Where do Christians go when they 'die'?

[Hekuran]

The Bible never talks about the church being removed from the earth, so I order to have a conversation about when the rapture is, you need to cut loose from scripture.

Our hope is in the resurrection and Christ's return. That is what scripture teaches very consistently.

 

[Butch5]

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.1 (Matt. 24:21-31 KJV)

It seems pretty clear to me that Jesus said the gathering of His elect would be after the Tribulation. Paul said,

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.1 (1 Thess. 4:16-18 KJV)

Notice both Jesus and Paul say this event will happen at the sound of the trumpet.

 

[Nicola Jane]

That is not foreign to the different "schools of thought" concerning millennium events since 1 century theology confrontations. So this argument is not new, i came to my conclusion just by reading the scriptures from front to back, then found out that some thought patterns like myself concerning events that would transpire. I found some of the people who fell within certain groups, and that some believe and fell within the parameters of "pre-tribulation" and to my surprise, i was shock to find out that there were name groups of such parameters. So I read all of the groups! But still kept my stance on the account of what i have read on my own, In which some what lies, in the parameters of "pre-tribulation" in which many pre-tribulation believer also that came not to that conclusion but agree to somewhat of another teaching, that just happens to sound good to them, Just like the "post, Amillennial and even "Preterism" view points. Just like many that the Pre-triblationlist calls "the Rapture of the Church" the "2nd coming of Christ" it is not or is it taught in scripture His second coming to earth or any such thing as His secret coming. i have never read anything of such it the "Bible" with that type of description. It says plainly He will come back and get us and catch us up "into" the sky and take us where he will be and there we will always be with Him. "That was a promise" plain and simple. I will not go into more details concerning this event. It is plainly called His return in the sky or air and not to earth. There is a difference. It did not say anything about a secret coming. If He told us, how can it be a secret.

After by just reading over and over again from front to back with precise definitions of Biblical words and nota mans interpretations or thoughts or explanations. Just a couple of Good Reference Bibles "ASV", RSV, KJV. with examples in text of replacement words and meaning and a constant reading of Vine's and "ISBE" and LEXICONS, Strong's, Young's. These are the reference tools the BIBLE was written out of. They Used these exact tools to write our BIBLES. except for this modern day stuff. That is why YOUNG.s, Strong's. "ISBE" Brown's and D and Bauer Arndt Lexicons, and the Englishman greek and Englishman Hebrew, concordance, all these were tied together. EVERYTHING all of these work to gather so the "STUDENT of GOD" need not to be ashamed. Foot notes can be dangerous. avoid them if possible and lazy.

Now days we have a lot of "Bumble Bees" running a making a lot of noise and have not realize it is about "the honey" and not noise. And always slinging things they have heard and not dug out with their bare hands. But loves plagiarism.

(Isaiah 3) ASV
12As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they that lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

hello ploughboy can i ask you .....
i have my kjv bible and a nlt study bible( dont use this often just on my bookshelf) what would you reccommend i buy as a second bible to read alongside kjv also with what dictionary ect but in simple steps for me . you mention a lot of resources in above post so any wisdom and guidance for a good start greatly recieved .
also guilty of reading footnotes as guidance to hard passages of scripture. i have always Loved reading spurgeon .tozar and matthew henry
your thoughts
many thanks and God bless x

 

[Dave M]

The Bible never talks about the church being removed from the earth,

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

I would have to believe those who are left are the church, and it says they will go up into the clouds (leaving the ground of the earth) and meet the Lord.

Would you agree with my view on this scripture that the church is those that are left???

 

[B-A-C]

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

I would have to believe those who are left are the church, and it says they will go up into the clouds (leaving the ground of the earth) and meet the Lord.

Would you agree with my view on this scripture that the church is those that are left???

But where do they go.. after they are taken up?
I still believe it's the New Jerusalem... not heaven. The question is.. does the New Jerusalem rest on the surface of the Earth.. or float above the Earth.. something like the Lunar orbit?

Some people (I suspect Hekuran) think the New Jerusalem is only a "spiritual" place. But if this is the case.. back to the original question.. "where do Christians go when they die"?
Do they just wander around on the Earth as spirits? I certainly don't see this in the Bible.

