The "elect"

[complete]

Complete said:-
Eklektos G1588
From G1586; meaning select; and by implication favourite
Translated: - chosen, elect.

Hello Butch5,

The word ' Elect' is found in the prison epistles of Paul, - [written after receiving the revelation of God concerning the Mystery, that Gentiles should be fellow-heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel (Ephesians 3:6), and Paul given the grace 'to preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, Who created all things by Jesus Christ.' (Ephesians 3:8-9)] - in Titus 1:1; 2 Timothy 2:10; Colossians 3:12. These were written to Gentile believers, for Christ was 'in' (or among) them, their hope of glory. In 'the new man' there is 'neither Jew nor Greek, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, Bond nor free,: but Christ is all and in all' (Colossians 3:11).

'Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved,
bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;'
(Col 3:12)

' Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes,
that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.'
(2 Timothy 2:10)

'Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ,
according to the faith of God's elect,
and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;'
(Tit 1:1)

* The believers at Colossi were addressed as 'the saints and faithful brethren in Christ'.
Timothy is addressed by Paul, as his own 'son' in the faith, Titus also.
Paul refers to himself to Titus as an Apostle of Jesus Christ according to the faith of God's elect.

* The common factor in relation to all of these believers was that they were 'in Christ' in whom there is neither Jew nor Greek, for Christ is all in all.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

I thought I knew where you were going with this until the end when you said there is neither Jew nor Geek. I would submit that the phrase, neither Jew nor Greek, is a term to stress equality. I wouldn't think that Paul is denying their ethnicity, I don't think you would either, correct? What am I missing?

Hello again, @Butch5,

The whole point of the entry was to show that the word translated 'Elect' and 'chosen', is used in the epistles (quoted) of believers 'in Christ', so the word translated elect is not only a term used of Israel alone, as you maintain. That believers in the Body of Christ regardless of their ethnicity, are all one in Christ Jesus, and are elect according to the foreknowledge of God.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

'For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
Who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.'
(Rom 9:3-5)

Hello @Butch5,

Yes! Praise God! They had already been done! It was a finished work, Lets take a look at what they are:-

'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:' (Eph. 1:3)

'According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: ... ' (Eph.1:4)

'Having pre-destinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself,
according to the good pleasure of His will,' (Eph.1:5)

'To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in The Beloved.' (Eph 1:6)

'In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace;'
Wherein He hath abounded toward us' (Eph 1:7-8a)

'In all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will,
according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ,
both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: (Eph 1:8b-10)

'In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him
Who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will: ((Eph 1:11)

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Eph 1:12)

* What a wonderful list of the blessings which are ours in Christ Jesus our risen Lord!
* Or do you in fact believe that these blessings, which are all spiritual blessings, and not the blessings 'of basket and store' (Deut 28:5) associated with the Kingdom of Israel, are not in fact ours in Christ Jesus?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

They weren't promises. They were completed acts of God before there were Christians. Before there were any Christians God gave Isrsel and inheritance. He made His will known to them. He chose them to be holy and blameless. He had made them highly favored. The Beloved was a term Moses coined for Israel. How can this be about Christian's when there were none? Again, these aren't promises, they were completed acts of God.

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

I responded to your reasoning concerning the personal pronouns in Ephesians 1:1-11 in reply#101 (now quoted above, so I will not repeat that.

* The epistle to the Ephesians, and that of Colossians, is addressed to the 'saints' and 'faithful in Christ Jesus'. 'The saint' here are described as 'the faithful' and are 'in Christ Jesus'. As saints they have been redeemed, called, sanctified and assured of glory, and are seeking to faithfully walk worthy of the calling they have received.

* The opening verses of Ephesians is threefold and deals with:-

The Will of the Father - 1:3-6.
The Work of the Son - 1:7-12
The Witness of the Spirit - 1:13-14

Each section is devoted to one phase of the truth and is the charter of the Church which is His Body,' the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.' (Ephesians 1:22-23): taking us back to, 'before the foundation of the world' (1:4) and on to the future day of redemption (1:14 & 4:30). This redemption comes under the heading 'the Work of the Son'. For He alone is the Mediator. He alone the Redeemer for He alone offered Himself without spot an offering and a sacrifice for sin. The Spirit's seal and earnest follows and does not precede this great redemptive work; the Witness of the Spirit combines the promise given before age times (2 Tim. 1:8-10) & Eph. 1:4) with the Redemption accomplished by Christ.

What does the believer inherit? - 'All spiritual blessings'.
Where will this inheritance be enjoyed? - 'In heavenly places'.
When was this will made? - 'Before the foundation of the world'.
Who will inherit? - Those who receive 'The Adoption'.
Why did the Father so choose? - 'The good pleasure of his will.

@Butch5,
I disagree with your treatment of Ephesians 1:1-14.
I acknowledge with grateful thanks to God for the truth you have quoted in Ephesians 2:11-19, but do not agree with your treatment of it.
I do not, as I have said, agree with your interpretation of the use of personal pronouns in Ephesians 1:1-14.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

Hi Chris,

You can disagree , that's your prerogative, however, I didnt make up the rules of grammar. I just have to follow them like everyone else if I want to correctly understand what is being said. For instance, the conjunction "and" brings two things together. Paul opened Ephesians with the statement, to the saints and the faithful in Jesus Christ. He didn't say to the saints who are the faithful in Jesus Christ. The grammar requires two groups here. That's not my opinion. It's required by the grammar of the text. I've also pointed out the two groups are required by the use of first and second person pronouns. Again, that's not my opinion that's the grammar.

 

[Sue D.]

@Butch5 -- there were believers back in the Old Testament. They looked Forward to the cross -- some believed and some didn't. Just like today -- we look Back at the cross -- some of us believe and accept -- some don't and reject.

While it's true that Jesus Christ wasn't born until Matthew's Gospel. But He was predicted back in Isaiah.

The Lord God / the Lord / Holy Spirit coming upon people and then leaving them was frequent in the Old Testament. They had Isaiah and the other prophets to listen to.

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

Israel ceased to be a nation in AD70, it was scattered among the nations. The Olive Tree is a figure of Israel (Jeremiah 11:16, Hosea 14:6), on which there are branches both believing and unbelieving, the believing branched were broken off but not cast away, and the believing gentiles were grafted into the tree to revive the tree into new growth, by bringing Israel to repentance, by jealousy and the desire to emulate them.

When Israel failed to repent, and continued in unbelief, they went away into the darkness of unbelief (Acts 28:17-31), Jerusalem and the temple destroyed and Israel was scattered. There was therefore no longer an Olive Tree to be grafted into. Their repentance now awaits another yet future day.

Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus were written just prior to that event, marked by Isaiah 6:9-10, quoted in Acts 28:28, while Paul was in prison, and provided the knowledge, Divinely revealed to Paul, concerning the administration of the church following this upheaval. This knowledge was 'hid in God' prior to it's revelation, and is therefore not the subject of the epistles written prior to it by Paul. Therefore Paul refers to the content of this new administration that he was called to minister as, 'the unsearchable riches of Christ', (Ephesians 3:8) for they cannot be found elsewhere in Scripture, either in the Old Testament Prophets, or in the other writings in both Old or New Testament Scriptures.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Why are you assuming that Paul received the revelation when he wrote Ephesians? How do you know he didnt receive it when he was with Christ?

Can you give me Scripture showing that the Olive Tree is no more?

Also, Paul speaks of the 'Israel of God'. This is believers. Why wouldn't this be the Olive Tree?

 

[Sue D.]

