Women in ministry

[jessid9]

A Passage that I have prayed about and done some research on in light of Paul's high regard for women is 1 Timothy 2:9-15. Notice especially verses 11 and 12: "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." [Notice that Paul is careful to say that HE doesn't permit a woman to teach — He doesn't say God forbids it. He makes this distinction in 1 Corinthians 7:12 when he says, "...I say this (I, not the Lord)...").]





Some denominations today assert a woman's right to serve and teach, but maintain she cannot be "ordained." To "ordain" a person for service is to simply give the stamp of approval on his life and ministry and to stand behind him in his response to God's call on his life. Paul certainly stood behind the ministries of women and approved of their call by God. To say that a woman cannot be ordained for the ministry is to deny their calling and to assert that God cannot, in His sovereign will, choose to call a woman to a certain ministry. We should always be careful about putting God in a box and determining exactly how He should and should not go about His business of spreading the Gospel. God bestows His gifts as He chooses, and it is not always in accordance with what we expect.

But didn't Jesus' disciples have the same problem? They were more concerned about their exclusive calling than the fact that the Gospel was being preached. Jesus had to remind them to see the bigger picture: Mark 9:38-40 "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us."

Paul, too, reminded his readers that the advance of the Gospel was paramount in Philippians 1:18 — "But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice." And this was a case where those who were preaching were doing so with impure motives, trying to increase Paul's hardship in prison.

In light of Jesus' and Paul's attitudes, shouldn't we be more supportive of women in the ministry? They are sincerely seeking to serve Christ and to reach the world for Him. Our attitude should be one of rejoicing instead of criticizing and condemning. It is time to look at Scripture with open eyes and hearts — in its biblical and historical context — and to work together in the proclamation of the Gospel


it was a cultural thing. in the corinthians the women were wild and arrogant. that applies to them


we are all equal in Gods eyes

 

[joy2theworld]

Hi everybody.
I did not want the discussion to begin a confrontation.

I am aware that it is very much an unsettled question, hence I am also seeking some views on it, and have received some very good insights from the answers.

Thank you all. I will report back in due course with my understanding of a balanced answer.
In the mean time, let us respect one another, and, if correction is needed, let us remember two rules:

1. If you are being corrected, remember, give a wise man (or woman) instruction, and he will be yet wiser.

2. If you are bringing correction, remember the forgotton fruit: meekness. If you see a brother (or sister) overtaken in a fault, restore him in a spirit of meekness.

It has been a beautiful debate. Let us keep it that way, admonishing each other with brotherly kindness.

Love you all.

SORRY, THIS IS 180 degree. Did not realise I had logged on in my wife's name.

 

[180 degree]

Excellent argument, Jessid9.

 

[evangeline]

I value sisterh2005's input. I too believe that the scriptures must be our guide in this (and all) matters. I believe that there is firm Biblical proof that a woman can speak, including praying and prophesying, in a church meeting, especially considering the early church understanding of church. (There were no pulpits in those days.) I also believe that some women may be called of God to be a leader in any of the Ephesians 4:11 roles.

I think it is important to look at the church as a whole and not think of it as just a Sunday meeting. Maybe Phoebe never did speak at an established church gathering on a Sunday morning because she was too busy as an evangelist and was often away on a dangerous jounrney, risking her life to share the gospel to both men and women in far off places. Then again it seems very likely that Phoebe may have told people about her work when she returned to her church at Cenchrea. Phoebe was not only a true minister of the gospel but she was also a patroness prostatis of Paul and tradition tells us that she delivered Paul's letter to the Roman Church. Romans 16:1-2 By all accounts she was a mighty woman of God!

Even though we know little of Junia, Paul said that she was outstanding among the apostles - an outstanding woman of God. Priscilla was obviously another mighty woman of God who was an able teacher and pastor alongside her husband. The women mentioned in 2 John were obviously pastors, as I mentioned before and Nympha and Chloe were leaders of the churches that met in their homes. All these women were simply serving God. In Romans chapter 16 there are about 10 women mentioned. These were women who Paul valued highly and were on the front line of Christian service and ministry.

Does it matter whether they said something in a meeting...or not???
I think we have a distorted view on Sunday meetings and of the church as a whole and we have placed importance on certain things (status, positions, ordination, gender?) that were not important to the early church.

