BunnyOnion
Active
I must be on his ignore list because I've already posted proof tongues is a prayer language. 1 Corinthians 14.
And too there is 1Corinthians 13.
Can One Pray in the Spirit Without Speaking in Tongues?
- Thread starter Admon Mikha'el
- Start date
And too there is 1Corinthians 13.
Admon Mikha'el
Active
What kind of question is this? Rude and arrogant and insensitive
Butch5
Active
This is a rebuke. Look at what he said. He said if you give thanks and no one knows what you're saying the other person isn't being built up. The one who speaks in tongues and no one understands him speaks to God because God is the only one who can understand what the guy is saying. At one point Paul says if the unlearned come into the church will they not think you are mad?
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? (1 Cor. 14:23 KJV)
He said he speaks in tongues more than all of them, yet he would rather speak five words that he understood than ten thousand words in a tongue. That's clearly a rebuke. Right after he said that, he says this,
Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. (1 Cor. 14:20 KJV)
He's telling them not to be children in understanding. In other words they didn't understand the purpose of tongues and were abusing it.
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. (1 Cor. 14:14-15 KJV)
Notice he said, if he prays in an unknown tongue, his spirit is praying but his understanding is unfruitful. Then he says, "what is it then". He concludes that he will pray with the spirit and with understanding. In other words, he's not going to pray in tongues, but rather a language that everyone understands. Likewise he will sing in a language that everyone understands. The purpose is so that he will not be unfruitful.
If we read this in context it's clearly a rebuke of this church.
The context of this passage is the apostles and their ministry.
This passage is speaking of Israel as I pointed out above.
Butch5
Active
Nothing in either of those passages says that tongues is a prayer language. First of all, tongues, in the Scriptures, refers to languages. These were known languages. They weren't specific to prayer
Butch5
Active
Yes, I'm well aware of that.
Admon Mikha'el
Active
Are apostles some special kind of person? Do they have an extra arm coming out of their foreheads? What makes them so special? An apostle is one who is sent on a mission...Like YOU....Like me, live everybody here
Butch the bunny is correct....1 cor 14 does speak of tongues being a prayer language...Read it! 2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. There's one verse there
BunnyOnion
Active
Good. Then you know tongues is a prayer language.
BunnyOnion
Active
1 Corinthians 14
www.biblegateway.com
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 14 - King James Version
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification...
Butch5
Active
What makes them so special is that they were specifically chosen by Jesus Himself.
This passage doesn't even mention prayer. He's speaking in the church. The problem is no one understands him except God.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. (1 Cor. 14:2-4 KJV)
Self edification is not a good trait in Christianity, edifying others, the church, is.
Butch5
Active
It's not a prayer language. Tongues were known languages. They were a sign to Israel. If tongues is a prayer language, why does Paul say it's for unbelievers? Are Christians supposed to pray to unbelievers?
Admon Mikha'el
Active
What makes them so special is that they were specifically chosen by Jesus Himself.
As were you, me and every other Christian....Jesus told us
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.
You were sent just like the rest of the apostles If you are a Christian...
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Wow...You don't know? Speaking to God is prayer....or one facet of prayer... If nobody understands when you are praying , that's all right...You're speaking to God and He does understand.
Butch5
Active
No, Jesus sent 12. You and I were not sent by Christ.
Paul wasn't writing an instruction manual. He was rebuking the church. If they spoke in tongues no one would understand them except God. That doesn't edify the church. This is all irrelevant as tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel. It was a sign that the judgment spoken of in Isaiah 28 and 29 was about to happen. That judgement happened in 70 AD. After the judgment had taken place there was no longer a need for tongues as the judgment they were announcing had past. That is why Paul said tongues would cease. It did
Admon Mikha'el
Active
Read vs 18
Paul never rebuked without teaching.....Remember what I said earlier about people who don't know enough to know they're wrong? You're wrong.
B-A-C
Loyal
In the same sentence he said wisdom and knowledge would cease, apparently they have.
Butch5
Active
Yeah, I remember what you said. If you'd read it in context rather than proof texting you'd see what it says.
JerryfromMass
Active
Curmudgeon.
Butch5
Active
Actually, he said prophecy and knowledge would cease. They did. However, he said prophecy and knowledge would cease when the maturity or completion would come. He used a different word regarding tongues. He used a verb in the middle voice meaning that tongues would cease of their own accord. The coming of the maturity or completion that would cause prophecy and knowledge to cease would have no effect on tongues.
B-A-C
Loyal
I don't think so. Can you show this in scripture without commentary?
1Cor 13:8; Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
When does this happen?
1Cor 13:9; For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
1Cor 13:10; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
Has the perfect come? Jesus was perfect, but He came before this was written.
Butch5
Active
Sure I can show it without commentary.
BGT 1 Corinthians 13:8 Ἡ ἀγάπη οὐδέποτε πίπτει· εἴτε δὲ προφητεῖαι, καταργηθήσονται· εἴτε γλῶσσαι, παύσονται· εἴτε γνῶσις, καταργηθήσεται
The gifts faded out as the apostles died off. According to history, writers in the second century said there was only a remnant of the gifts still around.
The Greek word that is translated perfect, means mature or complete. So, they knew in part and they prophesied in part, but when knowledge and prophecy were complete that which was in part was done away with.
Waggles
Loyal
In the end it matters not all the banter on scripture and cessationist unbelief
I believed the scriptures
I put my repentance into action and became born new again by water and Spirit
I spoke in tongues and continue to pray in the Spirit every day with zeal
signs and miracles accompany my faith and my walk
I attend a true Pentecostal church where the voice gifts of the Holy Spirit are operated decently and in order
Everybody has testimonies to their baptism in the Spirit and speaking in tongues
It matters not what the rest of you outside of Pentecost say or believe.
I believed the scriptures
I put my repentance into action and became born new again by water and Spirit
I spoke in tongues and continue to pray in the Spirit every day with zeal
signs and miracles accompany my faith and my walk
I attend a true Pentecostal church where the voice gifts of the Holy Spirit are operated decently and in order
Everybody has testimonies to their baptism in the Spirit and speaking in tongues
It matters not what the rest of you outside of Pentecost say or believe.