why do people reject jesus

Brighthouse · Jan 15, 2011

WOW!! I can say that backwards WOW!! LOL ok, I have to ask!! LOl Now please!! correct me if what I am saying is wrong to you Joe,ah Jesus in Not God to you,Satan gets saved in the End to you,hell?? I guess no place ever was made,since there are no bad people. Of all the scripture you talked about I for one am VERY SURPRISED!!! You never used this one!! matt 7:6 although I am sure you will now. LOL humor me please!! first what does the word forever mean to you? When you decide on this,then please answer me what this means? rev 20:10 and verse 15 and IF anyone,JOE if anyone would never be in there unless someone is going. and verse 15 forever is the same as verse10! if anyone in the greek is not a question,it is a statment, in any version you look at.thanks you for your thoughts on this.

rojoloco · Jan 16, 2011

Joe in Arkansas said:
Dear Rojoloco and Melody,
Just to set the record straight, I am merely a follower of Jesus Christ. I attend NO organization called a "church" of any kind. I am not anything, I am nothing. Except for what Christ has done for me, I would be in a Harlot church somewhere receiving of her plagues and arguing like you that Christ is going to torture most of mankind in fire for all eternity. I thank the Lord nearly everyday that He had mercy upon me and opened my eyes to His Truth. I do not believe in ANY mainstream doctrine of the churches. I believe that the Trinity doctrine is just as false as the Hell doctrine. I don't believe in the doctrines of Free Will, Tithing, life before the resurrection, punishment before judgment, the sinner's prayer, the Antichrist doctrine, the rapture doctrine, the endtime prophecies as the church teaches them or probably anything else that comes out of the Harlot church. What I do believe in is Jesus Christ and His Truth as laid out for us in the scriptures. My wife's spiritual blindness was healed on the same day as mine back in October 2005. She understands scripture as I do. Through the internet, I have found many such people like my wife and myself who have come out of the Harlot church system and have come to the same understanding of scripture. But we are few, very few indeed. From the many called, Christ's chooses His church. We cannot volunteer for it or choose it ourselves. He keep the Truth hidden from the "many" so that He can reveal it to whom He will.

I see a combination of Unitarianism, Trinitarianism, Roman Catholicism, Calvinism, Arminianism, pagan cults, and gnostic teachings within your threads and this post is the culmination of it all.

Joe in Arkansas said:
The "many" will be judged in wrath, but nevertheless, they will still be saved through that judgment (fire).

1Cor 3:15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

I thought I would comment on this verse in particular. You do realize that this verse does not refer to many at all. It actually refers to a select few. It is referring to certain teachers and church leaders who are building the church. Paul tells us there is no other foundation other than Jesus Christ. However, he does tell us that one can build on that foundation in one of 2 ways. Either his work will withstand the day of judgment and he will be rewarded greatly or his work will be burned up. He will still see the kingdom of Heaven though his reward will be diminished...which is hard to fathom since heaven is the greatest reward I can think of anyway. As D.A. Carson puts it, "The picture is of someone running out of a building engulfed in a great fire. That person escapes. But how much of the building on which he has been working survives the flames?" It is referring to Christian leaders who are building with shoddy materials and giving false teaching or not giving it their all. As I said, it certainly does not refer to "the many" that you mention.

Also, as D.A. Carson puts it, "Two things must be said to clarify this picture Paul has painted and to drive his points home into our lives. First, those who "suffer loss" but who escape "through the flames" are not the "carnal" or "worldly" Christians of 3:1-4, but are Christian leaders who build his church with materials that will not withstand the final conflagration. The worldly Christians of 3:1-4 constitute all or part of the Corinthian church, and the church is represented, in the first analogy, by the field, and in the second, by the building. What we might call the "church builders," people like Paul, Apollos, and other evangelists, preachers, and teachers, are either the workers in the field or the builders of the building. It is they whose work is tested by the fire."

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Joe in Arkansas said:
Without the righteous judgment of God, we would all remain sinners. But by the grace of God, we are given all things necessary for us to be fully made in God's image and that includes judgment - not man's judgment which does not produce righteousness but God's judgment which does produce righteousness in us through Jesus Christ. In due time, Christ will make all mankind righteousness and all will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

The judgment of God does not produce righteousness within the unbeliever who is facing the judgment. This judgment he will receive is condemnation. In fact, John 3:17 says he has already been condemned. The judgment of God does not produce righteousness. It declares God's righteousness. How would God be seen as holy if not for the existence of sin? How would we understand we are incapable of being holy if not for the existence of the Law? Judgment shows God's glory through His wrath (Romans 9:22).

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Joe in Arkansas said:
The same "all things" that were created by Christ will be the same "all things" that will be reconciled to Christ. Who can that possibly leave out? No one. Where is your faith to believe this scripture?

