Can a true Christian sin or not?

[regibassman57]

@Dovegiven,

The false prophets spoken of in Matthews 7:15 are tares in the body of Christ. They have received the word of truth, but they have not put on Christ (Eph. 4:22-24). These tares/ false prophets are worldly carnal Christians describe in Matthew 13:20-22. This is how you will know them by their fruit.

It’s presented; do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? (Mat. 7:16).

Matthew 7:17-20 teaches, good trees can only bring forth good fruit. And evil trees can only bring forth evil fruit. Good trees “CANNOT” bring forth evil fruit. Corrupt trees cannot bring forth good fruit. It’s not possible according to many believers. Many believers believe Christian bring forth evil or corrupt fruit.

Born again believers do many evil things, what is the fruit they’re referring to? Before we as believers became Christians, we were corrupt trees, we “could not” bring forth good fruit (Mat. 7:18; Rom. 6:20). How is it then as believers we can bring forth evil fruit and sin? Sin is evil or corrupt fruit (Rom. 7:5). Scripture does not teach, in it’s principle, that a good tree can bring forth evil, corrupt or sinful fruit as Matthew 7:18 says. If a believer does not bring forth good fruit he or she is cast into the fire. We know them by their fruits. If a believer sins; which is evil fruit (according to Matthew) they are in sheeps clothing.

Dovegiven, I’ll present this, and I’ll address the rest on my next post. I don’t want to give you too much at once.

 

[regibassman57]

@Dovegiven,

Understanding these false prophets or carnal believers, many will say to Jesus in that day, Lord, Lord have we not done? We know these are Christian because they’re prophesying in Jesus’ name. They are casting out devils in Jesus’ name and doing many works.

Mar 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and “he follow not us”: and we forbad him, because he follows not us.

Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is “no man which shall do a miracle in my name,” that can lightly speak evil of me.

Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Another reason we know these are believers is because of what 1Corinthians 12 speaks of.

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed: and that “no man can say that Jesus is the Lord”, “but by the Holy Ghost.”

Those spoken of in Matthew 7 have the Spirit of God abiding in them. Jesus will say to these, “I never knew you” because of their lawlessness; they would not keep God’s commandments; which is doing God’s will (Mat. 7:23: Luk. 13:23, 24).

If a believer does God’s will through keeping His word, they will develop Righteous fruit and will be place on a firm foundation (Mat. 7:24-25). Those that are carnal or lukewarm believers are those that were seeking to build upon Christ worldly things and had no foundation (1Cor. 3:12-15) (1Jo. 2:15-17).

 

[B-A-C]

Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Just curious what Bible this is from?

 

[regibassman57]

@B-A-C,
King James Version,

 

[Sue D.]

Look at the verses just before vs 26 in Hebrews 7.

 

[Sue D.]

@Sue,
Do you consider yourself a High Priest in The Lord and separate from sinners; undefiled from sin?

Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

No, I'm Not a High Priest -- Jesus Christ is. He is our mediator. I'm definitely a sinner who's been saved by God's grace.

I'd just commented in previous post that That verse is referring to Jesus Christ.

That verse -- KJV is not worded very well. The old NIV wording is better. vs 26 reads "Such a high priest meets our need -- one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. vs 27 Unlike the other high priests, He does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, ......"

 

[regibassman57]

@Sue,
I can accept that interpetation Sue. Thank you. I will not use that scripture in the context I have. The King James wording is off in that particular scripture.

 

[regibassman57]

@Sue,
How does this read to you Sue?

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repents, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

 

[regibassman57]

@Life,
REQUIREMENTS OF SALVATION

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
*************************************************************************
If a person "CONFESSES" with their mouth "1John 1:9" acknowledging they've sinned and are a sinner and shall "BELIEVE" from the "HEART" that God has "RAISED" Jesus from the dead, after this they are saved. (Mat. 1:21; Rom. 4:25; 1Cor. 15:3)

If a person "DOES NOT BELIEVE FROM THEIR HEART" that God has "RAISED" Jesus from the dead "FOR JUSTIFICATION OF THEIR SINS" they are "STILL SINNERS" or "YET" in their sins and are not saved.
*************************************************************************
Romans 4:25
Jesus was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Jesus was raised from the dead to make us "RIGHTEOUS." All that will "BELIEVE FROM THEIR HEART " that Jesus died to take away their sins will be saved (Joh. 1:29; 1Joh. 3:5).

