring children up, so is it beneficial for the church to have the same. Let us not forget the influence Mary the mother of Jesus had in our world. Disrespecting womens' rights to priesthood because they are women surely disrespects Mary and protracts the prejudices of medieval times.

I personally would not be saved if it wasn't for a very intelligent, kind and confident role model, who is a female reverend in our area. Just as there are male and female police officers who bring a different talent and contribution to the job, so it is within the church. From my experiences with my own father, I found it very difficult to relate to male fatherly type figures of authority.

The services the female reverent preached were inspirational and reached out to people of both sexes and all ages. There was a sense of humility and sincerity there that was very refreshing. Her services were amazing in the way they came from the heart and she most definitely had a calling from God. The Holy Spirit flowed through her and reached out to all.

I believe that not admitting women into ministerial roles is a social and cultural prejudice rather than a biblical one.

Thank you for raising this issue 180 degree.

Peace be with you all.

 

[sisterh2005]

I can only go by what the word of God says this is the only scripture I could find with that name in it. But this verse clearly says kinsmen.
Ro 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

As far as nymphas goes my mistake it seems to mean a place in this verse and this is the only place it is mentioned in the bible.

Col 4:15 Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

I don’t know about the changing of the names they all sound feminine to me but they are who the bible says they are the word of God is the only thing that I can safely trust in so.
As far as Phoebe goes unless you can provide some accurate bible proof
The bible is unclear whether Priscilla and Aquilla are male or female so we cannot judge from the scriptures you gave what sex they are.

But basically Satan is the author of confusion, not God. God does not contradict himself. As far as the early writers are concerned I cannot and will not take the word of a man over the word of God and you have not provided any biblical proof of what you are trying to say.

1ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 1ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings

Ga 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Ga 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Ga 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[sisterh2005]

Way to go Evangeline!

I also have to say that it does seem very discriminatory to exclude women in this way. It seems this subject is still very controversial, there seems to be many Dickensian attitudes around. Women priests have said "sexual apartheid" still exists within the church. (Guardian, 25th Oct 2001). Surprisingly from the thread I am inclined to believe that this is still the case.

My personal opinion is that just as it is beneficial to have a mother and a father to teach and bring children up, so is it beneficial for the church to have the same. Let us not forget the influence Mary the mother of Jesus had in our world. Disrespecting womens' rights to priesthood because they are women surely disrespects Mary and protracts the prejudices of medieval times.

I personally would not be saved if it wasn't for a very intelligent, kind and confident role model, who is a female reverend in our area. Just as there are male and female police officers who bring a different talent and contribution to the job, so it is within the church. From my experiences with my own father, I found it very difficult to relate to male fatherly type figures of authority.

The services the female reverent preached were inspirational and reached out to people of both sexes and all ages. There was a sense of humility and sincerity there that was very refreshing. Her services were amazing in the way they came from the heart and she most definitely had a calling from God. The Holy Spirit flowed through her and reached out to all.

I believe that not admitting women into ministerial roles is a social and cultural prejudice rather than a biblical one.

Thank you for raising this issue 180 degree.

Peace be with you all.

The bible is the inspired word of God. (1 tim.,3:16-17)
De 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
2sa 22:31 As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him.
If the bible is the word of God and GOd is perfect then it kinda makes sense to do things the way he asks of us. We cannot take our personnal opinions over his word just b/c it sounds better or it fits better with what the world is doing., or b/c it seems unfair b/c his way is perfect and is not "disrespectful".

 

[Yeshua]

Who is the teacher?

But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. Matthew 23:8 Revised Standard Bible


But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all students. Matthew 23:8 New Revised Standard Bible

 

[Kaibeto]

I got into a huge argument with a guy about this subject but everybody has their own personal view (I say not opinion) on this subject. The question is why cannot god use a women to minister to both men and women?

 

[sisterh2005]

You seem to have the need to jam your interpretation of scripture down everyones throats. These ladies stated what the spirit led them to write. You stated the same, they conflict. Since we have stated our views, what can we agree on???......................

John 16:13-14, NIV. "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on His own; He will speak only what He hears, and He will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to Me by taking from what is Mine and make it known to you."

I believe women can teach Gods word. There are many women I have learned alot from. You believe otherwise. It is ok. We can agree on this...

NIV. "I have more insight than all my teachers, for I meditate on Your statutes."