I have searched the scriptures for a long time, especially the New Testament, for God's intention of women in leadership ministry. I personally have turned down several opportunities to speak in the past because I thought it was prohibited by God.

There are only 2 scriptures which seemingly prohibit women from speaking in a church meeting: 1 Timothy 2:12, which is actually milder in the Greek, and 1 Corinthians 14:34 which is undoubtedly quite harsh.

However there are up to 40 New Testament scriptures which indicate that women did in fact have significant ministries. Many of these women were highly respected by Paul and were a great help to his ministry. Some of these women functioned as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. See Ephesians 4:11

I believe that the verses in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy are speaking about unruly, problem women in the congregation who were causing trouble during the meetings, and not about disciplined, submissive and loving women in recognised leadership who have the call of God to minister.


evangeline

P.S. There are still more Bible verses that support my findings which I haven't mentioned in my posts so far.

 

[Jesuslovesu]

I want people to think about this for just a minute.... If woman should remain silent and not teach what are we doing talking at a Christian community teaching thru posts... Just a thought... Being behind a pulpit is not the only way to preach / teach .... Joyfully ~ Jlu

 

[Gloria]

This subject will always be contraversial but the Word of God is our guide. If I do nothing because someone tells me I cannot say anything that may lead others to know the saving grace of Jesus, or to say something that may help a person spiritually, then what will I say to the LORD when I stand before HIM?? mg:

Please read Chad's thread

Women In Ministry

http://www.talkjesus.com/showthread.php?t=37&page=2&pp=40&highlight=women+ministry

 

[180 degree]

We at Talk Jesus have had similar threads started, and scripture from both views has been provided. Without picking on a particular person, someone contributing to this thread states....



There has been scripture provided from a few different sources. Myself, I have provided none. I dont feel the need for this topic has been covered in depth at an earlier time. But most importantly scripture has been provided supporting women in ministry. Should we E-Mail Joyce Meyer, Cheryl Salem, Glenda Watson, Jackie Pope, Cathy Tompkins and others and ask them what gives them the right to be fishermen of men and to save souls? Its not Gods word that allows it, its there selfishness.........How dare them do these things.(very sarcastic) Forgive me. God Bless.

I apologise, but I did not read any earlier posting.

I genuinely posted this thread to get some insight.

The Word of God does not prohibit women prophesying, or teaching younger women, or even evangelizing.

However, according to 1Tim 2:12-15, their seems to be a problem with women teaching. This may or may not be linked to women having their heads covered.

I only want to do what is right in God's sight, regardless of whether it is fasionable or not.

Basically, I am undecided, but at this stage I am taking the stand that a woman can teach provided she is under the authority of her husband.
If she has no husband, then the church becomes her covering so that she does not fall into the same error as Eve. (1Tim 2:12-15)

Your thoughts??

 

[Jesuslovesu]

If you are a woman why are you posting here and sharing ? Is it not teaching in a form?

 

[Yeshua]

Word

Men are to have the final authoritative word on a subject in the home and in the church but they carry the responsibility to see that that WORD is from God and not the deceiver.

The same as JESUS has the final say over his wife, the church.

Women are more blessed by being under the man's authority as the Church is under Christ's authority.

Let those who would be first be a servant to all.

It is my hope that this will help those that will hear what the Lord has shared with me, about this.

Let us rest in his way.

I apologise, but I did not read any earlier posting.

I genuinely posted this thread to get some insight.

The Word of God does not prohibit women prophesying, or teaching younger women, or even evangelizing.

However, according to 1Tim 2:12-15, their seems to be a problem with women teaching. This may or may not be linked to women having their heads covered.

I only want to do what is right in God's sight, regardless of whether it is fasionable or not.

Basically, I am undecided, but at this stage I am taking the stand that a woman can teach provided she is under the authority of her husband.
If she has no husband, then the church becomes her covering so that she does not fall into the same error as Eve. (1Tim 2:12-15)

Your thoughts??

 

[180 degree]

Thanks, Yeshua, That is in line with what I am saying.

 

[180 degree]

If you are a woman why are you posting here and sharing ? Is it not teaching in a form?

