Your Rapture view?

[jari]

i wonder why it's so hard for pre-trib believers to post verses and instead just rant about something. oh yeah, because there isn't any verses just claims and theories. im starting to believe that pre-trib is fraud.

i'm yet to see pre-trib believer to show how pre-trib view works without silly statements like "we are not apointed to wrath 1Th 5:9 " - "so pre-trib is true!" . you know, real scriptures should be used and not moot points.

 

[kevinlb63]

7TH TRUMPET the trump of god! # seven is a wonderful number seven is the number of god and of completion!!
And no pre rapture!!!!
Many say that this trumpet is not the last trumpet described by the Apostle Paul as the last trump
in 1 Corinthians 15:52. Paul also speaks of this trump
(trumpet) in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 as the trump of God the 7th trump and last!.The argument by many theologians
is the seventh trumpet!!
is a judgement trumpet therefore excluding it as a trumpet of gathering,last trump, or the trumpet in Matthew 24:31.
In Revelation 10:7 the Apostle John says this trumpet sounded by the seventh angel ends!! a mystery of God.
What mystery does it end? What happens when this angel sounds this seventh trumpet?
Is this mystery in revelation 10:7 the same mystery Paul spoke of in 1 Corinthians 15:52?
Is there any relation to the trumpets John and Paul spoke of and the trumpet Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24:31?
The mystery of the blowing of the seventh angel is recorded in revelation 11:15.
A careful examination of what actually happens at the seventh trumpet is very important in it's relation to the
gathering spoken of by both Jesus and the Apostle Paul. John says the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms
of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus says that this gathering in Matthew 24 is what takes place at his coming.
What happens at Christ' coming? Jesus establishes his earthly kingdom.

11:18 John continues to explain the things that takes place during this seventh trumpet.
Thy wrath is come,and the time of the dead that they should be judged,
and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints,
and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Lets look at another interesting scripture that speaks of Christs return and the giving of rewards.
2 Timothy 4:1 Paul says I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ,
who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing! and his kingdom.
These dead spoken of here are those who take part in the second resurrection. When ?
At Christs appearing and his kingdom and not before.
The apostle John also said the saints were judged and received rewards at the seventh trumpet!
or Christ's kingdom revelation 11:15.

The second resurrection happens at the last trump #7,the trump of god, or the seventh trumpet.
Is Paul lying to Timothy ? No!
indeed he's not. 1 Corinthians 15:51 Paul speaks of a mystery.
In verse 52 he says the dead shall be raised in the moment of the twinkling of an eye at the last! trump.#7
There is no contradiction from Paul, John, or Jesus they all are saying the same thing.
In acts 24:15 Paul says that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust!!.at the 7th!
Christ only gathers his people at one time and at one appearing.at the 7th! It is doctrinal error to teach an appearing
other than the one for the second resurrection.at the 7th trump!!

In 1 Corinthians 15:23 Paul is in agreement with John about the resurrections.
The answer is there are only two resurrections, christs resurrection#1 and the the last the second#2!!
so it is impossible! by scripture to teach by sound doctrine a secret rapture!.
Why? The scriptures do not teach three resurrections. We need to prove all things right?
Paul in the 23 verse says but every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.at the 7th trump!!
In verse 24 Paul continues saying then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God,
even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
The kingdom is delivered up at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ.
When the thousand year reign is over the second death takes place!! death,hell
and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire revelation 20:12,13,14 and 15.
In 1 Corinthians 15:25 for he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
In Verse 26 the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
The apostle John in revelation 20:4 says the saints that sit on thrones in judgement are some of those saints
that rejected the mark of the beast his name and worshiping him. The saints described here reigned with Christ
a thousand years.
It should be considered here that these saints witnessed the anti -Christ.
In the great book of Daniel we have further proof that the anti- Christ system will rule until Jesus Christ returns
at his earthly kingdom. Daniel 7:21,22 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints!!!!!,
and prevailed!!! against them;!!!!! until the Ancient of days (Jesus) came and judgement was given to the saints
of the most high; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

How can there be a resurrection before this day if in fact this is the last day? There can't be.
There also could not be a resurrection after this day this being the last day of this dispensation.
In Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he Jesus might gather together in one all things!!
in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.