But finally I know we agree on this....

Romans 10:8-10, TLB. "For salvation that comes from trusting Christ—which is what we preach—is already within easy reach of each of us; in fact, it is as near as our own hearts and mouths. For if you tell others with your own mouth that Jesus Christ is your Lord, and believe in your own heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in his heart that a man becomes right with God; and with his mouth he tells others of his faith, confirming his salvation."

Do we have agreement? It was so easy..Glory! God Bless.

i am not trying to rm my opinion down anyone's troat. i am sorry if i offended anyone. but i was only trying to answer 180's qyestion. If you disagree with the interpretation God has given me then please bring some biblical proof of how i am mistaken but please do not accuse me of wrongdoing if you cannot show me (from the bible) where i went wrong.

 

[evangeline]

Me again...

the word kinsmen (Romans 16:7) in the Greek is suggeneis ( Strongs number 4773) Strongs translates (the singular word suggenes) as "a relative by blood; by extension a fellow countryman; cousin, kin, kinsfolk, kinsman." Kinsmen simply means relatives, no gender is implied.

Many, many times in the New Testament times the word "man" is used simply to mean "people." This is common practise in a lot of written material and it is meant to be understood as being gender non-specific. Anthropos is usually translated as "man" in the New Testament but it really means "people." If it really means a male person it will say "aner" or occasionally "andros."

Yeshua brings up a similar point. "Brothers" which sounds very masculine often really means all believers, male and female.

As for Nympha, not only is her name female but the personal pronoun used in the Greek (in some manuscripts) is defintely female too. "The church that meets at her house." Colossians 4:15 (As mentioned previously, unfortunately some manuscripts were not copied faithfully because of people's preconceived ideas and they contain minor differences)

I really do not want to be in conflict with any of my brothers and sisters. I have been searching the scriptures and looking at practical examples from early church times for a while now, and my observations at present lead me to the understanding that gender is not a criteria for ministry. The true criteria for ministry, of any sort, should be obedience to the calling and leading of the Holy Spirit, always done in a spirit of love and submission.

It is good to have these discussions though...because I still have much to learn

love and peace
evangeline

 

[Kaibeto]

Me again...

the word kinsmen (Romans 16:7) in the Greek is suggeneis ( Strongs number 4773) Strongs translates (the singular word suggenes) as "a relative by blood; by extension a fellow countryman; cousin, kin, kinsfolk, kinsman." Kinsmen simply means relatives, no gender is implied.

[Many, many times in the New Testament times the word "man" is used simply to mean "people." This is common practise in a lot of written material and it is meant to be understood as being gender non-specific. Anthropos is usually translated as "man" in the New Testament but it really means "people." If it really means a male person it will say "aner" or occasionally "andros."]

As for Nympha, not only is her name female but the personal pronoun used in the Greek (in some manuscripts) is defintely female too. "The church that meets at her house." Colossians 4:15 (As mentioned previously, unfortunately some manuscripts were not copied faithfully because of people's preconceived ideas and they contain minor differences)

I really do not want to be in conflict with any of my brothers and sisters. I have been searching the scriptures and looking at practical examples from early church times for a while now, and my observations at present lead me to the understanding that gender is not a criteria for ministry. The true criteria for ministry, of any sort, should be obedience to the calling and leading of the Holy Spirit, always done in a spirit of love and submission.

It is good to have these discussions though...because I still have much to learn

love and peace
evangeline

Wow, I understand clearly now Thanks :shade:

 

[sisterh2005]

thanx i do not want any debates either it is great to be able to have these kinds f coversations without one person bashing the other. YOu seem very patient and i thank God for giving you that pateince. But i still have not seen any biblical proof from your point of view and honestly i am starting to think that there is none. I believe that when 180 started this thread he wanted to hear scriptural background for both points of view. But thank you

 

[Yeshua]

Continued.....

But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. Matthew 23:8 Revised Standard Bible

But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all students. Matthew 23:8 New Revised Standard Bible

I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. 1 Corinthians 7:8 KJB


There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction. 1Corinthians 7:34 KJB


What I mean, brothers, is that the time has become limited, and from now on, those who have spouses should live as though they had none; 1Corithians 7:29 New Jerusalem Bible with Apocrypha


A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings. Prov. 1:5-6 KJB


*NOTE: COUNSEL(S) is plural.

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