144,000

[jiggyfly]

Brother Jiggyfly,
I am in full unity with you on this point. However, do I sense you making an oblique suggestion that I am puffed up with unspiritual knowledge?
Your brother in Jesus
David.

Not at all, brother, as a matter of fact I think the oposite of you and the others who have posted on this thread. I was just speaking from my own experiences with some who have desired to understand the book of Revelation for the only purpose of knowing the events of the future. I made comment about the unfruitful knowledge to warn each individual so they can check their motive, that's all.

 

[Eve]

Brother David,

I don't think that is what Jiggyfly is saying at all.

God Bless

Eve

edit (sorry JF I didn't see the following page and didn't realise you had already replied)

 

[4Jesus]

God bless you my precious brother Jiggyfly; let me explain. If you had discerned me in that light I would have thanked you for your honest sharing it with me and thus prompting me to take it to the Lord for a cleansing. We all fall short and we need to sometimes recieve graceful and loving rebuke, correction and encouragment - it is very scriptural!

Bless you again brother
David

p.s. I would much rather you judge the rights and wrongs of anything I may do or fail to do. I would much rather fall into your hands; the hands of a true brother in Jesus, than into the Hands of the Living God; it is a fearful thing to fall into the Hands of the Living God. (Hebrews 10:31)

 

[Eve]

Dear all,

Your little sister is bowing out of this one to let you boys continue with your discussion. Peace be with you.

God Bless

Eve

 

[Gihon]

David: Is the book of Revelation about spiritual Israel or racial Israel?

 

[Deelo]

Wow, I cannot comprehend all of this, but I am glad you posted it. Thanks!

 

[Gihon]

Ok...I'm asking anyone, now:

Is the book of Revelation about spiritual Israel or racial Israel?

 

[DanV]

Ok...I'm asking anyone, now:
Is the book of Revelation about spiritual Israel or racial Israel?

It seems that the Book of Revelation is not about 'spiritual' nor 'racial' Israel but rather is based on, or is a fuller explanation of, Christ's Discourse on Things to Come - Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. It also abounds in expressions used by Jesus. Some of its imagery seems to be drawn from Ezekiel and Daniel.

It is also a Very Practical Book. Even though it is a book of Mystery, with many things we do not understand, it also has Many Things we Do Understand.

Imbedded in its Mystery Imagery are some of the most Salutary Warnings and most Precious Promises of all Scripture.

Very likely John himself did not understand some of the things he saw and wrote. No doubt, God had meaning in some of the Visions that were to be revealed only with the unfolding story of the passing ages. Nevertheless John's soul thrilled with exultation, as he mind dwelt on what he saw.

Alternating simplest truth with mysterious symbolism, it is a book of undiluted Optimism for God's people, assuring us again and again that we are under God's protection, with, come what may, a Life of Everlasting Blessedness ahead.

And, alternating scenes between earth and heaven, it is also a book of the "Wrath of God," ever contrasting the Joys of the Redeemed with the Agonies of the Lost. And O how we need to be reminded of that in this careless and godless generation!

Now concerning the 144,000.

Chapter 7:1-8, coming between the Sixth and Seventh Seals, seems to be a part of the Sixth Seal, contrasting the Happy Lot of the Elect with the Fearful Doom of the World out of which they were called, as described in the closing verses of chapter 6.

144,000 is the square of 12, multiplied a thousandfold, and is thought to be understood, not numerically, but symbolically, representing the Sum Total of the Elect of Israel, the Firstfruits of the Gospel, or, the Sum Total of Christians.

"The Four Winds" - Chap. 7:1-3, seem to be the agencies of the Lamb's Wrath, mentioned in Chap. 6:16, and identical with the Seven Trumpets soon to follow, held back till the Sealing of the Elect is finished.

"The Sealing of God's Servants" - Chap. 7:3, seems to refer to the process of Evangelization going on, in the Roman Empire, before it fell, or, in the Whole World, throughout the Whole Course of History, before the Final Day of the Lamb's Wrath.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

DanV

 

[CrazyForChrist]

wow, i couldnt help but read all of what David said. Amazing. But im a little concerned for i have a bad understanding about something. David, you said it is fearfull to fall into the hands of God. And i also read we should fear our Lord God. Now im not argueing, im just very ignorant on this matter and would love some one to please explain it. It is kind of scary for how could i fear to be in His hands or how can i be afraid of Him that shares so much love with me?:embarasse

 

[Chad]

If I'm not mistaken, "falling into the hands of the living GOD" refers to GOD's judgment.

Hebrews 10:31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

All people are not excused from the judgment of GOD. The only way around this is accepting and believing Jesus Christ as Savior, sacrifice for all sins paid on the Cross. Any sins uncovered by the blood results in judgment at the day of judgment.

 

[DunkedinFire]

wow, i couldnt help but read all of what David said. Amazing. But im a little concerned for i have a bad understanding about something. David, you said it is fearfull to fall into the hands of God. And i also read we should fear our Lord God. Now im not argueing, im just very ignorant on this matter and would love some one to please explain it. It is kind of scary for how could i fear to be in His hands or how can i be afraid of Him that shares so much love with me?:embarasse

It may help you if you read the whole of Hebrews Chapter 10 and come back with any other queries you may have as a result of how you understand that chapter.

In the meantime, lets look at what is being said here within context of scripture itself:

"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. For anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us. For we know the one who said,

“I will take revenge.
I will pay them back.”[
He also said,
“The Lord will judge his own people.”
It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Hebrews 10:16-31

You may find Matthew Henry comments helpfull;

The exhortations against apostasy and to perseverance, are urged by many strong reasons. The sin here mentioned is a total and final falling away, when men, with a full and fixed will and resolution, despise and reject Christ, the only Saviour; despise and resist the Spirit, the only Sanctifier; and despise and renounce the gospel, the only way of salvation, and the words of eternal life. Of this destruction God gives some notorious sinners, while on earth, a fearful foreboding in

their consciences, with despair of being able to endure or to escape it. But what punishment can be sorer than to die without mercy? We answer, to die by mercy, by the mercy and grace which they have despised. How dreadful is the case, when not only the justice of God, but his abused grace and mercy call for vengeance! All this does not in the least mean that any souls who sorrow for sin will be shut out from mercy, or that any will be refused the benefit of Christ's sacrifice, who are willing to accept these blessings. Him that cometh unto Christ, he will in no wise cast out. (Heb 10:32-39)."

To me, the writer of Hebrews is telling us that once we have been made aware of, and have received the saving Grace of God we then DELIBERATELY CONTINUE UNREPENTANTLY TO SIN - we stand in the fearful judgement of God.

For me it has echoes of what Paul said, "WHAT SHALL we say [to all this]? Are we to remain in sin in order that God's grace (favor and mercy) may multiply and overflow?
Certainly not! How can we who died to sin live in it any longer?
Romans 6:1-2

 

[SmileBig]

hope

the good news is though that there IS hope if we walk away from God's presence.

Yes it is true that if we sin after knowing the truth that there is no sacrifice that can cover our sins but the key phrase used by Drunkedinfire is that unrepented sin will mean judgement from God.

The end of Romans 6 says that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life.

Jesus made several parables or stories about lost things such as the lost sheep or the lost son. To me the parables of the lost son and lost sheep does not just relate to a non Christian but also a Christian who "backslides" or who rejects Christian beliefs.

It is true that there may be no sacrifice that can draw him back to God but the lost son confessed in the story in Luke 15 that he sinned against Heaven and against the Father and was welcomed back as the Father's son.

The biblical reference for forgiveness is 1 John 1 where we are told that if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, Romans 3v23 that says all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory and in 1 John 1v8 if we claim to be without sin we are decieving ourselves.

If reading this you feel judged by others because you have rejected God in the past I want you to know that there IS hope in Jesus name for your life but you need to confess your mistakes and thank God for His love and forgiveness in Jesus name.

God bless you

 

[TheKingdom]

Q: Who are the 144,000 in the Bible? What happens to them and where are they from? Are they certain people from the past? Is it only a certain kind of people?



A: There has been much confusion and debate in regard to these individuals, from their identity to the role that they will play in the future Tribulation. Various cults such as the Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists and the Mormons have all staked their claim to being associated with this group in some form or fashion. Even some protestant church leaders have claimed that these individuals are church age Christians who are predestined to endure the tribulation. As usual, the safest way to approach the Bible is to let it interpret itself which is the only way to be doctrinally sound in these matters.
These 144,000 individuals are specifically mentioned in Revelations chapter 7 and 14 and alluded to in other passages that we will be referencing as well. They are first mentioned after the first six seals have been opened and poured out on the Earth (Revelations 6) but before the seventh seal is opened (Revelations 8). They show up between these judgments that are pronounced by the Lord on the wicked that inhabit the Earth after the church (new testament believers) have been "called out" to Heaven (1Thessalonians 4:15).

Revelation 7:1-7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

Now the Bible is quiet on these witnesses until they show up again in chapter 14 where we read the following:

Revelation 14:1-5 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Previously in chapter 7 we saw that these men were on Earth but here in chapter 14 they are now said to be dwelling in Mt. Sion (Heaven - Hebrews 12:22). Thus we can summarize that they are sealed by God while abiding on Earth and then raptured during the last half of the Tribulation before the final judgments are carried out on the world (which would make a strong case for these Jewish virgins being the wise, elect "virgins" that Jesus is referring to in Matthew 24:29-31, Matthew 25:1-13, Psalm 45:13,14, Song of Solomon 6:8,9).

So what else can we surmise from what the Bible has told us about these individuals? It is apparently clear to all but those that reject the Word of God (and wrest it to their own destruction - 2 Peter 3:16) that the following truths are glaringly evident:

These individuals are all literal, Jewish males inhabiting the Earth during the Tribulation and not spiritual Jews or descendants of some existing denomination.
There are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel for a total of 144,000.
They are representatives of the following 12 tribes; Juda, Reuben, Gad, Aser, Nepthalim, Manasses, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph and Benjamin. Note that Dan is completely excluded and replaced with the priestly tribe of Levi. Ephraim, on the other hand, is not mentioned by name but instead is referred to by the name of his father Joseph (Joseph’s name was often substituted for Manasseh or Ephraim when referencing either tribe, which could be the case in this instance). The omission of Dan and at least the refusal to acknowledge Ephraim is apparently due to the role that these two particular tribes had in participating and in general leading the nation of Israel into idolatry. See Amos 8:14, Judges 17 and the book of Hosea, specifically chapters 4 thru 11 for God’s pronounced judgments on these two tribes.
The Lord seals them with a mark in their forehead which distinguishes and protects them from the wrath to come. This is also similar to the mark that the repentant Jews also received in Ezekiel 9:4 when the Lord was preparing judgment against the nation of Israel for their idolatry.
They are unmarried virgins.
They first time they make an appearance on this Earth is in the middle of the Tribulation. Therefore, they are not presently in your neighborhood peddling the Watchtower, Book of Mormon or any other man made literature that conflicts and under minds the authority of the Scriptures.
These men are "sealed" by God as protection from the wrath that is poured out on all of mankind, signified by a mark in their foreheads. It is interesting to note how the original counterfeiter Satan himself also has a distinguishing mark that he uses to seal his followers fate with as well - Revelation 13:16.
These Jewish males are then "caught up" to Heaven before the end of the tribulation where they are continual companions of the Lamb.
In Heaven these saints sing a new song that they alone know, praising God and the Lamb with their Harps.
Bro. Jeff Newman

 

[shortlady]

Who are the 144,000 in Book of Revelation?


The 144,000 Jews / Israelites who are sealed in Revelation 7:4-8 are sealed for the specific purpose of being “evangelists” during the Tribulation period. The sealing provides protection from the plagues and devastation brought on by the trumpet and bowl judgments, as well as from the wrath of the Antichrist. The 144,000 is not a limit to how many people will be saved, but rather is just a select group of Jewish believers called to proclaim God’s message during the end times. There will be perhaps millions of other converts during the Tribulation, most of them a result of the 144,000’s ministry.

Revelation 7:4-8

And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

IPV Commentary

The Reward of the 144,000

The turmoil of conflict is over, and the people of God, 144,000 strong, now stand triumphantly with the Lamb on Mount Zion. They have his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads (v. 1), most emphatically not "the mark of the beast" (13:17). The two beasts of the preceding chapter are nowhere to be seen. We are not told just how the conflict was resolved, but John gives us a momentary glimpse of its outcome. Mount Zion (occurring only here in the book of Revelation) is a place on earth, not in heaven, for the voice heard next is a voice from heaven (v. 2). Zion was the name of the mountain on which David built the earthly Jerusalem centuries before, and whenever John refers to "the holy city" or "the new Jerusalem" in the Revelation (3:12; 21:2, 10), it is always "coming down out of heaven from God," and therefore located on earth. Up to this point in the visions, "mountains" have been pictured as either threatened (6:14-16) or threatening (8:8), but Mount Zion is a place of victory and rest for the 144,000.

This group of the redeemed includes both the 144,000 Israelites from 7:1-8 and the "great multitude that no one could count" from 7:9-17. Just as "the Lion of the tribe of Judah" (5:5) remained in some sense a lion even after he had been transformed into the Lamb (5:6), so the 144,000 continue to be the 144,000 even after their transformation into an unnumbered crowd. They have lost their explicit identification with the twelve Jewish tribes listed in 7:5-8, but they have gained other distinguishing features.

They are identified first as those redeemed from the earth, and their reward is the privilege of learning a new song (v. 3). Because they are redeemed, there is reason to believe that redemption will be the theme of their song. The only "new song" mentioned before in Revelation was that of the living creatures and elders in heaven (5:9), and it was a song of redemption: "because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation." It was accompanied by the music of harps (5:8), and the word for "purchased" in its lyrics was the same word used here of the 144,000 in the phrase redeemed from the earth (v. 4). This time the song comes not from the living creatures and elders themselves, but from an anonymous voice from heaven in their presence, like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder, and like that of harpists playing their harps (v. 2). Both the words and the music are left to our imaginations.

The Book of Revelation spoke of the 144,000 that are servants chosen by God. Which is 12,000 from each tribe. This is not the number of all the people who will be save this is people that are set aside for a certain purpose and ministry. It goes on further to talk about the great multitude that no one can number.

Revelation 7:3-8 states "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

Revelation 7:9 says "After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb."

 

[spirit1st]

HERE is what has taken place? GOD started with the jewish nation ! Turned to the gentiles and world. Now HE returns to the jewish nation again!
Because HIS plan was to go to them first and they are the chosen people!
We are grafted in as part of them . To form one fold!

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

WE are All counted as spiritual jews!


Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

GOD made promises to the jewish people which HE will keep!

144,000 will indeed preach the gospel of JESUS CHRIST to the world!

 

[gotime]

Hi i would like to point out a few things to think about im not saying they are right beyond a doubt but have a look.

First the tribes mentioned are symbolic why? because first of all the tribes a s a whole do not exist anymore further more it has been noted by others that the tribes are diff in rev to the origional tribes, If they are symbolic then also the number is symbolic as well.

I believe the tribes are characteristics of those who will be alive and follow Jesus in the end. study the diff tribes mentioned and you find just about every option of a human being saved there is. eg the tribe of levi would be characteristic of those who faithfuly follow and do the work of Jesus for most of if not all their life. and so on.

secondly there is only one place i can find that 144,000 fits in the Bible.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

notice that the city is symbolic in revelation the foundation is the apostles

Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

notice here that the gates have the names of the tribes of isreal

Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

here is the point im getting at notise we have 12,000 furlongs for mesurments of the city. length, breadth and height are same.

12,000 length 12,00 breadth and 12,000 height

now we have the dimensions of a cube which means 4 lines of 12,000 to form the base and again 4 lines of 12,000 to form the top and 4 corners going from top to bottom to of 12,000 to join both to form cube so we have 12 lines all up 12x12,000=144,000

so this 144,000 are all those who are saved from the foundation of the apostles which gave us the gospel of Jesus through the Holy spirit all who accept this message are called by Paul seeds of abraham so they are spiritual isreal.

thats all im going to say i dont know if this is right i have prayed about it many times and still dont have the answeres but i believe the little i have worked out is from God ill continue to search and pray but thought it might be something to think about and expand on blessings to you.

 

[gotime]

Hi i would like to point out a few things to think about im not saying they are right beyond a doubt but have a look.

First the tribes mentioned are symbolic why? because first of all the tribes a s a whole do not exist anymore further more it has been noted by others that the tribes are diff in rev to the origional tribes, If they are symbolic then also the number is symbolic as well.

I believe the tribes are characteristics of those who will be alive and follow Jesus in the end. study the diff tribes mentioned and you find just about every option of a human being saved there is. eg the tribe of levi would be characteristic of those who faithfuly follow and do the work of Jesus for most of if not all their life. and so on.

secondly there is only one place i can find that 144,000 fits in the Bible.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

notice that the city is symbolic in revelation the foundation is the apostles

Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

notice here that the gates have the names of the tribes of isreal

Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

here is the point im getting at notise we have 12,000 furlongs for mesurments of the city. length, breadth and height are same.

12,000 length 12,00 breadth and 12,000 height

now we have the dimensions of a cube which means 4 lines of 12,000 to form the base and again 4 lines of 12,000 to form the top and 4 corners going from top to bottom to of 12,000 to join both to form cube so we have 12 lines all up 12x12,000=144,000

so this 144,000 are all those who are saved from the foundation of the apostles which gave us the gospel of Jesus through the Holy spirit all who accept this message are called by Paul seeds of abraham so they are spiritual isreal.

thats all im going to say i dont know if this is right i have prayed about it many times and still dont have the answeres but i believe the little i have worked out is from God ill continue to search and pray but thought it might be something to think about and expand on blessings to you.

 

[Faith4Bride]

there are two groups of 144,000 in revelation and they are not the same people. in rev 7 those are physical jews who have come to believe in Messiah in the tribulation. however in rev 14 there is another 144,000 who are the first fruits which are not physical jews but they are the firstfruits of the end timeRev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

the first fruits here are the same exact people as the manchild of revelation 12 and the white horse rider of the first seal. They are the believers within the church/body of Christ/ spiritual israel who bare 100 fold fruit at the beginning of the tribulation as the example of moses and joseph and jesus were in their day. They are the first fruits same as Jesus because they at the beginning of harvest were ripe with fruit ( this harvest is not the rapture) and the rest of believers bare fruit by the mid trib period.

and we in Christ who bare fruit and are conformed into the image of Jesus are His chosen people- His elect people. physical jews who never believe are not chosen people and physical jews who believe and bare fruit are chosen along with us and us with them. the NT makes it clear that we ( even though gentile in flesh) are jews by circumsion of flesh and we are the elect the chosen of God. the church of jew and gentile one in Christ is the body that God made His plan to be about, not the physical letter land of israel and the physical letter jews.

Rev 14:1 ¶ And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Hbr 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

 

[BibleTruth5342]

Are the 144,000 only natural Jews?

Rev. 7:4-8: “I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: .*.*. Judah .*.*. Reuben .*.*. Gad .*.*. Asher .*.*. Naphtali .*.*. Manasseh .*.*. Simeon .*.*. Levi .*.*. Issachar .*.*. Zebulun .*.*. Joseph .*.*. Benjamin.” (These cannot be the tribes of natural Israel because there never was a tribe of Joseph, the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not included in the list here, and the Levites were set aside for service in connection with the temple but were not reckoned as one of the 12 tribes. See Numbers 1:4-16.)

Rom. 2:28,*29: “He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code.”

Gal. 3:26-29: “You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. .*.*. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.”

Is the number 144,000 merely symbolic?

The answer is indicated by the fact that, after mention of the definite number 144,000, Revelation 7:9 refers to “a great crowd, which no man was able to number.” If the number 144,000 were not literal it would lack meaning as a contrast to the “great crowd.” Viewing the number as literal agrees with Jesus’ statement at Matthew 22:14 regarding the Kingdom of the heavens: “There are many invited, but few chosen.”

Do those of the “great crowd” referred to at Revelation 7:9,*10*also go to heaven?

Revelation does not say of them, as it does of the 144,000, that they are “bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion.—Rev. 14:1-3.

The description of them as “standing before the throne and before the Lamb” indicates, not necessarily a location,*but an approved condition. (Compare Revelation 6:17; Luke 21:36.) The expression “before the throne” (Greek, e·no′pi·on tou thro′nou; literally, “in sight of the throne”) does not require that they be in heaven. Their position is simply “in sight” of God, who tells us that from heaven he beholds the sons of men.—Ps. 11:4; compare Matthew 25:31-33; Luke 1:74,*75; Acts 10:33.

The “great crowd in heaven” referred to at Revelation 19:1,*6*is not the same as the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9. The ones in heaven are not described as being “out of all nations” or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb; they are angels. The expression “great crowd” is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible.—Mark 5:24; 6:34; 12:37.

What will those who go to heaven do there?

Rev. 20:6: “They will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.” (Also Daniel 7:27)

1*Cor. 6:2: “Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?”

Rev. 5:10: “You made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over [“on,” RS, KJ, Dy; “over,” AT, Da, Kx, CC] the earth.” (The same Greek word and grammatical structure is found at Revelation 11:6. There RS, KJ, Dy, etc., all render it “over.”)

Who selects the ones who will go to heaven?

2*Thess. 2:13,*14: “We are obligated to thank God always for you, brothers loved by God, because God selected you from the beginning for salvation by sanctifying you with spirit and by your faith in the truth. To this very destiny he called you through the good news we declare, for the purpose of acquiring the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Rom. 9:6,*16: “Not all who spring from Israel are really ‘Israel.’*.*.*. It depends, not upon the one wishing nor upon the one running, but upon God, who has mercy.”

 

[spirit1st]

THOSE BORN OF GOD are the TRUE CHURCH!
They are made NEW CREATURES and JEWS spiritually.
They are KINGS and PRIESTS!
Are they part of the 144,000?
I think not,
Because they are all counted as of the tribe of JUDAH as Our LORD IS!

We follow HIm in Every way. He is our perfect example in every way!

I think, the 144000 are of the natural ISRAEL and become spiritual jews also. Which of course are the eternal people of GOD , along with the church as one FOLD spiritually!