Are you asking me, Jesuslovesu? I am a male.

 

[Jesuslovesu]

I am actually asking anyone who will answer... So where should I be? Not here? Only in the woman's section? A woman can still teach and be submissive to a man...

I believe the wife needs to have her husbands blessing... I am wondering how far many want to take the woman not teaching....because you cant have it half way it is either ... woman can teach with permission or woman can only teach younger woman or children always no matter where...

Just a thought ....

 

[evangeline]

The Scripture in 1 Timothy 2:12, as I have mentioned previously is much milder in the Greek.

Firstly the Greek word for "silent" is hesuchia which really means "peaceful" and this same word appears earlier in the same chapter (1 Timothy 2:2) where it is translated as "quiet" in the NIV. Hesuchia really denotes an inward peace or calmness, and even has an implication of keeping one's seat! It definitely does not mean complete silence.

Secondly I believe that a more correct translation of this verse would be;"I do not permit a woman to teach so as to gain mastery over a man" or "I do not permit a woman to teach with a view of domination a man." This understanding of the verse is not just my own but many extremely well respected and conservative hermeneutics experts come to very similar conclusions.

The issue here is of usurping authority which is an ugly and unChristian action whether done by a male or female. Obviously it was a problem with a few women in the Ephesians church where Timothy was ministering.

As to a symbol of authority...
The word "authority" used here in the Greek is exousia a word that I take great interest in personally. Many times when you see the word "power" in the New Testament it is usually translated from dunamis the word we get dynamite from....I'm talking POWER,...or it is translated from exousia which usually means the right to act or freedom to act, etc.

exousia is found in
John 1:12 ...the right/power to become children of God
1 Corinthians 8:9 ...take care lest this liberty...
1 Corinthians 9:3&4 ...don't we have the right....

You might want to check out these verse too to gain a broader understanding of exousia authority.
Matt 9:6; 21:23; 28:18; John 17:2; Luke 12:5; Acts 1:7; 2 Corinthians 10:8;Ephesians 3:10; 6:12; Colossians 1:16; 2:10,15; 1 Peter 3:22; Jude 25; Revelation 12:10; 17:13

As to the symbol of authority in our culture...
If I were to were a veil or a hat in a church setting no one would recognise that as a symbol of authority, however I do have symbols which people do readily recognise.
Firstly I wear a wedding ring which clearly symbolises that I am a married woman. Every one in my culture recognises that symbol.
Secondly, I adopted my husband's surname when I got married...a clear indication of where I belong...with my husband.
Thirdly, I can prove my married status with a marriage certificate. This piece of paper is a legally recognised symbol acceptable in my society.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11:13: "Judge for yourselves..." A hat or veil is NOT a sign of authority in our culture!!! All of Paul's arguments for the wearing of a head covering are because of cultural reasons. He didn't want the Corinthian women to give the church a bad name in their society.

1 Corinthians 11:1-16 is undoubtedly a difficult passage to comprehend, and most hermeneutics (Biblical Interpretation) experts do not come to definite conclusions.


evangeline

 

[evangeline]

Teaching...

I was reading Roman 12:6-8 the other night in the NIV, it says:

We have different gifts according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is TEACHING, let him TEACH; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is in LEADERSHIP let him GOVERN diligently; if it is in showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

When I read that it seemed to really rule women out of ministry, so I thought I'd check out the Greek word for "man" used here to see if it meant a male person or just people in general.

What I discovered was that there was no word for man at all in this passage, neither where there ANY masculine pronouns. They had just been added to help the flow. Why did the translators choose to use male words??? They could have just replaced the underlined words above with the word "one" or something similar.

