The "elect"

[Admon Mikha'el]

who said that it was my decision to make? I am getting the impression that you dont know the Holy Spirit and particularly Jesus Christ. I like it when I am being attacked like this ( it happens very often) this tells me I am in the truth and on the right path. The enemy is horrified when he comes across people like me, and will try anything to tear us down, they wont succeed of course.

Sir..Its ALWAYS your decision...You may be called but YOU decide...That's free will. I know the Holy Spirit...we talk a lot. I know Jesus and He knows me. Sorry to disappoint you sir, You are not being attacked. People try to reason with you, not attack you. Of course, as you chose to be a priest, you can choose now. YOU are the master of your own future. That's free will....I get the impression you don't really know the Holy Spirit...

 

[complete]

Hi Dave,

You're welcome! It's my position that believers become a part of Israel when they become believers. My caution, as I said to B-A-C, is that we don't automatically assume that when we see "the elect" in Scriptrue that it refers to both Jew and Gentile. For instance, in context, "the elect" in Roman's 11:7 is a reference to the Jews. Speaking to the Gentiles Paul breaks it down between the elect and the rest who were hardened. However, they were all Jews

It's cool when the stuff starts jumping off the page isn't it? That's what has brought me to many of the positions I hold. Someone pointed out a different perspective and all of sudden I saw it everywhere.

Hello @Butch5,

With respect to you, I must challenge your thinking here, for you say that, 'it's my position that believers become a part of Israel when they become believers'. During the Acts period this was indeed so, because salvation was 'of the Jews', as our Lord told the lady at the well, in John 4:22. Believers during that period were grafted into the Olive Tree of Israel in order to make Israel jealous and seek to emulate them . However, when Israel finally went away into the darkness of unbelief at their final rejection of Christ, both in the land and in the dispersion, then 'salvation was sent to the Gentiles' (Acts 28:28), for they would hear it.

Then the revelation of God concerning the present administration was given to Paul to administer as God's Steward, and made known in his later epistles, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon, (written from prison at Rome) concerning the church which is the Body of Christ, of which He is the Head. In which believers, both Jew and Gentile, were made one body in Christ, independent of Israel as a nation. Israel no longer being first, they were an equality, a unity created in Christ Jesus, a joint body in Christ their Head.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

* The early epistles of Paul, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Romans, Hebrews, were written during the forty years of the Acts period, and therefore reflect the truth preached during that period. It was not until the end of that period that the divine revelation was given to Paul concerning the mystery of the church which is His Body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.' (Ephesians 1:22-23).

 

[B-A-C]

* The early epistles of Paul, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Romans, Hebrews, were written during the forty years of the Acts period, and therefore reflect the truth preached during that period. It was not until the end of that period that the divine revelation was given to Paul concerning the mystery of the church which is His Body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.' (Ephesians 1:22-23).

Hmmm... 1Cor 12 talks more about the "body" (the church) than any other in the Bible (by Paul or anyone else). Also no one knows if Paul wrote Hebrews, it is assumed by many he did, but no one knows for sure.
The Divine revelation ( Galatians 1:12; )was given to Paul before Galatians 1:16; (not from flesh and blood) he was there for 3 years. ( Galatians 1:18; )
There is no "different" dispensation during or after Acts.

 

[complete]

Hmmm... 1Cor 12 talks more about the "body" (the church) than any other in the Bible (by Paul or anyone else). Also no one knows if Paul wrote Hebrews, it is assumed by many he did, but no one knows for sure.
The Divine revelation ( Galatians 1:12; )was given to Paul before Galatians 1:16; (not from flesh and blood) he was there for 3 years. ( Galatians 1:18; )
There is no "different" dispensation during or after Acts.

Hello B-A-C,

A body with it's separate parts is used in 1 Corinthians 12, as you say, but only as an illustration of the distribution of spiritual gifts within the Corinthian church. It is not the church which is His Body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all of Ephesians 1. That body is spoken of as a joint body, with Christ as it's head, and there are no 'uncomely' parts, or any that are less honourable, as in 1 Corinthians 12; for all is an equality, a unity. That could never be the case with the Acts church, prior to Israel being laid aside (temporarily) in unbelief, for Israel was always 'first', and had a prior position.