In John 5:29 Jesus spoke of only two resurrections. In John 11:24 Martha saith unto him,
I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day!!!, speaking of her brother Lazarus.
How can there be a resurrection before this day if in fact this is the last day.
We can see here that there is only one gathering of the Lord's people.
In 1 Thessalonians 4:14 Paul says that the saints that are asleep(or dead )Jesus will bring back with him from heaven.
The ones still alive here on earth will then be changed into their spiritual bodies.
The dispensation ends of this earth age and the reign of Christ begins. The seventh angel sounding is the end.
End of what? This earth age and the saints are gathered to begin the kingdom of God.
The apostle Paul is plain in stating that we will not be gathered to Christ before the son of perdition is revealed!
2 Thessalonians 2:3. The gathering of the saints no doubt had a set time and John being a Jew was very well aware
of the Jewish trumpets and their distinct sound. It's visually clear to see that the trumpet Paul, John,
and the Lord Jesus spoke of Are the exact same trumpets. The seventh angel actually sounds the end of the sixth day
( 6000th ) years end, and the day of the Lord the seventh day (the 7000th year).
2 Peter 3:8 but beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years,
and a thousand years as one day. HALLELUJAH WHAT A GLORIOUS TIME!

 

[jari]

kevinlb63 thanks for the explanation but have you thought that when seventh trumpet is blown there has been lot of tribulation before that? If you just read book of revelation chapters 4-9

 

[kevinlb63]

JARI! that is the point the 7th trump is the end of the tribulation that is what that means that i wrote about above in in my last post, there is no pre rapture!
there is the first resurrection/christ/ and the last resurrection us at the seventh trump the thump of god!! And I know it will be post trib! and not pre. what do you think!

 

[jari]

JARI! that is the point the 7th trump is the end of the tribulation that is what that means that i wrote about above in in my last post, there is no pre rapture!
there is the first resurrection/christ/ and the last resurrection us at the seventh trump the thump of god!! And I know it will be post trib! and not pre. what do you think!

aah but then you believe post-trib view?

sorry I misread few things pretty badly

 

[Brighthouse]

Hi Everyone!! WOW!! What a question!! Maybe some of you can help me decide on based upon what I am going to say.Like all of you,I sure do not know. It seems to me, that it would happen in this way. Let us go back about 3000 years for a moment. The book of Acts. In my humble opinion revelation will complete this book, as well as itself. You all remember the horrible Beginning of Persecution found in Acts chapter 4. I say beginning because as we all know it is not over yet for many!Then the first Martyr for the faith, Acts 6 Stephen,his sermon acts 7 His stoning Acts chapter 8 In this chapter the believers were also scattered!! As they still are today! Through this scattering many come to be saved,such as our Brother Paul Act 9. Through Jesus in Paul,A second Missionary or as I would say,a new coming of Jesus through Paul begins.Acts 15::36-40, Acts 16.

Then a third Missionary acts 18:23-28 acts 19 And then finally, after much hardship!! Paul arrives in Rome. Acts 28 Finally after all our brother went through, he speaks these words to the people! Acts 28:23-31 We look excited about the next chapter!! But there is no next chapter!! Romans begins!! This is why I believe the next chapter the Book of Acts, will be an action! That action will take place in revelation. Sometime. What appears to me is this, from all of this.What terrible persecution like this has ever come to the United States? NEVER!! Not like this!!

But has come to some other Countries! Since we all know God cannot nor has ever changed,why would he know? What cause have any of us had to ever lose our faith? No gun pointed to our heads as yet. Family not put before us, and told " if you do not deny your Jesus they will be killed before you are,and you will watch this as well!" Some have!! But not yet in the United States! We are all looking for some sign, as to when things really may get close! Dear Lord, most all of us are looking for our Jesus! Most all of us are in a real bind now as it is,money wise,home wise,food wise,or some other wise.

So where do we look for this sign? I think,and I say think! We look for where it all started in the first place Israel.Luke 21:20-28!!! It is here verse 28 But when these things begin to take place straighten up and lift your heads, because your redemption is near. So where does this put me?? I do not know brothers and sister,when you help me with this,I then can give my answer. Thanks all for your enlighting thoughts!

 

[jari]

Brighthouse
i'm under impression that christian who believe in pre-trib rapture don't consider those verses significant at all. i hear they would talk only about the jews . at the tribulation times.....
i don't think thats true because it talks about Lord coming with angels to gather the elect (mat 24). i don't think theres many times such event going to happen on earth and its the rapture, the day of the Lord.

 

[Stickz]

WaitingForJesus: (2) fails to provide for persons to be left on earth in a flesh and blood bodies to repopulate Christ’s Millennial Kingdom;

May I see scripture that backs this claim that there will be "flesh and blood bodies repopulating Christ's Millennial Kingdom" please?

WaitingForJesus: (3) rejects Christ’s unequivocal promise to keep born-again believers from “the hour of testing, which is to come upon the whole earth” (the Tribulation period);

God can protect people from ANYTHING without having to completely remove them from the earth to do so. Examples? Noah, Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, and Moses and the children of Israel just to name a few.

WaitingForJesus: (4) fails to har*mo*nize with Paul’s teaching that born-again Christians are not destined for wrath (the Tribulation period);

Scripture CLEARLY teaches a difference between "Wrath" and "Tribulation". Tribulation is a trying period, wrath is punishment. IF God kept people from tribulation as you are suggesting with your above statement then the persecution of the Christian in Paul's day would definitely fall into that category. Paul was living in days of contradiction to his own statement if that were the way that it should be interpreted. The contradiction lies with the interpreter of the scripture, not with the scripture itself. Paul also taught that Christians would suffer persecution, NOT be protected from it.

WaitingForChrist: (5) rejects Christ’s straightforward teaching on the unan*nounced, unexpected, any-moment nature of the Rapture;

Are you referring to the "thief in the night" statements?

II Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Some try to place a long period of time on the semicolon in this verse, but they do so errantly. "In the which" is denoting that the description that follows will happen on the day of the Lord. People that want to believe in a Pretrib Rapture have twisted and added to the scriptures to make what they want to see fit in with scripture. You can't force one meaning on a word in scripture that has more than one meaning, taking away the other possible definitions to suit your own means. You can't add or presume that a period of time, or an event, WILL take place inside the space of one semicolon; that should be an OBVIOUSLY foolish thing to do, and yet people do it.

So, you ask the question then: How could Jesus' Second Coming come as a surprise to anyone with the Antichrist and the seven years, etc ... giving so much of a sign of the times?

I Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

There is no contradiction in scripture for those that do not believe in a Pretribulation Rapture. When Jesus comes there will be plenty of people caught off guard, but the above verse says that true Christians will not be caught off guard.


I only see the Second Coming in scripture. No pre, mid, or post tribulation rapture. The wrath of God will be poured out in one day, THAT day.

 

[Trisha]

I think we are not appointed to suffer the bowls of wrath being poured out. Why would God pour out his wrath on his children who are covered by the blood of Jesus? That doesn't make any sense to me. I think this is mid way through the tribulation but not sure. If it is then I am mid trib for the rapture. But it doesn't really matter for salvation. The main thing now is that we look forward to Him coming. That we have the hope of glory in us is the important thing.

 

[peaceinhim]

This has always been an intriguing question for me. I believe in the per-tribulation rapture of the church. This is mainly because of 1Thessalonians 4:15-18 among several other Bible references. Though I often get confused because I also get the arguments put forward by the Post-trib(ers)

 

[kevinlb63]

PEACEINHIM! when you read 1 thessalonions 4:15-18 please see what is says!!!!! it says the seventh trump is blowed!! the trump of god!! this is the last!!!
there are now more trumps blowed. there is no fleash left, and we are with christ after that . the end,,, 7 bowls 7seals 7 trumps and god rest while jesus takes over
for a thousand years. no pre rapture, the number 7 is the number of completion!!