 

[B-A-C]

We could debate all day about the rapture, and second coming, Millennial reign and all those things... (good topics to be sure)... but after all this is said and done... where do we go?

For fairness, I include this verse.
Rev 11:15; Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

Back to being sucked up into the sky...
1Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

OK.. we meet the Lord in the air. So far so good. It says we will "always" be with the the Lord after this. Great.. so where is the Lord going to be? On the Earth?

No. In the New Jerusalem. (which could be on the Earth. or floating above the Earth)
Rev 21:2; And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3; And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

Rev 21:22; I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Rev 22:1; Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
Rev 22:2; in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3; There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;
Rev 22:4; they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.
Rev 22:5; And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

At the end of the story (last chapter in the Bible) Jesus/God have their throne in the New Jerusalem. If we are "always" going to be with the Lord. That would seem to mean we will be in the New Jerusalem as well.
If this is "the tabernacle of God" then it makes sense that this is the "Father's house" where Jesus told us many mansions are (many dwelling places in some Bibles).

 

[Sue D.]

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

I would have to believe those who are left are the church, and it says they will go up into the clouds (leaving the ground of the earth) and meet the Lord.

Would you agree with my view on this scripture that the church is those that are left???

The Church are the ones being taken Up. Those who are left / remaining are those who are non-believers. WE're talking about the rapture -- both the dead and the living are taken up in a split second. It's just that the dead in Christ rise 1st and then the living in Christ following in a split second.

It's like when two people are going through a door they can't both go through at the same time -- one goes through and the other follows immediately. But they are both going through 'at the same time'

 

[Butch5]

But where do they go.. after they are taken up?
I still believe it's the New Jerusalem... not heaven. The question is.. does the New Jerusalem rest on the surface of the Earth.. or float above the Earth.. something like the Lunar orbit?

Some people (I suspect Hekuran) think the New Jerusalem is only a "spiritual" place. But if this is the case.. back to the original question.. "where do Christians go when they die"?
Do they just wander around on the Earth as spirits? I certainly don't see this in the Bible.

Isaiah 40, I believe it is, indicates that it is the current Jerusalem restored

 

[B-A-C]

Isaiah 40, I believe it is, indicates that it is the current Jerusalem restored

Isa 40:22; It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

 

[Hekuran]

There are two cities in the Book of Revelation: Babylon and Jerusalem. Everybody is a citizen of one of these.

At the time of writing, both cities were shadows of former glory, o ertaken by foreign powers, so the first readers were probably thinking in symbolic terms.

Thinking of the new Jerusalem as a non-physical spiritual place seems to me to be weird and totally out of step with the Bible.

I think the legitimate options are 1. Literal reality as described in Revelation.

2. the description on Revelation is a way to describe a reality that is beyond our comprehension.

 

[Br. Bear]

somewhere, we are told to humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God

Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He shall lift you up.
James 4:10
=========================

This is what the LORD says:

“Heaven is My throne,
and earth is My footstool.
What kind of house will you build for Me?

Or where will My place of repose be?

Has not My hand made all these things?
And so they came into being,”
declares the LORD.

“This is the one I will esteem:
he who is humble and contrite in spirit,
who trembles at My word.

Isaiah 66:1-2

 

[B-A-C]

Thinking of the new Jerusalem as a non-physical spiritual place seems to me to be weird and totally out of step with the Bible.

I see just the opposite. Jerusalem is an interesting topic, probably worth it's own study. It's mentioned over 800 times in the Bible. Far more than any other city.
But whenever someone in the Bible went to Jerusalem, they went to a physical place. It's on the map. I haven't been there, but I know people who have.
I've seen "selfies" of them there. The wailing wall is a real place, part of Solomon's temple that still survives to this day.
When Jesus was in Jerusalem, He was in the same Jerusalem anyone can go to today.

Jerusalem doesn't just exist in a some meta-spiritual way. Muslims and unbelievers of all kinds live there.
There is some debate about Melchizedek king of Salem. Jerusalem is actually made up of two words. Salem (Shalom) means peace.
Yet there are few places in the world where more wars were fought.