When 1 Corinthians was written the church which is the Body of Christ was 'hid in God' (Ephesians 1:9;Colossians 1:26) and revealed to Paul by divine revelation at the end of the Act period. The Lord had told Saul, on the Road to Damascus, ' But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; ...' (Act 26:16) Showing clearly that there would be a further 'appearing' in which further light would be given for Paul to witness to and administer. Paul tells us of this in Ephesians 3, in which two mysteries (or secrets) were revealed. The mystery of Christ, made known to all the apostles and prophets (Ephesians 3:4-6), and a mystery made known to Paul alone:-

'That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body,
and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel:
Whereof I was made a minister,
according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me
by the effectual working of His power.
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given,
that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery,
which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,
who created all things by Jesus Christ:'
(Eph 3:6-9)

* He ministered this further truth in Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon.

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

With respect to you, I must challenge your thinking here, for you say that, 'it's my position that believers become a part of Israel when they become believers'. During the Acts period this was indeed so, because salvation was 'of the Jews', as our Lord told the lady at the well, in John 4:22. Believers during that period were grafted into the Olive Tree of Israel in order to make Israel jealous and seek to emulate them . However, when Israel finally went away into the darkness of unbelief at their final rejection of Christ, both in the land and in the dispersion, then 'salvation was sent to the Gentiles' (Acts 28:28), for they would hear it.

Then the revelation of God concerning the present administration was given to Paul to administer as God's Steward, and made known in his later epistles, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon, (written from prison at Rome) concerning the church which is the Body of Christ, of which He is the Head. In which believers, both Jew and Gentile, were made one body in Christ, independent of Israel as a nation. Israel no longer being first, they were an equality, a unity created in Christ Jesus, a joint body in Christ their Head.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

* The early epistles of Paul, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Romans, Hebrews, were written during the forty years of the Acts period, and therefore reflect the truth preached during that period. It was not until the end of that period that the divine revelation was given to Paul concerning the mystery of the church which is His Body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.' (Ephesians 1:22-23).

Hi Chris,

My first question would be, can you show this from Scripture? My second question would be, if this is true what, happened to those believers who were grafted into Israel? My third question, and maybe the most important, would be, what is their hope? What is the hope of these Christians that you say are in this "present administration"?

Remember, Paul said in Galatians 3 that those who were in Christ were Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. He said in Romans 8,

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Rom. 8:16-17 KJV)

They're joint heirs with Christ because they have been grafted into Israel. As heirs they too will inherit the promise. Paul makes it pretty clear that the inheritance is based on being Abraham's seed. If one is not in Israel they are not Abraham's seed and obviously not part of the inheritance. So, again, I would ask what is the hope of these believers in this "present administration"? I'm not aware of any other hope in the Scripture for the believer.

 

[backNforth]

hey Butch who do you say the elect are?

I believe the elect are Israel.

Note that we have shifted from "elect" to "Israel."

The question now is, who is Israel?

 

[complete]

Complete said (reply #83)
Hello @Butch5,

With respect to you, I must challenge your thinking here, for you say that, 'it's my position that believers become a part of Israel when they become believers'. During the Acts period this was indeed so, because salvation was 'of the Jews', as our Lord told the lady at the well, in John 4:22. Believers during that period were grafted into the Olive Tree of Israel in order to make Israel jealous and seek to emulate them . However, when Israel finally went away into the darkness of unbelief at their final rejection of Christ, both in the land and in the dispersion, then 'salvation was sent to the Gentiles' (Acts 28:28), for they would hear it.

Then the revelation of God concerning the present administration was given to Paul to administer as God's Steward, and made known in his later epistles, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon, (written from prison at Rome) concerning the church which is the Body of Christ, of which He is the Head. In which believers, both Jew and Gentile, were made one body in Christ, independent of Israel as a nation. Israel no longer being first, they were an equality, a unity created in Christ Jesus, a joint body in Christ their Head.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

* The early epistles of Paul, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Romans, Hebrews, were written during the forty years of the Acts period, and therefore reflect the truth preached during that period. It was not until the end of that period that the divine revelation was given to Paul concerning the mystery of the church which is His Body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.' (Ephesians 1:22-23).

