Why don't you believe in the Rapture?

[Rhema]

Paul never actually murdered anyone...

Well Stephen wasn't being made to smoke Marijuana...

(Acts 7:58 KJV) And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.​

​

An accomplice is still complicit in the act of murder itself, hence... a murderer.

(Acts 8:1 KJV) And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.​

I mean, C'mon man, even Paul admitted it:

(Acts 22:4 KJV) And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.​

( Guess nobody can die in prison, eh? )

He only dragged believers to the Sanhedrin

Okay... you rail at me about reading comprehension, but you do know that the word Sanhedrin is not in the Bible at all, Right ??? So, what's your proof that he "dragged believers to the Sanhedrin" ??

(Sheesh ..............)
.

I think I'm done until you can get a civil tongue in your mouth.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Wrong again...it is taught in Scripture:

Matthew 24:36-42
36 "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,
39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.
42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

Luke 17:34-35
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left.
35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left."

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all die, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

NOTHING in the scriptures you quoted even implies that the "day your Lord is coming" (Mat. 24:42) is seven years before he actually comes.

There are passages in the NT that address the rapture AND what you call "the gathering" which is at the end of the Great Tribulation - they are two separate events.

Prove it.

You belittle the phrase "the gathering" when that is the exact word Jesus used... GATHER (ἐπισυνάγω)

Link to Liddell Scott Lexicon for ἐπισυνάγω

Rhema
At least the word I'm using actually IS in the Bible.

 

[Rhema]

Wrong again...it is taught in Scripture:

(Sigh...)

Look at the one passage you quoted: (Look carefully - )

(Matthew 24:38-41 KJV) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.​

So who "knew not," and whom did the flood "take away" ?? (Hint, same people....)

Now who in the field was taken? And who was taken away at the mill? (Hint, also the same people....)

Rhema
(The bad ones.)

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings Brothers,

remember to try to focus on the subject more than on each other.

If i get it wrong, please, kindly show me with the level of intellect i need (given that i am wrong about it - whatever that is) and realize that making me feel inadequate or stupid and wrong all at the same time is not going to help my confidence in your teaching ability.

I know i was wrong once before, but i figured that out myself.

Knowing something dose not ever give the 'knower' the right to exercise lordship mentality... and this i am sure you all know.

Our Lord suggested being a servant... now, correct me if i am wrong, but a servant in my Lord's court/dining room/Kingdom would not conduct serving devoid of manners towards others. [please - yes there are parables where there were wicked servant(s) .... but i for one do not want to be amongst them]


The subject at hand is worth applying a jointed effort to, sharing in fellowship and allowing the Lord to lead and teach all, so please press on and remember to post in peace

Jesus is the Lord


Bless you all ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Now who in the field was taken? And who was taken away at the mill? (Hint, also the same people....)

but doesn't that go against the general consensus?

Are there more Scriptures to expand on this please? (you choose what 'this' refers to)


Bless you ....><>

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Well, don't wait from me...he is the one who said that you said it.

..

So you just repeat lies. This does not surprise me since you are just repeating the lie of a pre-trib rapture doctrine which is from other “carnally minded” men, and not from God.

By the way, repeating others lies is to be a partaker in other mens sins.

I’ll leave you to your strong delusion.

 

[Br. Bear]

So you just repeat lies. This does not surprise me since you are just repeating the lie of a pre-trib rapture doctrine which is from other “carnally minded” men, and not from God.

By the way, repeating others lies is to be a partaker in other mens sins.

I’ll leave you to your strong delusion.

Greetings,

can you please read my post above? ==> #64


Bless you ....><>

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Greetings,

can you please read my post above? ==> #64


Bless you ....><>

1 Timothy 5:20
Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

 

[Christ4Ever]

1 Timothy 5:20
Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Dear StewardoftheMystery,
I'm glad you read what my Brother in Christ and fellow Moderator @Br. Bear stated in his post, and acknowledge its contents with the appropriate Scripture.

Banning a member is not desired by anyone of us on staff and only used as a form of correction towards the miscreant. We are also of the hope that others will reconsider emulating such behavior that has caused others to be banned. Sometimes a general statement to all is necessary, since there is more than one culprit. Like the old saying goes "it takes two to tango".

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
P.S. My apologies if I jumped the gun so to speak in replying back to this member.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

That's funny, "rhema," the Bible teaches a catching away of the church, which came out before "the Brethren Church" was ever around. Again, the author of these anti-rapture books was a schizophrenic and, like many false prophets today and in the past, has about as much clout as the founders of the JW or Mormon churches.

...

Actually, my friend, the bible teaches the catching away of the 'bride' That is the catching away of those who have made themselves ready....They come out of the church.

 

[Dave M]

The Bible speaks plainly of the return of Christ and certain things have to take place as Paul tells us the great falling away takes place and the man of lawlessness will be revealed. Jesus does not return until these and other things take place.. according to my limited understanding.

So my question is how does one say Jesus comes back to take the church with him before these things take place??? That has never sat well with my understanding,, I think most people say well Jesus stays in the air so that does not count as him coming back?? that sounds like a technicality that is not so. I mean the clouds are part of the earth, if he is in the clouds he is on earth IMO.

Nowhere that I can find does the bible speak of Jesus returning at a surprising time? It will be a surprise and like a thief at night for those that do not know Jesus is what my understanding is. But for us who know Jesus, we will not be in the dark for that day to surprise us like a thief.

Another issue that I have is the book of revelation that talks about the tribulation and mentions saints throughout the whole book, now some men claim that these saints are tribulations saints and have come to know Christ after the rapture during the tribulation, yet NOWHERE in the bible does it say that. What we know is the Bible says clearly that the devil is allowed to conquer the saints, so we see the church is in tribulation,, WE DO NOT know when these people came to Christ. But when we read scripture it tells us there is a great falling away during end times, it also tells us that NO ONE repents during the tribulation so why does anyone conclude that people are coming to Christ during the tribulation??? So we are supposed to believe that people who are blinded by sin who will not live for Christ when things are good, all of the sudden see the light and are ready to die for christ during the tribulation??

Well, that's my thoughts, but guess what,, I do not know, as the bible is not clear on the subject, and the greatest theological minds on the planet can not agree on the subject. So if you and I do not see eye to eye, I still respect you as Christ-follower, and will not call you a false teacher.

 

[Rhema]

but doesn't that go against the general consensus?

Well.. Duh... (but since that might be mistaken as being rude ) ... indeed it does (go against the general consensus). But when was the majority ever right? If we need to go by the general consensus, we'd all better learn where the Pope lives, because there are more Catholics worldwide than you guys. The Protestant Church is dying. (And the Catholic Church in America is importing people across the Southern Border of the US to improve its numbers. )

Indeed, the Jewish people rejected the Gospel of Jesus precisely because it was against their general consensus. Paul only changed his mind because of a traumatic supernatural experience, and then couldn't get many of his Jewish brethren to believe, regardless of his excellent proofs that Jesus was the Messiah. The basic human drive is to BELONG to the tribe (the general consensus) even if that consensus is just blatantly wrong. It's easy to prove people wrong. Then they know it, and will hate you for it (no matter how nicely you say it).

And most Roman Gentiles rejected Christianity for the first 250 years or more because it was new, and the god of their world, the Roman Emperor, dictated the religious beliefs of his citizens... Until the Roman Emperor changed his mind (meaning Constantine).

A lot of what we (people in general) believe turns out to come from a "general consensus" - which is usually a thing merely adopted because we heard it from others.

In the passage from Matthew, Jesus likened the end of days to the days of Noah. If the bad people were "taken" off the face of the earth by drowning during the days of Noah, one doesn't do an abrupt switcheroo in logic and then think Jesus was saying the "good" people are to be taken off the face of the earth at the end of days.

Granted, Matthew 24 is a long chapter and Jesus touched on various elements of "the end," but we have a direct comparison as one can read here:

(Matthew 24:37-41 KJV) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.​

The "they" were eating and drinking and marrying and having kids, and most of the people on the entire planet "knew not" of any impending doom "until the flood came and took them all away." The good people remained upon the earth, and the bad people were taken away. Then Jesus talks about people at the coming of the Son of man. He doesn't say the good people are taken away. He says it's like in the days of Noe where the bad people are taken off the face of the earth. And yes, the angels are sent to gather up the remaining good people (the saved ones) from across the face of a devastated earth. Apparently to a place that would be inhabitable. Human have made SO much of the planet uninhabitable.

Give the above passage to someone who can read and think well and who doesn't have a bias or an agenda to prove. Ask them who is taken away at the end, and you'll get a logical and reasonable answer - the bad people.

Satan has a lot invested in Wrong Doctrine that comes from bad thinking.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Actually, my friend, the bible teaches the catching away of the 'bride' That is the catching away of those who have made themselves ready....They come out of the church.

So let me get this straight... you think what you just said is not an interpretation?

It's actually a perfect example of an interpretation.

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

It will be a surprise and like a thief at night for those that do not know Jesus

First, your entire post above was well written and greatly appreciated. (Bravo.) It addresses the OP and provides sufficient reasons for rejecting the current general consensus of believers going POOF in the night. (I was beginning to think I was all alone out here in the middle of the battlefield.)

As to the part I just quoted, it will also be a surprise to those who do know Jesus, but aren't prepared.

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[backNforth]

if you want the answer to the "rapture" question, simply study the RESURRECTION.

The rapture doctrine requires students of the scriptures to approach each relevant verse with certain preconceived notions about prophecy. If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ, the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be “gathered” at the second coming -- not some secret, invisible return that precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation. The problem isn’t in our understanding of the rapture, because the rapture as routinely taught today doesn’t even exist; the difficulty is in our understanding of the resurrection.

In John chapter five, Jesus tells us how God The Father has committed the power of resurrection to him. Jesus says “He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life...for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 6:24, 28, 29) According to these passages, apparently there are two resurrections: one for those “that have done good,” and a resurrection for those “that have done evil.”

In one of the parallel accounts, a verse in Luke has Christ himself saying that the believer shall “be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.” (Luke 14:14) Another proof text of this dual aspect of the resurrection is found in the book of Acts when the Apostle Paul was brought before the Roman governor Felix and charged with heresy by the Jews.

Paul stated that he believes, as the Jews did, “that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.” (Ezekiel 33:8, 4) A further example of this understanding of two resurrections is found in the Old Testament, when the prophet Daniel was instructed by the archangel Michael concerning the tribulation and the resurrection. In that instance, Michael said that in the time of the end, “many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:2)

Back in the New Testament book of Revelation, we find a reference to “the first resurrection.” (Rev. 20:5) This first resurrection clearly relates to believers in Jesus, for the text states that they “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:4)

In the same chapter, John (the writer of Revelation) says “the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years were finished.” (Rev. 20:5) Later in the chapter John says, “when the thousand years are expired...I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...and the dead were judged...” (Rev. 20:7, 12) These verses plainly state that there are two resurrections -- one for believers and one for unbelievers.

The Revelation passages further clarify that these two resurrections are separated by one thousand years; this being the period we commonly call the millennium during which the resurrected believers shall “reign with him a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:6)

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

So let me get this straight... you think what you just said is not an interpretation?

It's actually a perfect example of an interpretation.

Thanks,
Rhema

No, this is not an interpretation. Read what the bible says about the bride....As you told me...Do your own research...Prove me wrong. To them gave He to become the sons of God.....And the bride has made HERSELF ready.......Hugs on you.

 

[Rhema]

unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

Yeah... well... that's actually a real translation problem. The word "THE" (the direct article) is not in the Greek text:

John 5:29 - και εκπορευσονται οι τα αγαθα ποιησαντες εις (INTO) αναστασιν (RESURRECTION) ζωης (OF LIFE) οι δε τα φαυλα πραξαντες εις (INTO) αναστασιν (RESURRECTION) κρισεως (OF DEATH).​

Best not to structure an interpretation based upon direct articles from English that are not present in the initial manuscripts. The word 'the' isn't there. My take is that this is the same Resurrection, but into different "states" of being. (I'm reluctant to say "locations," as that brings an unintended reference into the text.)