 

[jari]

2 Thessalonians 2 should be read in conjunction with 1 Thessalonians 5 because Paul continued what he said in his second letter.


in 1 Thessalonians 5 Paul said these things:


For the Lord himself will come down from heaven

.... caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air


and He continued in 2 Thessalonians 2

the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him


as you can see from scripture Lord's coming is discussed here and our Gathering to Him. which is why I don't know how can anyone say these are not talking about second coming of Jesus and rapture that happens (gathering)

 

[bgsda]

My vote is their is no rapture. Sounds like a game to me. Or a movie. Please search the Scriptures dont be fooled. Its a man made thing made up by a Jesuit Francisco Rubiera to get evryones eye off the pope. Look it up man made. Not trying to bash or look down on anybody but their are alot of traditions that people hold on to because of how much time they put into it and it all comes down to pride. Come to Him like a babe and He,ll show you the truth

 

[JehovahDaughter]

My vote is their is no rapture. Sounds like a game to me. Or a movie. Please search the Scriptures dont be fooled. Its a man made thing made up by a Jesuit Francisco Rubiera to get evryones eye off the pope. Look it up man made. Not trying to bash or look down on anybody but their are alot of traditions that people hold on to because of how much time they put into it and it all comes down to pride. Come to Him like a babe and He,ll show you the truth

The word "rapture" is not in the bible; however Christians being caught up with Christ IS in the bible, as well as the resurrection of those who died in Christ. If you're talking about the word "rapture" not being in the bible, like I have said that is true. However if your meaning is that the true followers of Christ will not be caught up to meet Christ on His return, then I disagree.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

[bgsda]

No im talking about the whole thing being made up by Francisco Rubiera the Jesuit if you type it in on google youll find out. The verse your talking about is the FINAL trumpet. Christ will not come back again. FINAL trumpet. Like it says in Peter when the earth and heavens will pass away.

 

[JehovahDaughter]

No im talking about the whole thing being made up by Francisco Rubiera the Jesuit if you type it in on google youll find out. The verse your talking about is the FINAL trumpet. Christ will not come back again. FINAL trumpet. Like it says in Peter when the earth and heavens will pass away.

Are you trying to tell me that this so called Jesuit priest put this in the bible? "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven" not anyone else, it says exactly that in the bible, THE LORD HIMSELF, so that no one confuses themself to say, no it's not the Lord it's something else)

"and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air"(To meet the Lord. You said Jesus is not coming back? What does this mean then? What do you think it is? The ony reason I can think of why this very clearly stated verse would be misinterpreted is if someone decided to interprete it allegorically, which it clearly is not allegorical) I guess this guy just changed the word of God then? There are a lot of Christian conspiratory theorist(some of which are right) but a lot of the others, quite a lot are WRONG. Because they try to decipher the word of God using current or past affairs(which is not always wrong, but TRUE UNDERSTANDING comes from the Holy Spirit). For example this whole issue about sunday worship being forced on Christians by Constantine, is just wrong. The disciples of Jesus started to gather together in the times way before constantine, I suppose to differentiate themselves from the Jews of that time. Constantine came along, not to make and enforce this rule, but to legalize what was already going. Acts 20:7 "And upon the first day of the week(what is the first day of the week? Is it not sunday?) when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them..." But I digress. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is there for any literate person to read, if you do not believe the word of God as it is written, then that is your business. If you want to twist and turn it into something that it is not, that is also your business. Revelation 22:18-19 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Here is other scripture supporting the coming back of Christ. If Christ was not coming back for His people, His disciples would have not preached this over and over again. This is not a question in my mind at all. This forum is not even for that. This forum is for when it will happen. Which I personally don't know(neither does anyone but God) and I don't know if it is pre-tribulation, post-tribulation, mid-tribulation...All I know is that I want to be ready and not found wanting when He returns.

"For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body...." Philippians 3:20-21 (Why do you wait for the bus? For it's arrival right? Why are we waiting so eagerly for the Saviour? For His arrival)

Mathew 24:3 "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Jesus is not coming back? If He was not coming back, He would have said then and there to His disciples, "I shall not be coming back, the world will end without me coming back". But He didn't say that. He explained to them that there will be tribulations, apostasy of the church and many other things and then in Chapter 36 said "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." If you like, you can read the whole of Mathew 24.

1 John 3:1-3 "Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
"Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure."

Romans 8:19-25 "For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance."

Titus 2:11-14 "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people..."

There are more scriptures but I will stop here. The scriptures do not lie, becaus it is the word of God and calling the scripture a lie is akin to calling God a liar. God forbid that!. If you do not want
to believe me, that is fine(afterall, I could just be making up these scriptures). Pick up you bible, ask the Holy Spirit for guidance, close that wikipedia page and read your bible.

 

[bgsda]

Ok. Yeah i believe that Hes coming but not in a rapture. Rev.1:7 every eye will see Him even the dead ones. Just like it says in 1 thess. 4:16. Also in Matt.24:27 says Hes coming as lightning flashes. I dont know about you but i believe unless your blind everyone can see lightning flashing in the sky. Im not saying that He is not coming back. He is. But not in secret. That is false and man made. I see that you didnt look uo the person who made thr rapture up. See its fake the devil is very subtle. He wants people to believe they can keep living the way they want to so when the Lord comes they supposedly have a second chance. That is not so. REV.22:11. Their is no oh heres the rapture now i can get my life right i have 7 years. The devil is subtle. Isaiah 11:4/ 2thess.2:8 at His return Hrs going to slay the wicked. Please dont be deceived . Think about it the great tribulation that the bible talks about in Dan.12:1 and of Matt.24:21 refers to the awful persecution of Gods people during the Dark Ages. Millions were slain for their faith at that time. Estimated about 100,000,000. Look it up.

 

[jari]

bgsda sorry but i have to say this is rapture thread. see mat 24:31 . that's something you need to explain if you dont believe in rapture ......

 

[JehovahDaughter]

Ok. Yeah i believe that Hes coming but not in a rapture. Rev.1:7 every eye will see Him even the dead ones. Just like it says in 1 thess. 4:16. Also in Matt.24:27 says Hes coming as lightning flashes. I dont know about you but i believe unless your blind everyone can see lightning flashing in the sky. Im not saying that He is not coming back. He is. But not in secret. That is false and man made. I see that you didnt look uo the person who made thr rapture up. See its fake the devil is very subtle. He wants people to believe they can keep living the way they want to so when the Lord comes they supposedly have a second chance. That is not so. REV.22:11. Their is no oh heres the rapture now i can get my life right i have 7 years. The devil is subtle. Isaiah 11:4/ 2thess.2:8 at His return Hrs going to slay the wicked. Please dont be deceived . Think about it the great tribulation that the bible talks about in Dan.12:1 and of Matt.24:21 refers to the awful persecution of Gods people during the Dark Ages. Millions were slain for their faith at that time. Estimated about 100,000,000. Look it up.

Of course, that is a completely different case. I do not believe in a secret rapture at all(some people do), but what the scriptures say about the return of Christ does not seem like a secret affair to me(shout from heaven, voice of archangel, trump of God...these do not sound very quiet and secretive) . Besides how secret would it be if people just start dissapearing and appearing in the clouds with Jesus and dead start arising from the dead? Not secretive at all.

 

[bgsda]

Jari let me ask you in the days of Noah and Lot in Luke 17:26-37 as stated by Luke in verse 27,29 why is it that its states that God destroyed them all. He told how God spared Noah and Lot and destroyed the wicked. He says specifically that the flood and fire "destroyed them all". Plainly, in each case, a few were taken to safety and the rest were destroyed. Then He added,"Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed;" vs30.To illustrate, Jesus continued, " two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken , and the other left". Vs36. Theres nothing secret about that. Jari and those that still believe on the rapture please dont be deceived. Jesus stated about those that in vain worship Him keeping the traditions of man. Mark 7:6-9. Dont do it i plead with you. Those that fall on the Rock and are broken, from traditions, will find truth and be free. There is alot of man madetraditions that i myself uvsed to hold on to but not anymore with diligent study of His Word. Jesus said IN VAIN THEY WORSHIP ME thats should be scary . Please we have to " study to show ourselves approved,rightly diving the Scriptures" not running to a pastor or any human at that. GOD BLESS?