Hi Chris,

My first question would be, can you show this from Scripture? My second question would be, if this is true what, happened to those believers who were grafted into Israel? My third question, and maybe the most important, would be, what is their hope? What is the hope of these Christians that you say are in this "present administration"?

Remember, Paul said in Galatians 3 that those who were in Christ were Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. He said in Romans 8,

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Rom. 8:16-17 KJV)

They're joint heirs with Christ because they have been grafted into Israel. As heirs they too will inherit the promise. Paul makes it pretty clear that the inheritance is based on being this "present administration"? I'm not aware of any other hope in the Scripture for the believer.

Hello @Butch5,

Thank you for responding as you have with direct questions for me to answer.

1) Can you show this from Scripture?
2) If this is true what happened to those believers who were grafted into Israel?
3) What is their hope?
4) What is the hope of the members of the church which is His Body?

1) Can you show this from Scripture?
During the approximately 40 years of the Acts period, following the salvation of Cornelius and his household, and the outpouring of the holy spirit upon Gentile believers (Acts 10-11:18), which was done to provoke Israel to Jealousy (Romans 11:11 & 14), and for no other reason at that time. They were grafted into Israel's Olive Tree (Romans 11:11-24) in order to stimulate growth in an ailing tree. They partook of the 'root and fatness' of the Olive Tree (Romans 11:7), and the blessings of Abraham (Romans 4:8-11; 13-25), They also shared in Abraham's hope (Romans 4:13)

Apart from the believing remnant, Israel (in the land) had reject the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah ( Prophet and King - Matthew 12:41-42), Then during the 40 years of the Acts period, following Pentecost, the Apostles to the circumcision (Galatians 2:7-9) ministered the gospel to the Jews of the dispersion (or among the nations), but at Acts 28:18-31, (though warned by Paul in Acts 13:40,) following the quotation by Paul of Isaiah 6:9-10 in Acts 28:25-28, the Jews of the dispersion also 'departed' from the truth concerning the Lord Jesus Christ, which Paul had expounded to them, and in verse 28 we are told that salvation was sent to the Gentiles (formerly salvation being of the Jews - John 4:22 only).

Isaiah 6:9-10 is quoted on three occasions - by our Lord in Matthew 13:14-15, and John 12:40 and by Paul here in Acts 28, and on each occasion it was at a time of crises and rejection. It is cited by our Lord as the reason He no longer spoke directly to the People, but resorted to the use of parables, :for the knowledge they contained concerning the mysteries of the Kingdom would be made known directly only the disciples, to whom the word of Isaiah 6:9-10 did not apply, for they themselves did have ears to hear and eyes to see, The rulers sought to kill Him, and attributed the work of the Spirit within Him to that of Beelzebub the prince of Demons. In John 12:40 our Lord again quoted Isaiah 6:9-10, for though He had done many miracles before them the people still 'believed not on Him', so fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah 6:9-10 . So you see, these three occasions are important moments in the history of the nation, and should not be dismissed without investigation.

* This is as far as I can go at the moment, Butch5, for I am tired. I have sought to answer the first question in relation to my entry- reply #83,quoted above. I will come back and answer questions 2-4 tomorrow (God willing)

* With my apology to the originator of this thread for introducing something which could be deemed to be unrelated to the subject intended.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

Thank you for responding as you have with direct questions for me to answer.

1) Can you show this from Scripture?
2) If this is true what happened to those believers who were grafted into Israel?
3) What is their hope?
4) What is the hope of the members of the church which is His Body?

1) Can you show this from Scripture?
During the approximately 40 years of the Acts period, following the salvation of Cornelius and his household, and the outpouring of the holy spirit upon Gentile believers (Acts 10-11:18), which was done to provoke Israel to Jealousy (Romans 11:11 & 14), and for no other reason at that time. They were grafted into Israel's Olive Tree (Romans 11:11-24) in order to stimulate growth in an ailing tree. They partook of the 'root and fatness' of the Olive Tree (Romans 11:7), and the blessings of Abraham (Romans 4:8-11; 13-25), They also shared in Abraham's hope (Romans 4:13)

Apart from the believing remnant, Israel (in the land) had reject the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah ( Prophet and King - Matthew 12:41-42), Then during the 40 years of the Acts period, following Pentecost, the Apostles to the circumcision (Galatians 2:7-9) ministered the gospel to the Jews of the dispersion (or among the nations), but at Acts 28:18-31, (though warned by Paul in Acts 13:40,) following the quotation by Paul of Isaiah 6:9-10 in Acts 28:25-28, the Jews of the dispersion also 'departed' from the truth concerning the Lord Jesus Christ, which Paul had expounded to them, and in verse 28 we are told that salvation was sent to the Gentiles (formerly salvation being of the Jews - John 4:22 only).