Hi Chris,

You can disagree , that's your prerogative, however, I didnt make up the rules of grammar. I just have to follow them like everyone else if I want to correctly understand what is being said. For instance, the conjunction "and" brings two things together. Paul opened Ephesians with the statement, to the saints and the faithful in Jesus Christ. He didn't say to the saints who are the faithful in Jesus Christ. The grammar requires two groups here. That's not my opinion. It's required by the grammar of the text. I've also pointed out the two groups are required by the use of first and second person pronouns. Again, that's not my opinion that's the grammar.

Butch5 -- a person can get so caught up with grammar / the proper use of it / that they miss what is being taught.

 

[Butch5]

Hello again, @Butch5,

The whole point of the entry was to show that the word translated 'Elect' and 'chosen', is used in the epistles (quoted) of believers 'in Christ', so the word translated elect is not only a term used of Israel alone, as you maintain. That believers in the Body of Christ regardless of their ethnicity, are all one in Christ Jesus, and are elect according to the foreknowledge of God.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

See, even that passage you just alluded to, 'elect according to the foreknowledge of God' is a reference to the Jews or Israel.

Look up that passage in Young's Literal Translation. In the Greek text the word "eklectos" (elect) is in verse one not verse 2. This is again an instance of translator bias. The passage actually says, to the elect sojourners of the Diaspora, according to the foreknowledge of God, grace to you and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The word simply means to choose or chosen. It can be used of anything. It doesn't have to be talking about God's people every time it appears. It's used of Christ too, but I don't think anyone would argue that He needed to be or was saved. It is the context that determines what it is referring to.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5 -- a person can get so caught up with grammar / the proper use of it / that they miss what is being taught.

Or they can ignore it and not properly understand what is being taught

 

[Sue D.]

@Butch5 -- "and not ' properly 'understand'" according to Who? Maybe it IS being 'properly' understood. Translator's bias? or simply not agreeing with You?

The Young's Literal Translation is also according to Young. Who you happen To agree with.

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5 -- "and not ' properly 'understand'" according to Who? Maybe it IS being 'properly' understood. Translator's bias? or simply not agreeing with You?

The Young's Literal Translation is also according to Young. Who you happen To agree with.

Actually, Sue, it's everyone has to agree with you. If they don't you get accusative. Several people have commented about you posts to others.

 

[Sue D.]

@Butch5 -- isn't it Nice to be so popular?!

 

[complete]

Complete said:-
'For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
Who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.'
(Rom 9:3-5)

Hello @Butch5,

Yes! Praise God! They had already been done! It was a finished work, Lets take a look at what they are:-

'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:' (Eph. 1:3)

Complete said in reply #108:-
'According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: ... ' (Eph.1:4)

'Having pre-destinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself,
according to the good pleasure of His will,' (Eph.1:5)

'To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in The Beloved.' (Eph 1:6)

'In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace;'
Wherein He hath abounded toward us' (Eph 1:7-8a)

'In all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will,
according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ,
both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: (Eph 1:8b-10)

'In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him
Who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will: ((Eph 1:11)

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Eph 1:12)

* What a wonderful list of the blessings which are ours in Christ Jesus our risen Lord!
* Or do you in fact believe that these blessings, which are all spiritual blessings, and not the blessings 'of basket and store' (Deut 28:5) associated with the Kingdom of Israel, are not in fact ours in Christ Jesus?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

They weren't promises. They were completed acts of God before there were Christians. Before there were any Christians God gave Isrsel and inheritance. He made His will known to them. He chose them to be holy and blameless. He had made them highly favored. The Beloved was a term Moses coined for Israel. How can this be about Christian's when there were none? Again, these aren't promises, they were completed acts of God.

Hello @Butch5,

These are the blessing which are ours in Christ Jesus, our risen Saviour, Lord and Head. The name 'Beloved' is spoken by God in relation to His Beloved Son, in Whom these blessings become ours, for we are placed 'in Him' by God the Father (1 Corinthians 1:30).

