First and the Last
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Let me ask this. Can God be divided?
No such thing as Eternal Son
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The Father and the Son are most certainly divided in person, but not in deity.
The Son is sitting right now at the right hand of the Father, two distinct persons.
They are not divided in deity, making them one God. But yet two distinct persons.
This is what we've been talking about that can't be explained by mortal man.
First and the Last
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When we read that "the Son is sitting at the right hand of the Father," it signifies a position of authority and honor rather than spatial separation or distinct personhood. This metaphorical language emphasizes the exalted status of Jesus Christ following His earthly ministry, where He reigns in glory and power as God manifested in the flesh.
In Oneness Pentecostal theology, we affirm the full divinity and humanity of Jesus Christ. We believe that Jesus is indeed God incarnate, fully God and fully man. However, we differ from traditional Trinitarian views in our understanding of the nature and manifestation of God.
Firstly, we do not reject the deity of Christ. On the contrary, we uphold that Jesus Christ is the one true God manifested in the flesh. Scriptures such as John 1:1, 14 ("In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us") and Colossians 2:9 ("For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily") affirm that Jesus embodies the fullness of God.
Secondly, the distinction we make is not between separate persons but rather between different manifestations or roles of the one God. We believe that God is one (Deuteronomy 6:4: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD") and that He has revealed Himself in various ways. As the Father, He is the Creator; as the Son, He is the Redeemer; and as the Holy Spirit, He is the Comforter and Sustainer. These are not separate beings but different ways in which the one God interacts with His creation.
Regarding the equality of Jesus with the Father, we fully agree that Jesus is equal in deity. In John 10:30, Jesus declares, "I and my Father are one," indicating His unity with the Father. This unity is not one of separate persons being united but of the one God's nature being fully present in Jesus Christ. Jesus’ statement in John 14:9, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father," further supports this understanding.
In conclusion, as a Oneness Pentecostal, I hold firmly to the belief that Jesus is God. We believe that the distinctions made in scripture between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not of separate persons but of the one God manifesting Himself in different ways. This belief maintains the absolute oneness of God while recognizing the full deity and humanity of Jesus Christ.
No need to argue it any further. We will never see eye to eye on this. But let me say two things.
First, I respect you as a Brother in Christ, and I'm sorry that we have this disagreement!
Secondly, I can't see the Oneness Theology getting around Matt. 3:16-17, where the distinct three persons of the Triune God are present. But I'm sure they will explain it away without a second thought.
"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
First and the Last
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According to this passage, the Son of God was baptized, the Spirit descended like a dove, and a voice spoke from heaven. Luke 3:22 adds the further information that “the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him.
To understand this scene, we must remember that God is omnipresent. Jesus is God and was God manifested in flesh while on earth. He could not and did not sacrifice His omnipresence while on earth because that is one of God’s basic attributes, and God does not change. Of course, the physical body of Jesus was not omnipresent, but His Full Deity was. Furthermore, although the fullness of God’s character was resident in the body of Jesus, the omnipresent Spirit of Jesus could not be so confined. Thus, Jesus could be on earth and in heaven at the same time (John 3:13) and with two or three of His disciples at any time (Matthew 18:20).
With the omnipresence of God in mind we can understand the baptism of Christ very easily. It was not at all difficult for God to speak from heaven and to send a manifestation of His Spirit in the form of a dove even while His human body was in the Jordan River. The voice and the dove do not represent different persons any more than the voice of God from Sinai indicates that the mountain was a second intelligent person in the Godhead.
Jesus was baptized as a means of manifesting Himself, or making Himself known, to Israel (John 1:26-27, 31). In other words, Jesus used the baptism as the starting point in His ministry. It was a public declaration of who He was and what He came to do. For example, at Christ’s baptism, John the Baptist learned who Jesus was. He did not know that Jesus really was the Messiah until the baptism, and after the baptism he was able to declare to the people that Jesus was the Son of God and the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29-34).
John 1:32-34 clearly states that the dove was a sign for the benefit of John the Baptist. Since John was the forerunner of Jehovah (Isaiah 40:3), he needed to know that Jesus was really Jehovah come in flesh. God had told John that the One who would baptize with the Holy Ghost would be identified by the Spirit descending upon Him. Of course, John was incapable of seeing the Spirit of God anointing Christ, so God chose a dove as the visible sign of His Spirit. Thus the dove was a special sign for John to let him know that Jesus was Jehovah and the Messiah.
Since Jesus was God Himself and a sinless man, an anointing by a sinful human and anointing with symbolic oil was not enough. Instead, Jesus was anointed directly by the Spirit of God. Thus, at His baptism in water, Jesus was officially anointed for the beginning of His earthly ministry, not by symbolic oil but by the Spirit of God in the form of a dove.
The baptism of Jesus does not teach us that God is three persons but only reveals the omnipresence of God and the humanity of the Son of God. When God speaks to four different people on four different continents at the same time, we do not think of four persons of God but of God’s omnipresence. God did not intend for the baptism to reveal to the monotheistic Jewish onlookers a radically new revelation of a plurality in the Godhead, and there is no indication that the Jews interpreted it as such. Even many modern scholars do not see the baptism of Christ as an indication of a trinity but as a reference to “the authoritative anointing of Jesus as the Messiah.”
First and the Last
Member
Believe me I also wish there wasn't such a division among us on the nature of God. I think the hardest thing to get past is using "distinct" and "separate", for an indivisible God, when talking about the nature and character of God. Those words alone mean separation.
If you look at Church history, monothelitism has been officially declared heresy several times.
It's right there in the rankings with the UR (universal restoration).
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I call it independence of action in the same character, nature, and essence of deity.
First and the Last
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The "independence of action" refers to how God can operate in these various roles simultaneously or separately while maintaining the same character, nature, and essence of deity. For instance, God as the Father is the Creator and Sustainer, God as the Son is the Redeemer who lived among us in human form, and God as the Holy Spirit is the Comforter who indwells and guides believers. Despite these differing roles, there is no division in God's essence or being; it is the same God acting in different capacities. I believe that, so really where are our differences?
Well, I was speaking of independence in the example of Matt. 3:16-17 where all three are in action separately, at the same time but for one common cause.
First and the Last
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I perfectly agree with that assessment.
"The concept of 'independence of action' refers to how the one God, maintaining the same character, nature, and essence, can operate in various roles either simultaneously or separately. For example, at Jesus' baptism as recorded in Matthew 3:16-17, we see the Father speaking from heaven, the Son being baptized, and the Holy Spirit descending like a dove. This demonstrates that God can perform distinct actions in these roles at the same time, all working together for a common purpose. Despite these differing roles and simultaneous actions, there is no division in God's essence or being; it is the same God acting in different capacities to fulfill His divine will.
Our difference is that when you use the word "God" you are speaking of one entity performing the actions.
I'm referring to "God" as three distinct persons performing the actions independent of one another. These three distinct persons are One God.
I can't go along with one entity at action in three roles. That is out of the question for the majority.
First and the Last
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If only we (which is very difficult at times) would examine Scripture and let it interpret itself aside from denominational and philosophical thought and private interpretation. Then we can better understand the nature of God. I try my best to list most prominent Scriptures but when I give my interpretation is derived from all scriptures on the subject.
Both our perspectives are deeply rooted in scripture and seek to honor the mystery of Christ's incarnation, but we approach it from different theological frameworks. Bridging this divide requires mutual respect, careful study of scripture, and a willingness to engage in dialogue that acknowledges the complexity of these doctrinal differences while seeking unity in essential Christian beliefs. Ultimately, we both affirm the centrality of Jesus Christ and His Full Divinity in the faith and share a common commitment to proclaiming Him as Lord and Savior, despite our theological distinctions.
Bill Taylor
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But you must reconcile the whole subject to find the truth.
Verses about the Trinity
The Trinity exists in 3 persons
1. Isaiah 48:16 “Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there.” And now the Lord God has sent me, and his Spirit.*
*The Son is speaking but refers to the Father and the Holy Spirit.
2. Matthew 3:16–17 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”
3. Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
The Father is God
4. John 6:27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.
5. Romans 1:7 To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.6. 1 Peter 1:1–2 To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
The Son is God
7. John 1:1 & 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
8. Romans 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
9. Colossians 2:9 For in him [Jesus] the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.
10. Hebrews 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.”
11. 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
The Holy Spirit is God
12. Genesis 1:2–3
The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
13. Acts 5:3–4But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God.”
14. 1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?
There is only one God
15. Deuteronomy 6:4Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
16. Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.”
17. Isaiah 45:5–6 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the Lord, and there is no other.
18. Galatians 3:20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
19. 1 Corinthians 8:4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.”
20. 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.21. James 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
collection found at The Trinity: 29 Bible Verses & Quotes about the Triune God
The way I see it, if we are trusting in the finished work of Christ for our salvation and not our own work, we are doing well.
The interpretation of Scripture is very important, but not nearly as important as finding our salvation in Christ.
You can get all the doctrines wrong, but if you get Jesus Christ right, you're going to make it into His Kingdom.
First and the Last
Member
pretty much if we flip our terminology when I say manifestations or roles and you say persons we are saying the same thing. If I said persons instead of manifestations I don't believe there would be a debate. I believe the Three manifestations can exist simultaneously and at the same time, because God is Omnipresent.
But yet we are so far apart. The Scripture definitely speaks of Oneness, but also speaks of distinct persons.
First and the Last
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I believe the Three manifestations (In biblical terms, "manifestations" refer to the visible or perceptible ways in which God reveals Himself to humanity. These manifestations can take various forms, including physical appearances, divine actions, or direct communications that make God's presence and attributes known to people (Jesus Christ being the ultimate visible expression of God). Throughout the Bible, God manifests Himself in different ways to interact with His creation, convey His will, and demonstrate His power and glory.) can exist simultaneously and at the same time, because God is Omnipresent.
Now I ask is anything wrong with what is written here?
I don't like the word manifestations in the way you are using it. That is the anti-trinitarian theology at work.
You can't place the Oneness theology into a Triune Godhead with three distinct persons. It will not fit.
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