Isaiah 6:9-10 is quoted on three occasions - by our Lord in Matthew 13:14-15, and John 12:40 and by Paul here in Acts 28, and on each occasion it was at a time of crises and rejection. It is cited by our Lord as the reason He no longer spoke directly to the People, but resorted to the use of parables, :for the knowledge they contained concerning the mysteries of the Kingdom would be made known directly only the disciples, to whom the word of Isaiah 6:9-10 did not apply, for they themselves did have ears to hear and eyes to see, The rulers sought to kill Him, and attributed the work of the Spirit within Him to that of Beelzebub the prince of Demons. In John 12:40 our Lord again quoted Isaiah 6:9-10, for though He had done many miracles before them the people still 'believed not on Him', so fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah 6:9-10 . So you see, these three occasions are important moments in the history of the nation, and should not be dismissed without investigation.

* This is as far as I can go at the moment, Butch5, for I am tired. I have sought to answer the first question in relation to my entry- reply #83,quoted above. I will come back and answer questions 2-4 tomorrow (God willing)

* With my apology to the originator of this thread for introducing something which could be deemed to be unrelated to the subject intended.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Thanks for the reply Chris, however, I don't see how this shows that the Gentiles are not grafted into Israel. If we look at all that Paul says on the subject we find that the true Israel was never all of the physical seed of Abraham but rather to a part of Israel, those who would believe. Believers aren't grafted into the physical nation of Israel, they are grafted into, the Israel of God, as Paul puts it.

 

[complete]

Thanks for the reply Chris, however, I don't see how this shows that the Gentiles are not grafted into Israel. If we look at all that Paul says on the subject we find that the true Israel was never all of the physical seed of Abraham but rather to a part of Israel, those who would believe. Believers aren't grafted into the physical nation of Israel, they are grafted into, the Israel of God, as Paul puts it.

Hello @Butch5,

Thank you for responding. Perhaps you would give me your reasons for believing that believers are still being grafted into the Olive Tree, following the departure of the nation of Israel into unbelief, by reference to the Scriptures written following that event, namely, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon, which contain the record of the revelation of God given to Paul at the end of the Acts period. The Olive tree is representative of Israel in it's entirety, upon which there were believing branches, and unbelieving branches also, which are described as being broken off because of unbelief, and the Gentiles grafted in their place, though should those branches come to believe they would be grafted back in (Romans 11:11-24), for God has not cast away His People. Israel ceased to be a nation in AD70 and were scattered among the nations, their temple in Jerusalem destroyed.

I answered your question number one, requesting Scriptural confirmation for what I had said in reply#83, I will answer the other three later today, as I have to do something else at the moment:-

2) If this is true what happened to those believers who were grafted into Israel?
3) What is their hope?
4) What is the hope of the members of the church which is His Body?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

Thank you for responding. Perhaps you would give me your reasons for believing that believers are still being grafted into the Olive Tree, following the departure of the nation of Israel into unbelief, by reference to the Scriptures written following that event, namely, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon, which contain the record of the revelation of God given to Paul at the end of the Acts period. The Olive tree is representative of Israel in it's entirety, upon which there were believing branches, and unbelieving branches also, which are described as being broken off because of unbelief, and the Gentiles grafted in their place, though should those branches come to believe they would be grafted back in (Romans 11:11-24), for God has not cast away His People. Israel ceased to be a nation in AD70 and were scattered among the nations, their temple in Jerusalem destroyed.

I answered your question number one, requesting Scriptural confirmation for what I had said in reply#83, I will answer the other three later today, as I have to do something else at the moment:-

2) If this is true what happened to those believers who were grafted into Israel?
3) What is their hope?
4) What is the hope of the members of the church which is His Body?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

My reason for believing they are still grafted in is that Paul said they were and I don't see anything that would indicate that that has changed.

Regarding question one, I'm not seeing an argument from Scripture. It appears to me that you're drawing an inference. Is that correct?

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

My reason for believing they are still grafted in is that Paul said they were and I don't see anything that would indicate that that has changed.

Regarding question one, I'm not seeing an argument from Scripture. It appears to me that you're drawing an inference. Is that correct?

Hello @Butch5,

Thank you for responding so quickly. Paul also wrote the epistles which followed that of Romans, after receiving further revelation from God, in which nothing is said regarding the Olive Tree of Israel. However you and I obviously have differing understanding about just what the Olive Tree represents, so it is difficult to continue further with this.

* In regard to the response I made regarding the first question asked, I gave you Scriptures to validate what I had previously said in reply#83. I have no reason to infer anything, for the Scriptural records and historical events provide their own evidence.

2) If this is true what happened to those believers who were grafted into Israel?
This was a time of persecution, of martyrdom, and of scattering among the nations.

3) What is their hope?
They looked, like Abraham for a city made without hands, which will come down from heaven to the New Earth, and the Millennial kingdom.

4) What is the hope of the members of the church which is His Body?
The hope of the members of the church which is His Body, is in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus, as described in Ephesians.

* Well, Butch, I feel that we can go no further with this, not here in this thread at least. Though there is much more which could be said. Perhaps at another time, in a designated thread, yes?

Thank you
With love In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Note that we have shifted from "elect" to "Israel."

The question now is, who is Israel?

Hello @backNforth,

 

[complete]

Note that we have shifted from "elect" to "Israel."

The question now is, who is Israel?

Hello @backNforth,

I have inadvertently derailed the thread, I apologise for that.

Yes, the Scripture refer to 'The Elect' . This thread is seeking to establish to which people this refers.
Israel as a nation are referred to as the elect of God, However the word 'elect' means 'chosen', and therefore the subject of election broadens to include the redeemed of other callings, and for other purposes in the plan of God.

The nation of Israel are the children of Israel, born of Jacob (Israel), (Genesis 21:12; Romans 9:7 & Hebrews 11:18).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Why do we make a distinction between Jew and Greek when Paul clearly tells us there is non all through out the NT

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Romans 10:12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11
Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.


Now we have Paul an apostle to the gentiles giving instructions on how to be a good solider of Christ. Now Paul is enduring all thing for everyone who is coming to Christ is the way I see it. He is giving instructions to everyone.

2 Timothy 2:10
10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
.11 The saying is trustworthy, for If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him;if we deny him, he also will deny us
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful for he cannot deny himself.

'For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God,
and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto Himself,
above all the nations that are upon the earth.'
(Deuteronomy 14:2)

Hello @Dave M,

In Scripture the distinction between the children of Israel and the nations (Gentiles) is kept clear and distinct, because Israel was never to be counted among the nations (Numbers 23:9). This nation, Israel, was created by God through Isaac, born to Abraham as the child of promise, a miraculous birth, and on through Jacob (named Israel), to whom the twelve tribes were born who comprise it. Therefore it is distinct from all other nations.

Only in Christ is there no distinction made between Jew and Gentile.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

My reason for believing they are still grafted in is that Paul said they were and I don't see anything that would indicate that that has changed.

Regarding question one, I'm not seeing an argument from Scripture. It appears to me that you're drawing an inference. Is that correct?

Hi @BUTCH,

Forgive me, but what is it exactly that you believe I am inferring?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

Thank you for responding so quickly. Paul also wrote the epistles which followed that of Romans, after receiving further revelation from God, in which nothing is said regarding the Olive Tree of Israel. However you and I obviously have differing understanding about just what the Olive Tree represents, so it is difficult to continue further with this.

* In regard to the response I made regarding the first question asked, I gave you Scriptures to validate what I had previously said in reply#83. I have no reason to infer anything, for the Scriptural records and historical events provide their own evidence.

2) If this is true what happened to those believers who were grafted into Israel?
This was a time of persecution, of martyrdom, and of scattering among the nations.

3) What is their hope?
They looked, like Abraham for a city made without hands, which will come down from heaven to the New Earth, and the Millennial kingdom.

4) What is the hope of the members of the church which is His Body?
The hope of the members of the church which is His Body, is in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus, as described in Ephesians.

* Well, Butch, I feel that we can go no further with this, not here in this thread at least. Though there is much more which could be said. Perhaps at another time, in a designated thread, yes?

Thank you
With love In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

Sure, I'd be happy to discuss it in another thread.

When you mentiomed the Scriptures you gave books. I was hoping you'd explain how you understood these things. Just posting Scripture doesn't help unless we know how each other understands that Scripture. If we understand it differently then it's not evidence to make the case.

You said that nothing is mentioned of the Olive Tree after Romans. If that was the basis for your statement then you've drawn an inference. Sure the Olive Tree isn't mention but neither is anything that would suggest people aren't grafted into the Olive Tree.

Also you said that the hope of those in this "present administration" was the city made without hands. That's the promise to Abraham. If those in this "present administration" aren't grafted into Israel they aren't Abraham's seed and aren't heirs. What in Scripture would entitle them to this city.

Finally, on number 4 you said the hope for these Christians was the Heavenly places in Ephesians. However, properly translated that would read heavenly things, not places and it is referring to the Jews, physical Jews. Ephesians 1:3-12 is what is known as a Hebraism. It's a praise to God. In ths instance it's for what He has done for Israel.

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

Sure, I'd be happy to discuss it in another thread.

When you mentioned the Scriptures you gave books. I was hoping you'd explain how you understood these things. Just posting Scripture doesn't help unless we know how each other understands that Scripture. If we understand it differently then it's not evidence to make the case.

You said that nothing is mentioned of the Olive Tree after Romans. If that was the basis for your statement then you've drawn an inference. Sure the Olive Tree isn't mention but neither is anything that would suggest people aren't grafted into the Olive Tree.

Also you said that the hope of those in this "present administration" was the city made without hands. That's the promise to Abraham. If those in this "present administration" aren't grafted into Israel they aren't Abraham's seed and aren't heirs. What in Scripture would entitle them to this city.

Finally, on number 4 you said the hope for these Christians was the Heavenly places in Ephesians. However, properly translated that would read heavenly things, not places and it is referring to the Jews, physical Jews. Ephesians 1:3-12 is what is known as a Hebraism. It's a praise to God. In ths instance it's for what He has done for Israel.

Hello @Butch5,

You appear to have misunderstood me in every respect. I suggest you read reply #92 again, and see what I actually did say.

Also your interpretation of Ephesians 1:3-12 is totally wrong. I fear we have nothing to say to one another if that is what you do to Scripture. What a shame!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

You appear to have misunderstood me in every respect. I suggest you read reply #92 again, and see what I actually did say.

Also your interpretation of Ephesians 1:3-12 is totally wrong. I fear we have nothing to say to one another if that is what you do to Scripture. What a shame!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

That's why I asked you to explain what you meant.

My understanding of Ephesians 1:3-12 isn't wrong. I'd be happy to walk through it with you if you'd like. I'm not sure what you mean by, "if that is what you do with Scripture". What I do is read it in context. if we look at the opening verses, Paul uses first and second personal plural pronouns, "we, us, our", and "you, your". This indicates that he is referencing two groups of people. We also see this in his opening statement.

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: (Eph. 1:1 KJV)

I've written a commentary on this passage of Scripture which explains it in more detail. Ephesians 1

 

[Butch5]

Hi @BUTCH,

Forgive me, but what is it exactly that you believe I am inferring?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

You said that the Olive Tree isn't mentioned after Romans. I said if the basis for your statement was that the Olive Tree isn't mentioned after Romans that your claim would be an inference.

 

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Hello @Butch5,

You appear to have misunderstood me in every respect. I suggest you read reply #92 again, and see what I actually did say.

Also your interpretation of Ephesians 1:3-12 is totally wrong. I fear we have nothing to say to one another if that is what you do to Scripture. What a shame!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hello @Butch5,

Forgive me for over-reacting, but I had spent a long time composing and referencing my response to you, and to have you misappropriating what I said was upsetting.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris