The "elect"

Butch5 · Jan 20, 2021

complete said:
Hello Butch5,

Thank you for responding.

I do not deny that Paul addressed both Jew and Gentile directly at times during the epistle to the Romans, but I do question what you say in relation to when it began and ended. I am re-studying Romans at present, so I will consider what you have said further, and come back to you again (God willing).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Ok, sorry I misunderstood you.

Butch5 · Jan 20, 2021

Dave M said:
Well we know that tribulation is shorten for the sake of the elect. Notice he is using saved and elect in a very similar way to describe why the days are to be shorten. I understand this as meaning those saved are the elect.

Mark 13:20
And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

Now we have to cover our basis because there is a theory that says only Jews are going through the tribulation and only Jews will be saved, and that can not be as we have scripture saying that all people groups are being saved out of the tribulation.

Revelation 7:9
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

we know for fact that these people from every people group on earth came out of the tribulation , and we know Jesus said he was going to cut short these days for the sake that people can be saved referring to the people saved as his elect.

This case is closed for me now. Thanks @B-A-C for another great study.

Hi Dave,

I would note what Paul said, if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed. When a person believes they are grafted into Israel as Paul tells us in Roman's 11. If we are grafted into Israel and are Abraham's seed, then we are Jews, the Israel of God.

B-A-C · Jan 20, 2021

Butch5 said:
I would note what Paul said, if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed. When a person believes they are grafted into Israel as Paul tells us in Roman's 11. If we are grafted into Israel and are Abraham's seed, then we are Jews, the Israel of God.

In which case, all saved Gentiles would be the elect.

Sue D. · Jan 20, 2021

@Butch5 -- born again believers do NOT become Jews. Salvation is offered to the Jews first and then to the Greeks/ the rest of the people. Abrahams' faith saved him. Placing our faith in Jesus Christ / God is what saves a person.

Butch5 · Jan 20, 2021

B-A-C said:
In which case, all saved Gentiles would be the elect.

Agreed. However, in context the Bible usually refers to the Jews as the elect

B-A-C · Jan 20, 2021

Sue D. said:
@Butch5 -- born again believers do NOT become Jews. Salvation is offered to the Jews first and then to the Greeks/ the rest of the people. Abrahams' faith saved him. Placing our faith in Jesus Christ / God is what saves a person.

Rom 2:28; For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
Rom 2:29; But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:21; Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22; You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Jas 2:23; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Abraham was saved by obedience, he believed if he did his part, God would do his part.

Heb 11:8; By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.

B-A-C · Jan 20, 2021

If Israel is the elect.. keep these in mind.

Rom 10:12; For there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
Gal 3:28; There is neither Jew nor Gentile, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Col 3:11; a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.
Acts 11:18; When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

Even Gentiles have to repent to have "life".

God doesn't view Gentiles any differently than the Jews, He values all of us the same. We are all saved the way by the same dispensation.
Often in the Bible, "Gentile" simply means unsaved sinner, in some contexts.

Gal 2:14; But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Rev 2:9; 'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
Rev 3:9; 'Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you.

Dave M · Jan 20, 2021

Butch5 said:
Hi Dave,

I would note what Paul said, if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed. When a person believes they are grafted into Israel as Paul tells us in Roman's 11. If we are grafted into Israel and are Abraham's seed, then we are Jews, the Israel of God.

thank you this is good,

Dave M · Jan 20, 2021

I tried to to put the bible down but more and more evidence that we are all Jews in spirit who are saved is just popping off the pages.

As Butch stated we are grafted in to Isreal and become spiritual Jews in a sense. So if we can find scripture supporting all those that are saved by Grace are the elect clearly written out it would be another slam dunk for Brother Ray initial Point of this thread, that the elect are all saved in Christ of all races. Low and behold we have exactly that scripture In Romans 11..5-7 thanks to Butch for helping me find that even though I know you will disagree

Romans 11:5-7
5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened

Butch5 · Jan 20, 2021

B-A-C said:
If Israel is the elect.. keep these in mind.

