Rhema
Active
Well then, good to know we all have something in common.Johanabrahams is as absurd as you on some points of Christianity.
No Human has Gone to Heaven but Jesus!
- Thread starter Rxlx
- Start date
You and Johanabrahams are both absurd?
Rhema
Active
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
- Genesis 2:3 KJV
Rhema
Active
(Well... speak for yourself.)
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
- Luke 1:6 KJV
Rhema
Active
It would be rather hard to append this phrase "in Jesus," in that neither person declared as Righteous in Luke 1:6 ever met Jesus, as he hadn't even been born yet.
But I do believe in the Righteousness of God wherein we can walk blameless. But I've not met many Christians who clearly understand the underlying aspects of such a thing. You might be interested in this book - (although I do plan to post on this topic at some point.)
The Hebrew Yeshua vs The Greek Jesus
An astonishing realization has recently gripped the Christian world: "Jesus Christ" was not a blond-haired, blue-eyed Gentile. Yeshua of Nazareth was raised in an observant Jewish family in a culture where the Torah (five books of Moses) was the National Constitution. Yeshua's teachings, which...
store.nehemiaswall.com
Oh I am sure it will get me kicked off faster than you can say ...
In short, though, I am an Acts 2:38 Christian. Period. There is no need for anything to be added thereafter, save that the new Church needed to understand that the Mercies of God extend to all people, including the Gentiles.
Jesus clearly taught us how our sins are to be forgiven so that we walk in the light (teachings) of our Saviour (Mat. 6:12 & Luke 11:4). Throughout the entirety of Jesus mission on earth, he taught that the Father forgives sin, not that He is paid for it (let alone by offering up a human blood sacrifice). A debt can be settled in one of two ways. It can be paid (after which there is nothing to forgive) or a debt can be forgiven, after which no payment is necessary.
Who is it that would deny the Father's sovereign power to forgive sin?
I'm still having trouble finding Christians who believe in Mat. 28:18.
Blessings,
Rhema
Rhema
Active
Yeah... whatever point you made, I certainly didn't follow it. Likely that this Paul's "New creature" is a creation by some kind of "revelation," (??) but for right now I think our view points are far apart enough for us to put this on hold.
Kindly,
Rhema
Rhema
Active
Revelation from God is sane, and understandable, not the incomprehensible things you have posted. I'm sure you think they convey meaning, but ... not really. And I still wonder if there's something lost in translation. Are you comfortable to say that English is your second language?
Well that's just absurd.
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
- Deuteronomy 30:19 KJVHow can one choose life if the Word FROM God can't be understood.
The book of Revelation is not in our canon - the only canon established by an Apostle (cf. The Church of the East).
And it shouldn't have been in yours (cf. Eusebius notes on the Council of Nicaea).
Hebrews is also not in our canon, but for different reasons. Appeals made to the book of Hebrews are summarily dismissed.
Why don't you just say that the Spirit has written the Law on our hearts? Instead, you wrote 46 words that meander all over the place, and don't actually make this point.
It doesn't. And it never did.
At some point, you will need to deal with this verse:
For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
- Jeremiah 7:22 NRSVWell I know about me. But truth be told, I don't know anything about you... other than the things you type that are mostly incomprehensible... almost New Age in nature.
But I'm beginning to know you from the fact that you had to add in words to the scripture. Why do you add in words? The phrase "forbearance to His death" is not found in scripture. If it is, then show me where. Since it is not, then you present scripture deceitfully by adding in words. No?
That's not what I said. And that's not what JESUS ever said either. Again, you are quite welcome to show me where JESUS said this. I ask every Christian I meet, and yet not one can answer.
However, given the direction that this conversation is heading, it will likely need to be moved over into a PM. There are things to be said that will send the children screaming in anguish, and I'd rather not do that.
Kindly,
Rhema
Rhema
Active
I guess I ought to thank you for agreeing with me that your posts make no sense.
Nope. Crazy wears off like stink.
You have a nice day.
KingJ
Loyal
Well it is the kind of doctrine that should not need scripture. Imagine getting married to your spouse and then telling them that they will not be and are not welcome in your house.
How do you, @B-A-C and @Rhema miss these? Are these scriptures torn out of your bible?
1. 2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Where does God live? A - Shanghai? B - New York? C- Heaven?
2. Rev 6:9-11 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
The altar mentioned in verse 9 is in heaven. Here is a link explaining this - The Altar in Revelation (see paragraph 4).
3. Phil 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,
What does citizenship mean? A - Illegal alien with no passport, B - resident with a passport who can come and go as they please?
4. 1 Thess 4:16-17 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
The Lord comes down from heaven, and He says we will be with Him forever, when He raptures us. Does that mean we are taken with Him at the moment to: A - Mars, B - Pluto or C - Heaven?
This statement was made at the time of Jesus. After the cross all qualified to be with God in heaven. I would expect you to know better BAC. Why would you push such a silly theory? Don't you see that you can stumble weak believers with it?
In the OT that was the case. See post # 114 here for why Luke 16 is not a parable - Works based salvation ??.
------------------------------
I am not going to discuss this topic any further with you three. I will just say that I cannot be more disappointed with so called Christians pushing a belief that serves only to stumble weak believers. If you cannot discern this kind of teaching is demonic, I pray you meditate on it in prayer with God. Imagine telling young believers that have given their lives to Jesus that they will not ever be with God in His home, heaven.
KingJ
Loyal
You are quoting a 'Mace' interpretation of that verse. Every other version speaks to a past tense event. ''David did not, hath not, ascended not''.
Until the resurrection nobody qualified to be in heaven. Everyone who had repented of their sins per Psalm 51:17 was separated in a place called Abraham's bosom. Waiting for the resurrection. See Luke 16:19-31. Jesus goes into a lot of detail.
As for the word 'grave' specifically mentioned in scripture, you actually need to do a thorough bible study on it. Please read this link, it is quite good at explaining why the 'grave' is not a place where dead souls are waiting judgement day. Rather it is an actual grave of dead bodies who are no longer attached to a spirit - Hell, Sheol, Hades, Paradise, and the Grave.
It is a very common mistake to make.
It is a very common mistake to make. And you sure made it.
No one goes to heaven as all the dead are in thier graves. Evil and good alike.
You quote Luke 16 but are unable to realise what verse 23 says and means: 23, 'And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.'
And Ecclesiastes 9:5 reads, “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.”
But you continue dreaming your pagan dreams. Burn some incense to a wooden idol and ask it if the dead are in their graves or not. It will probbaly seem to answer.
Jubulations49
Member
You forgot Enoch and Elijah, you dumb blueberry. Also, where is Moses? What became of the repentant thief on the cross? And where are Lazerous and Tabitha, you shoddy scholar? Man, your learning is SHALLOW! People who have already been resurrected in the gospels might also be ascended into heaven. You don’t know that they aren’t, in fact, you don’t know ANYTHING about ANYTHING.
Butch5
Active
I bolded and underlined the above words in your post. This speaks VOLUMES about your exegesis and approach to Scripture. This explains why we see all of those logical fallacies.Well it is the kind of doctrine that should not need scripture. Imagine getting married to your spouse and then telling them that they will not be and are not welcome in your house.
Butch5
Active
They are all in their graves.
Rhema
Active
Out of all the bizarre things you've said, I think you've topped them all with this one.
Rhema
Active
No time frame is given, nor is heaven specified as the location. Since you take Revelation to be literal, one could easily conclude that when one is absent from the body, one is then immediately present with the Lord in the New Jerusalem on Earth (in the future).
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
- Psalms 139:7-8 KJVSo "D" ... all of the above.
(Hope you learned something new...)
