Where do Christians go when they 'die'?

[PloughBoy]

Well where is it saying this, that is, His 2nd coming to or on the earth is the rapture, Or are we reading into the text that is does not say plainly. We must always remember this also you can take isolated text of Scripture to determine things. I will say that, there are 4 more events to come. 1. "The Rapture [for the coronation event]", 2."The Millennium Reign" is The 2 coming" 3. At the end of the REIGNing EVENTS [ some will pass into eternal life out of this event and other with the other before "the Great White Throne Judgment" 4. Then GOD will destroy everything and Make ALL things Brand News. in according to His book.

(Short refresh of a event).
After the Coronation and the Wedding supper He and his saints comes to earth for His 2nd coming to Rule for a thousand years with His saints. The Rapture is not the second coming, He will catch us up into the sky and take us to the wedding feast. Then come back, will we be just like HIM. and share in the Reign of Christ on Earth I don't see how anyone can miss this salvation story, after reading it over and over again. from Genesis to Revelation. It is impossible i think. it is told through out the Bible. So many Biblical Motifs. That the world cannot see it there but it has been "Unveiled" unto us! in The Revelation of Jesus Christ!

It is impossible for them to see! Sometimes i feel like a broken record. Look there it is, look !

 

[Dave M]

Well where is it saying this, that is, His 2nd coming to or on the earth is the rapture,

, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,

Plain as day for some, yet eludes others

It is impossible for them to see! Sometimes i feel like a broken record. Look there it is, look !

 

[Dave M]

Youre reading into the text what's not there. None of them mentions heaven.

wear do you think home of the lord is??

 

[PloughBoy]

Dave M.

Has been laughing! If it ain't the pearly gates, he do not want to go, He does not want any stopping ports! I think he feels, he might get stuck or lost in Hades or the grave. LOL! He has his mind on Heaven. He does not want to go no where near the sounds of that place! LOL!

 

[B-A-C]

wear do you think home of the lord is??

It has to do with the timing. Right now Jesus is in heaven. Back He's coming back. We will rise up "on the last day".
After He comes back, He will reign on the earth for 1,000 years (rod of iron). But even then the saints aren't resurrected.
But Jesus won't be in heaven for those thousand years. And even after those 1,000 years He still won't be in heaven.

He will be in the New Jerusalem.

 

[Dave M]

. The bible never directs us to place hope in going to heaven

yet in revelation we are told that there are souls under the throne and apparently they know what is going on down on earth and can even communicate, and I think its safe to say the throne is in heaven

Revelation 6:9-11
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

 

[B-A-C]

Rev 6:9; When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
Rev 6:10; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
Rev 6:11; And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

We aren't told exactly who these people are, and where they have come from yet.... but in the next chapter...

Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

It seems these people in the robes (who were under the altar in chapter 6) are the Christians who were martyred during the tribulation.
Now some people believe the Jews are the only ones being saved who will go through the tribulation.... but the Bible seems to say otherwise.

Rev 7:9; After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

It seems somewhere between Revelation 6 and 7 these people were avenged and released. But notice in verse 9 above, this isn't just Jews. Its people from every race and nation.
Also notice it isn't just 144,000 people. It's a great multitude that no one can count.

I was going to say we have diverged here... but not really I think. We are still talking about where Christians will go when they die (even if they are martyred during the tribulation).

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

It may just be coincidence (I don't think so) but notice why the people in Rev 6:9; were killed. Also notice why the people Rev 20:4; were killed. It's almost exactly the same.
Could the people in rev 20:4; be the same people in Rev 6:9; ?

If the "rest of the dead" don't come to life until after the thousand years. Does that include "the dead in Christ"?

 

[Hekuran]

I think you're asking the wrong question of the text. Take yourself back to the end of the first century when persecution of Christians reached a terrible peak under Emperor Domitian.

What questions would they asking? Has God abandoned us? Is he on control? What of our brothers and sisters who have been killed - have they died in vain? Can we go on resisting the power of the empire?

Revelation 6 is an encouragement that those who resist - even to the point of death - will be vindicated and honoured at the resurrection.

It's a vision, not a literal description of heaven or of earth. It tells us that the sacrificed lamb will overcome the Dragon.

