“Keeping the Law”

[NoHype]

Yes, not to incite another thread, but I'm a believer in OSAS, therefore I do not believe a true Christian (not just a professing one) will ever be in danger of a loss of faith, or a loss of the heavenly inheritance.

But in a previous post didn't you proclaim the idea that a believer is in a state of constantly growing towards Christ even when they mess up at times with sin? If that is so, then how can anyone but Christ define what a "true Christian" is?

I realize one of the answers to this by OSAS believers is those like the five foolish virgins don't represent a "true Christian", and that they weren't really 'saved' in the first place. But that's not what that Matt.25 example shows, nor with those in the five Churches in Asia which our Lord Jesus had a rebuke for.

I'm going to get down to where the rubber meets the road on this now.

In Rev.16:15 our Lord Jesus warned His Church on earth to keep their garments lest they appear naked and they see his shame, because He comes as a thief. The timeframe He gave that in is important in understanding what event(s) can cause one to loose their garments and appear naked (spiritually when He returns).

Rev 16:12-17
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
(KJV)

For His Church on earth at the end of this world just prior to His coming, those events on the 6th Vial of miracles worked on earth by Satan's host that will deceive the whole world is the timing He gave that Rev.16:15 warning for. That's 6th Vial timing of miracles by the false prophet and his host on earth to deceive the whole world is a last hour event. His Church is not yet gathered at that point, not until the final 7th Vial when He comes, which is why that warning is there within the 6th Vial about His coming 'as a thief'.

In 2 Cor.11 when Apostle Paul said he wanted to present those in Christ to Him as a "chaste virgin", while warning about the "another Jesus", and Satan's workers that appear as ministers of righteousness and Satan himself as an angel of light, that also involves a working that will be at its height during the coming tribulation, i.e., the last hour of this world.

In Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, our Lord Jesus used the 'woe to those who are with child that give suck' idea for the tribulation time also. And with the Luke 21 version those with child suffer wrath at the end, God's wrath. That is actually a metaphor related to Paul's "chaste virgin" idea, both coming from the Isaiah 54 Scripture about God being our True Husband (spiritual sense), with us supposed to remain unbarren spiritual virgins who's wombs never bare and don't give suck, while waiting on Christ to appear.

That is also how the parable of the ten virgins is about that same timing of the end just prior to Christ's second coming, and why the idea of virgins is used there also. If the Bible student doesn't pick up this chaste virgin metaphor from the Old Testament prophets like Isaiah and how our Lord Jesus and His Apostles used it in The New Testament Books, they will have missed a major warning against deception our Lord Jesus gave His Church who will experience the end of this world (meaning us today, the last generation).

So now, with that in mind, because that is also how our Lord Jesus was using the idea of 'ten virgins' in Matt.25, that definitely reveals the five foolish virgins do... indeed... represent true believers on Him, but they fall away to deception in the last hour (i.e., tribulation).

The difference is that they fall away to become deceived by Satan's host at the end just prior to Christ's coming. This is how they will profess that they preached Christ in their streets, and did many wonderful works in His Name but found guilty of iniquity when Jesus shuts the door on them, like those of Matt.7:21-24; Luke 13:25-27; Luke 6:43-49; Matt.25:10-12.

These kind of symbolic metaphors God put in His Word are simply by chance, nor to be skipped over. They contain a deeper level of instruction in God's Word that helps pull the 'whole' together, once they are understood. And when our Lord's Apostles repeat those metaphors, like Paul did with the "chaste virgin" idea, we were already supposed to understand how our LORD used those both in the Books of His prophets and by our Lord Jesus Himself.

Even in Revelation 18;7 when the Babylon Harlot says of herself, "I sit a queen, and am no widow", that is part of this "chaste virgin" and "woe to those with child" metaphor from the OT prophets like Isaiah 54.

For example, since God and His Son is our True Husband per Isa.54 and Paul in 2 Cor.11, and we in Christ are to remain as a "chaste virgin" waiting on Him, then a believer that is deceived to go along with the false worship in the end that the Babylon Harlot is involved in, exactly who then would those deceived be 'married' to spiritually, because of falling away to deception by Satan's host during the tribulation? They would be married to the 'instead of Christ', i.e, the Antichrist. By that is where the spiritual idea of not remaining a chaste virgin comes from. The Harlot shows she is married, and not a widow. It's because she is married to the false one in place of Jesus Christ, not waiting on Christ's coming.

All that applies to the ten virgin parable, and to the wedding and marriage ideas, both regarding us (Christ's Church) and the city of Jerusalem.

 

[NetChaplain]

But in a previous post didn't you proclaim the idea that a believer is in a state of constantly growing towards Christ even when they mess up at times with sin? If that is so, then how can anyone but Christ define what a "true Christian" is?

I believe this inquiry has good focus and is well understood. Growing towards Christ's image by being "conformed" (Rom 8:29; 2 Cor 3:18), not growing towards His "propitiation for our sins" (1 John 2:2; 4:10), which is settled forever, at conversion.

Christianity is one who stands in the vicarious work of Christ and are known by the Father to positionally be as He is (1 John 4:17), though conditionally we are in our earthly bodies, possessing a sinful nature which has been atoned for. The clearest evidence of one truly in Christ is his unceasing desire for the Father's pleasures (Phl 2:13), knowing all the while this desire will not be perfected nor completed, until "the redemption of our bodies."

 

[NoHype]

I believe this inquiry has good focus and is well understood. Growing towards Christ's image by being "conformed" (Rom 8:29; 2 Cor 3:18), not growing towards His "propitiation for our sins" (1 John 2:2; 4:10), which is settled forever, at conversion.

Christianity is one who stands in the vicarious work of Christ and are known by the Father to positionally be as He is (1 John 4:17), though conditionally we are in our earthly bodies, possessing a sinful nature which has been atoned for. The clearest evidence of one truly in Christ is his unceasing desire for the Father's pleasures (Phl 2:13), knowing all the while this desire will not be perfected nor completed, until "the redemption of our bodies."

I have agreed that we as believers are continually growing towards Him until the time of the redemption. But He said more than that which marks us as one of His, and it also includes doing His commandments, producing fruit of good works in Him. Apostle Paul said the same things (Titus 3:8).

 

[DHC]

What laws they were DHC we are not told, and in the context of our conversation, doesn't matter.

Hello Brakelite.

You would have to admit that this thread does generate tremendous debate.

Though I am not surprised as the law and it's relevance to the Christian life is the
dividing line within Christianity worldwide. There will never exist any compromise
from either side of the debate, and there is no common ground.

I am eager to debate your last post # 120 Brakelite. But before I can address this post I
must return to earlier posts first and seek clarification from you on some of the points.
We seem to be skipping over some very important aspects related to the law.

Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. (Genesis 26:5)

A very peculiar line that really makes no sense at all Brakelite.

I do not understand what charge or commandments refers to?

I also do not understand what statutes and laws would be referring to?

Perhaps you can tell me what each word is referring to as I do not know.

To which you replied;

What laws they were DHC we are not told, and in the context of our conversation, doesn't matter.

Here is the fundamental problem which you do not address Brakelite. You said we are not
told what laws were in effect. Though you quoted the line that Abraham obeyed my commandments,
statutes and laws! We are left in no man's land Brakelite. If this line was not added at some
later time and is part of the original script then there is a very real problem Brakelite.

I relied that Abraham committed adultery with Hagar and that Abraham had not obeyed
the law. My argument is that Abraham was not obedient to all the commandments and
this is what the text states. You will need to address the failure of Abraham to obey the
commandment against adultery as this is crucial to your argument.

You cannot quote (Genesis 26:5) and avoid answering the issue that Abraham broke the
commandment of adultery.

There is a clear contradiction within the text Brakelite. Your legalist theology is fond
if (Genesis 26:5) and you have quoted it on a number of occasions. That is why I draw
attention to this line as something is amiss. I know that Abraham did not have statutes
and ordinances as Abraham was 470 years before the law. Abraham was charged by
God to circumcise and Abraham sacrificed. Abraham had no divine statutes and
ordinances to obey.

You will need to address this issue Brakelite, we cannot just skip over this issue as if
nothing is wrong. Did Abraham commit adultery or not?

 

[RJ]

Hello NetChaplain.

You are correct in your evaluation of the purpose of the law.

We are so deeply flawed that even the attempt at obedience to even one of
the laws of the old covenant will fail. The apostle Paul made this point very
clear in Romans chapter seven.

Paul was a fanatical legalist and yet Paul was undone by the law of coveting.
There should be no debate regarding the role of the law in the Christian life but
yet there is and always will be. We Gentiles were never included in the old covenant
and God never intended that we would be. God chose the Israelites to demonstrate
to the rest of us the absolute futility of fleshly obedience to the external legal system.

So why NetChaplain does legalism exist within Christianity and why is legalism
so prevalent? Even the cults have the same legalistic attitude to the law. Without
any reservation the proportion of legalistic Christians vastly outnumber those
who are not.

So why NetChaplain is this the case?

If I may chime in. I agree that legalism is very common among many Christians. a couple of reasons:

• My departed Father-in-Law always said: " Why do you think God always refers us to Sheep? We are just not as smart as we think we are!
• Also, I think that many don't understand sin, they always want to refer it to the "Dirty Dozen" or the "Nasty Five". Sin is much more than those and about the only way I can explain it with a degree of common-sense, is that sin is anything that God is not.
• Of these is doubt. And concerning doubt, man just can not believe that he must not earn his salvation, he must do something and legalism creeps in.

 

[NetChaplain]

So why NetChaplain does legalism exist within Christianity and why is legalism
so prevalent? Even the cults have the same legalistic attitude to the law. Without
any reservation the proportion of legalistic Christians vastly outnumber those
who are not.

So why NetChaplain is this the case?

I believe mostly because grace is not completely learned, evinced from the fact that many think they owe God for the free gift.

 

[B-A-C]

I believe mostly because grace is not completely learned, evinced from the fact that many think they owe God for the free gift.

It's not about oweing God really. It's about loving him.
We are the bride of Christ, we should love him like a bride. It's not about what we "HAVE" to do for him, or what we owe him.
It's about what we want to do for him because we love him.

Here's grace, here's a gift of a new car. Ok thanks, but I will never drive it, I'll just leave it in my garage.
Here's grace, I let you join my football team even though you didn't deserve it. Ok thanks, but I'll never play, I'll just sit on the bench.

Jesus asked us to go forth, to win souls, to keep his commandments, to love our neighbors, to clothe and feed the poor, to visit orphans and widows and those who are sick.
Does doing these things save us? No, but we should do them just because he asked us to. Just because we love him back.
Keep in mind, if you are a new man, who has died to his old selfish, lustful, fleshy ways, you shouldn't want to live like you used to.

 

[RJ]

You can't argue with a legalistic mind. They are so consumed by doubt, doubt that God could give us a perfect covenant, one in which we have nothing to do. It is all of him and none of us, otherwise it would not be perfect. We do have works after salvation, the work of the Holy Spirit and not us. If it were not true, then we could boast. It is grace, faith,belief, salvation then works...can be no other way!

 

[NetChaplain]

if you are a new man, who has died to his old selfish, lustful, fleshy ways, you shouldn't want to live like you used to.

Amen, if one desires to live as a unbeliever, he has yet to believe. If God is working in someone "to will and to do of His good pleasure," he would never again desire anything over it (Phl 2:13), which just means God did not work in him.