You can come and go into heaven as you please? (Well that's a new one.)
Sometimes, KJ, you trip yourself up with your own questions.
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
- Philippians 3:20 KJVSo what does conversation mean? Clearly you haven't quite studied this out. Let me see if I can help. "Conversation" G4175. Since the website for Tufts University is down, I provide an alternate LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for G4175
A. act of administration,
2. b. - generally, corporate body, association,
Our "association" our "governance" is by the heavens (ουρανοις is plural, seems the KJV forgot that). But you are quite welcome to parse the verse out for yourself - ημων γαρ το πολιτευμα εν ουρανοις υπαρχει εξ ου και σωτηρα απεκδεχομεθα κυριον ιησουν χριστον
Like I said, you trip yourself up with your own questions, which stem from wrong assumptions.
Where does the Lord go after we "meet him in the air" ?? The text does not say that he goes back to heaven, does it. If nothing else, he sets up a new earth upon which he then dwells and we with him. Unless y'all just stay in the air floating around somehow....
No thank you. Luke 16 is a parable, and I think @Butch5 stomped that one to death.
If I recall correctly, you had postulated that heaven is the nice part of hell.So what changed? God decided to reshuffle the deck of creation and render the OT false? I don't think so.
Well I'm not surprised that you would call me out and then stop up your ears. I replied because you asked (even if not nicely).
Well GOODY FOR YOU. Be disappointed all you'd like, but I would be inclined to agree with @Butch5 that you are the one causing weak believers to stumble, because after they learn from you and decide to check what is actually written, I don't think you'll be getting fan letters. Weak believers are those who teach things that are not actually written. (And I mean in the original Greek, of course.)
Imagine telling young believers that they will go to heaven only to have them find out that's not true. (Sad indeed.)
God bless,
Rhema
Rhema
Active
But you don't know that they are... and scriptures (from the OT) indicates otherwise. It's a shame what Greek philosophy did to Christianity.
Rhema
Butch5
Active
2 Corinthians 5:8 is often used to try to prove that Christians go to Heaven when they die. This is not the case, and this passage does not prove it. The passage is actually stating the opposite of what many Christians claim about this passage. Here is a breakdown of the passage.
Another passage that Christians often turn to in an attempt to prove that man lives on apart from the body is 2 Corinthians 5:8. It reads as follows.
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor. 5:8 KJV)
There it is! Absent from the body, present with the Lord. The passage is often misquoted. Often you’ll hear people say, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. However, that statement is not what the passage says and it’s wrong. That statement equates the two, being absent from the body and being present with the Lord. But, Paul didn’t use the word “is.” If we look at the passage it’s clear that Paul is stating a desire. He says he’s confident and willing. He didn’t say to be out of one state is to be in another.
However, again, we have people bringing their presuppositions to the text. Let’s look at the passage in context.
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. (2 Cor. 4:17-5:9 KJV)
Before we start breaking down this passage, we need to look at the background and what was happening at this time. There were some in the church at Corinth that were denying the Resurrection. Paul had addressed this in his first letter to this church.
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Cor. 15:12-18 KJV)
It was common for Greeks to reject the idea of Resurrection because they had grown up with the teachings of Plato. For the most part, the Greeks believed that man was an immaterial being that was trapped in a flesh body. They understood the flesh to be inherently evil and so the goal of life was to escape the flesh. Once the immaterial part of man escaped the body it would ascend into the heavens ultimately reaching what was known as the Pleroma, or fullness. So, with this idea that the flesh was inherently evil they rejected the idea of Resurrection. If the flesh was evil and they had finally escaped it, why in the world would they want to go back into it?
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. 32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. (Acts 17:31-32 KJV)
Corinth and Athens were sister cities. Athens was the seat of Greek philosophy. So, these ideas started to affect the church in Corinth. This is what Paul is addressing.
He starts out comparing our lives now with what is to come in the Resurrection. Compared to the glory that awaits the believer this life now is but a light affliction. He says we’re looking at those things that are not seen, not those that are seen. That’s the glory that awaits the believer. They are eternal things as opposed to temporal things. Then he writes of an earthly house versus a heavenly house. Again, he’s comparing the temporal with the eternal. Then he says,
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven2 Cor 5:2 KJV)
He talks about groaning in this current temporal state and desiring to be clothed with the eternal state. The Greek word “enduo” which is translated as “clothed upon” carries the idea of, putting on over. It’s like putting on a coat over one’s regular clothes. What Paul is saying here is that he groans to put on his eternal form over his temporal form. We can see this in what he says next.
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. (2 Cor 5:3 KJV)
He says if we’re clothed or clothed upon as he said previously, we shall not be found naked. What’s he talking about? What does he mean by being found naked? As we saw earlier, the Greeks believed the real person was immaterial and that they would leave the body. This is the concept that Paul is addressing. He is equating the idea of them leaving the body with being found naked. To Paul the Greeks leaving the body is the same as being found naked. They would be naked without their bodies. This is also what many Christians believe. They believe that when the body dies there is some part of them that will live on after death. It’s usually called the spirit or soul. However, as we’ve seen the spirit is God’s breath and the soul cannot live apart from the body. So, this concept isn’t consistent with the Bible. It’s Greek philosophy. Then he says,
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. (2 Cor 5:4 KJV)
He explains what he means in verse 4. In the current temporal state, we moan being burdened. He says, not that we would be unclothed or found naked. In other words, Paul doesn’t want to be found naked. He doesn’t want to be an immaterial being without a body. That’s the very thing Christians who you this passage to prove man lives on after death are arguing for. Paul doesn’t want to be found naked. He doesn’t want to be an immaterial being without a body. Rather, he wants to be “clothed upon.” He wants to be clothed upon with that eternal state. We see that because he indicates that when he says, “that mortality might be swallowed up of life.” What Paul is saying here is that he doesn’t want to be an immaterial being without a body, like the Greeks sought. Rather, he wants the eternal state to be put on over top of his mortal state. Paul is outright rejecting the idea of leaving the body. After talking about receiving the downpayment of the spirit he says,
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor. 5:6-8 KJV)
Here is the passage in question. He says while at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. Then verse 8, says he’s willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. This is the passage that people use to claim that man can live on after death. They say when a person dies, they are present with the Lord. Is that what Paul is saying? We just read where he said he didn’t want to be absent from his body. He said he didn’t want to be found naked. Surely, he’s not contradicting himself. No, he’s not. The translation here isn’t the best. Let’s look at a few of these words. Paul said he didn’t want to be found naked. So, he rejected the idea of being alive without a body. So what does he mean to be absent from the body? He’s not talking about his fleshly body. Paul often speaks in metaphors. He often calls the church the body of Christ.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. (1 Cor. 12:26-27 KJV)
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. (Eph. 5:30 KJV)
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. (Rom. 12:4-5 KJV)
Let’s entertain the idea that Paul is talking about being absent from the body of Christ. Can we substantiate this? The Greek word translated absent is ἐκδημέω. Here is the definition in Kittles, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, the TDNT. It is one of the foremost lexicons available.
ἐκδημέω has the same meaning as the more common ἀποδημέω, and like it derives from ἔκδημος (ἀπόδημος) == ἐκ (ἀπὸ) τοῦ δήμου ὤκ. It thus has the sense of “to be abroad,” the root δῆμ- being used in sense b., though there is a hint of c., since the man who is abroad is also away from his own people. <sup>[1]</sup>
Notice that this word carries the idea of being abroad or away from one’s people. Let’s look at the word translated as present. It’s the same root word δημος prefixed with ἐν. It essentially means to be away from one’s people or to be with one’s people. The same idea can be expressed as to go abroad and return home. We have this idea of being away from one’s people and with one’s people and Paul is speaking of the body of Christ. So, to be absent from the body is to be away from the church. So, Paul desires to be absent from the body or away from the church and present with Christ. Has he expressed that desire before?
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; 26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again. (Phil. 1:23-26 KJV)
He states it outright here. He says he has a desire to depart and be with Christ. What did he say is 2 Cor 5? He said he was willing to be absent from the body (of Christ) and present with the Lord. That’s all he’s saying. He’s not teaching the Greek concept of an immaterial being leaving the body and going to be with the Lord when its body dies.
<sup>[1]</sup> Walter Grundmann, “Δῆμος, Ἐκδημέω, Ἐνδημέω, Παρεπίδημος,” ed. Gerhard Kittel, Geoffrey W. Bromiley, and Gerhard Friedrich, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1964–), 63.
Absent From the Body
Another passage that Christians often turn to in an attempt to prove that man lives on apart from the body is 2 Corinthians 5:8. It reads as follows.
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor. 5:8 KJV)
There it is! Absent from the body, present with the Lord. The passage is often misquoted. Often you’ll hear people say, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. However, that statement is not what the passage says and it’s wrong. That statement equates the two, being absent from the body and being present with the Lord. But, Paul didn’t use the word “is.” If we look at the passage it’s clear that Paul is stating a desire. He says he’s confident and willing. He didn’t say to be out of one state is to be in another.
However, again, we have people bringing their presuppositions to the text. Let’s look at the passage in context.
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. (2 Cor. 4:17-5:9 KJV)Before we start breaking down this passage, we need to look at the background and what was happening at this time. There were some in the church at Corinth that were denying the Resurrection. Paul had addressed this in his first letter to this church.
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Cor. 15:12-18 KJV)
It was common for Greeks to reject the idea of Resurrection because they had grown up with the teachings of Plato. For the most part, the Greeks believed that man was an immaterial being that was trapped in a flesh body. They understood the flesh to be inherently evil and so the goal of life was to escape the flesh. Once the immaterial part of man escaped the body it would ascend into the heavens ultimately reaching what was known as the Pleroma, or fullness. So, with this idea that the flesh was inherently evil they rejected the idea of Resurrection. If the flesh was evil and they had finally escaped it, why in the world would they want to go back into it?
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. 32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. (Acts 17:31-32 KJV)
Corinth and Athens were sister cities. Athens was the seat of Greek philosophy. So, these ideas started to affect the church in Corinth. This is what Paul is addressing.
He starts out comparing our lives now with what is to come in the Resurrection. Compared to the glory that awaits the believer this life now is but a light affliction. He says we’re looking at those things that are not seen, not those that are seen. That’s the glory that awaits the believer. They are eternal things as opposed to temporal things. Then he writes of an earthly house versus a heavenly house. Again, he’s comparing the temporal with the eternal. Then he says,
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven
2 Cor 5:2 KJV)He talks about groaning in this current temporal state and desiring to be clothed with the eternal state. The Greek word “enduo” which is translated as “clothed upon” carries the idea of, putting on over. It’s like putting on a coat over one’s regular clothes. What Paul is saying here is that he groans to put on his eternal form over his temporal form. We can see this in what he says next.
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. (2 Cor 5:3 KJV)
He says if we’re clothed or clothed upon as he said previously, we shall not be found naked. What’s he talking about? What does he mean by being found naked? As we saw earlier, the Greeks believed the real person was immaterial and that they would leave the body. This is the concept that Paul is addressing. He is equating the idea of them leaving the body with being found naked. To Paul the Greeks leaving the body is the same as being found naked. They would be naked without their bodies. This is also what many Christians believe. They believe that when the body dies there is some part of them that will live on after death. It’s usually called the spirit or soul. However, as we’ve seen the spirit is God’s breath and the soul cannot live apart from the body. So, this concept isn’t consistent with the Bible. It’s Greek philosophy. Then he says,
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. (2 Cor 5:4 KJV)
He explains what he means in verse 4. In the current temporal state, we moan being burdened. He says, not that we would be unclothed or found naked. In other words, Paul doesn’t want to be found naked. He doesn’t want to be an immaterial being without a body. That’s the very thing Christians who you this passage to prove man lives on after death are arguing for. Paul doesn’t want to be found naked. He doesn’t want to be an immaterial being without a body. Rather, he wants to be “clothed upon.” He wants to be clothed upon with that eternal state. We see that because he indicates that when he says, “that mortality might be swallowed up of life.” What Paul is saying here is that he doesn’t want to be an immaterial being without a body, like the Greeks sought. Rather, he wants the eternal state to be put on over top of his mortal state. Paul is outright rejecting the idea of leaving the body. After talking about receiving the downpayment of the spirit he says,
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor. 5:6-8 KJV)Here is the passage in question. He says while at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. Then verse 8, says he’s willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. This is the passage that people use to claim that man can live on after death. They say when a person dies, they are present with the Lord. Is that what Paul is saying? We just read where he said he didn’t want to be absent from his body. He said he didn’t want to be found naked. Surely, he’s not contradicting himself. No, he’s not. The translation here isn’t the best. Let’s look at a few of these words. Paul said he didn’t want to be found naked. So, he rejected the idea of being alive without a body. So what does he mean to be absent from the body? He’s not talking about his fleshly body. Paul often speaks in metaphors. He often calls the church the body of Christ.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. (1 Cor. 12:26-27 KJV)
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. (Eph. 5:30 KJV)
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. (Rom. 12:4-5 KJV)
Let’s entertain the idea that Paul is talking about being absent from the body of Christ. Can we substantiate this? The Greek word translated absent is ἐκδημέω. Here is the definition in Kittles, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, the TDNT. It is one of the foremost lexicons available.
ἐκδημέω has the same meaning as the more common ἀποδημέω, and like it derives from ἔκδημος (ἀπόδημος) == ἐκ (ἀπὸ) τοῦ δήμου ὤκ. It thus has the sense of “to be abroad,” the root δῆμ- being used in sense b., though there is a hint of c., since the man who is abroad is also away from his own people. <sup>[1]</sup>
Notice that this word carries the idea of being abroad or away from one’s people. Let’s look at the word translated as present. It’s the same root word δημος prefixed with ἐν. It essentially means to be away from one’s people or to be with one’s people. The same idea can be expressed as to go abroad and return home. We have this idea of being away from one’s people and with one’s people and Paul is speaking of the body of Christ. So, to be absent from the body is to be away from the church. So, Paul desires to be absent from the body or away from the church and present with Christ. Has he expressed that desire before?
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; 26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again. (Phil. 1:23-26 KJV)
He states it outright here. He says he has a desire to depart and be with Christ. What did he say is 2 Cor 5? He said he was willing to be absent from the body (of Christ) and present with the Lord. That’s all he’s saying. He’s not teaching the Greek concept of an immaterial being leaving the body and going to be with the Lord when its body dies.
<sup>[1]</sup> Walter Grundmann, “Δῆμος, Ἐκδημέω, Ἐνδημέω, Παρεπίδημος,” ed. Gerhard Kittel, Geoffrey W. Bromiley, and Gerhard Friedrich, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1964–), 63.
KingJ
Loyal
My line makes the point that unless you have a rational and working brain, you should probably refrain from teaching others.
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Imagine telling Elon Musk to stop going to the moon and trying to go to Mars because the bible says God wants us to stay on earth. Imagine teaching that humans with high intelligence will for the next centillion years be unable to leave the earth and certainly never visit heaven, God's home. The God that died for them....
If you and @Rhema don't understand how idiotic this belief is, that speaks volumes!!
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John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except ...
“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
I think it's reasonable to believe Jesus knew what he was talking about.