 

[B-A-C]

Whether heaven itself it an actual physical place doesn't matter that much. Like I said in the OP it's used in different contexts at different times.
Is heaven some place I can physically see with a telescope? Is the altar with the saints beneath an actual physical wooden altar? Probably not.
The fact remains.... heaven is a "place". Perhaps a spiritual, metaphysical, another dimension place... but in many many contexts... a place.
Somewhere else... not here.

Jesus said He goes to prepare "a place". A another place, somewhere else.
Jesus said He was leaving the Earth, so that the Holy Spirit could could. Apparently they can't be the same "place" at the same time. (Hence modalism)
Jesus told the disciples they couldn't go with Him to this "place" (at least not yet)
He Jesus said eventually He was coming back... that infers He is leaving some "place" and coming back to another "place".
Satan was kicked out of a "place".

If the great tribulation already happened in 70ad, Why is Satan still running around?
Why are Christians still persecuted? Why are there still other religions?
When was a third of mankind killed? Then another third? Then another third?
When did Jesus reign over the earth "with a rod of iron" for a thousand years?

No, the great tribulation hasn't happened yet.

But even if it did... is this all the heaven there is? We die and that's it? No eternal life (I guess Jesus must have lied about that part?)
Belinda Carlisle was right? Heaven is a place on earth? .. Sorry, no there is another life. There is a resurrection. Heaven is another "place" (physical or otherwise).
But I tend to agree we may not go to heaven... at least not all of us... at least not yet.

So then... where is this "place". Is it just a state of mind? A place in our hearts? "Jesus lives in my heart, so that's where heaven is"? Nonsense.
The kingdom of heaven may be within Christians, but it existed long before any Christians existed.
The kingdom of heaven isn't just a membership (like Costco or the NRA) but it is a "place".

 

[Brother-Paul]

I grew up with them and i don't have to look at them anymore and I stand sure [grave and Hades] are the same,

That is what I believe also brother.

I'm still working on "where" we go... there are still plenty of scriptures to discuss here.
But the other part of this question is 'when' do we go? Many people believe we immediately go at the instant we die.
A lot of churches teach something called 'soul sleep' where you just lie in the ground until Jesus calls us up.

I do not believe we go to heaven when we die on earth, scripture tells us how our body is made up and tells us the body goes to the grave, the spirit and soul goes to be with God. That is how it remains until the 'last day' when we are resurrected to new life.

Just like many that the Pre-triblationlist calls "the Rapture of the Church" the "2nd coming of Christ" it is not or is it taught in scripture His second coming to earth or any such thing as His secret coming. i have never read anything of such it the "Bible" with that type of description.

I fully agree brother, I do wonder where some of these thoughts come from (no need to reply)

It has to do with the timing. Right now Jesus is in heaven. Back He's coming back. We will rise up "on the last day".
After He comes back, He will reign on the earth for 1,000 years (rod of iron). But even then the saints aren't resurrected.
But Jesus won't be in heaven for those thousand years. And even after those 1,000 years He still won't be in heaven.

He will be in the New Jerusalem.

God's speed all will be revealed, we just have to practice righteousness and be ready.

And the New Jerusalem is being prepared in Heaven, that was why Jesus said. 'I will go and 'prepare' a place for you.' He is still preparing it.

The New Jerusalem will not be complete until the Church is complete and all Names in the Book of Life and the Lamb are in place.

We as humans in this life do not go to heaven, only our spirit and soul goes to heaven when we die. Our bodies go back to the dust of the earth, they cannot be raised up on the last day unless they are laid to rest in the grave first. Unless a grain of wheat falls.....

I believe the New Heaven and New Earth will not be new as we think new, another new item, they will be the original made new, back to their former glory. Paradise in Eden that paradise is in heaven. The New Jerusalem, the Church, will come down out of heaven onto the newly restored earth. We know the size and description of it, that I believe will be where the banquet will be, that is where the rooms in the Father's Mansion will be.

All thoughts very welcome , its good to Talk Jesus.

Shalom

 

[PloughBoy]

Rev 6:9; When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
Rev 6:10; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
Rev 6:11; And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

We aren't told exactly who these people are, and where they have come from yet.... but in the next chapter...

Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

It seems these people in the robes (who were under the altar in chapter 6) are the Christians who were martyred during the tribulation.
Now some people believe the Jews are the only ones being saved who will go through the tribulation.... but the Bible seems to say otherwise.

