You can do nothing, BUT

[KingJ]

Christ also speaks of whats required for Salvation on many occasions which ive listed in my previous post, to love God with ALL your heart, Soul and mind and your Neighbour as yourself, Matthew 22: 36-40, to follow Christs teachings, Luke 6:46-49, to show Compassion for those in need, Matthew 25:31-46 and to not possess riches Mark 10:23-25.

Your problem is that you do not allow a fact to digest before jumping away onto another scripture.

The scripture I gave you and all these you have provided are all true and correct at the same time. There is in fact even more scripture to be considered. Tonnes.

I narrowed it down to the single most relevant Scripture for defining exactly who true Christians are. Meditate on the verse I gave you and let the fact that it ends with “you will be saved” after stating that one must be able to do A and B sink in before replying again. Hopefully, you will then better grasp the context and applicability of the passages you have provided.

I repeat:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt A - confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt B - believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

[Rad]

Im saying they lied to Jesus, believing they did those things, when they actually did nothing.

Have you got a scriptural reference to back up your assertion that they lied, because i see nothing in Christs words to imply that they didn't indeed do the things they claimed they'd done. Namely, called him "Lord", prophesied in his name, cast out devils in his name and done many wonderful works in his name, Matthew 7:21-23.

This point of Christ rejecting many of those that profess to follow him is further reiterated in Luke 13: 23-28.
"23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out."

The question of Salvation seems to be in Matthew 7:24-29 where Christ says we must follow his teachings and build our lives and our Faith on the firm rock of his truth. My point is that given that we're ALL wretched sinners and will ALL fall far short of what Christ expects of us, how can any of us be assured of our Salvation and ALL must try as hard as we can to follow Christ teachings of repentance, faith, Love and Compassion for those in need and trust in Gods Mercy, forgiveness and Grace for our deliverance.

 

[Rad]

Your problem is that you do not allow a fact to digest before jumping away onto another scripture.

I have not the time to reply in full atm, but would just like to say that there really was no need for this statement. It just causes unnecessary antagonism and conflict, if you think it , well OK, i guess we all think things about others, but when we say them or put them into practice thats when problems can arise. I'll say no more about it, except perhaps think a little more before you post what may be seen as derogatory or inflammatory words as we're ALL here to learn and share and doing it in an atmosphere of mutual respect and understanding is always better. Thanks.

The scripture I gave you and all these you have provided are all true and correct at the same time. There is in fact even more scripture to be considered. Tonnes.

I narrowed it down to the single most relevant Scripture for defining exactly who true Christians are. Meditate on the verse I gave you and let the fact that it ends with “you will be saved” after stating that one must be able to do A and B sink in before replying again. Hopefully, you will then better grasp the context and applicability of the passages you have provided.

I repeat:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt A - confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt B - believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

[Hannah1]

I can do nothing to earn my salvation!
But everything I do proves my salvation !
Praise Jesus

when we love Jesus, we naturally want to do what he says, and at least try to, to our best ability. That includes so many things, that can be seen as actions. So it is not that our salvation pends on it, but that it comes naturally.

 

[Hannah1]

Have you got a scriptural reference to back up your assertion that they lied, because i see nothing in Christs words to imply that they didn't indeed do the things they claimed they'd done. Namely, called him "Lord", prophesied in his name, cast out devils in his name and done many wonderful works in his name, Matthew 7:21-23.

This point of Christ rejecting many of those that profess to follow him is further reiterated in Luke 13: 23-28.
"23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out."

The question of Salvation seems to be in Matthew 7:24-29 where Christ says we must follow his teachings and build our lives and our Faith on the firm rock of his truth. My point is that given that we're ALL wretched sinners and will ALL fall far short of what Christ expects of us, how can any of us be assured of our Salvation and ALL must try as hard as we can to follow Christ teachings of repentance, faith, Love and Compassion for those in need and trust in Gods Mercy, forgiveness and Grace for our deliverance.

That is arguing against what Jesus came to do, He put the sin to death, the no matter what I do, I can`t get it right or fully, and take away the sin, that is why He came, because of our sin nature, no matter if we try to our best to not sin and do what is right we will NEVER be able to. That is why He came. So when you say" how can any of us be assured of our salvation " and a " all must try as hard we can to follow Christ teachings of repentance etc that is a not resting in his salvation and what He did for us. I agree we have to do what we can, but realise this, no matter if we do what we can, try as hard we can, we can NEVER be worthy. It is only by resting in what He did.

