many or few?

[Beetow]

God gave Moses and thru him Israel all the moral guidance that they needed from
the moral law contained in the Decalogue, the ceremonial laws, and judicial laws.

The moral perception about which I have written, and about which Gen 3:22 speaks,
pertains to intuitive cognition; hence the need for law. It was given because humanity's
natural-born discernment of good and evil is unreliable.
_

 

[JerryfromMass]

The moral perception about which I have written, and about which Gen 3:22 speaks,
pertains to intuitive cognition; hence the need for law. It was given because humanity's
natural-born discernment of good and evil is unreliable.
_

Are you saying Adam and Eve were unable to discern between right and wrong prior to disobeying God?

 

[Sue D.]

@Beetow -- Genesis 3:22 "Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, let he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever ----- therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. --- So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life."
I included all of those verses for context.

When left on our own -- we tend to act in an unGodly way. And it also showed us the need For a Savior. No one can - on our own keep all those commandments and our Christian life is to show Christ to others. The Children of Israel were given all those directions to set them apart from the people groups around them.

 

[Beetow]

Are you saying Adam and Eve were unable to discern between right and wrong
prior to disobeying God?

I addressed that issue back in post No. 382. To spare you the inconvenience of
paging your way back there, I've brought it here.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Post #382
Apr 28, 2021

• Gen 3:5 . . God knows well that when you eat of [the tree of the knowledge of
good and evil] your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods, who know good
and evil.

Was the Serpent's prediction true? Yes; to a certain extent.

• Gen 3:22 . .Then the Lord God said: See, the man has become like one of us,
knowing good and evil.

Apparently human life was created minus a conscience; which is likely the reason
why some expositors refer to the time before the forbidden fruit incident as the age
of innocence.

FAQ: Did Adam know it was wrong to taste the forbidden fruit? And if so, how did
he know it was wrong without a conscience?

A: Right and wrong were irrelevant in the beginning. Adam's early life was
governed by Big Brother oversight.

Had Adam's creator instructed him to eat human flesh, then the responsibility for
his diet would've fallen upon God. In other words; God's sovereignty served as
Adam's conscience. As to whether cannibalism is morally right and/or morally
wrong wouldn't have been a matter for Adam to decide. (cf. Acts 10:9-15)

NOTE: A Big Brother society isn't necessarily a bad form of government just so long
as its bosses are good people; but when unscrupulous monsters like North Korea's
Kim Jong-Un have the reins, then Big Brother societies are a hell on earth.

• Isa 48:17 . . I am the Lord your God, who teaches you what is good and leads
you along the paths you should follow.
_

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

I addressed that issue back in post No. 382. To spare you the inconvenience of
paging your way back there, I've brought it here.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Post #382
Apr 28, 2021

• Gen 3:5 . . God knows well that when you eat of [the tree of the knowledge of
good and evil] your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods, who know good
and evil.

Was the Serpent's prediction true? Yes; to a certain extent.

• Gen 3:22 . .Then the Lord God said: See, the man has become like one of us,
knowing good and evil.

Apparently human life was created minus a conscience; which is likely the reason
why some expositors refer to the time before the forbidden fruit incident as the age
of innocence.

FAQ: Did Adam know it was wrong to taste the forbidden fruit? And if so, how did
he know it was wrong without a conscience?

A: Right and wrong were irrelevant in the beginning. Adam's early life was
governed by Big Brother oversight.

Had Adam's creator instructed him to eat human flesh, then the responsibility for
his diet would've fallen upon God. In other words; God's sovereignty served asy
Adam's conscience. As to whether cannibalism is morally right and/or morally
wrong wouldn't have been a matter for Adam to decide. (cf. Acts 10:9-15)

NOTE: A Big Brother society isn't necessarily a bad form of government just so long
as its bosses are good people; but when unscrupulous monsters like North Korea's
Kim Jong-Un have the reins, then Big Brother societies are a hell on earth.

• Isa 48:17 . . I am the Lord your God, who teaches you what is good and leads
you along the paths you should follow.
_

Wow....Conscience had nothing to do with it...Up until the young couple ate the fruit, they had no knowledge at all about sin and death...It was not a part of their makeup and not a factor at all in their thinking.... Then when they ate it, all of a sudden they knew what sin was and they fell under the curse that sin brings.... Adam and his lovely bride, and the rest of mankind cannot sin even now without Satan helps or tempts them to do so....

James 1:14-16
14 Rather, each person is being tempted whenever he is being dragged off and enticed by the bait of his own desire. 15 Then, having conceived, the desire gives birth to sin; and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death. 16 Don’t delude yourselves, my dear brothers.

Who uses a mans desires as bait to lure him into sin? Ya The tempter. Satan..... He's the one that helps us sin.
The law did not come for a long while after Adam fell...

But really sir....Its obvious that you've put a lot of thought into this.

 

[Sue D.]

I'll insert a comment from back then -- God had told Adam previously to Not eat of or touch the fruit. And after that , when God made Eve out of Adam -- they were both told not to. But the serpent worked on Eve and they Both listened to satan instead of obeying God's Word. Adam knew first and followed Eve's example. So they were Both choosing to disregard God's Word / warning and listened to satan instead.

Both of their senses of good and evil were immediately awakened. They were no longer in the state of innocence. They knew immediately that they were naked.

And they were Also told, that if they Did, they would die. They had no concept Of death.

But, upon Our reading of Scripture -- of That episode of life -- we know the why's and wherefore's Of.

So -- Now -- let JerryfromMass have his turn to respond.

 

[Beetow]

• 2Tim 3:1-3 . . This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For
people shall be . . .without natural affection

The Greek word translated "without natural affection" is astorgos (as'-tor-gos)
which means: hard-hearted towards kindred; viz: lacking in sympathetic
understanding i.e. unfeeling, pitiless, thoughtless, insensitive, cruel, and inhumane.

There are actually kids growing up in homes right here in the USA where their
parents never give them even one atta-boy. As a result, they grow up feeling ugly,
unwanted, stupid, useless, marginal, expendable, and unnecessary.

There are also kids growing up in homes where mothers never hug them nor bother
to take the time to forge a bond between mother and child. Thus they grow up with
reactive attachment disorder; feeling convinced that no one could possibly ever
love them or be their best friend forever. RAD kids grow up to become adults with
some serious trust issues.

Maybe you don't burn your kids with cigarettes, pour Tabasco sauce in their eyes,
or lock them in a hall closet without food and water for two days; but do you ignore
their opinions, demean them with denigrating labels, ridicule them, threaten their
lives, work them as slaves without compensation, deny them things just so you
won't appear to indulge them, and/or say "no" to their requests for no good reason
than that you don't want to seem weak and under their control?

Do you routinely abuse their human rights, and/or relegate them to the level of
livestock rather than bona fide human beings with feelings and a mind of their own?
Do you nurture within them a feeling of importance, of belonging in your home, or
do you make them feel like an invasive species and/or an uninvited guest? Kids pick
up on things like that.

UPDATE: 219 days have elapsed since my first comment. If the figures in post No.5
are in the ball park, then something like 13,605,156 new arrivals have checked into
the fiery sector of Hades since Oct 08, 2020.
_

 

[Sue D.]

@Beetow -- yes, all of that is true -- we all need God in our lives --possible only through Jesus Christ. Are your comments possibly a reflection of how you grew up? All those parents will be answering to God and that will Not be fun for them.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

• 2Tim 3:1-3 . . This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For
people shall be . . .without natural affection

The Greek word translated "without natural affection" is astorgos (as'-tor-gos)
which means: hard-hearted towards kindred; viz: lacking in sympathetic
understanding i.e. unfeeling, pitiless, thoughtless, insensitive, cruel, and inhumane.

There are actually kids growing up in homes right here in the USA where their
parents never give them even one atta-boy. As a result, they grow up feeling ugly,
unwanted, stupid, useless, marginal, expendable, and unnecessary.

There are also kids growing up in homes where mothers never hug them nor bother
to take the time to forge a bond between mother and child. Thus they grow up with
reactive attachment disorder; feeling convinced that no one could possibly ever
love them or be their best friend forever. RAD kids grow up to become adults with
some serious trust issues.

Maybe you don't burn your kids with cigarettes, pour Tabasco sauce in their eyes,
or lock them in a hall closet without food and water for two days; but do you ignore
their opinions, demean them with denigrating labels, ridicule them, threaten their
lives, work them as slaves without compensation, deny them things just so you
won't appear to indulge them, and/or say "no" to their requests for no good reason
than that you don't want to seem weak and under their control?

Do you routinely abuse their human rights, and/or relegate them to the level of
livestock rather than bona fide human beings with feelings and a mind of their own?
Do you nurture within them a feeling of importance, of belonging in your home, or
do you make them feel like an invasive species and/or an uninvited guest? Kids pick
up on things like that.

UPDATE: 219 days have elapsed since my first comment. If the figures in post No.5
are in the ball park, then something like 13,605,156 new arrivals have checked into
the fiery sector of Hades since Oct 08, 2020.
_

One can be abused big time as they grow up but that does not give excuse for anything....One always has a choice of how to deal with the damage done...I was not brought up, I was beat up....I choose to be a man that my God will be pleased with. I choose to obey Him and serve Him....Nobody is without excuse..So lets not give excuses...There are none. Everything in a persons life, all people, comes down to attitudes and choices....

 

[Brad Huber]

One can be abused big time as they grow up but that does not give excuse for anything....One always has a choice of how to deal with the damage done...I was not brought up, I was beat up....I choose to be a man that my God will be pleased with. I choose to obey Him and serve Him....Nobody is without excuse..So lets not give excuses...There are none. Everything in a persons life, all people, comes down to attitudes and choices....

I seem to remember a verse....

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Its in romans.

Now this is talking about "knowing" about God and either fearing Him or loving Him. But its truly applicable here as well. We were made to have choices and the consequences to follow be it good or bad, but even with bad results, that can humble us enough to turn back to God.

 

[Beetow]

• Rev 16:8-9 . .The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was
given power to scorch people with fire. They were seared by the intense heat and
they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused
to repent and glorify Him.

• Rev 16:10-11 . .The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast,
and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. Men gnawed their tongues in agony
and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they
refused to repent of what they had done.

You know what's missing in those two scenarios? The element of fright is missing.
The recipients of those acts of God actually get angry and resentful instead of
scared.

Back in the sixth chapter, people panic and actually pray to be buried alive rather
than face the wrath of God. But apparently by the time of the sixteenth chapter,
they're over it. Well; no surprise there.

The first time I heard of Jesus' return I got nervous because, at the time, I had a
lot to answer for. But the nervousness soon passed, and I became indignant
because I don't like being made afraid; so I can sort of understand the people's
change of mood between the sixth chapter and the sixteenth.

NOTE: The people in the sixteenth chapter are accused of refusing to repent and
glorify God. What might that mean? Well; I suggest it means that the sensible thing
to do in a situation like theirs is to fully agree we deserve it; like this:

"And I heard a voice from the altar saying: Yes, Lord God Almighty, your
punishments are true and just." (Rev 16:7)

UPDATE: 221 days have elapsed since my first comment. If the figures in post No.5
are in the ball park, then something like 13,729,404 new arrivals have checked into
the fiery sector of Hades since Oct 08, 2020.
_

 

[Sue D.]

@Beetow -- you now have us in the book of Revelation -- itś one of the more confusing, controvercial books in the Bible. It depends on whether or not a person is a Jewish person needing to be evanglized or one who is there to evangelize. If a person believes that born again people will be around for some of it or none of it.

You feel that the recipiants of those events should be scared rather than angry and resentful. Well -- itś sort of like -- those of us who are there at that time will react the way ẃe' react. There are those who believe that all those things will happen with everyone still here -- rather than the Church being taken up and out of it by Jesus Christ. I happen to be a pre-trib rapture person. And That has been interpreted as escapism. Well -- if is -- it's Godś choice to have Jesus Come back in the air for us. It wont be our timing.

So -- youŕe free to believe and feel whatever you choose to believe / feel.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I happen to be a pre-trib rapture person. And That has been interpreted as escapism.

I wouldn't say a pre-trib believer should be considered as thinking that way as a means of escapism, no, I think a pre-trib believer is resting their view to much on what happened in the OT, God brought the Jews out of Egypt, God lifted Noah and seven family members out through the great flood, Lot was brought put of Sodom etc.

A person who thinks pre-trib rely to much on these thought and fail to accept, or do not want to accepted the scriptures stating, very clearly, 'on the last day'

I believe the 'last day' because it is repeated so many times in the NT, Sue, but am ready now, oil in lamp and wick trimmed.

The last day is not my only consideration from scripture Sue, we read, warning after warning, we will suffer for our faith, I included a list in another thread a while ago of the number in the early church who were martyred for their faith in Christ.

Anyone who things pre-trib is unlikely to be ready for the Tribulation periods, and many could commit suicide as a result, which to take your own life, kill your own body, is a terrible sin.

If we view it could more than likely the last day we know we could be going through the Tribulation period, it doesn't make it easier, but we know God will guide us, even if we are martyred.

The question therefore could be, which is the 'last day'

Isaiah quotes 'the last day' as does Micah.

John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54, John 11:24 etc

The key is be ready now, Christ could come any day, any time of the day, (depending where in the world we live or are at the time)
But also be prepared to go through the Tribulation and Great Tribulation period, every think is in God's hands
We may be persecuted, we may be beaten or stoned to death, our throats could be slashed, we could be shot, we may be in a situation that will test our faith to the limit, martyrism.

O Lord hear our prayers.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

LOL Pretrib rapture is escapism?

1 Thessalonians 1:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Only a person who does not know the Word would say that Pretrib is escapism It's not escapism at all. It's the truth!!

 

[Brother-Paul]

LOL Pretrib rapture is escapism?

1 Thessalonians 1:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Only a person who does not know the Word would say that Pretrib is escapism It's not escapism at all. It's the truth!!

It was a comment, please read all before shooting down a statement.

I said.....
I wouldn't say a pre-trib believer should be considered as thinking that way as a means of escapism, no, I think a pre-trib believer is resting their view to much on what happened in the OT, God brought the Jews out of Egypt, God lifted Noah and seven family members out through the great flood, Lot was brought put of Sodom etc.

A person who thinks pre-trib rely to much on these thoughts and fail to accept, or do not want to accepted the scriptures stating, very clearly, 'on the last day'

The point is, that pre-tribbers are hoping that is what will happen, based on OT scriptures, and failing to accept what the NT says.


Now I could say, in reply to your third sentence... LOL AM, Only a person who does not love as Jesus commands us would reply as you have.

Instead I say. Thank you for your undesired compliment AM.

But if I do say that, I know, that would not appear to be in love either.

The point is sometimes in a reply to a post (the original one) I think it best to change tact on the first statement, come at it from a different angle, then conclude with the truth.

We are all different, but we are to, share The Word, and love one another as our Lord loves us.

Shalom

 

[JerryfromMass]

It was a comment, please read all before shooting down a statement.

I said.....
I wouldn't say a pre-trib believer should be considered as thinking that way as a means of escapism, no, I think a pre-trib believer is resting their view to much on what happened in the OT, God brought the Jews out of Egypt, God lifted Noah and seven family members out through the great flood, Lot was brought put of Sodom etc.

A person who thinks pre-trib rely to much on these thoughts and fail to accept, or do not want to accepted the scriptures stating, very clearly, 'on the last day'

The point is, that pre-tribbers are hoping that is what will happen, based on OT scriptures, and failing to accept what the NT says.


Now I could say, in reply to your third sentence... LOL AM, Only a person who does not love as Jesus commands us would reply as you have.

Instead I say. Thank you for your undesired compliment AM.

But if I do say that, I know, that would not appear to be in love either.

The point is sometimes in a reply to a post (the original one) I think it best to change tact on the first statement, come at it from a different angle, then conclude with the truth.

We are all different, but we are to, share The Word, and love one another as our Lord loves us.

Shalom

Brother,

You wrote:

"Now I could say, in reply to your third sentence... LOL AM, Only a person who does not love as Jesus commands us would reply as you have.

Instead I say. Thank you for your undesired compliment AM.

But if I do say that, I know, that would not appear to be in love either.

The point is sometimes in a reply to a post (the original one) I think it best to change tact on the first statement, come at it from a different angle, then conclude with the truth."

You could have avoided looking like that which you seem to claim you tried to avoid by stating it in a private message to AM. Instead, you wiffed. Just food for thought.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Brother,

You wrote:

"Now I could say, in reply to your third sentence... LOL AM, Only a person who does not love as Jesus commands us would reply as you have.

Instead I say. Thank you for your undesired compliment AM.

But if I do say that, I know, that would not appear to be in love either.

The point is sometimes in a reply to a post (the original one) I think it best to change tact on the first statement, come at it from a different angle, then conclude with the truth."

You could have avoided looking like that which you seem to claim you tried to avoid by stating it in a private message to AM. Instead, you wiffed. Just food for thought.

So true and apologies

Bless you

 

[JerryfromMass]

So true and apologies

Bless you

Praise God. Amen.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Amen Jerry

 

[Sue D.]

Now -- If I could interject. My being a pre-trib person has Nothing to do with Old Testament happenings. It Does have to do with Daniel 9 :27 -- meaning that there is one more 7 yrs and that thereś no reason for the Church to feel the wrath of God. We´ve already accepted Him. And there has Always been tribulation for believers. Nothing new. But the wrath of God is for the Jews who have chosen to reject Him as their promised Messiah.

And there have always been antichrists but there Will be The Antichrist appearing mid way through the 7 yrs in the future.

Now -- maybe a mid-trib position would also work.

The pre-birth pangs are getting closer and more intense. Even as we speak. Israel , etc.

And to repeat --Iḿ very aware of the times in the Old Testament when God was With the people --Noah and the ark. God's plan / purpose through those times. We are where we are Now in This present time.