The word translated 'highly favoured' is only used one more in Scripture, and that is to Mary, the Lord's Mother, whom the angel Gabriel referred to as being 'highly favoured' or ('much graced'). We, Gentiles, who were far of from God, have been brought nigh to God, in Christ Jesus, which is evidential of God's wondrous grace, as bearing and delivering into the world God's only Begotten Son was for Mary.

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

You can disagree , that's your prerogative, however, I didnt make up the rules of grammar. I just have to follow them like everyone else if I want to correctly understand what is being said. For instance, the conjunction "and" brings two things together. Paul opened Ephesians with the statement, to the saints and the faithful in Jesus Christ. He didn't say to the saints who are the faithful in Jesus Christ. The grammar requires two groups here. That's not my opinion. It's required by the grammar of the text. I've also pointed out the two groups are required by the use of first and second person pronouns. Again, that's not my opinion that's the grammar.

'Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
to the saints which are at Ephesus,
and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:'
(Eph 1:1)
Hello @Butch5,

No we do not make up the rules of grammar, but we do have to interpret them correctly: and I believe you have not done so in this case. The interpretation of Scripture cannot be conducted by the rules of grammar alone, the context has to be taken into consideration.

This letter to the Ephesians was a circular letter which would have been received by believers from other assemblies too, So it is quite in keeping to say, ' ... to the saints which are at Ephesus, AND to the faithful in Christ Jesus'. Those who listened may not have been the saints which are at Ephesus', but they would have been 'the faithful in Christ Jesus'. So, no, there are not two groups but one, ONE BODY.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

'Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
to the saints which are at Ephesus,
and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:'
(Eph 1:1)
Hello @Butch5,

No we do not make up the rules of grammar, but we do have to interpret them correctly: and I believe you have not done so in this case. The interpretation of Scripture cannot be conducted by the rules of grammar alone, the context has to be taken into consideration.

This letter to the Ephesians was a circular letter which would have been received by believers from other assemblies too, So it is quite in keeping to say, ' ... to the saints which are at Ephesus, AND to the faithful in Christ Jesus'. Those who listened may not have been the saints which are at Ephesus', but they would have been 'the faithful in Christ Jesus'. So, no, there are not two groups but one, ONE BODY.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Can you please show me how I've applied these rules of grammar incorrectly?

 

[Butch5]

'Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
to the saints which are at Ephesus,
and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:'
(Eph 1:1)
Hello @Butch5,

No we do not make up the rules of grammar, but we do have to interpret them correctly: and I believe you have not done so in this case. The interpretation of Scripture cannot be conducted by the rules of grammar alone, the context has to be taken into consideration.

This letter to the Ephesians was a circular letter which would have been received by believers from other assemblies too, So it is quite in keeping to say, ' ... to the saints which are at Ephesus, AND to the faithful in Christ Jesus'. Those who listened may not have been the saints which are at Ephesus', but they would have been 'the faithful in Christ Jesus'. So, no, there are not two groups but one, ONE BODY.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—"

One group.... got it!

 

[complete]

Why are you assuming that Paul received the revelation when he wrote Ephesians? How do you know he didnt receive it when he was with Christ?

Can you give me Scripture showing that the Olive Tree is no more?

Also, Paul speaks of the 'Israel of God'. This is believers. Why wouldn't this be the Olive Tree?

'But rise, and stand upon thy feet:
for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose,
to make thee a minister and a witness
both of these things which thou hast seen,
and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;'
(Act 26:16)

Hello @Butch5,

I know because the content of the epistle to the Ephesians tells me so. It tells me that it's contents had been, 'hid in God since the world began' (Ephesians 3:9). Paul also says in Ephesians chapter 3 that as the Prisoner of Christ Jesus, he had been given a 'dispensation' of God, and that God had made known unto Him the mystery. Then, as an aside, he qualifies this by referring to 'the mystery of Christ' which had been made known, not only to Himself, but to the other Apostles and Prophets. The mystery of Christ had been the subject of the Old Testament Prophets, but which had been revealed to them to minister it. This they had been doing, and Paul refers to this, in order to qualify his claim to have received a further revelation, made to him alone, concerning the mystery, which had been hid in God, and was therefore 'unsearchable': not being the subject of the Old Testament Prophets, to whom it had not been revealed,. This He proceeds to describe:-