Try it:
"If one's gift is prophesying, let one use it in proportion to ones' faith"...doesn't sound as good, but it is much more accurate and not misleading like the NIV translation

Therefore:
"let one teach" If it is that person's gift and calling!
(Obviously there are a few subjects are better left to women only and some are better left to men. Titus 2:4-6)

2 Timothy 2:2 says
And the things you have heard me say...entrust them to reliable (anthropos) people who will also be qualified to teach others. (It doesn't use the word aner males)

Finally:
There are different kinds of working but the same God works all of them in all pasin (i.e. all, any, every, whosoever - not male persons only)Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge,by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another......All these are the work of one and the same Spirit and He gives to each one just as He determines. 1 Corinthians 12:6-11

Jesuslovesu, I agree with you that a woman can teach and still be submissive to a man. In fact we should be submissive to all our brothers and sisters. (see Ephesians 5:21)

love and peace
evangeline

 

[love]

when paul said i suffer not a woman to teach he wasnt talking to the general public as we always think he was speaking to a group durring a certain time what happend was the church was going through a changing period women werent allowed in the church so they would stay out looking in when the holy spirit fell you could imagine they didnt understand it , it was a way to bring clam for that place and time not a command for all time. women and men are ment to complement eachother , not rule or dominate one over the other , often misunderstood though we are taught that women cant teach or preach in the church . simply not true the second verse written by the same person paul who said there is nither male nor female was a point made more then one jesus also said the same thing men genesis 5:2 male and female created he THEM and blessed THEM
and called THEIR name adam in the day they were created isaiah 3:12 as for my people children are THEIR oppressors and WOMEN RULE OVER THEM.isaiah 45:10 woe unto him that saith unto his father what begettest thou or TO THY WOMAN WHAT HAS THOU BROUGHT FORTH 6:2 in jeremiah i have likend the daughter of zion to a comely and delicate woman... AND jeremiah 9:17- 20 mayalso help there will always be misunderstanding on this topic however there is also jeremiah 31:22 FOR THE LORD HAS CREATED A NEW THING IN THE EARTH A WOMAN SHALL COMPASS A MAN

 

[SpiritLedEd]

when paul said i suffer not a woman to teach he wasnt talking to the general public as we always think he was speaking to a group durring a certain time what happend was the church was going through a changing period women werent allowed in the church so they would stay out looking in when the holy spirit fell you could imagine they didnt understand it , it was a way to bring clam for that place and time not a command for all time. women and men are ment to complement eachother , not rule or dominate one over the other , often misunderstood though we are taught that women cant teach or preach in the church . simply not true the second verse written by the same person paul who said there is nither male nor female was a point made more then one jesus also said the same thing men genesis 5:2 male and female created he THEM and blessed THEM
and called THEIR name adam in the day they were created isaiah 3:12 as for my people children are THEIR oppressors and WOMEN RULE OVER THEM.isaiah 45:10 woe unto him that saith unto his father what begettest thou or TO THY WOMAN WHAT HAS THOU BROUGHT FORTH 6:2 in jeremiah i have likend the daughter of zion to a comely and delicate woman... AND jeremiah 9:17- 20 mayalso help there will always be misunderstanding on this topic however there is also jeremiah 31:22 FOR THE LORD HAS CREATED A NEW THING IN THE EARTH A WOMAN SHALL COMPASS A MAN

I tend to agree with your comments about Paul's words is 1 Tim 2:12 = "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she muist be silent" Through Timothy, Paul was writing to the church at Ephesus (I believe) and we have to remember that that first century culture was dominated by men, as is much of the Middle East to this day.

Allowing women to preach and pastor in those days would have crippled the growth of the church because even in the most tolerant and loving households, it would have been seen as unconscionable for a woman to step out of her place in society and do such things.




In your Isaiah 3:12 citation, the word "women" is a metaphor for "weak men". It does not refer to actual femal

In King James English, the verb "compass" means to surround. So the Jeremiah 31:22 verse means "A woman will surround (protect) a man." That verse certainly seems to indicate that an elevated role for women was coming.

 

[krizzie]

Joyce Meyer would have to be one of the most amazing bible teachers I have evr come across. I have been hugely blessed by her teachings. Her husband is totally behind her because he recognizes her gift. He has totally released her to go and do what she feels God has called her to do.

 

[evangeline]

Dear Spirit Led,

I mostly agree with your post. There is no doubt that in the first century, society was led mostly by men - in the home and outside of the home. (This is of course true for most of history.) Even today it is more usual for leaders, of any description, to be male.

However we can see in the New Testament (and from contemporary secular writings) that it was not uncommon to find prominent women in first century society. These women may have been independently wealthy or even leaders of their homes. (The husband may have died or the woman may never have married.) Households in those days usually included an extended family and servants. During Roman times - New testament times - there were more slaves than there were free people! Also society at that time had been hugely influenced by Greek culture.