I will answer your question with another question (with Scripture of course):

Matthew 25:46:
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Where is your faith to believe this Scripture?

jiggyfly · Jan 16, 2011

rojoloco said:
Still not sure how you are arriving at this conclusion. Universal Reconciliation is the EXACT SAME THING as Universalism. It was you who decided to go off on a tangent about the Unitarian Universalists. I never mentioned them. I stand by my original comment. Nothing has changed there and no further research was needed because it is unnecessary.

It is all right there in the print of your posts.:wink:

rojoloco · Jan 16, 2011

jiggyfly said:
It is all right there in the print of your posts.:wink:

Actually, it was only there in the last post. I've never heard any Unitarian say they trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior while being God. I could have sworn I sense Joe speaking of Jesus in this way. It wasn't until my last post that I saw some Unitarian in him when he said (surprisingly) that he rejected the Trinity.

But please, if you saw it in my posts, feel free to point it out because I know you won't be able to. It simply wasn't there...hence your very vague replies.

Joe in Arkansas · Jan 16, 2011

rojoloco said:
I see a combination of Unitarianism, Trinitarianism, Roman Catholicism, Calvinism, Arminianism, pagan cults, and gnostic teachings within your threads and this post is the culmination of it all.

I thought I would comment on this verse in particular. You do realize that this verse does not refer to many at all. It actually refers to a select few. It is referring to certain teachers and church leaders who are building the church. Paul tells us there is no other foundation other than Jesus Christ. However, he does tell us that one can build on that foundation in one of 2 ways. Either his work will withstand the day of judgment and he will be rewarded greatly or his work will be burned up. He will still see the kingdom of Heaven though his reward will be diminished...which is hard to fathom since heaven is the greatest reward I can think of anyway. As D.A. Carson puts it, "The picture is of someone running out of a building engulfed in a great fire. That person escapes. But how much of the building on which he has been working survives the flames?" It is referring to Christian leaders who are building with shoddy materials and giving false teaching or not giving it their all. As I said, it certainly does not refer to "the many" that you mention.

Also, as D.A. Carson puts it, "Two things must be said to clarify this picture Paul has painted and to drive his points home into our lives. First, those who "suffer loss" but who escape "through the flames" are not the "carnal" or "worldly" Christians of 3:1-4, but are Christian leaders who build his church with materials that will not withstand the final conflagration. The worldly Christians of 3:1-4 constitute all or part of the Corinthian church, and the church is represented, in the first analogy, by the field, and in the second, by the building. What we might call the "church builders," people like Paul, Apollos, and other evangelists, preachers, and teachers, are either the workers in the field or the builders of the building. It is they whose work is tested by the fire."



The judgment of God does not produce righteousness within the unbeliever who is facing the judgment. This judgment he will receive is condemnation. In fact, John 3:17 says he has already been condemned. The judgment of God does not produce righteousness. It declares God's righteousness. How would God be seen as holy if not for the existence of sin? How would we understand we are incapable of being holy if not for the existence of the Law? Judgment shows God's glory through His wrath (Romans 9:22).

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

I will answer your question with another question (with Scripture of course):

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]Matthew 25:46:
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Where is your faith to believe this Scripture?

Dear Rojoloco,
Yours and D.A. Carson explanation of the "foundation" and being "saved by fire" is not understandable to a reasonable thinking person. The "foundation" that has been laid by Christ is as you quoted "Paul tells us there is no other foundation other than Jesus Christ". Christ laid the foundation for us, all of mankind. That is the only foundation that there is because Christ paid the sin debt of the world at the cross. He purchased us. All mankind builds upon that foundation. The "leaders" are not the only one's who build upon it. The verse clearly denies it.

Also, Matthew 25:46 is properly translated as:

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

All scripture applies to the "ages". There is no word that means "everlasting" in scripture. The Elect receive life in the Kingdom of God during the ages and the lost do not. But at the end of the final age, all mankind will be in the Kingdom of God and all mankind will be made immortal. Death will be swallowed up in victory. The ages end when Christ delivers up the Kingdom to the Father. At that point, God will be "all in all". Everybody will be reconciled to God. Christ will have accomplished his mission given to Him by the Father to save the world.
He is not the miserable failure that you make Him out to be. He will prove it to you "in due time".

Joe in Arkansas

jiggyfly · Jan 16, 2011

Originally Posted by rojoloco

You may not like the title or the association with a group of people but your beliefs fall in line with Universalists. Universalists claim that God will save everybody and that everybody will go to Heaven. They claim that God's love is so strong that as long as they try, God will grant them Heaven. This is what you are espousing and is is completely wrong.

Originally Posted by rojoloco
If there is no eternal Hell and suffering, it means everybody will eventually be in Heaven. This means all paths lead to God regardless what they do. This is the very core of the Universalist belief.

Originally Posted by rojoloco
Actually, all I said was that he is a Universalist. There is Unitarian Universalism and Trinitarian Universalism. He is clearly of the latter group.

Well here they are.

jiggyfly · Jan 16, 2011

Originally Posted by rojoloco
Unfortunately, by the time every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, it will be too late. Judgment will be upon the world and the window of opportunity for salvation will have been shut.

Let me ask again, can you share some scripture that supports this idea?

MelodyC · Jan 16, 2011

Joe in Arkansas said:
Dear Melody,
Yes, it is my choice on what I believe, but Christ is the cause behind my choices. Christ works in me to "will and do of His good pleasure". It is no different for anyone. No one can choose Christ unless He wills us to do so. In the end, Christ will cause all men to come to Him and drink of the waters of Life.

 Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

To understand and believe these scriptures is the definition of Godly humility. There is no self righteousness in these verses. We are all at God's mercy for our salvation. Since He has 100% control over His creation, it is easy to see why God is able to draw all men to Him and cause all mankind to find salvation in Jesus Christ. The Father sent Christ to be the Savior of the world, who or what is going to stop Him from succeeding?

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Melody, I have confidence by God's Word that someday you too will believe that God is able to do all that He said He will do.

1 Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

And He says that He will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the Truth. We merely need to have patience for Christ to accomplish all that He said He would do.

Sincerely,
Joe in Arkansas

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JN 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Seems like Christ is not meant to save everyone after all.

Your interpretation of scripture has holes in it.

rojoloco · Jan 16, 2011

jiggyfly said:
Well here they are.

All you did was prove MY point. You have been accusing me of calling him a Unitarian Universalist all this time. I challenged you to show me where I said this. All you did was post 2 verses where I called him a Universalist (not a Unitarian) and then 1 verse where I specifically called him a Trinitarian Universalist. Universalist is not synonymous with Unitarian. Maybe YOU should go and do some reading up as you clearly do not see the difference.

I do stand corrected on one point though. He is now claiming to be neither a Unitarian nor a Trinitarian. Not quite sure how you can elude either camp but he is making the claim. I thought he was Trinitarian the whole time but I guess not.

rojoloco · Jan 16, 2011

jiggyfly said:
Let me ask again, can you share some scripture that supports this idea?

Sure thing.

Hebrews 9:27 said:
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

Romans 14:10-12 said:
But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written,
"AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

It is upon death that we will see the judgment seat. We all have to give an account of ourselves to God at some point or another. No one can escape this. However, Christians will reap rewards when settling accounts with God while non-Christians will reap judgment. Each will reap what he has sown but we will all stand before the Bema Seat. There will come a time when everybody will be a believer but, at that time, it will be too late because judgment will already be upon us.

Joe in Arkansas · Jan 16, 2011

MelodyC said:
 

Seems like Christ is not meant to save everyone after all.

Your interpretation of scripture has holes in it.

Melody,
Christ is only speaking of those that have been chosen to be in His church. The church has a special salvation because they will enter the Kingdom of Heaven first and will rule and reign with Christ over those yet to enter. Remember, the church is only the first fruits of the harvest - not the full harvest as you have been taught.

Sincerely,
Joe in Arkansas

Joe in Arkansas · Jan 16, 2011

rojoloco said:
All you did was prove MY point. You have been accusing me of calling him a Unitarian Universalist all this time. I challenged you to show me where I said this. All you did was post 2 verses where I called him a Universalist (not a Unitarian) and then 1 verse where I specifically called him a Trinitarian Universalist. Universalist is not synonymous with Unitarian. Maybe YOU should go and do some reading up as you clearly do not see the difference.

I do stand corrected on one point though. He is now claiming to be neither a Unitarian nor a Trinitarian. Not quite sure how you can elude either camp but he is making the claim. I thought he was Trinitarian the whole time but I guess not.

Dear Rojoloco,
I do not want to start another subject on this thread but just so that you will know, here is my understanding of God the Father and Christ.

God the Father is the creator of all things. All things come out from Him. He is the God and Father of all - including Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is our God and Savior because the Father made Him as such. The Father reveals Himself to us only through Jesus Christ. But Christ can do nothing apart from the Father's will. Just as us, Christ does not have a "free will" either. God the Father is in absolute control of all things and by Him all things consist. As far as the Holy Spirit, it is the Father's Spirit that He gave to Christ who in turn gives to us. It is not a separate entity, it is of the Father. By His Spirit it can be said that He and Christ are "one" just as Christ and His church are "one". But someday, all men will be in Christ and Christ will turn over the Kingdom to the Father. That is why scripture says God the Father will be "all in all". We will all be "one" with the Father because we will all be controlled by His Spirit. In effect, we will all be fully made into the image of God - after all, that is what God said He was doing from the beginning (Gen 1:23).

I don't know what "denominational" belief that understanding matches up with - I'm sure you will find a box to put it in. However, I did not learn it from any denomination, I learned it from scripture.
Sincerely,
Joe in Arkansas

hischildaswell · Jan 16, 2011

Dear Joe look at the definition "will have" in the Greek it should shed some light on your misunderstanding of the text

hischildaswell · Jan 16, 2011

He is the propitiation, the reconciliation, for a relationship with the God through Jesus Christ, this opens the door to an acceptable obedient life

jiggyfly · Jan 17, 2011

rojoloco said:
All you did was prove MY point. You have been accusing me of calling him a Unitarian Universalist all this time. I challenged you to show me where I said this. All you did was post 2 verses where I called him a Universalist (not a Unitarian) and then 1 verse where I specifically called him a Trinitarian Universalist. Universalist is not synonymous with Unitarian. Maybe YOU should go and do some reading up as you clearly do not see the difference.

I do stand corrected on one point though. He is now claiming to be neither a Unitarian nor a Trinitarian. Not quite sure how you can elude either camp but he is making the claim. I thought he was Trinitarian the whole time but I guess not.

Oh see more than you think I do. I also know where the term Trinitarian Universalist comes from and who uses that term online.

jiggyfly · Jan 17, 2011

rojoloco said:
Sure thing.

Originally Posted by Hebrews 9:27
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

Click to expand...

Originally Posted by Romans 14:10-12
But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written,
"AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

Click to expand...

It is upon death that we will see the judgment seat. We all have to give an account of ourselves to God at some point or another. No one can escape this. However, Christians will reap rewards when settling accounts with God while non-Christians will reap judgment. Each will reap what he has sown but we will all stand before the Bema Seat. There will come a time when everybody will be a believer but, at that time, it will be too late because judgment will already be upon us.

Where does it say that upon death we see the Judgment seat. I see in the verse you quoted that we will see this judgment after death, meaning that we wont see it before we die. Where does it say that it is too late, I am failing to see that also.

Reap judgment? Sounds to me like you are confusing judgment with punishment.

Joe in Arkansas · Jan 17, 2011

hischildaswell said:
Dear Joe look at the definition "will have" in the Greek it should shed some light on your misunderstanding of the text

Dear hischildaswell,
I assume you are speaking of the "will have" in this verse:

1 Tim 2 <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> :4-6Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

It makes no difference if it is His "will" or His "desire". God accomplishes all that He desires:

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

The verses are very clear. The problem of why no one wants to accept them as truth is because they have been deceived into believing that the history & teachings of the churches override scripture. Do you not know that the churches have become harlots which is no different than what became of the Jewish religion? If you follow them instead of Christ, this verse applies:

Matt 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

If the Lord has given you any desire to seek the Truth, then I encourage you to go back and read my posts on this thread. God will have all His desires and His desire & will is to save all mankind - not just a tiny fraction. However, the "many called" refuse to believe it.

Sincerely,
Joe in Arkansas

rojoloco · Jan 17, 2011

jiggyfly said:
Oh see more than you think I do. I also know where the term Trinitarian Universalist comes from and who uses that term online.

Please enlighten me then. Again, I did not use the term. Originally, all I said was Universalist. You cannot truthfully deny this. You were the one to imply Unitarianism. I corrected your understanding of what I was saying yet somehow, you are convinced I was calling him a Unitarian. Your logic defies reasoning.

rojoloco · Jan 17, 2011

jiggyfly said:
Where does it say that upon death we see the Judgment seat. I see in the verse you quoted that we will see this judgment after death, meaning that we wont see it before we die. Where does it say that it is too late, I am failing to see that also.

Reap judgment? Sounds to me like you are confusing judgment with punishment.

So you admit that the judgment will happen AFTER death. The only way you can reconcile your previous statements with this is to say you believe one can still be saved after death. However, this teaching is not Scriptural and actually has more to do with Roman Catholicism.

jiggyfly · Jan 17, 2011

jiggyfly said:
Oh see more than you think I do. I also know where the term Trinitarian Universalist comes from and who uses that term online.

The original point I made was that you were confusing the beliefs of the unitarian beliefs with the beliefs of UR and to be honest with you I really don't see any need to continue it is obviously you have a hard time being corrected nor does it seem you will study UR enough to know the difference.

However there is enough posted for others to read and discern.

Welcome!

why do people reject jesus

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