Why Hebrews?

[B-A-C]

The written word of God is the means (not the life force) by which the Spirit of God (which is the life force) "quickens" what it discloses. This is what is meant by "they are spirit, and they are life" (John 6:63; also Pro 4:22).

This is just something we will have to disagree on.
There is power in the written word. Power to change lives. It may be through the Spirit, but the Spirit without the word to test it, could be any spirit.
The Holy Spirit never disagrees with the word.

James 1:21; Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.

People reading the Bible have accepted Christ by reading it. Lives have been changed by the Bible. The Bible reveals the character of God.
Jesus = The Word (a title) = the word (the Bible) = the divine revelation of God.
Can atheists read the Bible? sure. Even Satan knows the Bible. But where does faith come from? Rom 10:17; The Spirit comes after we are saved.
Did Jesus tell us to go forth preaching the Spirit? No, he told us to go forth preaching the word! Mark 16:15; Matt 28:19-20;

 

[NetChaplain]

This is just something we will have to disagree on.

Yes, which is okay of-course.

The written word is lifeless apart from the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, so one reading or hearing it apart from God is lifeless. because it is God who gives the written word life, but only in believers, for faith is evidence of God within one who has faith.

 

[DHC]

Do not murder + do not lie + do not steal + do not commit adultery = love.

Hello B-A-C.

I always look forward to your replies because I never know what I will get.

Do not murder + do not lie + do not steal + do not commit adultery = love.

A simple mathematical equation, feed the law in one end, and out the other
end is love. All through church history love has been in short supply. Only
because they never had the grand, unifying equation of love. We need to
design a time machine, throw B-A-C in and send him back 1700 years.

Anyway back to the equation of love.

Do not lie and you love little. Do not lie and do not steal and you love a
little bit more. This is a sequence folks, shall we continue. Do not lie,
do not steal and commit the sin of adultery and puff. Love does not come
out the other end of the equation, only your ashes come out.

Let's ask for forgiveness and persevere.

Do not lie, puff, I did not even get past go that time, no love.

Let's ask for forgiveness and we must persevere.

Do not lie and you love little. Do not lie and do not steal, puff, not again,
it was just a mere thought of stealing. Sorry no love.

This equation is an endless sequence of disobedience and never love.

Let's not ask for forgiveness and ask God what the real problem is.

We do not dwell on the written law because God has abundantly supplied
more than we could imagine. Through His presence within and this is the
true divine equation that He has supplied.

Matthew 11:30
For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.

Is not a progressive sequence of ever climbing obedience to written law.
It has always been the simple Gospel of Jesus Christ and the sanctification
that the Holy Spirit exudes. Which produces love on the right hand side.

I repeat that works of the law or the attempted obedience to written law
will not produce love. The outcome is only ever more disobedience and
an even deeper knowledge of sin. Anxiety and frustration is the only fruit
derived from the law.

The law is holy but we are not holy. Our flesh is the culprit and legal obedience
does not treat the problem. Death to our flesh and life in the Spirit.

May I suggest an improvement to the equation with the introduction of more
variables on the left hand side.

[Do nots (O.T) moral laws > 20] + Grace + [Do nots (N.T) moral laws >100]
+ a host of other (O.T) instructions + prayer + church meetings + evangelism
+ prayer for unknown sins = not enough time in a day to bother with holiness.

 

[B-A-C]

@DHC

Lets say you have two friends.
One of them constantly lies to you. He steals from you. You just found out he is having an affair with your wife (I don't know if you're married, this is an illustration). Now you found out he is in love with your wife and he wants to kill you.

Do you feel loved by him? Even though he is stealing from you, attempting to murder you, telling people lies about you, and committing adultery against you?

The other friend, is honest with you, prays for you. Isn't stealing from you, or trying to kill you. He is concerned for you, and gives you encouragement.

Do you feel loved by him?

 

[Barny]

@DHC
Lets say you have two friends.
One of them constantly lies to you. He steals from you. You just found out he is having an affair with your wife (I don't know if you're married, this is an illustration). Now you found out he is in love with your wife and he wants to kill you.

Do you feel loved by him? Even though he is stealing from you, attempting to murder you, telling people lies about you, and committing adultery against you??

This scenario you describe reminds me of King David and his adultery/murder/deceit.
how did God respond?

He disciplined David because He loved him.

B-A-C, you seem to be taking a stance very different than what God did with king David. The doctrine you follow preaches judgement/condemnation to anyone who does not obey the law ( just like the Pharisees did).

And what I find especially confusing about the doctrine you follow is that it demands some ambiguous/vague minimum standard of obedience to the law as proof that one has "imparted" righteousness and is saved.

 

[B-A-C]

This scenario you describe reminds me of King David and his adultery/murder/deceit.
how did God respond?

He disciplined David because He loved him.

B-A-C, you seem to be taking a stance very different than what God did with king David. The doctrine you follow preaches judgement/condemnation to anyone who does not obey the law ( just like the Pharisees did).

No, I believe you can be forgiven, just like David was after he repented ( Psalms 51; ) There were some prices to pay, for example he lost the baby from his affair.
Still, the questions remains.. do you think David was showing Uzziah love when he was sleeping with his wife and eventually had him killed?

 

[DHC]

@DHC

Lets say you have two friends.
One of them constantly lies to you. He steals from you. You just found out he is having an affair with your wife (I don't know if you're married, this is an illustration). Now you found out he is in love with your wife and he wants to kill you.

Do you feel loved by him? Even though he is stealing from you, attempting to murder you, telling people lies about you, and committing adultery against you?

The other friend, is honest with you, prays for you. Isn't stealing from you, or trying to kill you. He is concerned for you, and gives you encouragement.

Do you feel loved by him?

Hello B-A-C.

I have some other pressing tasks to attend to and will reply soon.

Thanks B-A-C.

 

[eastern gentile]

Greetings to you all gentlemen. May i be allowed to post-in to your informative discussions?

I love what you are sharing in this thread. I for one likes the Letter to the Hebrews. Though i am a gentile, i find many writings in the Letter to very encouraging, and those writings are helping me in growing my faith.

Please correct me if i am wrong, because I was just a little bit lost already as i read on thru the tread because your sharings about the Hebrews are not there anymore. Probably because more writings from other Letters and from the Old Testament were sighted... But i cannot help to say that i am learning from your discussions. Thank you gentlemen

 

[Barny]

No, I believe you can be forgiven, just like David was after he repented ( Psalms 51; ) There were some prices to pay, for example he lost the baby from his affair.

Agreed.

Still, the questions remains.. do you think David was showing Uzziah love when he was sleeping with his wife and eventually had him killed?

Obviously David was not showing love.

And in this imperfect physical world even our best efforts can come across wrongly to others. All the more reason we love one another, forgiving 7x70.

But, B-A-C, we both know that your point is really aiming at the keeping of law (10 commandments) as evidence of "ïmparted" righteousness and salvation. And this is what we differ so often on. I see the doctrine you follow as being a lukewarm mix of grace with works of the law. God rejects such lukewarm doctrines and calls on those who follow such to repent, Rev 3:15-19.

 

[Barny]

Hi eastern gentile

Welcome to Talk Jesus forum. You'll find a variety of views being shared on forums like this one. But importantly forums can help you because they encourage you to study scriptures.

Greetings to you all gentlemen. May i be allowed to post-in to your informative discussions?

I love what you are sharing in this thread. I for one likes the Letter to the Hebrews. Though i am a gentile, i find many writings in the Letter to very encouraging, and those writings are helping me in growing my faith.

I assume from what you have described about yourself that you are young Christian. Is that correct?

Although there are many of us here who may sound like we understand scriptures, I suggest that you trust only in Jesus for teaching and understanding. We may be sharing with each other about scriptures, but really it's the spirit within us that gives us the understanding.

Consider 1John 2:27
But the anointing (Christ in us) which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

None of us are teachers. Only Jesus is our teacher.
Matt 23:8
do not be called ‘Rabbi’ (teacher) ; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.

You described yourself as a Gentile. Can I suggest you consider scripture to see that Christians are not Gentiles. We are actually spiritual Jews.
Rom 2:28,29
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Consider also Gal 2:15
We (Christians) who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles

Please correct me if i am wrong, because I was just a little bit lost already as i read on thru the tread because your sharings about the Hebrews are not there anymore. Probably because more writings from other Letters and from the Old Testament were sighted... But i cannot help to say that i am learning from your discussions. Thank you gentlemen

Often the topic subject can include other discussions on related scriptures. So even though this topic is on Hebrews, it will include other related subjects as well. This is common on all forums.

 

[B-A-C]

But, B-A-C, we both know that your point is really aiming at the keeping of law (10 commandments) as evidence of "ïmparted" righteousness and salvation. And this is what we differ so often on. I see the doctrine you follow as being a lukewarm mix of grace with works of the law. God rejects such lukewarm doctrines and calls on those who follow such to repent, Rev 3:15-19.

We definitely differ on this. However, I do not believe obeying the commandments makes us "righteous". If it did why would we need Jesus.
They are simply something we are told to do. Especially loving one another.

John 13:34-35; John 15:12; John 15:17; Rom 12:10; Rom 13:8; 1 Thes 4:9; 1 Jn 3:11; 1 Jn 4:7;
2 Jn 1:5; Which really isn't a new commandment.

God may reject lukewarmness ( Rev 3:16; ) if we don't love Him with all our heart, mind, soul and strength.
but he also rejects lawlessness. Matt 7:23; Matt 13:41; Matt 23:28; 2 Cor 6:14; 1 Jn 3:4; Heb 1:9;

We both believe God forgives sin. We differ on what sin is.
We both believe God forgives sin. A seeming difference is that believe repentance is also required for forgiveness.

Obeying the commandments may not get you to heaven, but breaking them can keep you out.

 

[Barny]

Obeying the commandments may not get you to heaven, but breaking them can keep you out.

Note your contradiction above.
You say that salvation does not come by obedience to the law, but then you say that without obedience to the law we will not be saved.

 

[Barny]

but he also rejects lawlessness. Matt 7:23; Matt 13:41; Matt 23:28; 2 Cor 6:14; 1 Jn 3:4; Heb 1:9;

and lawlessness is a charge that ONLY applies to those under the law.
Rom 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, IT SAITH TO THEM UNDER THE LAW

for example we see that some here, yourself included, preach the law, mixing it with grace. This then brings you under the law, as you cannot mix grace with works of the law, Rom 11:6.
And as you do not keep it perfectly then that means Satan, the accuser, can charge you with lawlessness (sin).

But, we see in scripture that Christians are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9. Hence Christians cannot be charged with lawlessness (sin)..

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay ANY THING (which includes "sin") to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

We both believe God forgives sin. We differ on what sin is.
We both believe God forgives sin. A seeming difference is that believe repentance is also required for forgiveness.

I suspect we may not differ that much on what "sin" is. But we certainly do differ on who can be charged with "sin".

As for repentance, yes we do differ on this.
Scripture tells us that repentance was from dead works of self-righteousness and that it was a ONCE ONLY thing.

Heb 6:1-6
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of REPENTANCE FROM DEAD WORKS and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits.

For IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, IF THEY FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN TO REPENTANCE, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

 

[eastern gentile]

Although there are many of us here who may sound like we understand scriptures, I suggest that you trust only in Jesus for teaching and understanding. We may be sharing with each other about scriptures, but really it's the spirit within us that gives us the understanding.

Thank you Barny

Aside from I reading the bible, I do need to listen and read from the ideas and sharing of others who are gifted with better understanding of the scriptures. Probably because english is not my first language, and my understanding might be different. God and the Holy Spirit guides in mysterious way as they say.

Go on with your lively discussions gentlemen, i will just read on them

 

[Barny]

Thank you Barny

Aside from I reading the bible, I do need to listen and read from the ideas and sharing of others who are gifted with better understanding of the scriptures. Probably because english is not my first language, and my understanding might be different. God and the Holy Spirit guides in mysterious way as they say.

Go on with your lively discussions gentlemen, i will just read on them

Hi eastern gentile,

Always remember that Jesus is your only teacher. So whatever you read here in forums you should always study the scriptures to see if what is being said here is true or not.

Often the debates that you will see on forums will be about whether Christians should be judged by the law or not.

A scripture to note on such topics is Rom 11:6.
if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

This verse is showing that eternal life is either by works of the law OR by grace. In other words we cannot mix these two.

The Bible gives many warnings against turning to the law in determining your righteousness.
Always remember that as Christians we are saved by grace, and not by deeds of the law.

The sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.
And anybody who turns to the law to determine righteousness, or anybody who even mixes grace with works of the law, such people are in unbelief.

 

[NoHype]

Hi Brother - Again, the theme of the article does not concern the coming of Christ, which was first foretold in Genesis 3:15, but the indwelling of Christ in believers (Church), which is nowhere mentioned prior to His coming (Col 1:27). This will be the difference in the blessings of saved Israel and the saved Church (John 20:29).

The OT prophecies of Christ's coming concerned His deliverance from sin for His people, and though this involves the indwelling of one another, this "mystery" was not revealed in the OT. This is why Paul terms it a mystery--not yet revealed.

Then you intentionally miss what the Hebrews 10 quote and subject of Jeremiah 31 is about, just so you can keep your own tradition created by some man.

B-A-C:
We need to face that some here have missed study in the Old Testament Books so much that they don't recognize when the New Testament writers were quoting from the Old Testament, and actually explaining what that Old Testament Scripture meant. I know this ignorance exists in many Churches today by men who try to preach that everything written in the Old Testament Books is dead and all past history, which is where a lot of that wrongful attitude towards God's Holy Writ comes from.

 

[NetChaplain]

subject of Jeremiah 31

Hi NH - The difference we have here, which leads to other numerous differences, is that my belief is that Israel is not the Church and visa verso, and it being a foundation-truth concerning Israel disallows anything secure to debating concerning this issue.

God's blessings To Your Family!

 

[B-A-C]

Israel may not be the church, and the church may not be Israel, but I don't think it's about who Israel is, I think it's about who God's people are.
Are only Jews God's people?

 

[NetChaplain]

Israel may not be the church, and the church may not be Israel, but I don't think it's about who Israel is, I think it's about who God's people are.

Hi BAC - God has blessings awaiting Israel and of-course the Church, but for this life, the more we understand spiritual growth truths, the more we will understand the remnant of Scripture, and the more we we can be used.

Are only Jews God's people?

The obedient Jews who were in the Law (those who believed in God) were the true people of God, but not in the same relationship as the saved Jew and Gentile in Christ.

 

[B-A-C]

Why Hebrews indeed.

I find it interesting that many Gentiles were called God's people in the Old testament. Ruth for example was a Moabite ( Ruth 1:4; )
God sent Jonah to Ninevah (an Assyrian city) to get them to repent ( Jonah 3, Matt 12:41; Luke 11:32; )

Even today Judaism is prevalent in some places. There are still orthodox Jews, there are still Jewish priests. Some even still practice
animal sacrifice as they are waiting for their Messiah to appear. To these people, of course there is no New Testament of the Bible,
there is no Jesus (or if there was, he doesn't mean anything to them).

Adam wasn't Jewish. Cain and Abel, neither were Jewish but they made sacrifice offerings to God.
How about Noah? Rahab? How about Lot? Was Melchizedek a Jew? How about Enoch (who walked with God)?

In Old testament times, Gentiles could become Jews, however to prove your faith, you had to be physically circumcised.
You were expected to obey the law and commandments. If you sinned you were expected to do the sacrifice/priest thing.
Now, you may not have been able to biologically become a Jew, but you could become one Spiritually.

Circumcision also is still practiced among most followers of Judaism today. (for both Jews and Gentiles)