Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

[Curtis]

Faith is actually not needed at all,only a revelation that that offers the option of turning or repenting an believing on the one whom God sent.
The apostle Paul did not need faith because Jesus revealed himself directly to Paul.
Believing on the one whom God sent is repentance.

Jesus is the foundation,not faith,not repentance,not works.
Accepting that foundation once it is revealed is a one time thing.
It's not about us at all,it's about accepting that which was already done for us.
Otherwise you will spend your life trying to lay your own foundation.

Believing is faith! Without faith no man can please God, nor can any man be saved. We are saved ",by grace through faith". No faith = no salvation!! No faith = no revelation!!
The Apostle Paul heard the Gospel, which brings faith as he was right there when "Steven" was stoned to death, and with many others that he persecuted.
If Jesus is the foundation, then who is Jesus? The Word of God. What does the Word do? It brings faith.
Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Hi, ThisCross. Are you saying believing or trusting in who Jesus is and what he did is not faith?

No,
The gift or foundation is seen by faith or revelation which is also given by God.
Paul was convinced of the supremacy of Jesus by direct confrontation through revelation.
Saul/Paul believed and changed his mind after being confronted.
He repented of his way of thinking and decided to follow instructions.

No other foundation can any man lay,it is seeing that foundation that provides the option of repenting or believing on the one whom God sent.

But even after encountering Jesus on the road to Damascus, Paul was blind. It wasn't until he went to visit Ananias that he was given "eyes to see".

Saul was quite convinced that it was the Lord but had to inquire who he was.
Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
After that Saul asked no more questions,he was convinced that Jesus was Lord.
He didn't need eyes to see that.

There are works and repentances to do afterwards but they are not the foundation.
Jesus Christ is the foundation thinking you can do anything but accept what was already done
would be to build your own foundation and reject the one already finished.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
1 Corinthians 3:13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.

We can build on that foundation and what we build will be tested.
1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

We are accepted into the family of God by accepting the foundation.
Our works after that is the building that we build.so we can suffer loss yet be saved.

 

[amadeus2]

No,
The gift or foundation is seen by faith or revelation which is also given by God.
Paul was convinced of the supremacy of Jesus by direct confrontation through revelation.
Saul/Paul believed and changed his mind after being confronted.
He repented of his way of thinking and decided to follow instructions.

No other foundation can any man lay,it is seeing that foundation that provides the option of repenting or believing on the one whom God sent.


Saul was quite convinced that it was the Lord but had to inquire who he was.
Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
After that Saul asked no more questions,he was convinced that Jesus was Lord.
He didn't need eyes to see that.

We see "through a glass darkly". That included Paul until he became able (if he did) to see face to face. Yes, Paul recognized Jesus, but he still had a lot to learn and so do we who are not yet able to see "face to face"

There are works and repentances to do afterwards but they are not the foundation.
Jesus Christ is the foundation thinking you can do anything but accept what was already done
would be to build your own foundation and reject the one already finished.

Yes, Jesus is the foundation, but who understands or even continuously acknowledges that own foundation so well? Any blind man?

We are accepted into the family of God by accepting the foundation.
Our works after that is the building that we build.so we can suffer loss yet be saved.

If the correct foundation (Jesus) is rejected, what will be saved? Can a man rejected the foundation after it is built?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Believing is faith! Without faith no man can please God, nor can any man be saved. We are saved ",by grace through faith". No faith = no salvation!! No faith = no revelation!!

Believing does not require faith because you can believe in something you see.
Pleasing God does require faith but Saul/ Paul believed because of a revelation.
He would have plenty of opportunity to use faith in his walk though.
Paul was saved by Jesus the Lamb of God from before the foundation of the world.
That foundation which is Jesus Christ was already laid.

It's the grace that saves,it is faith that provides the option to repent(turn again)
and believe on the one whom God sent or the foundation which is Jesus Christ.
The grace put the foundation in place not our acceptance of it.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

We see "through a glass darkly". That included Paul until he became able (if he did) to see face to face. Yes, Paul recognized Jesus, but he still had a lot to learn and so do we who are not yet able to see "face to face"

Paul did not recognize Jesus,he recognized the Lord.
The Lord revealed his name to Paul.
Paul called him Lord even though he did not know who Lord was.

Remember there were ones who called Jesus Lord but did not know him and the ones who did not know Jesus but clothed him and visited him in prison.
Every one who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Paul called him Lord by revelation we call him Lord by faith.

Yes, Jesus is the foundation, but who understands or even continuously acknowledges that own foundation so well? Any blind man?

I don't understand the question.

I'm acknowledging it right now.

 

[Curtis]

Believing does not require faith because you can believe in something you see.
Pleasing God does require faith but Saul/ Paul believed because of a revelation.
He would have plenty of opportunity to use faith in his walk though.
Paul was saved by Jesus the Lamb of God from before the foundation of the world.
That foundation which is Jesus Christ was already laid.

It's the grace that saves,it is faith that provides the option to repent(turn again)
and believe on the one whom God sent or the foundation which is Jesus Christ.
The grace put the foundation in place not our acceptance of it.

The word "believe" in these scriptures means, "to have faith" How does "faith come" By hearing the Word of
God!!(Romans 10:17) Nobody can be saved without "first" hearing the Word of God!

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

What exactly is the means in how salvation comes"

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

The word "believe" in these scriptures means, "to have faith" How does "faith come" By hearing the Word of
God!!(Romans 10:17) Nobody can be saved without "first" hearing the Word of God!

Yes,we need faith because we can't see so in this particular verse faith would be required.
Jesus told his disciples that they believed because they saw,then he said blessed is he who does not see yet believes.
So we who have to believe by faith are blessed.
I assume the apostles were saved but they were shown the foundation without faith being involved.

 

[Curtis]

Yes,we need faith because we can't see so in this particular verse faith would be required.
Jesus told his disciples that they believed because they saw,then he said blessed is he who does not see yet believes.
So we who have to believe by faith are blessed.
I assume the apostles were saved but they were shown the foundation without faith being involved.

Brother, even though the Apostles walked with Jesus, and saw him, they still needed faith to be absolutely sure Jesus was who he said he was.
Jesus asked his Apostles, "who do you say the Son of man is?" Peter said, "your are the Christ, the Son of the living God"

Math 16:15.. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Math 16:16.. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Math 16:17.. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Math 16:18.. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Even the Apostles needed this "revelation" which only God can give through the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said, "flesh, and blood has not revealed this to you but my Father in Heaven" So no amount of physical sight can give this kind information to a person.
This is the only revelation that can cause a person to confess from the heart that "Jesus Christ is Lord". This is the "Rock" Jesus said he would build his Church upon.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Even the Apostles needed this "revelation" which only God can give through the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said, "flesh, and blood has not revealed this to you but my Father in Heaven" So no amount of physical sight can give this kind information to a person.
This is the only revelation that can cause a person to confess from the heart that "Jesus Christ is Lord". This is the "Rock" Jesus said he would build his Church upon.

Yes,a revelation,that's what I'm saying-faith reveals and yes faith comes by hearing.
I can't quite figure out what you disagree with.
But It's Jesus the foundation that saves,not faith,not revelation.
Yes I know they could not be saved without a revelation.
How that revelation comes is not as important as the revelation itself.

 

[Curtis]

Yes,a revelation,that's what I'm saying-faith reveals and yes faith comes by hearing.
I can't quite figure out what you disagree with.
But It's Jesus the foundation that saves,not faith,not revelation.
Yes I know they could not be saved without a revelation.
How that revelation comes is not as important as the revelation itself.

We can not separate Jesus, from faith, or revelation, because faith comes by Jesus (the Word) and that Word gives us revelation as the scripture says. "the entrance of his word gives light". Without light there can be no revelation. It is light that allows us to see revelation.

Psa 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

We can not separate Jesus, from faith, or revelation, because faith comes by Jesus (the Word) and that Word gives us revelation as the scripture says. "the entrance of his word gives light". Without light there can be no revelation. It is light that allows us to see revelation.

Of course,I did not mean to imply any different.
Jesus is however above all things and temporary things will eventually be done away with so in that sense Jesus is eternal and made those other things so it's no stretch to evaluate the creator as different from the creation.

 

[amadeus2]

Believing does not require faith because you can believe in something you see.

And a person can have faith that is not in and toward God.

Pleasing God does require faith but Saul/ Paul believed because of a revelation.

You want to separate faith from God from belief in God? So be it, but I will bow out of that conversation.

Paul was saved by Jesus the Lamb of God from before the foundation of the world.

And if Paul's world was founded when he was formed in his mother's womb, that was quite a bit after the events in Genesis, wasn't it?

That foundation which is Jesus Christ was already laid.

It's the grace that saves,it is faith that provides the option to repent(turn again)

And if we are unrepentant then we cannot be saved, right?

and believe on the one whom God sent or the foundation which is Jesus Christ.
The grace put the foundation in place not our acceptance of it.

Or maybe the foundation of which you speak was already in place and each of us need to be on it!

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Or maybe the foundation of which you speak was already in place and each of us need to be on it!

That's what I have been saying but I like the way you put that.

And if we are unrepentant then we cannot be saved, right?

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.”

3340 metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think") – properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards").
Believing in the one whom God sent is thinking differently after being confronted with an option.
People who believe will act as though they believe.

You want to separate faith from God from belief in God? So be it, but I will bow out of that conversation.

God is God,of course I have to walk by faith and believe on the one whom God sent.
It depends on how you want to look at it.
I can see them as separate things that work in synergy in this time and space environment.
I personally have no way to separate them.

And a person can have faith that is not in and toward God.

Obviously,Atheists do it all the time.

 

[amadeus2]

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.”

3340 metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think") – properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards").
Believing in the one whom God sent is thinking differently after being confronted with an option.
People who believe will act as though they believe.

With regard to the things in which they believe, yes. But, with regard to other things, not so.

God is God,of course I have to walk by faith and believe on the one whom God sent.
It depends on how you want to look at it.
I can see them as separate things that work in synergy in this time and space environment.
I personally have no way to separate them.

Then there is nothing to discuss. I don't separate them.

Obviously,Atheists do it all the time.

Atheists and other unbelievers and probably too many believers have faith in things that is not in and toward God. Only a believer who has already overcome completely as Jesus overcame completely will not have faith in or toward other things.

 

[Spockrates]

To All Who Participated:

Thank you so much for helping me think the meaning of this biblical passage through:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

(Ephesians 2:8-10)​

What I've learned from your thoughtful comments:

1. Faith is not the only condition I must meet to be saved
2. Peter, Paul and Jesus tell us repentance is another condition
3. There may be other conditions, as well
4. Therefore, Ephesians does not tell us everything we must do to be saved
5. Hence, we are saved by grace alone, but never through faith alone

 

[Travis]

Hence, we are saved by grace alone, but never through faith alone

This day will go down in history.

And thus the Protestant reformation was officially overturned. As simple as that.

 

[Spockrates]

This day will go down in history.

And thus the Protestant reformation was officially overturned. As simple as that.

Travis:

LOL! I appreciate the good humor, but are you certain Luther, Calvin and Wesley would disagree?

 

[Travis]

LOL! I appreciate the good humor, but are you certain Luther, Calvin and Wesley would disagree?

5660009768555555.9990% sure

In fact, I couldn't be more sure. I can't even possibly fathom how you could think they would agree with you.

That probably comes off as a bit strong….. but, I guess in a sense it should.

Luther would probably nail you to the castle church door in Wittenberg if you accused him to his face of not saying what he most assuredly said, Sola Fide that is. He would do so in the most loving and Christian manner possible though, making sure none of the nails were rusty or anything so you wouldn't get tetanus.

Blessings,

Travis

 

[Spockrates]

I hope you will agree the question is worth answering. If you do, I think the best way to persue is to consider (2).

Peter, Paul and Jesus tell us repentance is another condition one must meet to be saved.​

I mean, if this premise is untrue, then conclusions (5) and (6) are not proven. So are you willing to look at the biblical passages regarding (2)? Perhaps I missed something.

 

[Spockrates]

5660009768555555.9990% sure

In fact, I couldn't be more sure. I can't even possibly fathom how you could think they would agree with you.

That probably comes off as a bit strong….. but, I guess in a sense it should.

Luther would probably nail you to the castle church door in Wittenberg if you accused him to his face of not saying what he most assuredly said, Sola Fide that is. He would do so in the most loving and Christian manner possible though, making sure none of the nails were rusty or anything so you wouldn't get tetanus.

Blessings,

Travis

Socrates said, "A wise man is not likely to talk nonsense. Let us try to understand him." I think in this case it is wise counsel for me, personally.

I mean, if Luther or some other wise man if God did not believe repentance is a requirement for salvation, then one of these must be true:

• I must be misunderstanding scripture and the Word of God does not teach repentance is required to be saved, or
• You must be misunderstanding Luther and he did believe repentance is required to be saved, or
• You are not misunderstanding Luther and I am not misunderstanding scripture, so on this one point, Luther was mistaken

I'm certainly willing to consider the first probability, if you are willing to discuss it with me. Would you like to explain the meaning of the three brief biblical passages I discovered?