The 144,000 is just a symbolic name for us saints, prophets and Jesus who were created together as the Word. God doesn't use numbers like we humans do.
144,000
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The 144,000 is just a symbolic name for us saints, prophets and Jesus who were created together as the Word. God doesn't use numbers like we humans do.
gospelpreacher
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The 144,000 is just a symbolic number for God's saints who will be used by God to rule over his new kingdom in paradise.
Daniel 7
27: And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them.'
In this following scripture, it shows 7,000 men, which is only another symbolic number God used in this prophecy. It's also talking about his saints, which include the messiah and the prophets who came before them. None of these prophecies are talking about the flesh. It's about the created light called the Word who uses their flesh and reveals God's knowledge as they write or speak. The prophecies use many symbolic names for these saints of God such as the word, voice of God, remnant of Israel, remnant of Jacob, Joseph and Judah(two sticks), holy ones, elect, kingdom of God, heaven, etc.
Romans 11:
3: "Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have demolished thy altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life."
4: But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Ba'al."
5: So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
6: But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
7: What then? Israel failed to obtain what it sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
8: as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day."
Revelation 11
17: saying, "We give thanks to thee, Lord God Almighty, who art and who wast, that thou hast taken thy great power and begun to reign.
18: The nations raged, but thy wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, for rewarding thy servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear thy name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."
Jeremiah 15:
15: Behold, I am bringing upon you a nation from afar, O house of Israel, says the LORD. It is an enduring nation, it is an ancient nation, a nation whose language you do not know, nor can you understand what they say.
Psalm 33:
12: Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!
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B-A-C
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Hmmm.. as far as the term "tribulation" not being in the Bible - I guess it depends on what translation you use.
Mat 24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
(NASB)
Mat 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
(NASB)
Mar 13:19 "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
(NASB)
Mar 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
(NASB)
Rev 7:14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
(NASB)
Rev 7:14 And I said to him, "Sir, you are the one who knows." Then he said to me, "These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.
(NLT)
As far as how to translate Rev 7:4-8, well I think it's pretty specific.
Some verses in Revelation can be vague or hard to interpret, but in this case the numbers seem to be pretty clear.
Is this 144,000 the only ones who will get saved during the tribulation? Or are they a group of people that have not committed specific sins? (sexual sin and lying for example)
Rev 14:1 Then I saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him were 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of mighty ocean waves or the rolling of loud thunder. It was like the sound of many harpists playing together.
Rev 14:3 This great choir sang a wonderful new song in front of the throne of God and before the four living beings and the twenty-four elders. No one could learn this song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 They have kept themselves as pure as virgins, following the Lamb wherever He goes. They have been purchased from among the people on the earth as a special offering to God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 They have told no lies; they are without blame.
We have to be pretty careful about where the Bible is literal and where it isn't.
A lady last week told me that she believed Adam wasn't really a man, but "just an abstract of society" in that time period.
Well the trouble with this is...
If we take the discourse from from Rom 5:12-19
Rom 5:15 But there is a great difference between Adam's sin and God's gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and His gift of forgiveness to many through this other Man, Jesus Christ.
If we translate the place where it says "one man" into "society" - for sake of argument lets say this is correct, OK then sin came into the world by "society". Well OK, salvation came into the world by one man also. So if we change this - then we are saved by society? Or are we truly saved by one man? ( John 14:6 )
There are places in the Bible where it says "a great multitude that no man can count" or "number like the sands of the earth" these aren't very specific, but 144,000 is pretty specific.
As Chad said, it says the 144,000 are Jews split among the 12 tribes (Rev 7:4-8)
So we know these are all Jews. But this isn't everyone.
In fact the very next verse says....
Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
This is more than 144,000 - and it isn't only Jews. (every nation and tongue)
Mat 24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
(NASB)
Mat 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
(NASB)
Mar 13:19 "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
(NASB)
Mar 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
(NASB)
Rev 7:14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
(NASB)
Rev 7:14 And I said to him, "Sir, you are the one who knows." Then he said to me, "These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.
(NLT)
As far as how to translate Rev 7:4-8, well I think it's pretty specific.
Some verses in Revelation can be vague or hard to interpret, but in this case the numbers seem to be pretty clear.
Is this 144,000 the only ones who will get saved during the tribulation? Or are they a group of people that have not committed specific sins? (sexual sin and lying for example)
Rev 14:1 Then I saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him were 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of mighty ocean waves or the rolling of loud thunder. It was like the sound of many harpists playing together.
Rev 14:3 This great choir sang a wonderful new song in front of the throne of God and before the four living beings and the twenty-four elders. No one could learn this song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 They have kept themselves as pure as virgins, following the Lamb wherever He goes. They have been purchased from among the people on the earth as a special offering to God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 They have told no lies; they are without blame.
We have to be pretty careful about where the Bible is literal and where it isn't.
A lady last week told me that she believed Adam wasn't really a man, but "just an abstract of society" in that time period.
Well the trouble with this is...
If we take the discourse from from Rom 5:12-19
Rom 5:15 But there is a great difference between Adam's sin and God's gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and His gift of forgiveness to many through this other Man, Jesus Christ.
If we translate the place where it says "one man" into "society" - for sake of argument lets say this is correct, OK then sin came into the world by "society". Well OK, salvation came into the world by one man also. So if we change this - then we are saved by society? Or are we truly saved by one man? ( John 14:6 )
There are places in the Bible where it says "a great multitude that no man can count" or "number like the sands of the earth" these aren't very specific, but 144,000 is pretty specific.
As Chad said, it says the 144,000 are Jews split among the 12 tribes (Rev 7:4-8)
So we know these are all Jews. But this isn't everyone.
In fact the very next verse says....
Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
This is more than 144,000 - and it isn't only Jews. (every nation and tongue)
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Eagle_Eyes
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I agree with Chad. The 144,000 are the Jews. The Bible speaks for itself, clearly.
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No it isn't for "us". Its for the selected Jews.
For "us" all saved in Heaven is beyond 144,000.
144000 are flesh Jews! New Jerusalem does not come down , till the New earth has been made! when the judgment day is past!
God uses these 144,000 as He used the 12 disciples! To bring many too JESUS CHRIST !
God started at the beginning with the Jewish people and HE ends using the Jewish People!We are All grafted in Spiritually as JEWS! Salvation is of the JEWS!
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
God has made Promises to the Jewish people , HE WILL KEEP!
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
God uses these 144,000 as He used the 12 disciples! To bring many too JESUS CHRIST !
God started at the beginning with the Jewish people and HE ends using the Jewish People!We are All grafted in Spiritually as JEWS! Salvation is of the JEWS!
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
God has made Promises to the Jewish people , HE WILL KEEP!
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
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One thing you need to bear in mind when you look at the various tribes of 144,000 is the name "Jew" comes from the tribe of "Judah". As far as I understand, the other eleven tribes (or is it ten?) have been lost. So if you want to take it literally that the 144,000 represent Israelites, then you have a bit of a problem in how to come up with the lost tribes. It is my belief that the 144,000 are Christians, as the children of faith are the children of Abraham (Galatians 3:7).
Thiscrosshurts
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Technically the Israelite nation was dispersed through Europe and Asia. They started to return to Israel since the 1930's from all over the world.
I know a man who,s family never left Israel.He considers himself a Jew,from the tribe of Judah and can trace his lineage back over 10 generations in Israel.
He does not consider the people coming to Israel after 1945 to be Jews.He says real Jews don't speak Yiddish.
He does not know what to call them(he does but it's not nice) but many consider them the lost tribes of Israel and a fulfillment of scripture.
This return of the tribes is why many think we are in the end times.
However,I tend to be very cautious when swallowing any doctrine that interprets everything literally.To say these things concern only Israel when we are the Spiritual Israel takes a leap of faith.
faith should come by hearing the word of God and I just don't hear that.
I know a man who,s family never left Israel.He considers himself a Jew,from the tribe of Judah and can trace his lineage back over 10 generations in Israel.
He does not consider the people coming to Israel after 1945 to be Jews.He says real Jews don't speak Yiddish.
He does not know what to call them(he does but it's not nice) but many consider them the lost tribes of Israel and a fulfillment of scripture.
This return of the tribes is why many think we are in the end times.
However,I tend to be very cautious when swallowing any doctrine that interprets everything literally.To say these things concern only Israel when we are the Spiritual Israel takes a leap of faith.
faith should come by hearing the word of God and I just don't hear that.
I think it takes a lot of sincere honesty before God to know when something should be interpreted literally and when not. I think there is a tendency when a passage of scripture is difficult for us to practice, to use the excuse "we weren't meant to take this literally".
Ideally if we're all honest and humble before God, it's the challenging passages that we should be most willing to take literally.
But on the other hand, it does seem that most of Bible prophecy is more poetic and so I'd be more inclined to NOT take it literally. I also see that accepting it is Christians who are the 144,000 is the more challenging of the possible interpretations, as those people are supposed to pass through the tribulation.
We must compare with other scriptures!
Jesus changed the priesthood! He is and was on the tribe of JUDAH! We follow our LORD 100% We are grafted in as Priests and in the tribe of Judah ! We are not of the other 11 tribes!
So it not talking about us but the true flesh Jews!
Salvation is only of the Jews!
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for possession, so that you might speak of the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Rev 1:6 and made us kings and priests to God and His Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:10 And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth.
Heb 7:11 Therefore if perfection were by the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the Law), what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchizedek, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is of necessity a change made in the law also.
1Pe 2:5 you also as living stones are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood.
1Pe 2:21 For you were not called to this? For Christ also suffered on our behalf, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps,
Eph 5:30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling,
Joh 20:23 Of whomever sins you remit, they are remitted to them. Of whomever sins you retain, they are retained.
God has given US a very high place in his Kingdom! We might not fully understand it now? It our Spirit part that is His holy Child and heir too His Throne! Jesus shares His throne with Us! Still ,Thank GOD , He is always over Us!
Jesus changed the priesthood! He is and was on the tribe of JUDAH! We follow our LORD 100% We are grafted in as Priests and in the tribe of Judah ! We are not of the other 11 tribes!
So it not talking about us but the true flesh Jews!
Salvation is only of the Jews!
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for possession, so that you might speak of the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Rev 1:6 and made us kings and priests to God and His Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:10 And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth.
Heb 7:11 Therefore if perfection were by the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the Law), what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchizedek, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is of necessity a change made in the law also.
1Pe 2:5 you also as living stones are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood.
1Pe 2:21 For you were not called to this? For Christ also suffered on our behalf, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps,
Eph 5:30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling,
Joh 20:23 Of whomever sins you remit, they are remitted to them. Of whomever sins you retain, they are retained.
God has given US a very high place in his Kingdom! We might not fully understand it now? It our Spirit part that is His holy Child and heir too His Throne! Jesus shares His throne with Us! Still ,Thank GOD , He is always over Us!
I believe that the 144,000 is spiritual Isreal (the church) or the remnant of the church, not literal Isreal, If you look at the 12 tribes in Rev.7 you will notice that the tribe of Dan is not mentioned and that the tribe of Dan was replaced with the tribe of Levi. Compare the first chapter of Numbers with Rev.7. Special attention should be then given to the tribe of Levi.
The tribe of Levi were the priests of Isreal they were the carriers of the ark of the covenant wich also contained the law. The names in Rev. are symbolic, as most of the book of Rev. is also symbolic.
What is significant about the 144,000 is what they are and what they have become. We know that the fathers name in thier forheads is not literal but that who the father is is written in thier forheads. When Chist died He gave us His perfect righteousness the 144,000 has recieved that perfect righteousness by faith setting them apart from all the rest of the world. They are without fault before the throne. They have been sanctified by the truth. Thier robes have been washed by the blood of the lamb, thier robes (character) are without spot or wrinkle.
They are not defiled with women they are virgins.
This is not meant literaly, remember that the church is also called the bride of Christ, being the bride of Christ would also make it a woman. So the women refered to here are not the bride of Christ but adultress women like in the Rev. 17.
They follow the Lamb wherevere He goes. Now we see that Christ is the head of the church and the body of Christ is the church and the body follows the head wherever He goes. For the head controls the body.
They are the firstfruits, Christ is also called the firstfruit. So they have become Christlike. Even more importantly they have become one with Christ for Christ is in them and they are in Christ making them one and fullfilling the prayer of Christ in John chapter 17.
In thier mouths are found no guile for they are without fault before the throne of God. They are living proof that man can live without sin in this world thier message is pure and faultless.
In Rev.14:12 They keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. Righteousness comes by faith even the faith of Jesus. Read also Rev.19:7,8
May god bless your study Chad
Your brother in Christ
The tribe of Levi were the priests of Isreal they were the carriers of the ark of the covenant wich also contained the law. The names in Rev. are symbolic, as most of the book of Rev. is also symbolic.
What is significant about the 144,000 is what they are and what they have become. We know that the fathers name in thier forheads is not literal but that who the father is is written in thier forheads. When Chist died He gave us His perfect righteousness the 144,000 has recieved that perfect righteousness by faith setting them apart from all the rest of the world. They are without fault before the throne. They have been sanctified by the truth. Thier robes have been washed by the blood of the lamb, thier robes (character) are without spot or wrinkle.
They are not defiled with women they are virgins.
This is not meant literaly, remember that the church is also called the bride of Christ, being the bride of Christ would also make it a woman. So the women refered to here are not the bride of Christ but adultress women like in the Rev. 17.
They follow the Lamb wherevere He goes. Now we see that Christ is the head of the church and the body of Christ is the church and the body follows the head wherever He goes. For the head controls the body.
They are the firstfruits, Christ is also called the firstfruit. So they have become Christlike. Even more importantly they have become one with Christ for Christ is in them and they are in Christ making them one and fullfilling the prayer of Christ in John chapter 17.
In thier mouths are found no guile for they are without fault before the throne of God. They are living proof that man can live without sin in this world thier message is pure and faultless.
In Rev.14:12 They keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. Righteousness comes by faith even the faith of Jesus. Read also Rev.19:7,8
May god bless your study Chad
Your brother in Christ
Listen , Everything is Spiritual first! Then we see the Spiritual results in our
flesh or world!
The 144,000 are Born -Again ! They of course are SEALED by the holy Ghost as We are ,Once born -Again! We not going too see that Seal on Then . any more than we see our spirit!
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you are sealed until the day of redemption.
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and lo, the Lamb stood on Mount Zion. And with Him were a hundred and forty-four thousands, having His Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 3:12 Him who overcomes I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will go out no more. And I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of Heaven from My God, and My new name.
I would say this writing His name is already done in us , who belong to His body! Now the 144,000 , I cannot say if it been done? But for Sure it will be done!
You see ? God started off using Israel, then turned to the gentiles and There returns back to Israel! He at that time will work though 144, 000 Men of Israel ! These are men in the flesh , who are Born of God , just as we are!
We seem to have a very hard time, understanding when , HE is teaching us carnal type things and Spiritual type things!
I seen where some want to judge all scriptures are the carnal and some want to judge all scriptures by the spiritual?
We really Need the Spirit of truth to reveal what every scripture means!
And not be too prideful to admit we made a mistake?
The church is gone when these 144,000 are sealed and being used by Our LORD JESUS!
These are flesh Jews and Spiritual JEWS!
We who are gentiles outwardly are the other fold, who is grafted in as part of the 1st fold who are the people He came as and is Israel, the Jewish people in the flesh!
Joh 4:22 You worship what you do not know, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
flesh or world!
The 144,000 are Born -Again ! They of course are SEALED by the holy Ghost as We are ,Once born -Again! We not going too see that Seal on Then . any more than we see our spirit!
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you are sealed until the day of redemption.
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and lo, the Lamb stood on Mount Zion. And with Him were a hundred and forty-four thousands, having His Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 3:12 Him who overcomes I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will go out no more. And I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of Heaven from My God, and My new name.
I would say this writing His name is already done in us , who belong to His body! Now the 144,000 , I cannot say if it been done? But for Sure it will be done!
You see ? God started off using Israel, then turned to the gentiles and There returns back to Israel! He at that time will work though 144, 000 Men of Israel ! These are men in the flesh , who are Born of God , just as we are!
We seem to have a very hard time, understanding when , HE is teaching us carnal type things and Spiritual type things!
I seen where some want to judge all scriptures are the carnal and some want to judge all scriptures by the spiritual?
We really Need the Spirit of truth to reveal what every scripture means!
And not be too prideful to admit we made a mistake?
The church is gone when these 144,000 are sealed and being used by Our LORD JESUS!
These are flesh Jews and Spiritual JEWS!
We who are gentiles outwardly are the other fold, who is grafted in as part of the 1st fold who are the people He came as and is Israel, the Jewish people in the flesh!
Joh 4:22 You worship what you do not know, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
I'm sorry Spirit1rst, I have to graciously disagree with you.
If the 144,000 thousand is literal Jews or flesh Jews as you called them then everything in this context would also be literal. In verse 8 of chapter 14 it talks of Balylon "And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. So we have to also say that Babylon is also literal and that it is the city of babylon in the middle east that made the nations of the earth drink of wine literal wine.
Now this verse wouldn't make any sense if it was literal.
Assuming that Babylon is symbolic and the wine is also symbolic I also have to assume that the 144,000 being literal Jews is symbolic. Now as I said in my previous post the tribe of Dan is not mentioned in the 12 tribes but it was one of the original tribes and the tribe of Levi was not numbered with the 12 tribes of Isreal, Numbers 1:47, but is now numbered with the tribes wouldn't this make the 144,000 Jews being virgins not defiled with women symbolic in itself?
A Jew is not one outwardly and circumcision is not that of the flesh, but a Jew is one inwardly and that circumcision is that of the heart. God is no respector of persons. The Jewish nation turned thier backs on the Word when He came in the flesh and crucified Him, and for the next three and a half years continued to turn thier backs on the truth and persecute those that gave the Truth.
The prophecy in Daniel was then fullfilled Daniel 9:24-27. Three and a half years after the Jews crucified Jesus they continued to reject Christ, and the truth went to the Gentiles. 33 years later the wrath of God came on the Jews and Jeruselum was destroyed.
Those that except Christ now and take all that He has to give are the chosen ones.
Another problem with the rapture is that it teaches that the church will dodge the great time of trouble which is the persecution and the pouring out of the seven last plagues. Since Abel the son of Adam was killed for his righteousness and all through the old testament the prophets were also killed for thier righteousness, the very son of God was killed for His righteousness as well as the apostles. The church was persecuted right on through the ages. during the 1260 years of the Papal rule there is estimated that over 50 million christians were put to death in the most cruel manner. God has always had people that were moved by the Holy Spirit to stand up for the truth.
At the end of the age when all of this comes to a climax when sin becomes exceedingly sinful when the Holy Spirit is completely withdrawn from the world, you say that the church is whistfully raptured away. This is not in line with the pattern that God has always used. If they persecuted Jesus will they not also persecute the last day Church, is the Church greater than thier master? Who is better prepared to stand against the mark of the beast than the church who will recieve the seal of God, the Jews who have always rejected the Christ?
God's last day church will go through the great time of trouble and they will stand true for it is no longer them but Christ in them!
I would suggest a better study of the prophecies of Daniel. Compare the beasts of Daniel with the beast of Rev. 13. Compare also the great and terrible beast of Daniel with the beast of Rev 13 and Rev.17 Learn the timelines of these beasts. You would be suprised on how much of prophecy has already happened.
The church is now God's represenetives on earth not the flesh Jews.
I also suggest a research on the orgin of the secret raptured.
The hardest thing about learning is unlearning things we have been taught that go against the word of God. One of the problems when we reserch the bible is that we look for things to support the things we have been taught instead of learning what it really says.
May God bless in you search.
P.S. who is in greater danger those that teach that we will not go through the great time of trouble and are not prepared to go through it, or those that are taught that we will go through it and make preperations for it?
If the 144,000 thousand is literal Jews or flesh Jews as you called them then everything in this context would also be literal. In verse 8 of chapter 14 it talks of Balylon "And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. So we have to also say that Babylon is also literal and that it is the city of babylon in the middle east that made the nations of the earth drink of wine literal wine.
Now this verse wouldn't make any sense if it was literal.
Assuming that Babylon is symbolic and the wine is also symbolic I also have to assume that the 144,000 being literal Jews is symbolic. Now as I said in my previous post the tribe of Dan is not mentioned in the 12 tribes but it was one of the original tribes and the tribe of Levi was not numbered with the 12 tribes of Isreal, Numbers 1:47, but is now numbered with the tribes wouldn't this make the 144,000 Jews being virgins not defiled with women symbolic in itself?