'That the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs,
and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ
by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister,
according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of His power.
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given,
that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery,
which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,
who created all things by Jesus Christ:
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places
might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,'
(Eph 3:8-10)

* Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians and 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus, contain further truth concerning this further ministry of Paul, received from the risen Christ, Who appeared unto Him as promised in the verse which heads this response. That Christ was 'in' (or 'among') them - the Gentiles, salvation having been sent to them (Acts 28:28.

* A comparison of what Paul had been preaching, prior to this revelation as revealed in these epistles, will confirm the unique nature of what Paul administers here. See for example the conversation Paul had with the Ephesians elders, prior to his journey to Jerusalem where prison awaited Him in Acts 20, for there he lists what he had preached to them, telling then that he had given them 'all the council of God' that he himself had received to date; and the content of Ephesians will be noted for it's absence. Therefore the revelation he was given, had to have followed that conversation, otherwise he could not have said in all honesty that he had given then all the council of God. No, there was more to be revealed, but he had not yet received it from the risen Christ.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Why are you assuming that Paul received the revelation when he wrote Ephesians? How do you know he didnt receive it when he was with Christ?

Can you give me Scripture showing that the Olive Tree is no more?

Also, Paul speaks of the 'Israel of God'. This is believers. Why wouldn't this be the Olive Tree?

Hello again, @Butch5,

The figure of the Olive Tree, of the nation of Israel, was used in chapter 11, to explain why the gentiles had been allowed to partake of Israel's blessings, and had received salvation and entry into the kingdom. Look at the description of the Olive Tree: it had branches described as 'believing' and 'unbelieving', does that sound like the Israel of God referred to in Galatians 6? (the only place this term is used) The unbelieving branches are broken off, but not cast away, and they have the opportunity to be grafted back in should they believe. The 'Israel of God' is comprised of believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, there are no 'unbelieving' amongst them.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello again, @Butch5,

The figure of the Olive Tree, of the nation of Israel, was used in chapter 11, to explain why the gentiles had been allowed to partake of Israel's blessings, and had received salvation and entry into the kingdom. Look at the description of the Olive Tree: it had branches described as 'believing' and 'unbelieving', does that sound like the Israel of God referred to in Galatians 6? (the only place this term is used) The unbelieving branches are broken off, but not cast away, and they have the opportunity to be grafted back in should they believe. The 'Israel of God' is comprised of believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, there are no 'unbelieving' amongst them.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Ok, point taken. However, I still see no evidence to suggest being grafted onto Israel changed.

Let me ask you, do you hold to a dispensationalist theology?

 

[complete]

See, even that passage you just alluded to, 'elect according to the foreknowledge of God' is a reference to the Jews or Israel.

Look up that passage in Young's Literal Translation. In the Greek text the word "eklectos" (elect) is in verse one not verse 2. This is again an instance of translator bias. The passage actually says, to the elect sojourners of the Diaspora, according to the foreknowledge of God, grace to you and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The word simply means to choose or chosen. It can be used of anything. It doesn't have to be talking about God's people every time it appears. It's used of Christ too, but I don't think anyone would argue that He needed to be or was saved. It is the context that determines what it is referring to.

'Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
through sanctification of the Spirit,
unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.'
(1Pet.1:2 )

Hello @Butch5,

I quite agree with what you say concerning this verse and to whom it is referring, because Peter was writing to the circumcision, who were scattered among the nations.
I also have no problem with your last paragraph. Yet you appear to have forgotten that you previously insisted that the term, 'the elect' referred to Israel only.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Can you please show me how I've applied these rules of grammar incorrectly?

Hello @Butch5,

I believe I have already have done so.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris