Sanctification vs Justification

[brakelite]

Hi papajim,

When I said ""for righteousness to be perfected by the flesh", I was referring to doctrines similar to what you follow.
To clarify, I am referring to the fact that you do not see anyone as righteous unless they are perfectly keeping the law.
You say you do not judge others by the law, yet you preach that people are unrighteousness unless they perfectly keep the law.
You also say that you do use the law to judge your own righteousness.
But what is really happening is that you are judging righteousness by works of he law.

This is a contradiction to scripture which says our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
We cannot mix grace with works of the law, as the doctrine you follow has done, Rom 11:6.

A little leaven (doctrines of works of the law, Matt 16:12) leavens the whole lump, Gal 5:9
We need to purge out the old leaven (doctrines of works of the law), 1Cor 5:7.
Remember that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, to everyone that believes, Rom 10:4
Therefore you should reject that works of the law doctrine you follow, which uses the law to determine righteousness.

You speak of repenting when you do transgress the law/sin.
Just a reminder to you that you make yourself a transgressor/Sinner when you go under the law to judge righteousness, Gal 2:18.

Christians are not under the law for righteousness, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, 1Tim 1:9, Gal 5:18. Hence we do not use the law to judge anyone, not even ourselves.
Our righteousness is by faith instead.
And Christians did repent of their "dead works" (Heb 6:1) when we received Christ. After that there is no more subsequent sin (and no more repentance, Heb 6:4-6). We've "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1, "cannot sin" 1John 3:9.

The doctrine you follow speaks of repenting whenever you transgress the law or else you're lost/unsaved. This is not supported in scripture and it also puts it's followers under the law for righteousness, still.

Can I ask you some questions Barny? Since becoming a Christian, has your life changed? And if so, for the good, or for the worse? If it has changed for the good, then who changed it? You, or God? Now presuming you answered God, tell me, is there any limit on what God can accomplish in you?

Contrariwise, if your life hasn't changed, why not?

 

[Barny]

Can I ask you some questions Barny? Since becoming a Christian, has your life changed? And if so, for the good, or for the worse? If it has changed for the good, then who changed it? You, or God? Now presuming you answered God, tell me, is there any limit on what God can accomplish in you?

Contrariwise, if your life hasn't changed, why not?

Yes, my life has changed for the better. And yes, it was God who changed it.
By the way, I'm not perfect in my physical behavior though.
But, I have found with those who preach doctrines of physical perfection that they likewise fail to attain this.

Whilst I agree with you that God is not limited, I think the point you wish to make is incorrect.

This physical life is just like the wilderness experience Israel faced when they fled out of Egypt. Hence we see it's a walk of faith, believing God's promise. So we face the trying of our faith in this imperfect physical environment. And those who continue to believe will enter in to His rest.

But, there are some who turn back to unbelief, and therefore fail to enter in to His rest.
One common example of unbelief is to turn back to the law/10 commandments for righteousness. There are those who insist that unless we keep the law then we're unrighteous/lost. Those who follow such doctrines (often mixed with grace to make it seem acceptable) are in unbelief as they do not accept that our faith is counted for righteousness.

The doctrine of works of the law was referred to as leaven, by Jesus, in Matt 16:12.
And we are warned that a little leaven (doctrines of works of the law) leavens the whole lump, Gal 5:9.
We are told to purge out the old leaven, 1Cor 5:7

The law is also spoken of allegorically as Hagar, Gal 4:24.
And there are many warnings in scripture that we are to abstain from fornication/sexual immorality. These warnings refer to fornication with Hagar/the law.
1Cor 5:13 says we should "put away such wicked persons" who fornicate with Hagar/the law.

God gives these warnings for good reason. Hence we should have absolutely nothing to do with this leaven. To fornicate with Hagar in any way is to defile the temple of Holy Spirit.
Christians are members of Christ. So we should not then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot/Hagar. 1Cor 6:15-20.
We cannot mix grace with works, Rom 11:6.

 

[DHC]

Hello brakelite.


Romans 6
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death,
certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him,
that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should
no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

If your flesh is dead then your spirit is free in Christ.


Romans 6
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin,
but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Romans 6
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin,
yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which
you were delivered.
18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.


We are not involved in a battle with the old man (the flesh),
the old man has died with Christ. We have been set free
from sin and death through Jesus Christ. Our new life is
slavery to the most high God, a life spent in the Spirit.

The flesh will never be reformed, it must die with Christ.

 

[papajim]

Hi papajim,

Sorry, I nearly missed your reply as it was mixed with the quote of my earlier post.

I have encountered doctrines very similar to yours before. You follow a doctrine that teaches that one day in the future, by faith, you will be consistently perfect in this physical life.

I'll quote you in green.
Papajim's views speak of perfect faith. Sin has been defeated so why do we believe it overpowers us? "For sin shall not have dominion over you"

You are mistaken if you think sin overcomes believers. Scripture confirms we've "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1; "cannot sin", 1John 3:9.

You said:
"we don't rely on good behavior, but on Christ and Christ alone. Some how you still think that we think that we are earning rightousness by the law. We don't live by the law but we acknowledge the law, "through the law comes the knowledge of sin" But I take faith and relationship to a much higher conclusion than you do. To say we cannot stop sinning in this world is unbelief and a work of the flesh because you keep referring to your own capabilities and not the power of God in us. Therefore through you unbelief you limit what God can and has done for us and in us."

We both see each other as being in unbelief. You say I'm in unbelief because I don't expect there should be physical proof of perfect behavior in this life. Unfortunately you misunderstand scripture with such a claim.

And I see you as being in unbelief due to your desire to be perfected by the flesh. You deny the sanctification and righteousness believers have in Christ and instead expect to see physical proof of it before you will believe it (interestingly you call this "perfect faith").

The doctrine you follow reminds me of doubting Thomas who would not believe Jesus rose from the dead until he saw the physical evidence first.

You said:
We are saved Barny from all of this. from sin and the acts of sinning. We are freed from sin!!!! We have been seperated from it so that we have no part in it and it is no longer has part in us in Christ. How can you not understand this??
Again we rely completely on God to do this in us.

Christians are certainly freed from sin, Rom 6:7, John 8:36. Scripture even says we've "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1; "cannot sin", 1John 3:9.
Unfortunately you deny that we have this in Christ. Instead you expect to see tangible physical evidence of consistent perfect behavior in this life before you will believe God on it.
Unfortunately your focus is purely on the physical.
But, that physical body is already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10.

And as that body is dead (by faith) already, and we're now justified in Christ, nobody can lay any charges of sin against us, Rom 8:33.

But the doctrine you follow still charges the new creation in Christ with sin, in spite of the cross.
The doctrine you follow deceitfully brings you under the law for righteousness to be perfected by the flesh. And in doing this you make yourself a transgressor/Sinner, Gal 2:18.

Christ is the end of the law for righteous to everyone that believes, Rom 10:4

Yes Barny, I aticipated this would be your answer. Having the imputed righteousness of Christ, we are still to live a Godly life. How can we be a peculiar people of we do not? If we look like the world, eat and drink like the world, talk like the world, live like the world, dress like the world and sin like the world, we are of the world. We are to be different than the world, to overcome the world and that which is in the world, and what is in he world that we need to overcome? SIN! Now that we ARE in Christ we no longer participate in the things of the world, for the world is made of lust. Lust of money, lust of the flesh (by thought and deed) lust of our neighbors possesions, lust for self gain. The law speaks against these things, it speaks against lust. If I am in Christ, then through faith I live the life of Christ which is love; that is contrary to lust. We agree with love and yet you don't see love in the law. The law only speaks against lust not against love. If we do not obey the first four commandments we cannot possibly keep the last six. But think about it, if I were to worship God above all things and not put anything before Him I would have victory over the world and all the things of the world that is why it is the first commandment. If you gave your son a quitar for Christmas and he took that guitar, put it on the wall and bowed down and worshipped it would you not be offended? or would you say, you have the imputed righteousness of Christ, so worship on my son? If I would look upon a woman with sexual desire, would you say you are covered with the imputed righteousness of Christ, lust on? I don't think so. Having the imputed righteousness is not to abuse it, but live by it. When we believe in Jesus we are changed by it, so that we no longer do the things we use to do. We don't just have the imputed righteousness of christ, but we are the imputed righteousness of Christ.

Titus11:11-14
2Tim.3:16,17
1Tim.1:8-11 "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, murders of fathers and muderers of mothers, for manslayers. For whoemongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust."
Verse 16. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

 

[papajim]

Yes, my life has changed for the better. And yes, it was God who changed it.
The law is also spoken of allegorically as Hagar, Gal 4:24.
And there are many warnings in scripture that we are to abstain from fornication/sexual immorality. These warnings refer to fornication with Hagar/the law.
1Cor 5:13 says we should "put away such wicked persons" who fornicate with Hagar/the law.

God gives these warnings for good reason. Hence we should have absolutely nothing to do with this leaven. To fornicate with Hagar in any way is to defile the temple of Holy Spirit.
Christians are members of Christ. So we should not then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot/Hagar. 1Cor 6:15-20.
We cannot mix grace with works, Rom 11:6.

Ok Barny let's look at what happened with Abraham and Hagar. God told Abram that he was to be a father of a great nation, but Abram was up in age as was his wife Sarah. They didn't believe that they could have a child because of her age. Sarah filled with unbelief in the promise of God decided to make it happen on their own. Sarah told Abram (also filled with unbelief) to sleep with the servant Hagar so that they could make the promise happen for themselves. In the process they commited fornication and broke the law that said thou shall not commit adultry even though it hadn't been written yet. So through their unbelief Abram committed sin. Through our unbelief we also commit sin. We have been made righteous, but through our unbelief we do that which is not righteous. Same scenario, same result. When we do that which is not of the law we are under the law through unbelief. "We are freed from sin."

 

[papajim]

If Christ is the head and we are the body would not the head control the body? If the head is righteous then the body is also righteous for what is in the mind or the head is acted out in the body. Christ is the head and Christ is the righteousness of God; would not that righteousness which is in the head be performed in the body which is the church? When my head tells my arm to move it moves, because my mind controls my arm. The head which is Christ controls the church which is the body, so that the righteousness of the head (Christ) is performed in the body (the church). If we perform that which is not of the head then we are not part of the body for we are not controlled by the head. If in the head there is the fullness of God then in the body there is also the fullness of the head. This being true, the head is one with God and the body is one with the head all being one in each other. If there is no sin in God, there is no sin in the head and also no sin in the body, all being without sin. The head controls the actions of the body (physical behavior). "Let this mind which is in Christ Jesus also be in you"
If lust is not of the head then it cannot be in the body. Stealing is lust of possesions that belong to you neighbor, adultry is lust of the flesh, coveting is lust of the mind. We see that lust is being under the law because it speaks against such. Being of the body of Christ these things are no longer a part of us, and if it is a part of us, we are not part of the body because it is not of the head, and the head and body are one.

 

[papajim]

Hello brakelite.


Romans 6
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death,
certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him,
that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should
no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

If your flesh is dead then your spirit is free in Christ.


Romans 6
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin,
but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Romans 6
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin,
yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which
you were delivered.
18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.


We are not involved in a battle with the old man (the flesh),
the old man has died with Christ. We have been set free
from sin and death through Jesus Christ. Our new life is
slavery to the most high God, a life spent in the Spirit.

The flesh will never be reformed, it must die with Christ.

It's all about perception DHC. If I am freed from sin then let me live as though I am freed from sin for this is walking in faith.

 

[papajim]

Have you ever burned your hand on a pan on top of a stove? I mean really blistered it for a couple of days? Now imagine that pain all over your body for eternity. You call that living?
The soul is forever. It is not obliterated. You will also see this in Rev 20:10;

This isn't love this is hatred, so much so that it boggles the mind, and we cannot comprehend it. So I find it contrary to the word of God that says "God is love" So I will throw it out with any other nonsense that is contrary to the word of God!
Study your bible!!!

 

[papajim]

Thankyou for your post papajim I'll just have to break it up a bit and address specific points you made.



Here is also something for you to think about. God said to Adam and Eve "“in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die", but they did not die that same day, they lived another 800 or so years! So this indicates that the death which is the wages of sin, is not ceasing to exist, but eternal separation from God. We note that the antipode for this verse you mentioned is "gift of God is eternal life". So on one side we have "eternal death", and on the other side "eternal life". Or in other words "eternal separation from God" versus "eternal life with God".

I think the Scriptures I have posted indicating that torment is never ending and the fire is never put out , in Greek: 'eis tous aionas ton aionon' , are quite clear and stand alone by themselves without requiring further interpretation.
We note that the Bible never says that the Lake of Fire will cease burning.



Oh dear, where is this from? Jesus never burnt in hell or burnt anywhere. Jesus said to the thief that they would be together in Paradise. Jesus went to the place of the dead, Hades..and the good side of Hades.. Paradise. This is not the same as "Gehenna", lake of fire, which is the final destination of satan and fallen angels and demons and all humans on their side. Unfortunately the KJV translates both places with the Anglo-Saxon word "hell", which leads to the confusion.




Well there's no contradiction in my mind I accept what the Bible says plainly and simply about everlasting torment (Rev 20:20). This is straight from the Bible.
I should add that Judaism has a similar concept of a place of lasting torment, rather than destruction. According to Jewish tradition Gehenna is an afterlife realm where the souls of the unrighteous are punished.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that it is a pagan concept. The idea is in Christianity because it came from Judaism. Most early Christians including the Apostles did not believe differently. Today, the only Christian groups that do not believe in eternal torment are the Christian cults.