..the church was earnestly praying...(at) the house of Mary, the mother of John also called Mark. Acts 12:5-17
...God-fearing women of high standing (Pisidian Antioch)... Acts 13:50
...not a few prominent women (Thessalonica) Acts 17:4
...a number of prominent Greek women (Berea)... Acts 17:12
...they went to Lydia's house, where they met with the brothers (Philippi) ...Acts 16:40
Greet Priscilla and Aquila...(and) the church that meets in their house. Romans 16:4-5
...some from Chloe's household... 1 Corinthians 1:11
Give my greetings...to Nympha and the church in her house. Colossians 4:15

Most churches met in large houses for several centuries, where men and women ministered together. Some churches also met in Synagogues where many Jews had accepted Jesus Christ as Messiah. Some of the worship in the synagogues was sometimes more resticted and formalised.

Women leaders did not cripple the growth of the early church, in fact we know that some women had highly successful, far reaching ministries, like Phoebe. Gifted ministers, such as Priscilla (who had a teaching ministry), were well respected. As mentioned on previous posts (several times) the Apostle Paul highly respected and valued his female co-workers, as did the Apostle John. (See 2 John)

Even in the Old Testament female prophets and female leaders such as Miriam and Deborah were highly respected and totally accepted by their society. Even then gender did not appear to be problem for women who had an obvious call and gift on their lives!!!


evangeline

 

[Christsservant]

Excellent point!

 

[180 degree]

The Scripture in 1 Timothy 2:12, as I have mentioned previously is much milder in the Greek.

Firstly the Greek word for "silent" is hesuchia which really means "peaceful" and this same word appears earlier in the same chapter (1 Timothy 2:2) where it is translated as "quiet" in the NIV. Hesuchia really denotes an inward peace or calmness, and even has an implication of keeping one's seat! It definitely does not mean complete silence.

Secondly I believe that a more correct translation of this verse would be;"I do not permit a woman to teach so as to gain mastery over a man" or "I do not permit a woman to teach with a view of domination a man." This understanding of the verse is not just my own but many extremely well respected and conservative hermeneutics experts come to very similar conclusions.

The issue here is of usurping authority which is an ugly and unChristian action whether done by a male or female. Obviously it was a problem with a few women in the Ephesians church where Timothy was ministering.

As to a symbol of authority...
The word "authority" used here in the Greek is exousia a word that I take great interest in personally. Many times when you see the word "power" in the New Testament it is usually translated from dunamis the word we get dynamite from....I'm talking POWER,...or it is translated from exousia which usually means the right to act or freedom to act, etc.

exousia is found in
John 1:12 ...the right/power to become children of God
1 Corinthians 8:9 ...take care lest this liberty...
1 Corinthians 9:3&4 ...don't we have the right....

You might want to check out these verse too to gain a broader understanding of exousia authority.
Matt 9:6; 21:23; 28:18; John 17:2; Luke 12:5; Acts 1:7; 2 Corinthians 10:8;Ephesians 3:10; 6:12; Colossians 1:16; 2:10,15; 1 Peter 3:22; Jude 25; Revelation 12:10; 17:13

As to the symbol of authority in our culture...
If I were to were a veil or a hat in a church setting no one would recognise that as a symbol of authority, however I do have symbols which people do readily recognise.
Firstly I wear a wedding ring which clearly symbolises that I am a married woman. Every one in my culture recognises that symbol.
Secondly, I adopted my husband's surname when I got married...a clear indication of where I belong...with my husband.
Thirdly, I can prove my married status with a marriage certificate. This piece of paper is a legally recognised symbol acceptable in my society.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11:13: "Judge for yourselves..." A hat or veil is NOT a sign of authority in our culture!!! All of Paul's arguments for the wearing of a head covering are because of cultural reasons. He didn't want the Corinthian women to give the church a bad name in their society.

1 Corinthians 11:1-16 is undoubtedly a difficult passage to comprehend, and most hermeneutics (Biblical Interpretation) experts do not come to definite conclusions.


evangeline

I think excellent input, Evangeline