Thanks,
Rhema

While I do have more to say, unfortunately I have a very packed weekend schedule, so likely won't be posting until Sunday evening at the earliest, but I wanted to get this reply out as soon as possible.

 

[Shaolin]

Well Stephen wasn't being made to smoke Marijuana...

(Acts 7:58 KJV) And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.​

​

An accomplice is still complicit in the act of murder itself, hence... a murderer.

(Acts 8:1 KJV) And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.​

I mean, C'mon man, even Paul admitted it:

(Acts 22:4 KJV) And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.​

( Guess nobody can die in prison, eh? )

In your own words..."C'mon, man!" There is a difference between actually cutting off a person's head, and standing there watching giving your approval (for example). Paul never stated that he actually killed anyone, only that he persecuted them "unto the death" by dragging them to the people who did actually murder them. Just admit that you messed up and lets move on...

Okay... you rail at me about reading comprehension, but you do know that the word Sanhedrin is not in the Bible at all, Right ??? So, what's your proof that he "dragged believers to the Sanhedrin" ??

Of course I know that...so what's your point? There are numerous Greek words not used in the NT...

I think I'm done until you can get a civil tongue in your mouth.

Rhema

Getting a little hinkie, aren't you? I haven't said one uncivil thing...so far... Playing games again?

..

 

[Shaolin]

NOTHING in the scriptures you quoted even implies that the "day your Lord is coming" (Mat. 24:42) is seven years before he actually comes.

OK...so NOW your reading comprehension is out the window! Read what I posted AGAIN...I didn't say anything about timing...I said these passages teach the catching away of the church. Period.

Prove it.

OK...but don't cry too hard afterwards:

The Rapture:.......................................................................................................................................................The Second Coming:
will translate all saved believers...............................................................................................................................there is no translation
translated saints go to heaven...................................................................................................................................translated saints return to earth
believers go up to heaven...........................................................................................................................................Christ and believers come down out of heaven
Christ does not come to the earth, He stops mid air..........................................................................................Christ comes to earth, steps on the Mt. of Olives and splits it into two
Earth is not judged........................................................................................................................................................Earth is judged and righteousness is established
the rapture is imminent (can occur at any time) and is signless.....................................................................follows definite predicted prophecies and signs
precedes the Great Tribulation (Day of God's Wrath).......................................................................................follows the Great Tribulation (concludes the day of wrath)
begins the Great Tribulation......................................................................................................................................begins the Millennial Kingdom of Christ
not mentioned in the OT anywhere.........................................................................................................................predicted in the OT by the prophets
only saved believers will see Him............................................................................................................................"every eye shall see Him"
no reference to satan....................................................................................................................................................satan is bound for 1000 years
Christ comes for His own............................................................................................................................................Christ comes with His own
Christ claims His bride (modeled after traditional Jewish marriage)............................................................Christ comes with His bride

Two entirely different end of times happenings. I am almost surprised that you don't see it - but then again, knowing what I know about you, I am not surprised.

You belittle the phrase "the gathering" when that is the exact word Jesus used... GATHER (ἐπισυνάγω)

I did not belittle the phrase at all...but keep it up...

Rhema
At least the word I'm using actually IS in the Bible.

LOL! Like that makes ANY difference whatsoever. You are playing games again, but it won't work...

..

 

[Shaolin]

(Sigh...)

Look at the one passage you quoted: (Look carefully - )

(Matthew 24:38-41 KJV) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.​

So who "knew not," and whom did the flood "take away" ?? (Hint, same people....)

Now who in the field was taken? And who was taken away at the mill? (Hint, also the same people....)

Rhema
(The bad ones.)

Almost, but not quite. In the Matthew version, we honestly cannot tell because of the context, PLUS you are allowing your bias to dictate your mind - the context here isn't who was taken and who was left, the point of what He is saying is that the event will come upon the earth suddenly without any warning. That is all...while in other passages it says the saved will be taken, and in others that the wicked will be gathered. You are not paying attention to the texts, but letting your bias tell you what the texts should say according to it, not Scripture.

..