Jesus was a kingdom preacher... yes He preached a spiritual kingdom, but He also spoke to the physical kingdom. ( Matt 23:37; Luke 13:34; )
When the Bible says Jesus went to Samaria, and Jericho and Capernaum.. other places.. and then returned to Jerusalem. He returned to a physical place.
When He was crucified at Golgotha, it a real place you can visit even today.

God promised Abraham his descendants would live in the promised land. It seems everyone has been trying to keep the Jews out of there ever since.
Starting with the Canaanites in Joshua. In fact the fist time we hear about Jerusalem in the Bible (Joshua 10 ) it is already occupied by another race of people.

Mt. Zion (rather than Jerusalem specifically) is where the 'Mountain of the Lord from which He reigns', so if anything I would consider that more spiritually connected.

 

[Hekuran]

No disagreement from me on any of that. Not sure where we're in opposition.

 

[Brother-Paul]

No where in the Bible does it say we, humans, go to heaven.

When we die our body goes back to the earth, the spirit of the born again believers go to heaven.

In the beginning God came down into the Garden of Eden, we are told that He walked in the garden in the cool of the day. God was with man on earth at this time.

Then through Adam's sin God cursed the earth and returned back to heaven, the third heaven, which is His abode.

God sent His one and only son to earth... God with us Emmanuel

Matthew 1:22-25 (NKJV)
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,
25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

But Jesus has to go back to heaven to be with the Father

John 16:5-12 (NKJV)
5 "But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, 'Where are You going?'
6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

And He ascended as he said he would, but He will come again as we know...

Acts 1:9-11 (NKJV)
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

Until Christ returns all saved souls, those born from above, are ambassadors for Christ, we have His work to do until he 'Returns in Glory'

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 (NKJV)
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Christ who is in heaven with the Father, will Return for His own, those born from above. He will descent from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with 'the trumpet call of God'

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NKJV)
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

This brings us to brother B-A-C's comments, we meet with the Lord in the air, then where do we go?

The answer I think, just sharing my thoughts, love to hear everey one else's thought on this, 'it depends when the Rapture occurs'

But we are told clearly...
v17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

If at this point we will always be with the Lord, surely this sounds like everything is done that is said to be done. The last day!

In many verses in John 6, Jesus says "I will raise them up at the last day".

John 6:39 (NKJV)
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

John 6:40 (NKJV)
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:44 (NKJV)
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 (NKJV)
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 (NKJV)
Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

So could it be, we are raised up on the last day, to be with Christ in the air, at the point the heaven and earth is made new and the 'New Jerusalem' comes down from heaven onto the earth, just as John saw it and was told to write it down. We at that point enter the New Jerusalem for the banquet and are with the Lord forever.

I do believe when Jesus said he was going to create a place for us (born again believers) these rooms/mansions will be in the New Jerusalem, possibly around the internal perimeter as every room will be looking at the throne in the middle of the New Jerusalem, the Holy City. On earth!

John 14:1-3 (NKJV)
1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.
2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

No where in the Bible does it say we go to heaven, if someone can show me I would love to read it, the Bible always refers to 'God with us'.

God created earth for man, God wants to be with man on earth, Emmanuel God with us, first in the Garden of Eden, second when Christ came to earth, third when he returns and we will be with him forever.

Just trying to add together what we know so far, please add your thoughts also. Together we are the Body of Christ, the ekklesia, we will all come together to be with our Lord in this wonderful New Jerusalem, we will all be neighbours, closer neighbours than we are now.

 

[Sue D.]

Isaiah 40, I believe it is, indicates that it is the current Jerusalem restored

I think we're getting two events and two places confused.

The New Jerusalem is the future place that we refer to as eternal life in heaven. God will be bringing That down from heaven at the very end of time. Revelation 21. Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. The, I , John, saw the Holy City, New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

This event is different than anything else.

Brother-Paul just summed it up fairly well. And, honestly -- there are some things we Don't Need to know all the specifics of. We trust Christ as our Savior in the here and now -- as believers -- when we die -- our physical body will be buried or cemated or whatever happens to cause our physical death. We / our spirit/ will be with Christ. As believers -- the Holy Spirit stays within us until we are safe with Jesus Christ. Where ever He is -- we will be with Him. Upon the happening of the Rapture of the Church ( body of believers) -- no one except the Father knows when that will happen -- in that instant of time both the dead believers and the living believers will get snatched up and out of this world. We will be with Jesus Christ. The marriage supper of the Lamb will be taking place in heaven and the wrath of God will descend upon those left in this world. Then the next event will be the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ to this earth for His 1,000 yr reign when satan will be in the abyss and not able to interfere with anyone or anything And then satan is loosed again for a short time. Some more - final confrontation between good and evil. Good obviously wins. Great White Throne judgement. People thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone. Eternity begins for them and New Jerusalem is brought down and Our eternity begins.

The mission for born-again believers is to share the Gospel of salvation NOW while people alive still have opportunity to hear and accept or reject.

 

[Hekuran]

No where in the Bible does it say we, humans, go to heaven.

When we die our body goes back to the earth, the spirit of the born again believers go to heaven.

In the beginning God came down into the Garden of Eden, we are told that He walked in the garden in the cool of the day. God was with man on earth at this time.

Then through Adam's sin God cursed the earth and returned back to heaven, the third heaven, which is His abode.

God sent His one and only son to earth... God with us Emmanuel

Matthew 1:22-25 (NKJV)
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,
25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

But Jesus has to go back to heaven to be with the Father

John 16:5-12 (NKJV)
5 "But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, 'Where are You going?'
6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

And He ascended as he said he would, but He will come again as we know...

Acts 1:9-11 (NKJV)
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

Until Christ returns all saved souls, those born from above, are ambassadors for Christ, we have His work to do until he 'Returns in Glory'

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 (NKJV)
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Christ who is in heaven with the Father, will Return for His own, those born from above. He will descent from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with 'the trumpet call of God'

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NKJV)
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

This brings us to brother B-A-C's comments, we meet with the Lord in the air, then where do we go?

The answer I think, just sharing my thoughts, love to hear everey one else's thought on this, 'it depends when the Rapture occurs'

But we are told clearly...
v17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

If at this point we will always be with the Lord, surely this sounds like everything is done that is said to be done. The last day!

In many verses in John 6, Jesus says "I will raise them up at the last day".

John 6:39 (NKJV)
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

John 6:40 (NKJV)
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:44 (NKJV)
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 (NKJV)
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 (NKJV)
Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

So could it be, we are raised up on the last day, to be with Christ in the air, at the point the heaven and earth is made new and the 'New Jerusalem' comes down from heaven onto the earth, just as John saw it and was told to write it down. We at that point enter the New Jerusalem for the banquet and are with the Lord forever.

I do believe when Jesus said he was going to create a place for us (born again believers) these rooms/mansions will be in the New Jerusalem, possibly around the internal perimeter as every room will be looking at the throne in the middle of the New Jerusalem, the Holy City. On earth!

John 14:1-3 (NKJV)
1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.
2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

No where in the Bible does it say we go to heaven, if someone can show me I would love to read it, the Bible always refers to 'God with us'.

God created earth for man, God wants to be with man on earth, Emmanuel God with us, first in the Garden of Eden, second when Christ came to earth, third when he returns and we will be with him forever.

Just trying to add together what we know so far, please add your thoughts also. Together we are the Body of Christ, the ekklesia, we will all come together to be with our Lord in this wonderful New Jerusalem, we will all be neighbours, closer neighbours than we are now.

That makes perfect sense. Ties together the key passages in a way that does justice to them all.

 

[Hekuran]

I think we're getting two events and two places confused.

The New Jerusalem is the future place that we refer to as eternal life in heaven. God will be bringing That down from heaven at the very end of time. Revelation 21. Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. The, I , John, saw the Holy City, New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

This event is different than anything else.

Brother-Paul just summed it up fairly well. And, honestly -- there are some things we Don't Need to know all the specifics of. We trust Christ as our Savior in the here and now -- as believers -- when we die -- our physical body will be buried or cemated or whatever happens to cause our physical death. We / our spirit/ will be with Christ. As believers -- the Holy Spirit stays within us until we are safe with Jesus Christ. Where ever He is -- we will be with Him. Upon the happening of the Rapture of the Church ( body of believers) -- no one except the Father knows when that will happen -- in that instant of time both the dead believers and the living believers will get snatched up and out of this world. We will be with Jesus Christ. The marriage supper of the Lamb will be taking place in heaven and the wrath of God will descend upon those left in this world. Then the next event will be the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ to this earth for His 1,000 yr reign when satan will be in the abyss and not able to interfere with anyone or anything And then satan is loosed again for a short time. Some more - final confrontation between good and evil. Good obviously wins. Great White Throne judgement. People thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone. Eternity begins for them and New Jerusalem is brought down and Our eternity begins.

The mission for born-again believers is to share the Gospel of salvation NOW while people alive still have opportunity to hear and accept or reject.

Still the concept of rapture makes no sense. Why ever would it be good to zoom off to heaven at the precise moment that Jesus returns to earth to reign in glory?

 

[Brother-Paul]

Jerusalem doesn't just exist in a some meta-spiritual way. Muslims and unbelievers of all kinds live there.
There is some debate about Melchizedek king of Salem. Jerusalem is actually made up of two words. Salem (Shalom) means peace.
Yet there are few places in the world where more wars were fought.

Psalm 122:1-9 (NKJV)
1 I was glad when they said to me, "Let us go into the house of the LORD."
2 Our feet have been standing Within your gates, O Jerusalem!
3 Jerusalem is built As a city that is compact together,
4 Where the tribes go up, The tribes of the LORD, To the Testimony of Israel, To give thanks to the name of the LORD.

5 For thrones are set there for judgment, The thrones of the house of David.

6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: "May they prosper who love you.
7 Peace be within your walls, Prosperity within your palaces."
8 For the sake of my brethren and companions, I will now say, "Peace be within you."
9 Because of the house of the LORD our God I will seek your good.

Shalom

The Temple was destroyed, the Jews scattered to the four corners of the earth to protect the race, God's chosen people.

But it was prophesied they will return, and they did, they still are. 14 May 1948 Israel became a state again, but now we are in the time of the Gentiles, the end times are different to OT times. The Palestinians were encouraged and moved to the Holy Land from the early 1900, 'to claim' the land as theirs. The devil knows what is written in scriopture, some things he will accept, some things he will not accept. The reason there is so much unrest in Israel now is due to the Palestinians and the muslim's claiming what is theirs, not accepting what the one true living God says. The other reason is they hate the Jews, sadly God's chosen people are the most hated people on earth, punished for being Jews, punished by God for their errors. But despite all this God's will will be done, exactly as it is written. PTL

There will be wars and rumours of wars, in Israel and the world, God's people keep flood back to their land, only to be surrounded by countries on all sides who hate them, to be under continuous threat, never knowing when a rocket will get through the iron dome, not trusting the Iranians and with good cause, not trusting the Syrians, the Jordinians, the Turks, Hamas, PLO, Isis and more, constantly wondering and praying, shouting to God, 'how long oh Lord'. Most people would move away or not go to a place like this, but it is like a magnet to them.

Deuteronomy 6:4-13 (NKJV)
4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.
6 "And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart.
7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up.
8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
10 "So it shall be, when the LORD your God brings you into the land of which He swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give you large and beautiful cities which you did not build,
11 houses full of all good things, which you did not fill, hewn-out wells which you did not dig, vineyards and olive trees which you did not plant--when you have eaten and are full--
12 then beware, lest you forget the LORD who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
13 You shall fear the LORD your God and serve Him, and shall take oaths in His name.

Shalom

 

[Brother-Paul]

Still the concept of rapture makes no sense. Why ever would it be good to zoom off to heaven at the precise moment that Jesus returns to earth to reign in glory?

Thank you brother, that is how I see this also. It doesn't make sense.

And as brother B-A-C's puts it, we are lifted up to be with the Lord in the air... then what? Where do we do then?

Bless you brother

 

[Hekuran]

Thank you brother, that is how I see this also. It doesn't make sense.

And as brother B-A-C's puts it, we are lifted up to be with the Lord in the air... then what? Where do we do then?

Bless you brother

Jesus return to earth as a triumphant king returns home. The citizens race out to meet him as he draws near and they join a procession back to the palace.

Or a middle eastern wedding party going out to greet the groom.

We return to solid ground to live and reign and worship in Christ's presence.