We may look to church history to prove that this is so. Of course they are uninspired records but we can look to these sources as historical proof that the doctrine of eternal torment is a very old one and was the commonly held view in the early church, well before the decline of the church got a foothold.

The historical proof is overwhelming that the early Christians generally believed in a place of torment not annihilation. Some of these ones I quote below (e.g. Irenaeus) were only 2nd generation disciples to the apostles themselves.

• • 
    
    • 
      
      • If, therefore, any one shall violently suppose that the destruction of the soul and the flesh in hell amounts to a final annihilation of the two substances, and not to their penal treatment (as if they were to be consumed, not punished), let him recollect that the fire of hell is eternal — expressly announced as an everlasting penalty; and let him admit that it is from this circumstance that this never-ending "killing" is more formidable than a merely human murder, which is only temporal. — Tertullian On the Resurrection of the Flesh Chapter 35

150 AD Justin Martyr: and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years. And if any one say that this is incredible or impossible, this error of ours is one which concerns ourselves only, and no other person, so long as you cannot convict us of doing any harm. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. VIII)

But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been thus defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. — Irenaeus, Against Heresies Book 4, Chapter 39.4

"Inasmuch, then, as in both Testaments there is the same righteousness of God displayed when God takes vengeance, in the one case indeed typically, temporarily, and more moderately; but in the other, really, enduringly, and more rigidly; for the fire is eternal...." — Irenaeus, Against Heresies Book 4, Chapter 28.1

"For neither will you commit any offence against your fathers, if you now show a desire to betake yourselves to that which is quite opposed to their error, since it is likely enough that they themselves are now lamenting in Hades, and repenting with a too late repentance.... — Justin, Hortatory Address to the Greeks Chapter 35

• And by means of this knowledge [of the true God] you shall escape the approaching threat of the fire of judgment, and the rayless scenery of gloomy Tartarus, where never shines a beam from the irradiating voice of the Word! You shall escape the boiling flood of hell's eternal lake of fire, and the eye ever fixed in menacing glare of fallen angels chained in Tartarus as punishment for their sins; and you shall escape the worm that ceaselessly coils for food around the body whose scum has bred it. — Hippolytus, Refutation of All Heresies Book 10, Chapter 30

• We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we shall live another life, better than the present one...or, falling with the rest, a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere by-work, and that we should perish and be annihilated." — Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians Chapter 3
• 
  
  • By and by thou givest up thy life; thou shalt be taken where it grieveth thee to be: there the spiritual punishment, which is eternal, is undergone; there are always wailings: nor dost thou absolutely die therein — there at length too late proclaiming the omnipotent God." — Commodianus, Instructions Chapter 29
  
  

You can read all of the history books you want, and as you said they are not inspired by God,. I have one history book that is inspired by God and if it is contrary to all of your history books then I will throw them out.
The fire of hell is unquenchable I agree, but when it has done it's work it will go out.
In 1988 there was a great fire in Yellowstone National Park, maybe you remember. The fire began as a small fire, the forestry decided to let it burn as a control fire, but it grew to be so big and so hot the it could not be quenched. It resulted in burning one third of the park. It only died when it ran out of fuel. The lake of fire is the same it is unquenchable no one can put it out until it's work is complete. It's work is permanant. How can the universe be cleansed of sin if suffering continues for eternity? God hates sin and He will destroy it once and for all!

I find the eternal burnig fire is not consistant with the sanctuary service which is the gospel in symbols, it not consistant with the gospel, it is not consistant with the word of God, and it is not consistant with the character of God, which is love.
Each man is judged for their actions and they shall pay for their actions no more no less. Why should a man of eighty years old that didn't except Christ, suffer the same fate as Satan and his unholy angels, that has lived in wickedness for who knows how long. Not only did they sin but they tempted countless millions to deny Christ and sin.

Eternal life is only promised to those who except Jesus and all He has to offer, all others will perish. Perish is in great contrast with eternal life. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" The first death is the death which all men die except for Enoch, Elijah, and the last generation of the faithful at the coming of Christ. So the second death is what it is refering to, the death in which Jesus paid the penalty.

 

[Barny]

Having the imputed righteousness of Christ, we are still to live a Godly life. How can we be a peculiar people of we do not? If we look like the world, eat and drink like the world, talk like the world, live like the world, dress like the world and sin like the world, we are of the world. We are to be different than the world, to overcome the world and that which is in the world, and what is in he world that we need to overcome? SIN! Now that we ARE in Christ we no longer participate in the things of the world, for the world is made of lust. Lust of money, lust of the flesh (by thought and deed) lust of our neighbors possesions, lust for self gain. The law speaks against these things, it speaks against lust. If I am in Christ, then through faith I live the life of Christ which is love; that is contrary to lust. We agree with love and yet you don't see love in the law. .

Unfortunately you see scriptures as a natural man would. I also used to do the same.
But scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14.

The lust of the world speaks of it's rebellion against God in not wanting to submit to His righteousness, and instead seeking to establish it's own righteousness through works of the law.
That doctrine you follow of grace mixed with works of the law is following the lusts of the world. It's fornication with Hagar/the law. Through this path your on you only make yourself a transgressor/Sinner, Gal 2:18.

You have heard the gospel of Christ. This is how you can overcome the world with it's lusts/fornication.
1Thess 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

 

[brakelite]

Hello brakelite.


Romans 6
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death,
certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him,
that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should
no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

If your flesh is dead then your spirit is free in Christ.


Romans 6
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin,
but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Romans 6
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin,
yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which
you were delivered.
18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.


We are not involved in a battle with the old man (the flesh),
the old man has died with Christ. We have been set free
from sin and death through Jesus Christ. Our new life is
slavery to the most high God, a life spent in the Spirit.

The flesh will never be reformed, it must die with Christ.

Amen, agree with that wholeheartedly. The question remains however, for the Christian, the life we live in the physical realm does change for the better; this was promised by Jesus when He said we would bear good fruit, so how, why, and how far can we go? Do we limit what God can do for us, and why shouldn't our changed lives be in accordance with the law, seeing as how love is the law's fulfilment?

 

[brakelite]

Yes, my life has changed for the better. And yes, it was God who changed it.
By the way, I'm not perfect in my physical behavior though.
But, I have found with those who preach doctrines of physical perfection that they likewise fail to attain this.

Whilst I agree with you that God is not limited, I think the point you wish to make is incorrect.

Okay, lets stop there for a moment. You admit God has changed your life for the better, praise God. That is sure evidence of faith on your part, and a desire for a better life. Great. Now I am not perfect either. As a matter of fact, it sometimes seems to me that the closer I get to Jesus the more aware I am of my failings. But I choose not to limit God in His dealings with me. I am convinced that the reason I am aware of my shortcomings is for the specific reason that I might submit them to God and allow Him to deal with them. It will always remain my choice whether I wish to retain them or not, but will always be outside of my personal capabilities to do anything with them They are part of my character and have been since whenever. Only God can change me, yet it remains my choice how far I let Him go. Sometimes it hurts, to be parted from certain traits and habits of a lifetime. But if God says they gotta go for me to grow and mature then go they must. This is sanctification. And it will last a lifetime.
I refuse to limit God on what He is capable of. He can do anything He likes with me, I hold nothing back and am convinced that whatever He does is for my good. I also see no reason to doubt that eventually, if I am true to my faith, I will someday be as Paul promises the bride will be: unblemished and without spot.

This physical life is just like the wilderness experience Israel faced when they fled out of Egypt. Hence we see it's a walk of faith, believing God's promise. So we face the trying of our faith in this imperfect physical environment. And those who continue to believe will enter in to His rest.

But, there are some who turn back to unbelief, and therefore fail to enter in to His rest.

Precisely. But let us be careful not to confuse belief with presumption. Israel were guilty of both unbelief and presumption. While they thought they had to do something in order to curry favour with God and/or improve on their chances in getting into Canaan, they also, especially after they got there, presumed on God's goodness because they considered they had "Get out of Jail Free Cards" grazing constantly in their back paddocks. Modern Christians treat Jesus sacrifice in a similar manner. They think because the ultimate sacrifice has been made on their behalf, this gives them license to sin. Reminds me of the one commandment of the Satanist religion started by Alistair Crowley. "Do what thou wilt". Your constant rejection of God's laws is akin to rejecting His authority in your life. And your constant changing of the subject and seeing things only from one perspective is an indication of this also, as you have so clearly stated below.

One common example of unbelief is to turn back to the law/10 commandments for righteousness. There are those who insist that unless we keep the law then we're unrighteous/lost. Those who follow such doctrines (often mixed with grace to make it seem acceptable) are in unbelief as they do not accept that our faith is counted for righteousness.

See how you have twisted things to suit your argument? No-one, neither Papajim or I, have claimed the Ten Commandments as our means of gaining righteousness. In fact exactly the opposite, rather what we have been consytantly promoting is the power of God to change lives. Enough power even to change them for the better, as you have already personally testified. But where you choose to limit God to some ethereal unknown standard we choose to accept His authority and sovereign right to set His own standards and demand obedience. After all, He is our Creator and is entitled to expect certain minimum standards of moral behaviour. These standards He has set out in His law.

The doctrine of works of the law was referred to as leaven, by Jesus, in Matt 16:12.
And we are warned that a little leaven (doctrines of works of the law) leavens the whole lump, Gal 5:9.
We are told to purge out the old leaven, 1Cor 5:7

The law is also spoken of allegorically as Hagar, Gal 4:24.
And there are many warnings in scripture that we are to abstain from fornication/sexual immorality. These warnings refer to fornication with Hagar/the law.
1Cor 5:13 says we should "put away such wicked persons" who fornicate with Hagar/the law.

That is a personal reading of scripture which to be honest I find inexplicably astounding. That all warnings against fornication/adultery/ immorality refers to some spiritual regress to legalism?????!!!!! What about the warnings against theft? Lying? Idolatry? Covetousness? Witchcraft? Murder? Are these also 'spiritual' allegorical parables for something to be understood only by the more mature Christian? Are you a Gnostic Barny???

We cannot mix grace with works, Rom 11:6.

Oh yes we can Barny...works are only possible through the grace and mercy of an all wise and loving Saviour.

 

[papajim]

Unfortunately you see scriptures as a natural man would. I also used to do the same.
But scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14.

The lust of the world speaks of it's rebellion against God in not wanting to submit to His righteousness, and instead seeking to establish it's own righteousness through works of the law.
That doctrine you follow of grace mixed with works of the law is following the lusts of the world. It's fornication with Hagar/the law. Through this path your on you only make yourself a transgressor/Sinner, Gal 2:18.

You have heard the gospel of Christ. This is how you can overcome the world with it's lusts/fornication.
1Thess 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

Galatians 5: 16-18 "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit and Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary the one to the other; so that ye cannot "do" the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. That word "do" puts a hole in you doctrine. verse 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Ephe. 4:31,32 Let all biterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you with all malice:
Paul is talking about character here. If we only need the imputed righteousness of Christ why does Paul talk constantly about our Character, what we are, and are not to do? Here is a verse that talks about growing up into Christ. Paul is talking about spiritual gifts Eph.4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teacher; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ; Till we all come in the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to decieve; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things which is the head even Christ: Did you catch that last verse "may grow up into him in all things"
If we only need the imputed righteousness of Christ, why did Paul say "may grow up nto him in all things?" Isn't this talking about Christ imparted righteousness, isn't this being about us growing up into Christ?

Barny, the very fact that you have such great patients is a testimony that God is working in you to change you into His likeness.
Notice in Eph. 4:23 "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man which after God is created in rightousness and true holiness" Wherfore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour. and it continues to talk about character. Paul talks a great deal about the change that needs to take place in our Characters, or physical behavior.

 

[DHC]

Amen, agree with that wholeheartedly. The question remains however, for the Christian, the life we live in the physical realm does change for the better; this was promised by Jesus when He said we would bear good fruit, so how, why, and how far can we go? Do we limit what God can do for us, and why shouldn't our changed lives be in accordance with the law, seeing as how love is the law's fulfilment?

Hello brakelite, thank you for the reply.

It is with reservation that I will answer your questions.

This is a profound subject Brakelite, one that has never
really been addressed by the majority of theologies.
Nor, has it been treated by the theology that you adhere
to, which your questions seem to indicate.

I fear that not many will understand the implications
of the "death of the flesh".

I do believe that the topic of the "death of the flesh"
(the old man) in Christ, is the least understood topic
in all Christianity. It is also the chief reason for the
existence of the lukewarm Christian life style so
prevalent within Christianity worldwide.

If you do not mind brakelite, please read the following
verses;

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live,
but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh
I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself
up for me.

Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being
perfected by the flesh?

Galatians 5:16
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire
of the flesh.

Galatians 5:24
Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with
its passions and desires.

Colossians 2:11
and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made
without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the
circumcision of Christ;

1 John 3
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

These verses are very straight forward, there should be no trace
of the works of the flesh in any Christian. If you believe that a
Christian still sins, then read them again.

"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live,
but Christ lives in me;"

Notice Paul states "it is no longer I who live". Paul is not stating
that he has given up some particular sins and that he is growing
stronger as a Christian.

Paul is stating that "he died" as is required from anyone who
understands the implications of the Gospel.

Luke 14:26
26 “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother
and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life,
he cannot be My disciple.
27 Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
28 For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and
calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?

The flesh must die, no negotiation whether legal or otherwise is possible with the old man!

