Hierarchy & Unity premise

[Ivar]

Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

@JesusIs4Me
Thank you for the clarification and I believe I know how to address you; But before I do, did you ask me any questions specifically that I have not answered?
Sometimes is hard for me to discern a question when wrapped in an explanations prior to the question.

Sorry for that. I believe it was a rhetorical question in leading to those explanations if I had done that prior.

I do not recall any question that I had asked you that was not answered.

If I had not directly answered your question by giving an explanation, from which I believed I was, feel free to ask again, and sorry if my explanation was not found as answering your question.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

@JesusIs4Me
also I want to mention that I do not disagree with this scripture concerning The Son "in case it comes up"

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Good to see the Lord is ministering. As all things are made by the Creator, Peter refers to Jesus being that Creator when the time comes when God judges His House first at the pre great trib rapture event as per 1 Peter 4:17-19 KJV

Seeing how the Father judges no man but renders all judgments unto the Son; John 5:22 KJV then we can see how we are not to use that verse as signifying the denial of the Father as deity, but recognizing the Father's will in that matter for His Son to judge as God. That is why the standard of judgment over every believer is to honor the Father by honoring the Son and when they are not honoring God the Son, they are not honoring God the Father at all. John 5:23 KJV

 

[Ivar]

Sorry for that. I believe it was a rhetorical question in leading to those explanations if I had done that prior.

I do not recall any question that I had asked you that was not answered.

If I had not directly answered your question by giving an explanation, from which I believed I was, feel free to ask again, and sorry if my explanation was not found as answering your question.

@JesusIs4Me
cool I just wanted to make sure.

My question to you now is;

1. What is the understanding of this scripture?
2. What does firstborn of all creation or every creature mean?

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

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[JesusIs4Me]

Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Just another example how it is the Father's will that shall be done, but in no way does that mean denying the deity of Christ Jesus as the Son of God and thus God.

 

[Ivar]

Good to see the Lord is ministering. As all things are made by the Creator, Peter refers to Jesus being that Creator when the time comes when God judges His House first at the pre great trib rapture event as per 1 Peter 4:17-19 KJV

Seeing how the Father judges no man but renders all judgments unto the Son; John 5:22 KJV then we can see how we are not to use that verse as signifying the denial of the Father as deity, but recognizing the Father's will in that matter for His Son to judge as God. That is why the standard of judgment over every believer is to honor the Father by honoring the Son and when they are not honoring God the Son, they are not honoring God the Father at all. John 5:23 KJV

@JesusIs4Me

I read 1 Peter 4:17-19 KJV and see no mention of Jesus being the Creator.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

@JesusIs4Me
cool I just wanted to make sure.

My question to you now is;

1. What is the understanding of this scripture?
2. What does firstborn of all creation or every creature mean?

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

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Invisible means not presently seen at this time. One can confirm that in another scripture for which invisible was applied to the King of kings, Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

In verse 17 in the KJV above, invisible, King, and God all are given to Jesus Christ.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

@JesusIs4Me

I read 1 Peter 4:17-19 KJV and see no mention of Jesus being the Creator.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

This being expounded upon from John 1st chapter about the Son being the Creator as nothing was made without Him, remember?

And if you take John 6:39-40 KJV in how the Lord will keep all the Father has given Him and lose nothing... then that is how I read that truth in 1 Peter 4:19 as Jesus being the faithful Creator that keeps our souls

 

[Ivar]

Invisible means not presently seen at this time. One can confirm that in another scripture for which invisible was applied to the King of kings, Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

In verse 17 in the KJV above, invisible, King, and God all are given to Jesus Christ.

@JesusIs4Me
The main answer I wanted to get from you is from
2. What does firstborn of all creation or every creature mean?
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Also
Joh_1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
1Jn_4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1Ti_1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Ivar]

This being expounded upon from John 1st chapter about the Son being the Creator as nothing was made without Him, remember?

And if you take John 6:39-40 KJV in how the Lord will keep all the Father has given Him and lose nothing... then that is how I read that truth in 1 Peter 4:19 as Jesus being the faithful Creator that keeps our souls

@JesusIs4Me
According to Scripture; The one who authorized Creation; and who Creation is of; is the Creator; His Will; His Plans; His Authority etc.

Christ did not authorize creation; it was not the will of Christ; Creation is by Christ; However Creation is not Of Christ?
Do you understand?

Essentially the patent of creation lies with our only true God which is also known as The Father or The Lord who our Lord and his only begotten son declared.

Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

 

[Ivar]

@JesusIs4Me
I tried explaining it here before I was mocked and the thread was closed
John 1:1 Explanation

 

[JesusIs4Me]

@JesusIs4Me
According to Scripture; The one who authorized Creation; and who Creation is of; is the Creator; His Will; His Plans; His Authority etc.

Christ did not authorize creation; it was not the will of Christ; Christ is by Christ; However Creation is not Of Christ?
Do you understand?

Essentially the patent of creation lies with our only true God which is also known as The Father or The Lord who our Lord and his only begotten son declared.

Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

I believe it was the Word of God that had asked the Father for the permission to create, and by having His approval, Jesus did create with the Father & the Holy Spirit in agreement with Him since everything that was made was made by the Word of God as John 1 st chapter testifies of. The reason I believe that, was by the way the request was made to "Let us" create man in "our image". This also leads to how the prayer system is set up whereby Jesus is the Only Mediator as all prayers goes by Him to the Father so when the Father says "Yes", the Son answers the prayers so that the Father may be glorified in the Son per John 14:13-14 KJV

 

[Ivar]

@JesusIs4Me
Also Creation started with Christ who is the firstborn of all creation; the same was with God in the beginning; The same was God because he had the authority of God however John did declare him to be The Son of God and John did say that No Man hath seen God at any time. Also John saw Christ many times and wrote his book after the fact

 

[Ivar]

@JesusIs4Me
There is no evidence of the Son of God existing before the beginning; only coming into being in the beginning; that is also why he is the only begotten of God because the Father who possessed his Holy Spirit before the beginning; brought forth the Son in the beginning; Which is why there are three that bear witness in heaven because at the beginning only those three were present

 

[JesusIs4Me]

@JesusIs4Me
Also Creation started with Christ who is the firstborn of all creation; the same was with God in the beginning; The same was God because he had the authority of God however John did declare him to be The Son of God and John did say that No Man hath seen God at any time. Also John saw Christ many times and wrote his book after the fact

Have you considered that the firstborn of all creation is signifying the Creator? Pick a species and say that first born of that species on the day it was created, is where all the different variation of that species came from. So the firstborn of all creation is signifying where all creation came from as from the Creator, would it not?

John did say that no man had seen God at any time, but John did report twice that Jesus said that He has seen God the Father;

But scripture in the O.T. as written by Moses as led by the Holy Spirit, testify of men having seen God; so when you put them all together; no man had seen God the Father, but men had seen God the Son in the O.T. BEFORE His incarnation.

The Lord had appeared to Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob and even Moses.... and He spoke through the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 48:16-17 where the Lord God is speaking and yet it is the Lord God and His Spirit that will send Him as that prophesy was fulfilled in Matthew 3:15-17 at Jesus's water baptism.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

 

[Ivar]

The Son is the firstborn of all Creation; all Creation after the firstborn of all Creation was made by the firstborn of all creation; The same was with God in the beginning because he is the firstborn of all creation and started the beginning ; The Same was God because he had the authority of God; The Same was the disciple of God from the beginning.

Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

 

[Ivar]

Have you considered that the firstborn of all creation is signifying the Creator? Pick a species and say that first born of that species on the day it was created, is where all the different variation of that species came from. So the firstborn of all creation is signifying where all creation came from as from the Creator, would it not?

John did say that no man had seen God at any time, but John did report twice that Jesus said that He has seen God the Father;

But scripture in the O.T. as written by Moses as led by the Holy Spirit, testify of men having seen God; so when you put them all together; no man had seen God the Father, but men had seen God the Son in the O.T. BEFORE His incarnation.

The Lord had appeared to Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob and even Moses.... and He spoke through the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 48:16-17 where the Lord God is speaking and yet it is the Lord God and His Spirit that will send Him as that prophesy was fulfilled in Matthew 3:15-17 at Jesus's water baptism.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

@JesusIs4Me
The Creator preceds the beginning and has no beginning; Hear his words spoken thru Isaiah

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

@JesusIs4Me
There is no evidence of the Son of God existing before the beginning; only coming into being in the beginning; that is also why he is the only begotten of God because the Father who possessed his Holy Spirit before the beginning; brought forth the Son in the beginning; Which is why there are three that bear witness in heaven because at the beginning only those three were present

There is no evidence that the Son of God did not exist before the beginning, if you think about it. From there, by asking Him for help, I can ascertain that how the Son created everything ....for Him to be in the bosom of the Father... is evidence that He is of God as God and I can see that He always was as God in His words.

John 1:18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

The Son is the firstborn of all Creation; all Creation after the firstborn of all Creation was made by the firstborn of all creation; The same was with God in the beginning because he is the firstborn of all creation and started the beginning ; The Same was God because he had the authority of God; The Same was the disciple of God from the beginning.

Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

May I suggest you pray about this? Because I cannot convince you. Only God can cause the increase. Good night, brother.

 

[Ivar]

There is no evidence that the Son of God did not exist before the beginning, if you think about it. From there, by asking Him for help, I can ascertain that how the Son created everything ....for Him to be in the bosom of the Father... is evidence that He is of God as God and I can see that He always was as God in His words.

John 1:18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

:grin: