why do people reject jesus

INRI · Jan 6, 2011

The rejection of a savior is founded in lacking a need for salvation. A savior is meaningless if you're already safe and sound.

Joe in Arkansas · Jan 6, 2011

Dear Brighthouse,

You asked:
If there is no hell, then why did Jesus come, suffer and die?

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Jesus came to give us "life" because the penalty of sin is death. The penalty of sin is NOT being tortured alive for all eternity in a fabled place called hell.

He accomplished this mission to give all men "life" on the cross and He was given the keys to death and hell. The word translated "hell" is G86 "hades" which means "realm of the dead" or "the grave". It is not a place of fire and brimstone that tortures people. Because He paid the price of our sin on the cross, He now will resurrect from "hell" or "the grave" all people who have ever lived and died.

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> 1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

But if you notice back in John 10:10, Christ also came to"give us life more "abundantly". That is what Christ is doing now. The sin debt has been paid and Christ is now working on giving mankind a life free from ever sinning again by placing His Spirit within each person. This is the process that God is taking us through now. It is a long and painful process to be born into the image of God. That is why we are told that we must have "patience" for the plan of God to unfold. The sin debt had to be taken care of first and our sinning problem will now be taken care of second.

You asked:
There cannot be any sin either according to you.Is that correct?

No. All men are sinners and need a Savior. All mankind will eventually come to Christ and have their sin problem destroyed by judgment. A corn of wheat (carnal nature, Old man) must fall to the ground and die (be destroyed). But from that destruction (death), we will be raised a new creature in Christ. The Word of God and judgment is what destroys our "old man" or "corn of wheat".

John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

You asked:
Because if everyone is going to heaven, then Jesus must of made a mistake?

No, it is ONLY because of Jesus that we will all be saved. He is the one who does the saving. We do not save ourselves.

You asked:
In matt 4 He spoke with the devil,if there is no hell,then there cannot be a devil either can there?

Why would you say that? Satan is a real spiritual being created by God to be a tempter and destroyer. When God's use of Him is complete, He will be saved as well.

Col 1:16-20 <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Acts 3:20-21 <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

I believe these scriptures when they say "all things" will be reconciled to God. Satan and the fallen angels are part of "all things".

You asked:
oh and matt 24 must have a lot of flaws in it as well! No judgment??

All men must be judged, no one escapes judgment. Not even the church.

1Pet 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

You asked:
Matt 24:31-46 wow 15 verses that should have not been in there you think? verse 41 Depart from me what?? accursed ones. into where Joe?? let see the Words says into eternal fire which has been prepared for the who Joe?? devil and his what JOE?? angels humm must have been a large error hu?

No error. All men must be "judged" and "destroyed". The church in this physical life now and all the rest in the final age. I call this last age the Lake of Fire age. It is a symbol for judgment and is not a literal fire pit. That judgment in the Lake of Fire will refine and make righteous all the rest of mankind.

Luke 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

This "fire" in Luke is for the church now.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
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From judgment comes righteousness. Judgment in scripture is symbolized by fire.

1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Do you think it is right, good, just and loving to torture someone in fire for any sin that a person committed? Even this carnal world we live in condemns that type of evil. The doctrine of hell makes God out to be a living nightmare for 99% of mankind. Any god that would do such evil is not the God I serve and could never be considered a god of LOVE. The doctrine of hell came from the "god of this world" and not from our loving Savior Jesus Christ. Christ loves all mankind and died to save us all - that is the truth of scripture.

Joe in Arkansas

Brighthouse · Jan 6, 2011

Ok Joe, I do see where you are going with your truth,then just one more question. Does Judas not go to a place of torment then? according to the Word, we first know he was a thief,like you spoke of in john 10:10,( found in john 13:2,and john 13:29,next satan himself entetered him this is found in Luke 22:3,and finally God's Word says this about Judas. Matt 26:24 WOE to the man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for THAT MAN if he had NEVER been born. If Judas by your way of thinking does not go to a place called hell,still not addressed by you in 2 Peter 2:4-5 then where does he go,and where does the devil himself go then? Just wondered what you think on this.

Brighthouse · Jan 6, 2011

you said Satan will be saved as well?? Ah hate to be the bearer of bad tiding to you Joe, but Satan was created lucifer, and Lucifer had free will and decided to have the 5 i wills as i call them, as you know Liucifer was called Star of the Morning,as well, and was the very guardian to the throne of God. Isaiah 14:12-17 you better check this out,perhaps you missed it.

Brighthouse · Jan 6, 2011

one more note,as I always want to show the Word please look at Ezekiel 28:14-19 verse 19 clearly says Satan will not be saved, he will be no MORE! he was the Guardian to the throne of god,and he will be no more, in the end,he will not be saved,for he cannot be. nor will Judas.

Jaareshiah · Jan 6, 2011

MelodyC said:
In answer to your question I highlighted - Absolutely not. There will be many who will reject Christ directly.

What I was saying that in Romans it says God makes sure no one will come to judgement before Him in ignorance. They will have NO Excuse before Him.

It also says in the following verse the gospel is to be preached to all nations so that it will be a testimony to them. Not all that hear the will be saved. Below the Bible even states for many their love will grow cold.

Now Joe A., please answer me this. Do you believe that anyone will actually go to Eternal Torment along with Satan and the fallen Angels.

If you do not believe anyone is going to Eternal Punishment. Please explain briefly why?

The teaching of a "hellfire" dates long before Jesus stepped on the earth. In the book The History of Hell, by Alice K. Turner (1993), noted this about the doctrine or teaching of a "hell": "The first accounts of the Land of the Dead that we know about were written nearly four thousand years ago on baked clay tablets from the Tigris-Euphrates Valley north of the Persian Gulf in Iraq. Sumer is the earliest name we have for the region....The Sumerians were conquered by the Semitic Akkadians, and the area began to be known as Babylonia, after the principal city, Babylon. The Sumerians, Akkadians, Babylonians, and neighboring Assyrians are frequently grouped as Mesopotamians, and they shared many of the same beliefs and myths, though their gods sometimes went by different names." Thus, from ancient Babylon and the surrounding area came forth the belief of a "hellfire."

This belief continued down through the centuries to the classical Greek period, before Alexander the Great conquered Medo-Persia in 331 B.C.E. In the book Histoire des enfers (The History of Hell, 2005), by Georges Minois, page 50, it said: "Of all classical Greek philosophers, the one who has had the greatest influence on traditional views of Hell is Plato (428 ?-347 B.C.E.)”

The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1988), Volume 25, page 890, states: “From the middle of the 2nd century AD Christians who had some training in Greek philosophy began to feel the need to express their faith in its terms . . . The philosophy that suited them best was Platonism [the teachings of Plato].” Thus, the Babylonian teaching of "hell" that Plato taught was now absorbed into so-called "Christianity".

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994 edition, page 270, states: “The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God.” Hence, orthodox "Christianity" teaches "hell" as a doctrine that is supposedly supported by the Bible. But does it ?

Those who are reasonable, willing to examine the Bible without bias, will find that the churches view of "hell" is not found in the Bible. At Jeremiah 7, God condemns the nation of Israel for having "built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart."(Jer 7:31, King James Bible) He says that "the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the Lord: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it"(Jer 7:30, King James Bible) Thus, God calls the burning of the Israelites "sons and their daughters in the fire", "evil in my sight....abominations." Could a righteous God condemn the Israelites for these wicked actions, while at the same time burn people in a "hellfire" ?

At Jeremiah 19, God again scathingly criticises the Israelites, saying that "they have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind."(Jer 19:5, King James Bible)

Furthermore, at Jeremiah 32, God says concerning this practice: "Because of all the evil of the children of Israel and of the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke me to anger, they, their kings, their princes, their priests, and their prophets, and the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.....And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."(Jer 32:32, 35, King James Bible)

How could God condemn the Israelite nation for "burn(ing) their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal", even saying that "I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind" and yet burn people in a hellfire ? Would this not be hypocritical of God to condemn the Israelites for ' burning their sons with fire' while at the same time burning people, even wicked people, in a hellfire ? Too, could God be a "God of love" while also burning people for all eternity ?(1 John 4:8) The two are incompatible, diametrically opposed.

Hence, the teaching of a "hellfire" began some four thousand years ago on the plains of Mesopotamia, at Babylon. In the book of Revelation, a mystic city, called Babylon the Great, is seen in vision by the apostle John. The ancient city of Babylon is the prototype of Babylon the Great. Ancient Babylon was known for its paganistic or false religion, and from which false religious teachings and doctrines originated, such as hellfire, immortality of the soul, a trinity of gods.

At Revelation 18, after Babylon the Great's fall, "another voice out of heaven say(s): “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind."(Rev 18:4, 5) Thus, Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion, is to be called to justice by God for "her sins have massed together clear up to heaven," including the teaching of a pagan hellfire.

Joe in Arkansas · Jan 6, 2011

Brighthouse said:
Ok Joe, I do see where you are going with your truth,then just one more question. Does Judas not go to a place of torment then? according to the Word, we first know he was a thief,like you spoke of in john 10:10,( found in john 13:2,and john 13:29,next satan himself entetered him this is found in Luke 22:3,and finally God's Word says this about Judas. Matt 26:24 WOE to the man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for THAT MAN if he had NEVER been born. If Judas by your way of thinking does not go to a place called hell,still not addressed by you in 2 Peter 2:4-5 then where does he go,and where does the devil himself go then? Just wondered what you think on this.

Dear Brighthouse,
Judas is currently dead. He is in the grave awaiting his resurrection to judgment with the rest of mankind who have died. His judgment will be very mentally tormenting because he knows that he played a part in the death of Christ. He will not be physically tortured in hell as you believe. He will be judged on the New Earth outside the gates of the New Jerusalem. Of course, these are also symbols just as the Lake of Fire is a symbol. Nevertheless, Judas will come through his judgment "in due time" and "in his own order" just as all mankind will. However, his judgment will be much harsher than most because his sin was greater. But Christ has already forgiven Him with His dying words on the cross. But Judas must still be judged so that He becomes a new creature in Christ. Like I said, His judgment will be more tormenting than most but He will not be lost. Christ is not willing for any of His sheep to be lost. You merely do not understand the love Christ has for mankind. He has and will do everything necessary to save each and every person. We just need to trust in Him to accomplish all that He says He will do.

Matt 18:11-14 <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Why do you believe that Christ will not or cannot save all his sheep? I tell you the truth, the 99 sheep that don't believe they are lost will find themselves lacking before the throne of Christ. All of mankind is lost and have gone astray. Until Christ comes to us personally and heals our blindness, we will remain lost. The man of sin within each of us will remain seated were he aught not to sit until the glorious appearing of Christ destroys Him. The "many" will have to go through the Lake of Fire age to find salvation. It will be very tormenting for them because they will believe that they are eternally lost. Judas will be one of these "many".

2Pet 2:4-5 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

The "angels" in verse 4 are dead and will be resurrected to judgment at some point. Hell is the grave or the realm of the dead and not your fabled place of fire and brimstone. It is a place of darkness because they are dead. When one is dead, they "know not anything". That includes not only the physically dead but also the spiritually dead.

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Ecc 9:5-6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither, have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Verse 5 talks about Noah, the eighth person. Eight in scripture represents the "New Man" which is Christ in us. Only those who are born again are saved into the Kingdom of Heaven. The story of Noah is a type and shadow of salvation. Noah was a type of the New Man. Our Old Man must die and the New Man must be born. John the Baptist was a type of our Old Man who must die. John said this considering Christ:

John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

Our Old man is judged to death but from that death our New Man will be born. It is only the New Man that will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Our carnal sinning nature will be replaced by the righteousness of Christ. Christ is able and willing to do this for everyone that has ever lived. Most lack the faith to believe Him when He says:

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

The Father has given "all things" to Christ. Who does that leave out? How can scripture say it any clearer?

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

All those same "things" that were given to Christ by the Father will come to Him. What does Christ say that He will do when they come to Him? He says that He will in no wise cast them out. He will accept them into the Kingdom of Heaven. This is "typed" for us when Christ appeared at the Feast of Tabernacles. The Feast of Tabernacles is a shadow of the great harvest of mankind at the last day.

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> John 7:37-38 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Once this happen, all will be in the Kingdom of Heaven and the plan of God during the ages will be complete.

If what you believe is true, why can't you produce scripture that says something like this: "Not all will be saved", "Christ's love and mercy only lasts until someone physical dies" or maybe "not everyone is worth saving, some are just too evil". If there were any such scriptures, I'm sure I would have been presented them by now.

How else can Christ say that He will save all of mankind than the way He says it in this verse?

1 Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

By what you believe, you make this scripture a lie. Why won't you believe Him?
Do you think that Christ is limited in some way to accomplish His will? Do you think it is merely a weak wish or desire of Christ's to save the world? Do you not know that God will have all that He desires?

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

The doctrine of hell makes God out to be no better than corruptible man and a liar to boot. Where is your faith to believe these plain statements of scripture?

Christ said concerning the time of His return:

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

The implied answer is "not much".

Joe in Arkansas

Joe in Arkansas · Jan 6, 2011

Brighthouse said:
you said Satan will be saved as well?? Ah hate to be the bearer of bad tiding to you Joe, but Satan was created lucifer, and Lucifer had free will and decided to have the 5 i wills as i call them, as you know Liucifer was called Star of the Morning,as well, and was the very guardian to the throne of God. Isaiah 14:12-17 you better check this out,perhaps you missed it.

Dear Brighthouse,
Satan was created Satan. "Lucifer" is not in scripture even though it maybe in the "Bible" - it most certainly is not scripture. The verses you pulled this name from are not even speaking of Satan. Satan was created to be the destroyer and the tempter by God. God uses Him to complete His great purpose for mankind.

Please show me the scriptures that say Satan or any man has a free will?
There are zero. Like the Doctrine of Hell, it is likewise a teaching of man. What the scriptures do teach is this:

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps. (Darby)

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us. (Darby)

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

You elevate man to be equal and even greater than God by your doctrine of free will. You should believe the scriptures and not the teachings of man.

Matt 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Joe in Arkansas

MelodyC · Jan 6, 2011

Jaareshiah.

Not my place to tell God what he can or cannot do with the wicked for eternity.

You have put forward very humanistic arguments assuming that God couldn't do this or that.