Rom 10:12; For there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
Gal 3:28; There is neither Jew nor Gentile, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Col 3:11; a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.
Acts 11:18; When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

Even Gentiles have to repent to have "life".

God doesn't view Gentiles any differently than the Jews, He values all of us the same. We are all saved the way by the same dispensation.
Often in the Bible, "Gentile" simply means unsaved sinner, in some contexts.

Gal 2:14; But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Rev 2:9; 'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
Rev 3:9; 'Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you.

Hi B-A-C,

I agree that both Jew And Gentile are considered Jews in Christ. I would caution though that we don't assume that when the Bible speaks of "the elect" it automatically includes Jew and Gentile. There are place where it only refers to the physical Jews. For instance, when Jesus spoke of the elect there were no Gentile Chrisitans.

Butch5 · Jan 20, 2021

Dave M said:
I tried to to put the bible down but more and more evidence that we are all Jews in spirit who are saved is just popping off the pages.

As Butch stated we are grafted in to Isreal and become spiritual Jews in a sense. So if we can find scripture supporting all those that are saved by Grace are the elect clearly written out it would be another slam dunk for Brother Ray initial Point of this thread, that the elect are all saved in Christ of all races. Low and behold we have exactly that scripture In Romans 11..5-7 thanks to Butch for helping me find that even though I know you will disagree

Romans 11:5-7
5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened

Hi Dave,

You're welcome! It's my position that believers become a part of Israel when they become believers. My caution, as I said to B-A-C, is that we don't automatically assume that when we see "the elect" in Scriptrue that it refers to both Jew and Gentile. For instance, in context, "the elect" in Roman's 11:7 is a reference to the Jews. Speaking to the Gentiles Paul breaks it down between the elect and the rest who were hardened. However, they were all Jews

It's cool when the stuff starts jumping off the page isn't it? That's what has brought me to many of the positions I hold. Someone pointed out a different perspective and all of sudden I saw it everywhere.

Butch5 · Jan 20, 2021

Dave M said:
thank you this is good,

You're welcome!

Gregoryp · Jan 20, 2021

Sue D. said:
I just read the clip -- it's interesting. Not sure why you felt it would 'help'. People can debate Scripture all they want. But is that really getting out and sharing the Gospel with anyone?

The blood of Jesus Christ is sufficient for all who accept Him. No 'good works' are needed on our part.

This is actually something I say often, sitting here debating over theology is irrelevant to the cause. Particularly now that Satan has taken over the USA. The battle must be started, there are to many people worshiping a fake Jesus in the temple of Baal , they need rescuing and fast.

Admon Mikha'el · Jan 20, 2021

Gregoryp said:
This is actually something I say often, sitting here debating over theology is irrelevant to the cause. Particularly now that Satan has taken over the USA. The battle must be started, there are to many people worshiping a fake Jesus in the temple of Baal , they need rescuing and fast.

Maybe you could enlarge on this?

Gregoryp · Jan 20, 2021

5. The United States and Great Britain will Fall with the State of Israel this saves me a lot of typing. Now the temple of Baal refers to all the false religions of the world, prosperity theology, Hillsong, Catholicism, Islam, Hinduism, The Salvation Army etc. All are false and basically worshiping idols. There are many people in these organisations who fervently believe they are saved and on the right path. They are on a path alright, the path to destruction. They need to be saved before its to late.

Admon Mikha'el · Jan 20, 2021

Gregoryp said:
5. The United States and Great Britain will Fall with the State of Israel this saves me a lot of typing. Now the temple of Baal refers to all the false religions of the world, prosperity theology, Hillsong, Catholicism, Islam, Hinduism, The Salvation Army etc. All are false and basically worshiping idols. There are many people in these organisations who fervently believe they are saved and on the right path. They are on a path alright, the path to destruction. They need to be saved before its to late.

You have an interesting theory there. Its true that America, Canada, the UK, and several other 'progressive' countries worship Baal, or Molloch. Its true that we do not live in a Christian country...Human sacrifice is a rampant sin in America, Canada and others, a fact that nobody can honestly deny. To simply accuse different religions of idol worship is a disservice to our country, when the entire country is guilty of it. You say Christians are not guilty of idolatry? How many Christians actually humble themselves and pray for their country? How many Christians actually stand against the enemy in prayer? Very few proportional to the numbers that claim to be Christians...It seems the majority of professing Christians are simply investing in fire insurance, rather than focusing on following our God....By allowing sin in our land, we are condoning that sin and are as guilty as the blatant worshpers of Molloch.

Admon Mikha'el · Jan 20, 2021

One needs.. to remember that we are NOT saved by what we do, like becoming a priest. We are saved by the empowering presence of God in us, by faith... It's a gift.... not by what we do, so no man can boast of it.

Ephesians 2:4-10 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
4 But God is so rich in mercy and loves us with such intense love 5 that, even when we were dead because of our acts of disobedience, he brought us to life along with the Messiah — it is by grace that you have been delivered. 6 That is, God raised us up with the Messiah Yeshua and seated us with him in heaven, 7 in order to exhibit in the ages to come how infinitely rich is his grace, how great is his kindness toward us who are united with the Messiah Yeshua. 8 For you have been delivered by grace through trusting, and even this is not your accomplishment but God’s gift. 9 You were not delivered by your own actions; therefore no one should boast. 10 For we are of God’s making, created in union with the Messiah Yeshua for a life of good actions already prepared by God for us to do.

Gregoryp · Jan 20, 2021

Admon Mikha'el said:
One needs.. to remember that we are NOT saved by what we do, like becoming a priest. We are saved by the empowering presence of God in us, by faith... It's a gift.... not by what we do, so no man can boast of it.

Ephesians 2:4-10 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
4 But God is so rich in mercy and loves us with such intense love 5 that, even when we were dead because of our acts of disobedience, he brought us to life along with the Messiah — it is by grace that you have been delivered. 6 That is, God raised us up with the Messiah Yeshua and seated us with him in heaven, 7 in order to exhibit in the ages to come how infinitely rich is his grace, how great is his kindness toward us who are united with the Messiah Yeshua. 8 For you have been delivered by grace through trusting, and even this is not your accomplishment but God’s gift. 9 You were not delivered by your own actions; therefore no one should boast. 10 For we are of God’s making, created in union with the Messiah Yeshua for a life of good actions already prepared by God for us to do.

As someone stated previously, you dont get it. I know my testimony and my personal history, and am quite aware of how profound that day was when I declared I wanted to be a priest.

Admon Mikha'el · Jan 20, 2021

Gregoryp said:
As someone stated previously, you dont get it. I know my testimony and my personal history, and am quite aware of how profound that day was when I declared I wanted to be a priest.

Wanting to be a priest does not save a person. If you are saved, its because you put your faith in Jesus....John 3:14-16 If I understand here you are a Romanist? Or an exromanist? That's the source of your confusion... The doctrines of that religion are very deceptive, but trust the Word. He will always tell you the truth...Let me ask you this...WHY did you want to be a priest? What was your rational?

Gregoryp · Jan 20, 2021

Admon Mikha'el said:
Wanting to be a priest does not save a person. If you are saved, its because you put your faith in Jesus....John 3:14-16 If I understand here you are a Romanist? Or an exromanist? That's the source of your confusion... The doctrines of that religion are very deceptive, but trust the Word. He will always tell you the truth...Let me ask you this...WHY did you want to be a priest? What was your rational?

who said that it was my decision to make? I am getting the impression that you dont know the Holy Spirit and particularly Jesus Christ. I like it when I am being attacked like this ( it happens very often) this tells me I am in the truth and on the right path. The enemy is horrified when he comes across people like me, and will try anything to tear us down, they wont succeed of course.

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