Rev 7:9; After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

It seems somewhere between Revelation 6 and 7 these people were avenged and released. But notice in verse 9 above, this isn't just Jews. Its people from every race and nation.
Also notice it isn't just 144,000 people. It's a great multitude that no one can count.

I was going to say we have diverged here... but not really I think. We are still talking about where Christians will go when they die (even if they are martyred during the tribulation).

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

It may just be coincidence (I don't think so) but notice why the people in Rev 6:9; were killed. Also notice why the people Rev 20:4; were killed. It's almost exactly the same.
Could the people in rev 20:4; be the same people in Rev 6:9; ?

If the "rest of the dead" don't come to life until after the thousand years. Does that include "the dead in Christ"?

I think it will be safe also to say; "Martyr's" are what we may call "God's" superhero's they are so special and receives a special reward. may i say. They are God's "superstars" whose clothes has been drench in blood, filth, mud and dirt, and their bodies have been scarred, abused and tormented for their "testimony about Jesus and their stance of obeying the word of God"!

God's superstars do no have nice houses and lands, cars and diamond rings and nose rings, and Gucci bags and Armani suits, parading to the Ivory Tower to appease the sensuality. No matter what dispensation they arrive from! Everybody does not have to wait for a "Great Tribulation period" many are all ready in one! And many are losing their heads today in the name of Jesus and the Word of God. And I can seem to hear, the voices of those singing as if they are in "harmonic unity" among those who are in a state of of somewhat perpetual despair.

Could the altar under the throne describe here in related text, is just a form of "anthropomorphic words". and Not "The Holiness of ALL Holiest" the place where the "Seraphims and The Cherubims" have to hide their eyes from Him that sits on the Throne.

only more food for thought. The Throne of God ain't no joke. that has flowers and buttercups dancing around it, with Greek flower crowns on Angels heads.

"For our GOD is a Consuming Fire" He is hotter than the SUN! He is Hotter than a Bolt of Lightening! Some think they have to wait, Game over when you stand in HIs presence! "When He showed up! You know what happen? read the verse below!


Contemporary English Version
I saw a great white throne with someone sitting on it. Earth and heaven tried to run away, but there was no place for them to go.
(Revelation 20:11).

PS Always remember GOD existed before anything that exists. visible or invisible. Heaven or the cosmos. and if anything is made He made it. Now is that a Paradox? Of course not. GOD is still a Consuming Fire He is immutable. So how many went to Heaven and came back and wrote a book and saw God?

Or did Heaven get a upgrade?

 

[B-A-C]

I believe the New Heaven and New Earth will not be new as we think new, another new item, they will be the original made new, back to their former glory. Paradise in Eden that paradise is in heaven. The New Jerusalem, the Church, will come down out of heaven onto the newly restored earth. We know the size and description of it, that I believe will be where the banquet will be, that is where the rooms in the Father's Mansion will be.

Even if this is true. The current earth is just "re-newed" as opposed to altogether new, and heaven is "re-newed" as opposed to altogether new from scratch.
Either way... it hasn't happened yet. That is my point.

As far as the New Jerusalem... I believe you are right. Now while heaven may or may not be a physical place. The New Jerusalem is definitely a physical place with physical dimensions
made of physical elements.

But if I understand you correctly here (and it's possible I am mistaken)... you believe the dead saints are currently floating around in heaven as bodiless apparitions?
That either will be re-joined with their old bodys or else get new bodys at the resurrection. You believe that when Jesus says "the dead will rise", it simply means the bodies.
The Bible does say even the wicked are resurrected in a couple of places. Where are their souls/spirits now?

 

[PloughBoy]

Rev 6:9; When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
Rev 6:10; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
Rev 6:11; And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

We aren't told exactly who these people are, and where they have come from yet.... but in the next chapter...

Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

It seems these people in the robes (who were under the altar in chapter 6) are the Christians who were martyred during the tribulation.
Now some people believe the Jews are the only ones being saved who will go through the tribulation.... but the Bible seems to say otherwise.

Rev 7:9; After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

It seems somewhere between Revelation 6 and 7 these people were avenged and released. But notice in verse 9 above, this isn't just Jews. Its people from every race and nation.
Also notice it isn't just 144,000 people. It's a great multitude that no one can count.

I was going to say we have diverged here... but not really I think. We are still talking about where Christians will go when they die (even if they are martyred during the tribulation).

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

It may just be coincidence (I don't think so) but notice why the people in Rev 6:9; were killed. Also notice why the people Rev 20:4; were killed. It's almost exactly the same.
Could the people in rev 20:4; be the same people in Rev 6:9; ?

If the "rest of the dead" don't come to life until after the thousand years. Does that include "the dead in Christ"?

I think you are getting to understand a little how Revelation is written. Good work.

 

[PloughBoy]

I am really enjoying the replies, the thoughts and the somewhat paradox that some have come to on their own with expression. And most of all, not copying others or so called "end time" prophets materials. But giving to us their being and applying the text in the context in which it is written, and presenting it to those here to examine, what they have discovered. With sincerity and sometimes with humor and humility and most of all, edification in relating to the written text. "Oh how sweet it is, for brothers to dwell together in unity, even like the oil that was pour upon Aaron's head that ran down on his beard even unto the skirts of his garments".

(Psalms 133)
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
2It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;

 

[Dave M]

After He comes back, He will reign on the earth for 1,000 years (rod of iron). But even then the saints aren't resurrected.

this is interesting and I know whear you get it from. It puzzles me because we also have scripture that says

at the coming of the lord the dead in Christ will rise., he is going to bring back everyone with him he clears out heaven, and it seems they are going to get there glorified bodies, and I think this is before the 1,000 year rule

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.


1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.


1 Thessalonians 4:14
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

 

[B-A-C]

he is going to bring back everyone with him he clears out heaven, and it seems they are going to get there glorified bodies, and I think this is before the 1,000 year rule

Ahh.. that is the question. I can't prove you wrong so this may be the case. But I can't prove you right either, so it may be after the 1,000 years.

 

[PloughBoy]

And we will reign with Christ on earth for a thousand years. The Millinuum

 

[PloughBoy]

To know this, you do not post and stick. You know this by reading the book from front to back on a number of times and then you begin to know the "Book" and Jesus reveals it to you very plain. It is simple "For low I come in the volume of the book"! It is to simple for most Christians to understand. And why so many Christians had to die violent deaths, lose their heads martyrs so you can read it from front to back. I know this sounds stupid. Foolishness!

 

[B-A-C]

And we will reign with Christ on earth for a thousand years. The Millinuum

That's the question.

There are several trains of thought here. (I may even be missing some)

1. Is it "all" the saints who have ever died since the human race began?
The problem with this is... Rev 20:4 only mentions those who were martyred and didn't take the mark of the beast. It doesn't mention any of the other saints who died "normal" deaths.
2. Is it ONLY those who were martyred during the tribulation?
3. Is it only those who martyred at any time since the human race began.

Now if you believe in the "pre-tribulation rapture". There is another possibility.

The "church" is raptured before the tribulation begins. When Jesus returns He will brings those people back with Him to reign with Him.
The problem with this is... Rev 20:5-6; says the "first resurrection" doesn't happen until "after" the 1,000 year reign.
The other problem is... if the church is already "taken up".. then who are the believers who are martyred?

One theory is they are people who got saved "after" the rapture.

 

[Dave M]

interesting article on the resurrection

Revelation 20:4-6 mentions a “first resurrection” and identifies those involved as “blessed and holy.” The second death (the lake of fire, Revelation 20:14) has no power over these individuals. The first resurrection, then, is the raising of all believers. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14) and the “resurrection of life” (John 5:29).

The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints (Matthew 27:52-53) which should be included in our consideration of the first resurrection. Still to come are the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4).

Revelation 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God at the great white throne judgment prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29).

The event which divides the first and second resurrections seems to be the millennial kingdom. The last of the righteous are raised to reign “with Christ a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4), but the “rest of the dead [that is, the wicked] lived not again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5).



What great rejoicing will attend the first resurrection! What great anguish at the second! What a responsibility we have to share the Gospel! “And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire” (Jude 23).

What is the first resurrection? What is the second resurrection? | GotQuestions.org

What is the first resurrection? What is the second resurrection? Are believers and unbelievers resurrected at different times?

www.gotquestions.org