Not your place to decide what happens to the wicked either.

Mankind is under the full Sovereingty of God "like it or
not".

I've put forward totally indisputable scripture verses that clearly state what God intends to do with the wicked. One verse was what Jesus had sais Himself and the other verse from Revelation leaves no doubt of what will await those who reject God.

You can argue black and blue how you cannot accept these scriptures. I have taken the Word of God to be complete and all of it will be fulfilled as God has said it would. I do not dispute the Word of God.

Nothing I say will change your mind. I have issued my warning against the those like you who ignore various parts of the Bible and reject it.

Here is something you should grasp. Jesus is the very Word of God it says so in the first chapter of the gospel of John, do go and read it for yourself.

When you reject God's Word are you not rejecting Jesus Christ Himself? Think about it.

Joe in Arkansas · Jan 6, 2011

Brighthouse said:
one more note,as I always want to show the Word please look at Ezekiel 28:14-19 verse 19 clearly says Satan will not be saved, he will be no MORE! he was the Guardian to the throne of god,and he will be no more, in the end,he will not be saved,for he cannot be. nor will Judas.

Dear Brighthouse,
My response to Ezekiel 28:14-19 is way to long and involved to be posted in this thread. Also, it is off subject from this thread as well. If you would like a response, please email me your email address and I will be happy to respond to you. I checked your profile and you do not have an email address listed.
Thanks,
Joe in Arkansas

Brighthouse · Jan 6, 2011

A man long ago believed in no hell either,he, like you was told by a brother in Lord,of his error,and like you he has his own belief and what he called a supernatural revelation by God himself. I did my best to explain,but alas I was the one mistaken so he said,a few months after this had happened the man was hit by a car in the street,he was taken to the hospital,and the doctors gave this man little hope,in fact while on the operating table he died,he was brought back to life,and later told of a jouney he had taken to hell.He did not reason this because like you, he saw Jesus full of love and mercy and grace! Which he is!! I so agree! but what he did not see,was that our loving God has another side to him,that of being fair and just,it is the side which few wish to look at because deep down in us, we know what we deserve. He did not believe man had free will either,and after the jouney an angel of the Lord took him of hell, he screamed for Jesus to deliever him from the pit he was in.( the Lord did!)The man changed his view,and went back to the scriptures and found what most of hold to in doctrine.The last point given to this man was this John 8:44 The nature of the devil is to lie,this has been his nature since Adam and Eve,why it is his very doctrine if you will.Perhaps the Lord will have enough grace and mercy upon you to give you a journey,it is not something I would pray for to another,because it is to terrible to even consider,but something will happen,and you will see the error of the lie you believe,I can have confidence in this because Jesus loves you just as much as he does any of us!Is the death and the ressurection enough for any to be saved? of course it is,but God did not make us like a train on a track,sure he is all knowing! Yes he knows what we will do.But there are 2 people who do not,us for one,and the devil himslef,for if the devil knew the furture, he would of never used men to have Jesus die only to rise again to give those who believe,our victory in him.If we had no free will, then man and woman have have no choice but to believe in Jesus ,all would have to believe in him,but even you know, all do not,and many have no wish to believe in our Jesus.And to a most Loving God, he is also fair and just.I cannot change your views,I only can warn those who go against his Word. I am the very least of the brethern here,I know only in part like all belevers,but the foundation part of the Bible is love, and justice,for in love, one cannot have one without the other,for our God is also fair,and Holy and righteouss. I shall not comment further about this.I wrote what I wrote not for you,but for younger believers to see truth,but your truth comes from someone who knows no truth.John 8:44-47

MelodyC · Jan 6, 2011

Joe in Arkansas said:
Dear MelodyC,
Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Also, I wanted to say that I have extensively studied the Greek word G166 "aionios". The root of this adjective is aion which means "age". The adjective form of "age" can never change the base meaning of the word from which it is derived. "Age" is a period of time that has a beginning and an ending. "Aionios" therefore cannot mean everlasting - that is the exact opposite of the root word's meaning. The verse you quoted in Matthew is properly translated by Young's Literal Translation as such:

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.

The Elect of God receive life during the next two ages while the non-elect and unbelievers remain lost. But at the end of the last age, all will have entered into the Kingdom of Heaven, however most will have missed being in His church (His bride). At the end of the final age, death will be defeated and "all things" will be "in Christ". Christ will then turn over the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father and then it is said that God will be "all in all". That is as far out into the future as scripture goes. Nothing is said about what happens after of the "ages" are complete.

 1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

How can God be "all in all" if 99% of God's creation is lost and burning in some fabled place of eternal torment?

Also I do not pick and choose which verses of scripture are true and which ones are not. All scripture is true and with proper understanding, nothing in scripture conflicts with itself. However, the translations of scripture are very flawed in certain places. But it is God's will for it to be so. We must study and search for God's truth as if we were searching for hidden treasure. Only the "few" find it. It is God's intention for His truth to be hidden from the "many" during this age.

Joe in Arkansas

The highlighted in pink. You ahve chosen to interpret the Bible on one phrase. All in All.

Interepretation of the Bible is always in context, local and other scriptures. You cannot take one verse or phrase and make it a doctrine especially when there is plenty of scripture that it will then contradict itself with. I mean your interpretation will end up contradicting other scripture (the Bible doesn't contradict itself).

So NO I am not picking one verse true and another isn't. First of all I never said any of your above quote, you did. Don't put words in my mouth and then claim me to be a liar.

The question is what does it mean God being all in all here. Does it literally mean exist or does it mean sovereign. CONTEXT! The whole set of verses are indicating Jesus being made King or Authority over all things, it ends up saying when everthing is under the authority/headship of Jesus then God will be all in all. A curious expression.

Now if God ends up through Christ being made Authority over all things, existing in all, it would be I could only imagine an eternal heartache for Him.

Remember in Revelation that those who are in the Lake of Fire will be tormented in the presence of the Lamb and the holy angles for ever. So the Lord will also be aware for ever that they ar there.

REV 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

As I said all you have done is pose a question. That being:- "will God feel the torment of those in Eternal Punishment?" I don't know? The Bible doesn't reveal to us every little detail of what is to come. We only know what has been recorded for us and put together in the Bible and of course what the Holy Spirit enables us to learn and know.

It doesn't nullify what is said elsewhere in the Bible or contradict what I have already put forward.

I have another language and you can study Ancient Greek but without the social context as well as the dictionary you can not fully know the way which words should be used or interpreted. I am fully aware as I have been educated not just in my parents language but I live in the culture and at the same time as I grew up we ended up living in Australia so as I was educated in English I also had exposure to the social way of life which plays a big role in how words are interpreted or to be used. You can look at the dictionary definition of a word but not fully know how that word is understood by the native speaker. So you cannot claim to fully know Ancient Greek.

Now Age may have a begining or ending in the English use or understanding of that word we can not just assume this is the same in Ancient Greek. I know I have come across this kind of problem in translating between my parents language and English.

Now my Bible is in Old Serbian and that language has been around for centuries. It was translated directly from Ancient Greek (the septuigant). The Matt 25 vs 46 is in English "suffering that lasts for ever". There are two words "suffering" and "forever", the gramatical spelling indicates that the suffering will be forever. I'm not up on grammatical terms but I am fully versed in both languages. So it agrees with the English translation of Everlasting rather than your application of an English limitation of the word Age, back onto the Ancient Greek word Aion.

My experience in having two languages I grew up with and was educated in both is invaluable in my ability to properly translate and the problems with using English word definitions to understand words in another language.

Plus my Serbian Bible written in a OLD (not modern) Serbian where the translation was done in the days when Ancient Greek was still in use. Our language has only changed in the last century with a greater interaction with other countries and the politicial changes after WW2. It has remained unchanged for centuries and would be more accurate than most English translations as they went through Latin and the many changes in the English Language over the past few centuries. Everlasting is certainly and older English word not even used today.

Just an aside the Serbians got their alphabet and the Bible from the Greek (of course and faith we are both Eastern Orthodox). In the days that Ancient Greek was still in use. So I can be more sure of my translation than modern English Bibles of today.

The Bible has to be interpreted in Context of other scripture so you have again totally ignored the scripture in Revelation that says "the wicked will be tormented Day and Night without Rest". That is plain! You cannot dismiss that through your own limited knowledge of Ancient Greek. Origianlly your Bible was translated from Ancient Greek to Latin and then to English. What does the Latin Vulgate have for this and other verses? I would say they would be far more accurate than your abilities as a translator.

SpiritLedEd · Jan 6, 2011

The Robster said:
A lot of people reject Jesus because they never heard the gospel of grace and don't know everything He accomplished at the Cross.

In the Great Commision (Mt 28:19) Jesus said, "Go and make disciples of all nations....." He said "Go!", not "Sit in your pews and pray for them to come to you". The church needs to leave the building, go out into the streets and show Christ's love to the unemployed, the unemployable, the marginalized people. They must be attracted to Him through demonstrations of His love before they will be interested in Him.

SLE

Joe in Arkansas · Jan 6, 2011

MelodyC said:
The highlighted in pink. You ahve chosen to interpret the Bible on one phrase.

MelodyC said:
All in All.

Interepretation of the Bible is always in context, local and other scriptures. You cannot take one verse or phrase and make it a doctrine especially when there is plenty of scripture that it will then contradict itself with. I mean your interpretation will end up contradicting other scripture (the Bible doesn't contradict itself).

So NO I am not picking one verse true and another isn't. First of all I never said any of your above quote, you did. Don't put words in my mouth and then claim me to be a liar.

The question is what does it mean God being all in all here. Does it literally mean exist or does it mean sovereign. CONTEXT! The whole set of verses are indicating Jesus being made King or Authority over all things, it ends up saying when everthing is under the authority/headship of Jesus then God will be all in all. A curious expression.

Now if God ends up through Christ being made Authority over all things, existing in all, it would be I could only imagine an eternal heartache for Him.

Remember in Revelation that those who are in the Lake of Fire will be tormented in the presence of the Lamb and the holy angles for ever. So the Lord will also be aware for ever that they ar there.

As I said all you have done is pose a question. That being:- "will God feel the torment of those in Eternal Punishment?" I don't know? The Bible doesn't reveal to us every little detail of what is to come. We only know what has been recorded for us and put together in the Bible and of course what the Holy Spirit enables us to learn and know.

It doesn't nullify what is said elsewhere in the Bible or contradict what I have already put forward.

I have another language and you can study Ancient Greek but without the social context as well as the dictionary you can not fully know the way which words should be used or interpreted. I am fully aware as I have been educated not just in my parents language but I live in the culture and at the same time as I grew up we ended up living in Australia so as I was educated in English I also had exposure to the social way of life which plays a big role in how words are interpreted or to be used. You can look at the dictionary definition of a word but not fully know how that word is understood by the native speaker. So you cannot claim to fully know Ancient Greek.

Now Age may have a begining or ending in the English use or understanding of that word we can not just assume this is the same in Ancient Greek. I know I have come across this kind of problem in translating between my parents language and English.

Now my Bible is in Old Serbian and that language has been around for centuries. It was translated directly from Ancient Greek (the septuigant). The Matt 25 vs 46 is in English "suffering that lasts for ever". There are two words "suffering" and "forever", the gramatical spelling indicates that the suffering will be forever. I'm not up on grammatical terms but I am fully versed in both languages. So it agrees with the English translation of Everlasting rather than your application of an English limitation of the word Age, back onto the Ancient Greek word Aion.

My experience in having two languages I grew up with and was educated in both is invaluable in my ability to properly translate and the problems with using English word definitions to understand words in another language.

Plus my Serbian Bible written in a OLD (not modern) Serbian where the translation was done in the days when Ancient Greek was still in use. Our language has only changed in the last century with a greater interaction with other countries and the politicial changes after WW2. It has remained unchanged for centuries and would be more accurate than most English translations as they went through Latin and the many changes in the English Language over the past few centuries. Everlasting is certainly and older English word not even used today.

Just an aside the Serbians got their alphabet and the Bible from the Greek (of course and faith we are both Eastern Orthodox). In the days that Ancient Greek was still in use. So I can be more sure of my translation than modern English Bibles of today.

The Bible has to be interpreted in Context of other scripture so you have again totally ignored the scripture in Revelation that says "the wicked will be tormented Day and Night without Rest". That is plain! You cannot dismiss that through your own limited knowledge of Ancient Greek. Origianlly your Bible was translated from Ancient Greek to Latin and then to English. What does the Latin Vulgate have for this and other verses? I would say they would be far more accurate than your abilities as a translator.

Dear MedodyC,
I have never claimed to be an expert on Greek. I said that I have extensively studied the meaning of "aion" and its adjective "aionios". No language can be perfectly word for word translated into another language. It is just not possible. That is one of the reasons why the KJV translation is flawed even with its over 1000 corrections/revisions that have been made to it over the centuries. Its translation of "aionios" is one of its major problems. Much has been written about the translation of that word and to an unbiased person one is able to conclude that its definition should never be "forever" or "everlasting". It can also be proven from the early Christian writers that the "everlasting" definition was added at a much later date than when the scriptures were written. It is not hard to research "aionios" from the internet, however, it is most difficult to convince anyone who requires it to be translated "everlasting" so that their Doctrine of Hell will be supported.

You said that you are not picking and choosing which verses are true. How do you understand these verses in Timothy and make them fit with the everlasting torture of most of mankind?

1Tim 2:4-6 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

If there were a verse that said "who will not have all men be saved" you would use that as proof for your doctrine. But there is no such verse. As for turning Christ's "will" into "desires" as some like to do is of no avail either. God will have all His pleasures and desires. Mankind is reputed as nothing to God. He turns us any which way He desires.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

If God only desires to save all mankind it will happen. We are nothing and God is in complete control over all His creation. Nothing happens without God being the cause of it happening. Since God wills that all men be saved, it will happen.

Also, using supposed "context" to prove points can easily be twisted into one's point of view. The "context" of the verses in Timothy are speaking about mankind and not just those people who come to Christ. Of course, Christ will save those who come to Him but scripture clearly states that all mankind will come to Him. Since God's Word says that all men will come to Christ, then by necessity all men must be saved.

John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Everyone in God's creation was given to Christ by the Father. That same everyone will come to Christ and be saved just as these verses swear to it:

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Isa 45:22-23 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

God has sworn to Himself that "all the ends of the earth will bow at the knee to Him and be saved. Paul restates this Old Testament prophesy in Phil 2:10-11.

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

No man can confess that Jesus is Lord except by the indwelling of His Spirit.

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> 1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

All mankind (all the ends of the earth - that should be everyone) will make this confession of faith to the GLORY of the Father.

Are you still going to tell me that 99%+ of mankind who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will be burning in hell someday and that that is going to give GLORY to the Father?

Back in the middle ages they used to burn supposed "heretics" at the stake and they reasoned that they were right in doing so because of the doctrine of hell. They said that since God was going to be burning them in hell shortly anyway that it is reasonable to go ahead burn them in this physical life now. Since I suppose that you would be against burning heretics at the stake, why is it to God's glory for Him to burn them in hell for eternity? According to scripture, all it takes is one sin to be lost. Do you think it is reasonable and just to burn someone for eternity for merely telling one little lie? That is the punishment that the doctrine of hell says they deserve. It is sick, sick, sick to think that our Lord and Savior will turn into such a monster. Christ commands us to love our enemies just as He showed us by His life and ministry. Why do you suppose that Christ is going to stop loving most of mankind in the future? Scripture says that Christ is the same yesterday, today and for the ages. Seems odd that He loves sinners one day and then the next day wants to burn them alive in hell forever. Can't you see the enormous conflict that the doctrine of hell has with scripture?

Joe in Arkansas

MelodyC · Jan 7, 2011

Joe in Arkansas said:
Dear MedodyC,
I have never claimed to be an expert on Greek. I said that I have extensively studied the meaning of "aion" and its adjective "aionios". No language can be perfectly word for word translated into another language. It is just not possible. Joe in Arkansas

Joe ,

I ahe gone and done a full study for myself only to find you have purposefully lied and that the GREEK word aion actually has the meaning of Eternity.

I could link you to many websites Greek Dictionaries and even the Modern Greek Orthodox Bible sites that have an English Translation. Surely if you can't believe me that my Serbian Bible uses the word forever you cannot despute that the Greeks don't know their own language. Even the Greeks today use the word Eternity or Eternal where the English versions have used Everlasting. I have used the Matt 25 vs 46 as one of my references for this.

I will just say this. I don't condemn you or judge you. Don't be sooooo melodramtic. However you are not mainstream Christian in your viewpoint. Even the Catholics belive in Eternal Damnation, the Eastern Orthodox and most Protestants have held for centuries to a different doctrine than your own. Now you come here and try to introduce your ideas and expect me to agree with you or not warn others who read this forum that it isn't mainstream Christian Doctrine.

There are many good well known Christian teachers of the past that have addressed the heresy you believe and are trying to convince people of here. Here is one by John Darby.

On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal (aion and aionios)*
J. N. Darby.
<31003E> 124
{*Both Plato and Aristotle treat the universe as a living animal, proved so by its constant movements: from them also Philo.}

I have thought that, as one of the forms in which infidelity circulates at present is Universalism, or the Restitution of all things, it might be well to put out clearly and simply some facts (for that is what they are), which may deprive its advocates of one main ground of their reasonings, and that without any reasoning on the general subject of a doctrine, which, when examined, sets aside the truth of Christianity. I refer to the meaning of aion, and also of aionios. We are told by Dr. Farrar, with much pretension to competency in affirming it, that "everlasting" or "eternal" ought not to be found in the Bible; by Mr. Cox, that it means properly an "age" and "age-long," and that it cannot be right to translate them eternal or everlasting. Mr. Jukes, with a wild imagination, takes the same ground. They simply echo one another. Now all I purpose to do here is to state some passages from other authors, which prove that (while used in other senses, some of which are not found at all in Scripture), it does mean "eternity" and "eternal." I will afterwards examine some of the passages in Scripture in which it is found.
Aion in Greek properly means "eternity." I do not dispute here, whether we are to believe with Aristotle, that it is derived from aei einai; or with other modern writers from aio, I breathe, whence it had the meaning in Homer, Euripides, and other authors, of life and breath; or possibly these may be two different words, one from aei on, the other from ao spiro, whence the two very different meanings. This is certain, that the word is distinctly used by Plato, Aristotle, and Philo (and, according to the dictionaries, by Lycurgus, whom I have not the means of consulting) as "eternal," in contrast with what is of time having beginning or ending, as its definite and proper meaning.

Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: "When the father who begot it* perceived that the image made by him of the eternal (aidion) gods moved and lived, he was delighted with his work; and, led by this delight, thought to make his work much more like that first exemplar." Inasmuch therefore as it (the intelligible universe) is an eternal (aidion) animal (living being), so he set about to make this (the sensible) universe such with all his power. The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, that which in fact we call time; that is, days and nights, and months and years, which did not subsist before the heaven began to be, then with its being established he operates their birth" (beginning to be, genesin auton). And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... Time therefore began with heaven. that they having begun with it may be dissolved with it, if there be indeed any dissolution of them, and according to the pattern of eternal (diaionias, in some MSS. aionion or -as) nature that it might be as like as possible to it. For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." And then he goes on to speak of stars and planets, etc., as connected with what was created in time. It is impossible to conceive any more positive statement that aion is distinct, and to be contrasted with what has a beginning and belongs to the flux of time. Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages. It is a careful opposition between eternity and ages; and aion and also aionios mean the former in contrast with ages.

125 I now give Aristotle peri ouranou, 1, 9 (ed. Bekker, 1, 279): "Time," he says, "is the number of movement, but there is no movement without a physical body. But outside heaven it has been shewn that there is not, nor possibly can come into existence, any body. It is evident then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time outside. Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). For this expression (name) has been divinely uttered by the ancients; for the completeness which embraces the time of the life of each, outside which there is nothing, according to nature, is called the aion of each. According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios. Aristotle has not the abstract thoughts of Plato as to ideas, and the paradeigma of what is visible, the latter being a produced image of the eternal paradeigma. He rests more in what is known by the senses; and makes this the eternal thing in itself. But the force of aion for both is a settled point; and Aristotle's explanation of aion as used for finite things, I have long held to be the true one; that is, the completeness of a thing's existence, so that according to its natural existence there is nothing outside or beyond it. It periechei the whole being of the thing.

the rest of article can be found at ...On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal

I know you will not bother to read this article but I can produce far more.

The Hebrew concept of time and "aionios" and "aion"

By Eric Landström

Universalists all promote that unsaved sinful man can come into a state of salvation in the after life. Yet this belief seemingly directly conflicts with Scripture. The strongest proof to reject universalism is a comparison of Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10 and 20:15, which invites the reader to believe that those who are cast into the lake of fire remain there forever. To argue against the understanding that there are souls cast into the lake of fire forever, universalists look to extra-biblical works to support their arguments against the Greek word for "eternal." They quote such and such said this and who and who thinks this, and so on and so forth. They exhaust all their resources to refute this because, quite literally, if the word does indeed mean eternal in regards to the after life, the age to come, the case for Christian universalism evaporates before their very eyes. However, it is wise to note that anything that is extra biblical is just that—extra biblical. As such we are not to base our doctrines upon the musings and words of uninspired men. Commentators are only useful in so much as to draw our attention to a doctrine that either is or is not represented in the Scriptures. However, if you are not educated enough to use Greek as a vehicle for study, you must trust that God did not fail to deliver the Scriptures to you in a language that you can understand. Furthermore, the argument the universalists promote, this ages of ages, flies in the face of the Hebrew concept of time. When taking into account the different concepts of time that Western civilization holds in comparison to the Hebrew concept of time, the rendering of the Hebrew and Greek into "for ever and ever" and the like is correct when it refers to the age to come. Anything different is scholarly pride and ambition as if to say, "Look everybody else is wrong, this should be 'ages of ages.'" Doing this amounts to nothing more than a half truth as I will explain below.
Remember when you mix truth with lie, you still end up with a lie. The more truth you mix with your lie, the better the lie is because it is likely more people will believe your lie is the truth. Furthermore, the longer and the louder you say a lie as the truth the more likely people are going to believe it is the truth. This works because people are basically sinners, and as such desire to hear what they want to hear which is not necessarily the truth. But the facts remain: Truth is more than our subjective feelings of what we feel is right. It has objective existence. It has common application.
Truth is true -even if no one knows it.
Truth is true -even if no one admits it.
Truth is true -even if no one agrees what it is.
Truth is true -even if no one follows it.
Truth is true -even if no one but God grasps it fully.

Since none of the universalists I've discussed this with possess a working knowledge of Greek, they are in no position to determine who is right regarding this issue. As such, unless they gain the knowledge to make an informed call of judgment, they should stick with what they can verify themselves rather than parroting the uninspired words of men*which happens to be the universalist party line.

Something that is within their ability to understand is the Hebrew concept of time. To understand the Hebrew concept of time, you must grasp the idea that the Hebrew mind did not think of the passage of time as a medium onto itself like the Greek mind or how western civilization views time. Rather, to a Hebrew, the passage of time was life. God's plan, in the Hebrew mind, consisted that man participated in two great ages. One age was this temporal in nature, the other great age was the age to come. Each of these great ages were divided up into smaller ages by events that occurred through life. Ultimately the sum of the temporal age was finite, and the sum of the age to come was infinite, which is to say, everlasting. Hence, the rendering of "ages of ages" while technically correct, completely fails to convey the meaning to the western reader. Therefore, to render the English as "for ever and ever" is correct, because this does explain the idea of the passage. However, if you are a universalist whom disbelieves this explanation, I encourage that you don't trust me, instead learn of the truth for yourselves from an expert. To accomplish this, I ask that you seek out your local synagogue and speak with the rabbi you find there. For starters, the rabbi is a completely neutral source of information; because his view will most likely be that we are both members of a really big cult called Christendom, and as such, he won't care one way or another. Get the rabbi to explain how Old Testament Hebrews viewed time. While ages of ages is a correct possible grammatical construction from an Old Testament Hebrew's point of view*this means "forever and ever" to the same Old Testament Hebrew when it refers to the age to come, the after life. Thus any translator interested in translating what is meant by the phrase in the original language will render the Greek "for ever and ever" or the like when applicable in English.

the rest of article can be found at
The Hebrew concept of time and "aionios" and "aion"

I cannot debate this with you over and over and over again. Your belief is outside the main Churches/Denominations stances on how these scriptures and words should be interpreted.

While I have issues with certain teaching in my parents denomination I certainly find that they at least have the fundamental teachings on Christ, the Devil, Israel and what happens to people afterwards in eternity.

Your interpretation of God being "all in all" meaning all mankind has the Holy Spirit is incorrect and I do not agree with your interpretation. Only the wicked who have rejected Christ and do not receive the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of their salvation will go to Everlasting Punishment.

I'm done couldn't be bothered to show you why your interpretation of 'all in all' is incorrect.

Basically you are not able to convince me to give up my sound doctrine for your pack of lies.

We shall see who goes to heaven and who will not. I am confident of my salvation. Hope you are of yours.

Cheers
MelC

jiggyfly · Jan 7, 2011

Brighthouse said:
A man long ago believed in no hell either,he, like you was told by a brother in Lord,of his error,and like you he has his own belief and what he called a supernatural revelation by God himself. I did my best to explain,but alas I was the one mistaken so he said,a few months after this had happened the man was hit by a car in the street,he was taken to the hospital,and the doctors gave this man little hope,in fact while on the operating table he died,he was brought back to life,and later told of a jouney he had taken to hell.He did not reason this because like you, he saw Jesus full of love and mercy and grace! Which he is!! I so agree! but what he did not see,was that our loving God has another side to him,that of being fair and just,it is the side which few wish to look at because deep down in us, we know what we deserve. He did not believe man had free will either,and after the jouney an angel of the Lord took him of hell, he screamed for Jesus to deliever him from the pit he was in.( the Lord did!)The man changed his view,and went back to the scriptures and found what most of hold to in doctrine.The last point given to this man was this John 8:44 The nature of the devil is to lie,this has been his nature since Adam and Eve,why it is his very doctrine if you will.Perhaps the Lord will have enough grace and mercy upon you to give you a journey,it is not something I would pray for to another,because it is to terrible to even consider,but something will happen,and you will see the error of the lie you believe,I can have confidence in this because Jesus loves you just as much as he does any of us!Is the death and the ressurection enough for any to be saved? of course it is,but God did not make us like a train on a track,sure he is all knowing! Yes he knows what we will do.But there are 2 people who do not,us for one,and the devil himslef,for if the devil knew the furture, he would of never used men to have Jesus die only to rise again to give those who believe,our victory in him.If we had no free will, then man and woman have have no choice but to believe in Jesus ,all would have to believe in him,but even you know, all do not,and many have no wish to believe in our Jesus.And to a most Loving God, he is also fair and just.I cannot change your views,I only can warn those who go against his Word. I am the very least of the brethern here,I know only in part like all belevers,but the foundation part of the Bible is love, and justice,for in love, one cannot have one without the other,for our God is also fair,and Holy and righteouss. I shall not comment further about this.I wrote what I wrote not for you,but for younger believers to see truth,but your truth comes from someone who knows no truth.John 8:44-47

Couple of questions Brighthouse, first if this man really experienced hell then how did he escape if there is no "second chances" and no escaping hell once you are there?

Secondly, in light of your statement that God is fair and just, please explain then how unending torment is fair and just when the just or fair penalty according to the scriptures is death?

Jaareshiah · Jan 7, 2011

Joe in Arkansas said:
Dear MelodyC,
It does seem that it is up to each person to accept or reject Christ but that is not what scripture says.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

God is our Savior and He will draw us to Christ at the time of His choosing. Until He decides to draw us to Christ, we will continue to reject Christ. That is the scriptural answer to why we see people rejecting Jesus - God has simply not drawn them to Christ yet. But in due season, God will draw them to Christ and He will "raise us up at the last day". We must have patience and wait on God to complete all that He said He would do for mankind.

John 12:32  And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

In the end, no one will reject Christ.

Phi 2:10-11  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

All men will eventually be drawn to Christ out of love for Him and not by fear and it will be done by the power of God and to His glory. Do you believe Christ will succeed in His mission to save the world or fail in this mission? Scripture says that God is love and that love does not fail. Do you believe those scriptures?

1John 4:14  And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

1 Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

As the scripture says, all men will someday accept Christ and find salvation in Him. The Word of God does not lie, it is merely our misunderstanding of His Word that makes us think that Christ is not really the Savior of the world. We must have patience and wait for God's plan for mankind to unfold and be competed. After all, making mankind into God's image is a long and very difficult birth process. We all must experience this painful process - God does not give us a choice in the matter. But in the end, I have every confidence that it will be worth all the pain and suffering we must endure in order to be born into the Kingdom of God.

May the Lord bless you with the knowledge of His Word,
Joe in Arkansas

The vast majority of mankind will reject Jesus, for he himself said, three days before his death: "When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left."(Matt 25:32,33) Concerning the "goats", those who stubbornly refuse to meet God's requirements for being "meek"(Matt 5:5), these in turn are told by Jesus: "Be on your way from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire (of destruction) prepared for the Devil and his angels."(Matt 25:41)

About three years earlier, Jesus had said that "broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."(Matt 7:13,14) Hence, few would be willing to conform to God's requirements for life, with the vast majority feeling instead that it is too restrictive, too "narrow" or "cramped".

In addition, Jesus stated: "Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able."(Luke 13:24) Because the door to life is so narrow, requiring vigorous effort to conform and make changes, most are not willing to do so. These are thus on the "broad and spacious....road leading off into destruction." Most are unwilling to cast off the "old personality with it's practices and clothe (themselves) with the new personality, which through accurate knowledge is being made new according to the image of the One who created it".(Col 3:9, 10)

As a result, the nations have set up their own sovereignties on the earth, and have disregarded God's universal sovereignty.(Rev 4:11) Psalms 2:2 says that "kings of earth take their stand and high officials themselves have massed together as one against Jehovah and against his anointed one." Due to their opposition against Jehovah God and his Son, Jesus Christ, these will then be dealt with by an "iron scepter", for Psalms 2:9 says of Jesus who was given "nations as your inheritance" by Jehovah God (Ps 2:8): "You will break them with an iron scepter, as though a potter’s vessel you will dash them to pieces.”

The tone is set for "the war of the great day of God the Almighty", called Armageddon [Hebrew Har–Ma·ged´on].(Rev 16:14, 16) This war is Jehovah God against "the kings of the entire inhabited earth." Thus, most will reject Jesus as their savior, and will be destroyed at God's war of Har–Ma·ged´on. At that time, Jesus, as commander of the heavenly angelic armies, will proceed to ' dash the nations to pieces ' with a symbolic "iron scepter", his firm ruling authority as king of God's kingdom.(Rev 19)

Joe in Arkansas · Jan 7, 2011

MelodyC said:
Joe ,

I ahe gone and done a full study for myself only to find you have purposefully lied and that the GREEK word aion actually has the meaning of Eternity.

I could link you to many websites Greek Dictionaries and even the Modern Greek Orthodox Bible sites that have an English Translation. Surely if you can't believe me that my Serbian Bible uses the word forever you cannot despute that the Greeks don't know their own language. Even the Greeks today use the word Eternity or Eternal where the English versions have used Everlasting. I have used the Matt 25 vs 46 as one of my references for this.

I will just say this. I don't condemn you or judge you. Don't be sooooo melodramtic. However you are not mainstream Christian in your viewpoint. Even the Catholics belive in Eternal Damnation, the Eastern Orthodox and most Protestants have held for centuries to a different doctrine than your own. Now you come here and try to introduce your ideas and expect me to agree with you or not warn others who read this forum that it isn't mainstream Christian Doctrine.

There are many good well known Christian teachers of the past that have addressed the heresy you believe and are trying to convince people of here. Here is one by John Darby.

I know you will not bother to read this article but I can produce far more.

I cannot debate this with you over and over and over again. Your belief is outside the main Churches/Denominations stances on how these scriptures and words should be interpreted.

While I have issues with certain teaching in my parents denomination I certainly find that they at least have the fundamental teachings on Christ, the Devil, Israel and what happens to people afterwards in eternity.

Your interpretation of God being "all in all" meaning all mankind has the Holy Spirit is incorrect and I do not agree with your interpretation. Only the wicked who have rejected Christ and do not receive the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of their salvation will go to Everlasting Punishment.

I'm done couldn't be bothered to show you why your interpretation of 'all in all' is incorrect.

Basically you are not able to convince me to give up my sound doctrine for your pack of lies.

We shall see who goes to heaven and who will not. I am confident of my salvation. Hope you are of yours.

Cheers
MelC

Dear MelodyC,
If you would care to read an unbiased examination of the word "aion" & "aionios", I recommend "Whence Eternity" by Alexander Thompson. You should not have any trouble finding a copy of it to read on the internet. I stand by his work along with the countless others who have come to the same conclusions as A. Thompson.

You said:
I cannot debate this with you over and over and over again. Your belief is outside the main Churches/Denominations stances on how these scriptures and words should be interpreted.

Up until five years ago, I would have been in full agreement with you on nearly everything you believe. I was in the harlot church hook, line and sinker. But Christ had mercy upon me and healed my spiritual blindness as a result of a prayer He caused me to pray back in October 2005. Since that day, I have found that nothing the mainstream churches teach is totally true. Most of it (like the doctrines of hell, trinity, free will, tithing, sinner's prayer etc) are totally non-scriptural and false. But I am what I am because of Christ's mercy upon me. I love to share the true "Good News" of Christ with those who are in the Harlot church whenever I can though there be only "few" who hear and believe.

Being part of the majority in Christianity leads to the wide gate and the Lake of Fire. Just like in the days of the Old Testament, the "remnant" are the ones who are accepted by God. It is no different now. The "many" who are called to the church will remain carnal and unconverted. Only the "few chosen & faithful" will go on to full maturity in Christ and the 1st resurrection. Those "few" (the Elect) will be called out of the Harlot church system so that they can grow and mature in the true Christ. The Truth will set them free from the plagues of the Great ***** who reigns over the earth.

"Earth" is one of the symbols God uses for the false church in Revelation. The "sea" is the non-called or unbelievers. When we first come to Christ, we come out of the sea up a little higher onto the land. From there we must rise up again and dwell in the "heavens" where Christ dwells. Unless you come out and dwell in the heavens with Christ, the called believer who dwells on the earth will miss the 1st resurrection. Heaven is not a location as you believe. The Kingdom of Heaven is inside us. Heaven is a state of being controlled by the Holy Spirit. That is what is meant by "life more abundant" in John 10:10. We must grow in Christ to where we are walking by the Spirit. A 10 second sinners prayer will not save a person into the Kingdom of Heaven. We must "die" and rise again as a new creature in Christ. Paul talked of this change that must take place within us a great deal in his letters. That is why He said that "I die daily". All the physical rituals are merely "types" of a spiritual reality that must happen in our lives. Water baptism, communion, washing of feet, sabbath keeping, etc are all types of a spiritual reality. Nothing physical will save a person. Salvation is spiritual and happens "within" us. Also, no one is "saved" into the Kingdom of Heaven in this life before they die. The 1st resurrection is only for the chosen who endure until the end (physical death). Paul commented that he could still be a castaway and not achieve the 1st resurrection. It was not until the end of His life that He knew he had made it (finished the race). We are all saved from death by Christ's sacrifice at the cross but that sacrifice alone does not gain us entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven. We must be "born again" and shed our sin nature (our Old man). It is a long & difficult process that all mankind must and will go through. Christ does not give us a choice. He will direct all our paths to Him in due time.

Melody, I appreciate you discussing your understanding of the doctrine of hell with me and for you remaining polite. It has been my experience that most will be so "pricked" by God's Word that they resort to name calling and worse. So thank you for your gentleness in our discussions. Though I cannot call you a sister in Christ at this time, I know by the authority of God's Word that someday I will. Christ is the Savior and He is faithful and true to complete what He started at the cross within you & me and the rest of mankind, to be testified in due time.

Joe in Arkansas

rojoloco · Jan 8, 2011

blessed07 said:
why do people reject jesus as there savior.

I gave a whole sermon on this a while back. I'll post it here so you can read it if you desire. I believe you will find a Scriptural answer.

Total Depravity

The first section I will be teaching on is Total Depravity.

Ask a question: Q: Why do most people who say they are going to Heaven claim it to be so? A: Because they are a good person.

Total Depravity teaches the exact opposite. It teaches that a man has no good within himself. It teaches that man is wicked, wretched, dead in sin, corrupt, and perverse. Total depravity can also be called total inability; within one’s self, there is absolutely zero ability to be saved. Just as man is completely unable to fly, he is also completely unable to perform any act pertaining to salvation.

Westminster Confession of Faith
Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

Many have bought into the lie that is Arminianism. As we dissect the five points, I am hoping you will all see Scripture for what it really says; that all glory is God’s alone.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

Ephesians 2:1
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

Genesis 8:21b
for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth;

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it?

John 3:19
This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

As we went over last week, man cannot understand the things of the Spirit without the Spirit first residing in him. In order for the Spirit to reside in him, he must first be regenerated to the point where his body is the temple of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

Titus sums is up quite nicely:

Titus 1:15
To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defile.

We are at war with God and hate Him. Before God calls us to Him, we serve Satan. We have no desire to serve God nor can we possibly desire it.

John 3:20a
For everyone who does evil hates the Light

John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father

Romans 3:9-12
What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

All of the above passages confirm our fallen state. Many will agree with this. The area of contention really stems from the belief of whether or not a man has any power whatsoever to do anything about it.

Job 14:4
Who can make the clean out of the unclean?
No one!

Jeremiah 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin
Or the leopard his spots?
Then you also can do good
Who are accustomed to doing evil.

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Many claim an active role in their salvation. Instead of giving full glory to God, they try to cling to some sliver of control by saying they made the choice to be saved. While it sounds nice and many claim it is what the Bible teaches based on its many passages of choosing, it is not accurate. The Bible would never teach a doctrine that would steal glory from God and place it in the hands of men. To say we chose God is to effectively say we saved ourselves. It is to say God was not in full control of the situation and that all the above verses are a lie.

1 Corinthians 4:7
For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

2 Corinthians 3:5
Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,

Salvation has nothing to do with anything that came from us. For us to claim that we chose God instead of rejecting God means that we took an active part in our salvation. With such an active part, we would have much to boast about but we are told that we’ve got nothing. We are told that we received salvation and that we have nothing to boast about because it was not of ourselves in any way. Our entire adequacy of salvation is from God alone. We are totally depraved and incapable to seeking God. To Him be the glory!

Joe in Arkansas · Jan 8, 2011

rojoloco said:
I gave a whole sermon on this a while back. I'll post it here so you can read it if you desire. I believe you will find a Scriptural answer.

Total Depravity

The first section I will be teaching on is Total Depravity.

Ask a question: Q: Why do most people who say they are going to Heaven claim it to be so? A: Because they are a good person.

Total Depravity teaches the exact opposite. It teaches that a man has no good within himself. It teaches that man is wicked, wretched, dead in sin, corrupt, and perverse. Total depravity can also be called total inability; within one’s self, there is absolutely zero ability to be saved. Just as man is completely unable to fly, he is also completely unable to perform any act pertaining to salvation.

Westminster Confession of Faith
Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

Many have bought into the lie that is Arminianism. As we dissect the five points, I am hoping you will all see Scripture for what it really says; that all glory is God’s alone.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

Ephesians 2:1
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

Genesis 8:21b
for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth;

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it?

John 3:19
This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

As we went over last week, man cannot understand the things of the Spirit without the Spirit first residing in him. In order for the Spirit to reside in him, he must first be regenerated to the point where his body is the temple of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

Titus sums is up quite nicely:

Titus 1:15
To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defile.

We are at war with God and hate Him. Before God calls us to Him, we serve Satan. We have no desire to serve God nor can we possibly desire it.

John 3:20a
For everyone who does evil hates the Light

John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father

Romans 3:9-12
What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

All of the above passages confirm our fallen state. Many will agree with this. The area of contention really stems from the belief of whether or not a man has any power whatsoever to do anything about it.

Job 14:4
Who can make the clean out of the unclean?
No one!

Jeremiah 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin
Or the leopard his spots?
Then you also can do good
Who are accustomed to doing evil.

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Many claim an active role in their salvation. Instead of giving full glory to God, they try to cling to some sliver of control by saying they made the choice to be saved. While it sounds nice and many claim it is what the Bible teaches based on its many passages of choosing, it is not accurate. The Bible would never teach a doctrine that would steal glory from God and place it in the hands of men. To say we chose God is to effectively say we saved ourselves. It is to say God was not in full control of the situation and that all the above verses are a lie.

1 Corinthians 4:7
For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

2 Corinthians 3:5
Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,

Salvation has nothing to do with anything that came from us. For us to claim that we chose God instead of rejecting God means that we took an active part in our salvation. With such an active part, we would have much to boast about but we are told that we’ve got nothing. We are told that we received salvation and that we have nothing to boast about because it was not of ourselves in any way. Our entire adequacy of salvation is from God alone. We are totally depraved and incapable to seeking God. To Him be the glory!

Dear Rojoloco,
I read your profile and saw that you are currently serving in the Navy. I served from 85 - 89 as a Navy Supply Corps. officer and was also stationed in San Diego. I served on the USS O'Brien (DD-975) and the USS Frederick (LST-1184). Are you serving on a ship or shore?

I enjoyed reading your post and must say that I agree with you completely on the points that you made. God is in complete control of our salvation, we are not the cause of it in any way. Though you did not say, I assume that you believe in the doctrine of hell and believe that most of mankind will spend eternity there. If you look back at my posts on this thread, you will find that I do not agree with that understanding of scripture.

I do agree that we are saved by grace through faith. However, grace is not what the mainstream church believes it is. It is not simply a "pardon" requiring nothing but a 10 second sinners prayer to receive it. Grace teaches and chastises us to forsake ungodliness. It teaches us through the Word of God and by judgment. It causes us to seek Him and to love Him. It causes our spiritual blindness to be healed so that we can see the true Christ and hears His words. It causes us to mature in Christ and not remain babes in Christ (who are no different than a bond servant and will not be heirs to the promise). All that Christ does for us to be fully made into God's image is grace. We deserve nothing and are nothing. It is simply by God's choosing that we can be saved into the Kingdom of Heaven. Since He is the one who chooses us and loves us, He has promised to save us all. Do you agree with that statement?

Sincerely,
Joe in Arkansas

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