 

[spirit1st]

It our spirit , that is the old man , we put Off !It nailed to His cross ! We are then New Creatures ! It our Spirit that is the new creature ! We still have it evil thoughts in our flesh mind ! That why He tells us to renew our flesh mind ! Replace those evil thoughts with GOD living words !

2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Col_3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Eph_4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Rom_6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Joh_3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh_3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Eze_36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you:

Eze_11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you

Heb_12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

1Co_15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

It the Spirit Body He replaces at Salvation !
It our spirit that goes to heaven [New Jerusalem ] or Hell ?

Rom_8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Rom_1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son

 

[B-A-C]

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live,
but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh
I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself
up for me.

Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being
perfected by the flesh?

Galatians 5:16
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire
of the flesh.

Galatians 5:24
Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with
its passions and desires.

Colossians 2:11
and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made
without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the
circumcision of Christ;

1 John 3
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

These verses are very straight forward, there should be no trace
of the works of the flesh in any Christian. If you believe that a
Christian still sins, then read them again.

"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live,
but Christ lives in me;"

Notice Paul states "it is no longer I who live". Paul is not stating
that he has given up some particular sins and that he is growing
stronger as a Christian.

Paul is stating that "he died" as is required from anyone who
understands the implications of the Gospel.

Luke 14:26
26 “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother
and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life,
he cannot be My disciple.
27 Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
28 For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and
calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?

These are great verses.
Gal 2:17; "But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be!
Gal 2:18; "For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor.

Gal 2:20; "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
We still live in the flesh, but the question is... are you living for yourself and your desires? Or Christ and His desires? If it's no longer you who lives (for yourself) then you are crucified with Christ.

If we turn back to sin, we are transgressors.

Gal 5:16; But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
Apparently we still have the desire of the flesh after we are saved, but we shouldn't do those desires.

Gal 5:24; Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
This is a good way to tell if someone has been crucified with Christ. Are they still carrying out their fleshly passions and desires? If so, they aren't crucified yet.

1 Jn 3:4; Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
1 Jn 3:5; You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
1 Jn 3:6; No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
1 Jn 3:7; Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
1 Jn 3:8; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
We can be legalistic here and say we can't sin at all. Or there is some grace. But either way we are told not to sin anymore.

But hopefully there is grace.
1 Jn 1:8; If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1 Jn 1:9; If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 Jn 1:10; If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Rom 6:1; What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:15; What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

Salvation doesn't come by works of the law. But sin comes by disobeying the (new) law.

 

[spirit1st]

Our Beginning in the LO)RD is a Spiritual beginning ! He gives us a New Perfectly clean Spirit , that Cannot sin 1 Made like Jesus , our Lord and pattern for All of God perfect children !

Born again , born from above , Born of God and born of the Spirit is All Us being Born into God Family and Household ! A brand new spirit being ! God is a Spirit and each of us are New Spirit beings !

We are No longer counted as part of this planet ! Because we are Now part of His family and household Forever more! Only our spirit goes to New Jerusalem or Hell ?

Our flesh is Part of this world [made from the planet !

We are made [our new spirit] from GOd uncorruptable SEED !

1Pe_1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

That why ? Our New Spirit cannot sin , nor will it ever !

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

our flesh can sin and dies because of it ! We [our spirit] Never dies !
Joh_11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?







Joh_17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh_17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Eph_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph_2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


Eph_3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

1Pe_2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Royal is the Kingdom of GOD ! We are heirs with our LORD JESUS CHRIST !

Rom_8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Because at Salvation we are made just like HIM !
1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Gal_4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
We get His perfect type mind and nature at Salvation , In the New Creature He makes us all !

1Co_2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

2Pe_1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

1Co_15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Our flesh body is made like the first Adam , and dies because of it !
Our spirit body is made like vthe Last adam Jesus Christ ! And never dies because of it ! We who are Born of God are all quickening spirit beings 1 Like our Example and Lord Jesus Christ !

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Eph_4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

God wanted a Family , made Just like our Lord Jesus , to Share His Vast Kingdom with !

Rev_1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev_5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Eph_2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

We are All Now part of His family 1 Those who have left there weak flesh and those who still dwell in it !
Eph_3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

 

[Barny]

Okay, lets stop there for a moment. You admit God has changed your life for the better, praise God. That is sure evidence of faith on your part, and a desire for a better life.

If you claim good behavior is evidence of faith then that would imply others, such as Atheists, Agnostics and those who follow false gods, who have good behavior, likewise have that same faith.
Clearly this is an incorrect way to determine evidence of faith.

As I have mentioned to a couple of others here also, you focus so much on physical behavior that you fail to see spiritual truth.

What evidence/works shows our faith?
Jesus said our works are to believe in him, John 6:29.

Now I am not perfect either. As a matter of fact, it sometimes seems to me that the closer I get to Jesus the more aware I am of my failings. But I choose not to limit God in His dealings with me. I am convinced that the reason I am aware of my shortcomings is for the specific reason that I might submit them to God and allow Him to deal with them. It will always remain my choice whether I wish to retain them or not, but will always be outside of my personal capabilities to do anything with them They are part of my character and have been since whenever. Only God can change me, yet it remains my choice how far I let Him go. Sometimes it hurts, to be parted from certain traits and habits of a lifetime. But if God says they gotta go for me to grow and mature then go they must. This is sanctification. And it will last a lifetime.
I refuse to limit God on what He is capable of. He can do anything He likes with me, I hold nothing back and am convinced that whatever He does is for my good. I also see no reason to doubt that eventually, if I am true to my faith, I will someday be as Paul promises the bride will be: unblemished and without spot.

We agree that we're not perfect in the physical.
We also agree that only God can change us as we do not have to ability to do so.

But, we differ in that scripture says we have been sanctified/unblemished already. There is no further process of sanctification, etc, after that.
Heb 10:10
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

It's unwise to contradict God's word and claim that Christ's sacrifice failed to fully sanctify believers.

No-one, neither Papajim or I, have claimed the Ten Commandments as our means of gaining righteousness. In fact exactly the opposite, rather what we have been consytantly promoting is the power of God to change lives. Enough power even to change them for the better, as you have already personally testified. But where you choose to limit God to some ethereal unknown standard we choose to accept His authority and sovereign right to set His own standards and demand obedience. After all, He is our Creator and is entitled to expect certain minimum standards of moral behaviour. These standards He has set out in His law.

As I've mentioned in previous posts, although the doctrine you follow is not directly saying salvation by works of the law, the very fact that you judge righteousness by it shows that it's a doctrine of righteousness by works of the law.

As I've said often, the doctrine you and a few others here follow is a mix of grace with works of the law. This is a lukewarm doctrine that God rejects, Rev 3:16. You cannot mix grace with works, Rom 11:6.

I am curious what you think is the minimum standard of moral behavior that God expects as evidence of faith?
Can you provide scripture confirming what this minimum standard of physical behavior is?

If the doctrine you follow is true, then this is a very important question that needs scriptural answers to outline exactly what level of obedience is required.
I have never been able to get any answer to this question from anyone so far.

That is a personal reading of scripture which to be honest I find inexplicably astounding. That all warnings against fornication/adultery/ immorality refers to some spiritual regress to legalism?????!!!!! What about the warnings against theft? Lying? Idolatry? Covetousness? Witchcraft? Murder? Are these also 'spiritual' allegorical parables for something to be understood only by the more mature Christian? Are you a Gnostic Barny???

I know little about Gnosticism and have no interest to search it, nor any other religious group, out. God has given us His word and the anointing within us teaches us all things, 1John 2:27.

As for fornication, murder, lying, etc, etc they are all spiritual.
I focused on the issue of spiritual fornication with Hagar/the law as it's the most relevant to our discussion.

Again, I suggest you don't read scripture as a natural man would. The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, 1Cor 2:14.
It is spiritually discerned.

 

[DHC]

I know little about Gnosticism and have no interest to search it, nor any other religious group, out.
God has given us His word and the anointing within us teaches us all things, 1 John 2:27

Hello Barny, I am not sure what brakelite means with the "Gnosticism" tag.

A definition of Gnosticism follows;

These two beliefs clash strongly with accepted Christian doctrine.
Christianity teaches that salvation is available to everyone, not just a special few,
and that it comes from grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9),
and not from study or works.

The only source of truth is the Bible and the Holy Spirit, Christianity asserts.
Gnostics were divided on Jesus. One view held that he only appeared to have
human form but that he was actually spirit only. The other view contended that
his divine spirit came upon his human body at baptism and departed before the crucifixion.

Christianity, on the other hand, holds that Jesus was fully man and fully God and that his human
and divine natures were both present and necessary to provide a perfect sacrifice for humanity's sin.

I see no connection at all, the Gnostics were heretics.

 

[james1523]

Gnosticism is a dualist belief that the material world should be shunned and the spiritual world should be embraced. Barny's comments such as "As for fornication, murder, lying, etc, etc they are all spiritual." lean towards Gnosticism... as is the denial of sin in the believer because of a perfect and sinless spirit... but neglecting the material side of "sin in the flesh". The Christian view embraces both the spiritual and physical worlds, and does not deny sin in the flesh. The Christian view is not flesh versus spirit, but spirit in and joined to body of flesh.