The preaching of Romans Ten Nine and Ten would be in vain and this would be a myth if it was not preached that Jesus rose from the dead for our sins; which made us "RIGHTEOUS" in God's mind.
*************************************************************************
1 Corinthians 15:14
And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1 Corinthians 15:17
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; you are yet in your sins.

In vain because "YOU" do not believe "WHY" God raised Jesus from the dead. If Jesus was not raised from the dead we would not be Righteous.

 

[regibassman57]

@Life,

A person cannot be Righteous and a Sinner at the same time. This is a principle thing.
A person cannot be (in Christ) rich and poor in spirit.

James 1:8
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

James 3:11
Does a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

James 3:12
Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

2 Corinthians 8:9
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that you through his poverty might be rich.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For God hath made Jesus to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Revelation 3:17
Because you say, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and do not know that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Revelation 3:18
I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich; and white raiment, that you may be clothed, and that the shame of your nakedness do not appear; and anoint your eyes with eye-salve, that you mayest see.

 

[regibassman57]

@Life,

Scriptures teach us, it is a struggle to enter or obtain Eternal Life.

Luke 13:23
Then said one unto Jesus, Lord, are there few that be saved? And Jesus said unto them,
Luke 13:24
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

G75 - "strive"
ἀγωνίζομαι [A)GWNI/ZOMAI] {agōnízomai} \ag-o-nid'-zom-ahee\
from 73; "to struggle," literally (to compete for a prize), figuratively (to contend with an adversary), or genitive case (to endeavor to accomplish something):--fight, labor fervently, strive.

Those that shall not be able to enter are some Christians. Matthew 13:19-23-41 show those that will enter and those that will not. Those that will not is because they love the world more than they love Christ. Those on Stoney ground, Thorny ground and Good ground are initially saved believers; Christians. They are in the house of God; the Church of Christ.

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The Righteous are those on Stoney ground, Thorny ground and Good ground. In the day that God shall judged His House and His Church, the Righteous will scarcely be saved.

G3433 "Scarcely"
μόλις [MO/LIS] {mólis} \mol'-is\
probably by variation for 3425; with difficulty:--hardly, scarce(-ly), + with much work.

What about sinners?

1 Peter 4:18
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

 

[JesusIs4Me]

Good point -- a person who is born again does not Habitually abide in sin. And when we Do get into a rut of some sort , the Holy Spirit Does convict us and works with us showing us in various ways that what we're doing or thinking about Is wrong. We receive a new nature but don't loose the old one.

A born again believer has been warned not to sow to the works of the flesh or else reap corruption. There is no point in warning a saved believer not to do that unless it is possible to do so.

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

So a born again believer can wind up habitually sinning if they keep thinking that they can stop whenever they want to, and find out, they are unable to, not because they called upon Him to be delivered from their sins, but because they do not want to call on Him to deliver them from their sins.

However, if a saved believer finds himself with a Dr. Jekyl & Mr Hyde complex, they can still call on Jesus for help in spite of the fact that they are not sure about themselves in being sincere in wanting Him to. Just keep calling, and keep trusting Him to do His work and that habitual sinning saved believer shall find himself or herself free from that desire to sin and to death. He or she can even ask others to pray for them that God would set them free.

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. ....8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Romans 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[regibassman57]

@All,
I know we all believe we disagree on the topic "Can a believer sin or not" but there is more involved here. I pray that no one has lost their Godly, Righteous love for their brother or sister over this conversation. God is the judge and no man should lose their peace over a topic of discussion. God Bless everyone on this forum that is not afraid to speak in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. I use this forum as an exercise medium.

When I feel Satan agitating my mind over some discussions, I remember God has said, "Let not your heart be troubled. Resist the devil and he will flee. Therefore, when Satan seeks to take my peace through his law of making me feel bothered because a person does not agree with my thought; I remember; we do not wrestle against flesh and blood. Our neighbor or fellow texter is not our enemy. Satan is a liar and seeks to deceive emotionally. In Christ Brothers and Sister never let it happen. I have, had and will have the Victory in Christ. Faith, Hope and Love to all until the end.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

 

[Dovegiven]

.........Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Nice touch on the subject! That takes us back to the excellent post #1. I would add 1 John 2:1-3 (KJV)
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

That chapter makes it clear that the "we" and "our" is us, the Church, each member of the body of Christ. It's vital for each of us to know our knowing of Jesus, which knowing strengthens our confidence in Him to keep living by faith, doing what we know to do, confessing our faults at least to Him, knowing He will perfect us daily.

In Christ there is no room for "dual citizenship" spiritually. One is devoted to adhering to life in Christ Jesus as much as we can comprehend, or is playing dangerous spiritual games, one foot in each realm, dancing in and out of one or the other. Comprehending 100% of Him and absolute sinlessness is not possible in the flesh, since we need that advocate, but the time comes when we will all know those unsearchable infinite things. So....Church, forgive so you can be forgiven.

 

[Dovegiven]

@All,
I know we all believe we disagree on the topic "Can a believer sin or not" but there is more involved here. I pray that no one has lost their Godly, Righteous love for their brother or sister over this conversation. God is the judge and no man should lose their peace over a topic of discussion. God Bless everyone on this forum that is not afraid to speak in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. I use this forum as an exercise medium.

When I feel Satan agitating my mind over some discussions, I remember God has said, "Let not your heart be troubled. Resist the devil and he will flee. Therefore, when Satan seeks to take my peace through his law of making me feel bothered because a person does not agree with my thought; I remember; we do not wrestle against flesh and blood. Our neighbor or fellow texter is not our enemy. Satan is a liar and seeks to deceive emotionally. In Christ Brothers and Sister never let it happen. I have, had and will have the Victory in Christ. Faith, Hope and Love to all until the end.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

My observation is that the majority of those following actually agree on the topic of post #1. The discussion following it can be used to smooth off any burrs if we all agree on the authority of scripture. We can all agree with your message of love.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

Nice touch on the subject! That takes us back to the excellent post #1. I would add 1 John 2:1-3 (KJV)
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

That chapter makes it clear that the "we" and "our" is us, the Church, each member of the body of Christ. It's vital for each of us to know our knowing of Jesus, which knowing strengthens our confidence in Him to keep living by faith, doing what we know to do, confessing our faults at least to Him, knowing He will perfect us daily.

In Christ there is no room for "dual citizenship" spiritually. One is devoted to adhering to life in Christ Jesus as much as we can comprehend, or is playing dangerous spiritual games, one foot in each realm, dancing in and out of one or the other. Comprehending 100% of Him and absolute sinlessness is not possible in the flesh, since we need that advocate, but the time comes when we will all know those unsearchable infinite things. So....Church, forgive so you can be forgiven.

I am not sure how being devoted is applied here in regards to how the christian is desiring to be abiding in Him if it be religiously or otherwise; but from the scripture I have read, His words is prompting us to believe in Him that He is devoted to us as our Good Shepherd since our confidence is in Him to finish His work in us to His glory and to the glory of God the Father. I believe that is how we get to know Him & the power of His resurrection when we rest in Jesus Christ in His words to us.

It is something little children can do for why they are free to come to the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[regibassman57]

@Dovegiven, @Life,

I stand on what I read and understand scripture to teach like everyone else.

You believe: “In Christ there is no room for "dual citizenship" spiritually.”

I believe this to a degree also. But I believe believers are dead to this world as Christ has told us; this is the reason why we have no dual citizenship. If a believer is dead to this world how can they sin? Which would make them a citizen of this world if they did. Sin is of this world. If a believer sins they have a dual citizenship. There is no sin in the body of Christ (1Joh. 3:5, 9). If we walk in this world in an unfruitful manner, God is not remembering our sins because He is not imputing sin in this New Covenant promise. God will be merciful to our unrighteousness by not remembering our sins (Heb. 8:12; 10:17). We are in this world, but we are not of this world. We are citizens in Christ having been raised with Him.

Col 3:1 If “you then be risen with Christ,” seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God.

Col 3:2 Set your affection (Gr. exercise your mind, entertain or have a sentiment or opinion) on things above, not on things on the earth.

Col 3:3 For “you are dead,” and your life is hid with Christ in God.

If we are risen with Christ, as 1Cor. 15:17 teaches, we are not in sin and cannot sin.

If it is true with Jesus, then it is true with believers. If it's not truth with Jesus, then it is not true with believers.

As Jesus is, so are we in this world spiritually, not fleshly (1Joh. 4:17). Is Jesus Righteous? So are we in this world. Does Jesus sin? So are we in this world. Will Jesus come and judge sin when He returns? No!

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to “bear the sins of many;” and unto them that look for him (through faith) shall he appear the second time “without sin” unto salvation.

G399 (bear)
anapherō
From G303 and G5342; to take up (literally or figuratively): - bear, bring (carry, lead) up, offer (up).

(GW) Likewise, Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of humanity, and after that he will appear a second time. This time he will not deal with sin, but he will save those who eagerly wait for him.

(HCSB) so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him.

(ISV) so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people. And he will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly wait for him.

Jesus has already taken away our sins and He will not judge, deal with, or entertain sin anymore.

The question then would be, what about those believers that sin? God is coming without sin to judge His church which is sinless.

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that "judgment must begin at the house of God": and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

1Pe 4:18 And "if the righteous scarcely be saved," where shall the "ungodly" and the "sinner" appear?

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and "they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend," and "them which do iniquity";

 

[regibassman57]

@Life,

What did God say He would do with a believer’s unrighteous actions? First, what is an unrighteous act?

1Jo 5:17 “All unrighteousness is sin”: and there is a sin not unto death.

How will God be merciful unto a believer’s unrighteousness?

Heb 8:12 For “I will be “merciful” to their unrighteousness,” and “their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.”

God has prophesied to believers how He will be merciful to their unrighteousness (Jer. 31:34). He said He will not remember their sins anymore. This only benefits believers who are born again. Because a believer is born of God, He does not see their sin through His Mercy.

1Jo 5:18 We know that “whosoever is born of God sins not” (misses the mark); but he that is begotten of God keeps himself, and that wicked one touches him not.

G264 (sins not)
hamartanō
Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the base of G3313; properly “to miss the mark” (and so not share in the prize), that is, (figuratively) “to err”, especially (morally) “to sin”: - for your faults, offend, “sin,” “trespass”.

This can only happen through the Grace of God. There was a time when sin abounded unto death. This was before God was merciful to man’s sins (Rom. 6:23). It is through Christ’s death and resurrection that we’ve found mercy of The Lord (Tit. 3:5). After Christ’s resurrection the light overcame the darkness. This is why God does not see sin in man; only the light of the world (Joh. 8:12; 12:46).

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But “where sin abounded,” “grace did much more abound”:

A man cannot see darkness in the light. Every believer is in the light.

 

[Dave M]

@regibassman57 I got question for you.

When a person who has been a habitual sinner all his life and has done nothing for no one his entire life and right before he dies he gives his life to Jesus and is saved, do think he will have the same reward waiting on him in heaven as the missionary who lost his life for Jesus and devoted his entire life to helping others.

 

[Christ4Ever]

@Sue,
Do you consider yourself a High Priest in The Lord and separate from sinners; undefiled from sin?

Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Saw this prior to going to Church and have to ask. Are you using this to show that we are High Priests, or that Christ is the High Priest, or possibly even what the duties of the High Priest are or............? There are a myriad of ways that this verse can be used and I'm curious how you meant for them to be used in this instance.

Thanks in advance.

With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother.
YBIC
Nick
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