 

[Hannah1]

But to be condemned when they profess Christ as their "Lord", prophesy in his name, cast out Devils in his name and in his name have done MANY good works, to me it doesnt seem like a Tarot card reader who "was accurate a few times" but someone who did a lot in their profession of faith and their acts to prove that faith, so what do you believe they were lacking?, and what assurance have any of us that we are not included in the "many" that Christ will say to, "I knew you not"?.

Because they rested in their own actions, their own deeds, instead of trusting in what Jesus did to take away sin, what He did for us. we cannot and will never be able to do it in our own power. this is the salvation, the gospel of grace. And it becomes a run run do do do tounge out instead of trusting in him, yes still do, but there is a difference, knowing we can never be sin free and do enough. and have a relationship with him

 

[Hannah1]

We are grieved by the things of the flesh that we do (thanks to the indwelling Holy Spirit). In an indirect way that proves our salvation.

I have this strongly, and a immediate repulsion if something tries

 

[joestue]

Have you got a scriptural reference to back up your assertion that they lied, because i see nothing in Christs words to imply that they didn't indeed do the things they claimed they'd done. Namely, called him "Lord", prophesied in his name, cast out devils in his name and done many wonderful works in his name, Matthew 7:21-23.

Jesus says to them:

"I never knew you"

now to be complete, i am not saying you cannot lose your salvation. I am saying the masses who believe they are born again but are not, such as the millions of mormons who follow their own false holy spirit, are very easily duped into believing they healed the sick, cast out devils, and prophesied.

 

[Rad]

Your problem is that you do not allow a fact to digest before jumping away onto another scripture.

The scripture I gave you and all these you have provided are all true and correct at the same time. There is in fact even more scripture to be considered. Tonnes.

I narrowed it down to the single most relevant Scripture for defining exactly who true Christians are. Meditate on the verse I gave you and let the fact that it ends with “you will be saved” after stating that one must be able to do A and B sink in before replying again. Hopefully, you will then better grasp the context and applicability of the passages you have provided.

sorry about the delay in replying, the last weeks been just a bit on the hectic side,.........anyway to your point of "defining exactly who true Christians are", i've indeed "meditated" on the verse you've given me and question why you chose that one when Christ himself gives the answer as to who the "true Christians" are, if by "true Christians" you mean those that will achieve Salvation, which is the benchmark by which our professed faith shall be judged.

As i said before in Matthew 7:24-29 Christ talks of those that follow his sayings and build their lives on the solid rock of his truth and in Matthew 25:31-46 Christ talks of the day of Judgement where he will separate all people on the basis of their Compassion to those in need, he also Blesses the poor and suffering, Luke 6: 20-23, condemns the rich and comfortable Luke 24-26 and calls his followers to a life of self denial and sacrifice in the name of Love, Mark 8:34-38.

So why Romans 10:9 , why does that verse speak to you more clearly then so many others as to what constitutes being a "true Christian"?.

I repeat:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt A - confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt B - believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be

 

[Rad]

That is arguing against what Jesus came to do, He put the sin to death, the no matter what I do, I can`t get it right or fully, and take away the sin, that is why He came, because of our sin nature, no matter if we try to our best to not sin and do what is right we will NEVER be able to. That is why He came.

Thats true as far as it goes, we are ALL sinners, we ALL fall so far short of what God requires of us, we are ALL in need of Gods Grace, forgiveness and Salvation, but Christ makes it clear in Matthew 7:24-29 and in Luke 6:46-49 that he expects those that profess to follow him to obey his teachings and do the things he says, and in Matthew 25:31-46 Christ depicts the Day of Judgement and the separation of all humanity into "Sheep and Goats" on the basis of the Compassion they showed to those in need. He calls us to Hunger and Thirst after Righteousness , Matthew 5:6, calls on his followers to lead lives of self denial and Sacrifice in the name of Love , Mark 8: 34-38 and says that "to whom much is given much will be expected" Luke 12:47-48 and in Matthew 16:27 Christ says that "every man shall be rewarded by their works". We can NEVER achieve Salvation by our own efforts, but Christs demands that ALL of us give their ALL in following his teachings and commandments.

So when you say" how can any of us be assured of our salvation " and a " all must try as hard we can to follow Christ teachings of repentance etc that is a not resting in his salvation and what He did for us. I agree we have to do what we can, but realise this, no matter if we do what we can, try as hard we can, we can NEVER be worthy. It is only by resting in what He did.

None of us can be assured of our Salvation because none of us KNOW just how much Christ expects from each of us, just like those in Matthew 7:21-23, where Christ says, "Not everyone that says to me Lord, Lord shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven but they that do the will of my Father in Heaven", we are called on to be "the light of the World" and for our Light to " shine before men so that they may see our good works and glorify your Father in heaven", Matthew 5:14-16. To preach a Gospel of "resting in Christ", overlooks all that he requires of his followers, self denial, sacrifice and the losing of their life in his call to Love and Compassion. Luke 9:23-24

 

[Rad]

Because they rested in their own actions, their own deeds, instead of trusting in what Jesus did to take away sin, what He did for us. we cannot and will never be able to do it in our own power. this is the salvation, the gospel of grace.

If you look at Matthew 7:21 you will see the reason Christ says in Matthew 7:23 " I never knew you, depart from me you that work iniquity", for in Matthew 7:21 Christ says “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.", and what is the "will of my Father that is in Heaven", well that was summed up succinctly in Micah 6:8 " For what does the Lord require of you, but to act JUSTLY, to Love MERCY and to walk HUMBLY" with your God", and Christ further extrapolated this message in Matthew 7:24-27 where he says " 24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” We must strive with ALL of our being to fulfill Christs words and Commandments in our lives, to be a true follower of him, to be a doer of the word and not just a speaker of it.

And it becomes a run run do do do tounge out instead of trusting in him, yes still do, but there is a difference, knowing we can never be sin free and do enough. and have a relationship with him

It is through losing our lives in him, of denying ourselves, of taking up our Cross, yes of being a "run, run, do, do tongue out" adherent to his teachings and commandments that we build up our "relationship with him", for as Christ said in Luke 6:46 " Why do you call me Lord and not do the things i say"?. Yes we can never do enough, never be sin free, but i think you are missing out the radical call Christ has on those that profess to follow him, for it is a call that should consume and transform our old life in his service, a call that should encompass his boundless Love, Justice and Compassion and a call to build our new life on the firm rock of his Truth.

 

[Rad]

Jesus says to them:

"I never knew you"

now to be complete, i am not saying you cannot lose your salvation. I am saying the masses who believe they are born again but are not, such as the millions of mormons who follow their own false holy spirit, are very easily duped into believing they healed the sick, cast out devils, and prophesied.

I have always read Matthew 7:23 " " I never knew you, depart from me you that work iniquity", in the context of Matthew 7:21, for in Matthew 7:21 Christ says “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.", and what is the "will of my Father that is in Heaven", well that was summed up succinctly in Micah 6:8 " For what does the Lord require of you, but to act JUSTLY, to Love MERCY and to walk HUMBLY" with your God", and Christ further extrapolated this message in Matthew 7:24-27 where he says " 24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” We must strive with ALL of our being to fulfill Christs words and Commandments in our lives, to be a true follower of him, to be a doer of the word and not just a speaker of it.

Now that may include the "the masses who believe they are born again but are not, such as the millions of mormons who follow their own false holy spirit, are very easily duped into believing they healed the sick, cast out devils, and prophesied.", but it may also include many that believe they are following Christs words and teachings but if fact are not, or not following them to the level Christ expects of each one of us, For it seems to me that when Christ said to "whom much is given much will be expected", Luke 12:47-48, he was saying that the requirements for Salvation are not the same for everyone, each of us depending on what we have been given, will be expected to be "fruitful" relative to those gifts, Matthew 16:27, the more we have been given, the more "fruit" will be expected of us. . For none of us know the mind of God, none of us can second guess his judgement, none of us KNOW whether we are saved or not, alls any of us can do is strive to follow to the best of our ability and with all our heart, Body and mind the teachings and commandments of Christ and submit ourselves to the knowledge that ALL of us are in dire need of Gods Mercy, Forgiveness and Grace.

 

[Hannah1]

I have always read Matthew 7:23 " " I never knew you, depart from me you that work iniquity", in the context of Matthew 7:21, for in Matthew 7:21 Christ says “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.", and what is the "will of my Father that is in Heaven", well that was summed up succinctly in Micah 6:8 " For what does the Lord require of you, but to act JUSTLY, to Love MERCY and to walk HUMBLY" with your God", and Christ further extrapolated this message in Matthew 7:24-27 where he says " 24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” We must strive with ALL of our being to fulfill Christs words and Commandments in our lives, to be a true follower of him, to be a doer of the word and not just a speaker of it.

Now that may include the "the masses who believe they are born again but are not, such as the millions of mormons who follow their own false holy spirit, are very easily duped into believing they healed the sick, cast out devils, and prophesied.", but it may also include many that believe they are following Christs words and teachings but if fact are not, or not following them to the level Christ expects of each one of us, For it seems to me that when Christ said to "whom much is given much will be expected", Luke 12:47-48, he was saying that the requirements for Salvation are not the same for everyone, each of us depending on what we have been given, will be expected to be "fruitful" relative to those gifts, Matthew 16:27, the more we have been given, the more "fruit" will be expected of us. . For none of us know the mind of God, none of us can second guess his judgement, none of us KNOW whether we are saved or not, alls any of us can do is strive to follow to the best of our ability and with all our heart, Body and mind the teachings and commandments of Christ and submit ourselves to the knowledge that ALL of us are in dire need of Gods Mercy, Forgiveness and Grace.

I start with this one as that is the one I read last.
"one cannot know if they are saved or not"- actually, Jesus says if you believe in Him, you are saved. That is what Jesus said.
We can not DO anything to earn our salvation.
If we try that, we are not believing, and we misread and miss apply and deny what He said, that if we believe in Him, we ARE saved.

There is NOTHING we can do to earn the gift of salvation.

The sanctification process, where we become closer and more holy, is a process
And everyone travel on different speed, and God works differently with everyone
The main thing is we allow Him in, and work WITH Him
As a natural result of that, and of faith, we naturally want to do what He wants
It does not mean we do it perfect. But it means we try, and He works WITH us.
BUT it does NOT mean we are saved by it.
As a direct result of faith and sanctification we do not want to and try not to do what he does not want or like. We try to do what He wants. In all its ways.
But it still does not mean we are saved by our works.

 

[Hannah1]

Thats true as far as it goes, we are ALL sinners, we ALL fall so far short of what God requires of us, we are ALL in need of Gods Grace, forgiveness and Salvation, but Christ makes it clear in Matthew 7:24-29 and in Luke 6:46-49 that he expects those that profess to follow him to obey his teachings and do the things he says, and in Matthew 25:31-46 Christ depicts the Day of Judgement and the separation of all humanity into "Sheep and Goats" on the basis of the Compassion they showed to those in need. He calls us to Hunger and Thirst after Righteousness , Matthew 5:6, calls on his followers to lead lives of self denial and Sacrifice in the name of Love , Mark 8: 34-38 and says that "to whom much is given much will be expected" Luke 12:47-48 and in Matthew 16:27 Christ says that "every man shall be rewarded by their works". We can NEVER achieve Salvation by our own efforts, but Christs demands that ALL of us give their ALL in following his teachings and commandments.

None of us can be assured of our Salvation because none of us KNOW just how much Christ expects from each of us, just like those in Matthew 7:21-23, where Christ says, "Not everyone that says to me Lord, Lord shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven but they that do the will of my Father in Heaven", we are called on to be "the light of the World" and for our Light to " shine before men so that they may see our good works and glorify your Father in heaven", Matthew 5:14-16. To preach a Gospel of "resting in Christ", overlooks all that he requires of his followers, self denial, sacrifice and the losing of their life in his call to Love and Compassion. Luke 9:23-24

"none of us can be assured of our salvation because none of us know just how much christ expects from each of us" wrong. Jesus said if we believe we are saved.
we live with the sin nature. It is not gone. It will first be gone when we get glorified bodies. Therefore, as Paul said, what I dont want to do, I do, and what I want to do, I dont and he said praise Jesus for delivering us from this flesh. This means as long as we are here we will always struggle against the flesh and we will always fall short!
NO matter what we DO, we CANNOT do it.
Paul said it. AND this is why Jesus came. we CANNOT DO IT BY OUR OWN ACTIONS. So we have to have faith. He will forgive us the rest we cannot do.
but YOU say we are not sure of the salvation and that we have to do works. wrong.
we dont do works because of maybe be acknowledged. we do them because we love Him. He only require we stay away from what is within the ten commands. and try our best, but He knows we will never be sin free in this body. And that is why He came.
when a beleiver loves God you want to do your best and do his will but it has nothing to do with that you are saved or not.

 

[joestue]

but it may also include many that believe they are following Christs words and teachings but if fact are not, or not following them to the level Christ expects of each one of us, For it seems to me that when Christ said to "whom much is given much will be expected", Luke 12:47-48, he was saying that the requirements for Salvation are not the same for everyone, each of us depending on what we have been given, will be expected to be "fruitful" relative to those gifts, Matthew 16:27, the more we have been given, the more "fruit" will be expected of us. .

I do agree with you, substantially.

For none of us know the mind of God, none of us can second guess his judgement, none of us KNOW whether we are saved or not,

While i do agree with this, i see it differently.

Those who are born again, know in their heart they have been changed by God. To turn back to the world is a conscious choice for them. The judgement we will experience is a matter of works, not of eternal life. There is a reward according to the totality of our life. -now i do not say that the christian can rest in eternal security while on earth, there is work to be done.

But for those who aren't doing it (such as a man i went to for advice 14 years ago, he admitted God had told him "i called you to feed the poor, where is your fruit?") (he had his vacation home and wealth.) -it was not too late for him at that time, 14 years ago. He could have sold his vacation home and turned his interest away from teenage girls (younglife) and instead worked towards a more adult orientated poor man's ministry.

So while i do believe we can indeed have a close relationship with God and have deep inner knowledge of both our faults and the parts of our life that God has sanctified. IF we refuse to do the work God has called us to do, we do become in danger of hardening our heart against God to the point its over.

 

[Hannah1]

the whole meaning of the gospel is salvation by faith, and the fact no matter we try we can not do it right. we can not EARN salvation by works. that is against the gospel.
we do works, because we love.

 

[KingJ]

sorry about the delay in replying, the last weeks been just a bit on the hectic side,.........anyway to your point of "defining exactly who true Christians are", i've indeed "meditated" on the verse you've given me and question why you chose that one when Christ himself gives the answer as to who the "true Christians" are, if by "true Christians" you mean those that will achieve Salvation, which is the benchmark by which our professed faith shall be judged.

As i said before in Matthew 7:24-29 Christ talks of those that follow his sayings and build their lives on the solid rock of his truth and in Matthew 25:31-46 Christ talks of the day of Judgement where he will separate all people on the basis of their Compassion to those in need, he also Blesses the poor and suffering, Luke 6: 20-23, condemns the rich and comfortable Luke 24-26 and calls his followers to a life of self denial and sacrifice in the name of Love, Mark 8:34-38.

So why Romans 10:9 , why does that verse speak to you more clearly then so many others as to what constitutes being a "true Christian"?.

You need to differentiate between A. cart, B. horse and C. cart pulling horse.

A. Cart = Us and what God needs to see us doing.
B. Horse = Jesus.
C. Horse pulling cart = When Jesus approves of the cart and decides to attach Himself to it and take it to heaven.

Cart:

We become a 'cart' that Jesus wants when we pass judgment on any of these items.

1. True repentance of sin

Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

2. True servitude

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

3. Martyrdom

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Horse:

John 14:6 I am the way the truth and light, nobody comes to God but by me.

Horse pulling cart:

When you pass God's judgement of heart and mind Jer 17:9, you are gifted a measure of faith Rom 12:3 to be able to call Jesus Lord 1 Cor 12:3 and believe He was raised from the dead Rom 10:9. 1 Cor 12:3 and Rom 10:9 are scriptures mentioning specific signs that the 'horse is pulling the cart'.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt A. confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and B. shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.