A Jew is not one outwardly and circumcision is not that of the flesh, but a Jew is one inwardly and that circumcision is that of the heart. God is no respector of persons. The Jewish nation turned thier backs on the Word when He came in the flesh and crucified Him, and for the next three and a half years continued to turn thier backs on the truth and persecute those that gave the Truth.
The prophecy in Daniel was then fullfilled Daniel 9:24-27. Three and a half years after the Jews crucified Jesus they continued to reject Christ, and the truth went to the Gentiles. 33 years later the wrath of God came on the Jews and Jeruselum was destroyed.
Those that except Christ now and take all that He has to give are the chosen ones.
Another problem with the rapture is that it teaches that the church will dodge the great time of trouble which is the persecution and the pouring out of the seven last plagues. Since Abel the son of Adam was killed for his righteousness and all through the old testament the prophets were also killed for thier righteousness, the very son of God was killed for His righteousness as well as the apostles. The church was persecuted right on through the ages. during the 1260 years of the Papal rule there is estimated that over 50 million christians were put to death in the most cruel manner. God has always had people that were moved by the Holy Spirit to stand up for the truth.
At the end of the age when all of this comes to a climax when sin becomes exceedingly sinful when the Holy Spirit is completely withdrawn from the world, you say that the church is whistfully raptured away. This is not in line with the pattern that God has always used. If they persecuted Jesus will they not also persecute the last day Church, is the Church greater than thier master? Who is better prepared to stand against the mark of the beast than the church who will recieve the seal of God, the Jews who have always rejected the Christ?
God's last day church will go through the great time of trouble and they will stand true for it is no longer them but Christ in them!
I would suggest a better study of the prophecies of Daniel. Compare the beasts of Daniel with the beast of Rev. 13. Compare also the great and terrible beast of Daniel with the beast of Rev 13 and Rev.17 Learn the timelines of these beasts. You would be suprised on how much of prophecy has already happened.
The church is now God's represenetives on earth not the flesh Jews.
I also suggest a research on the orgin of the secret raptured.
The hardest thing about learning is unlearning things we have been taught that go against the word of God. One of the problems when we reserch the bible is that we look for things to support the things we have been taught instead of learning what it really says.
May God bless in you search.
P.S. who is in greater danger those that teach that we will not go through the great time of trouble and are not prepared to go through it, or those that are taught that we will go through it and make preperations for it?
I would standing fast on a lie and say it cannot be , but the way you believe is the greater evil!
I believe 100 % in the Rapture or we can say the Catching away !
I post lots of scriptures about it!
Psa 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
In order to Return back to earth with our LORD? We Must be there in New Jerusalem , too come back !
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
1Th 3:13 in order to establish your hearts blameless in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.
Joh 7:39 (But He spoke this about the Spirit, which they who believed on Him should receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Heb 9:15 And for this cause He is the Mediator of the new covenant, so that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, those who are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a covenant is, the death of him covenanting must be offered.
Heb 9:17 For a covenant is affirmed over those dead, since it never has force when The one covenanting is living.
Heb 9:20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God has enjoined to you."
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, tRev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
o meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
We All have tribulation! But it Not coming Ever from our Father GOD ! The Great tribulation is against those who have refused GODS FREE GIFT OF LIFE! He never brings His wrath upon His Own Holy Children! He tells us not to bring wrath upon our children! why would he turn around and bring His wrath on Us!
He is long suffering toward Us!
We Must ask ? Why would there be a Rapture? What would be the purpose of it!
More than one reason ! One GOD has given us Power over the devil and all the demons! satan will gain control of a mere man! We have the power to cast our devils , even satan! Which i have done before! And i am no more than any in the Body of Jesus . No More , no less! He gave All of us His Spirit which is his Power! He has declared All of us More than conquerors!
also He cannot bring His wrath upon HIS own body , which we are ! He says He sees each of us as virgins , without flaws!
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
We are the Most Powerful beings on earth! Many of us Do not know the Power in Us ,is the same Power that created All that was ever created! We can do the things HE said We could! As i have to a small degree!
Jesus said ? We could do greater works than He did! i have not!
I found , it all by Faith , and faith coupled with LOVE!
Faith does not work by its self!
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Faith takes some kind of Action!
We Do two at Salvation! We believe in our heart and confess Jesus Christ is OUR LORD!
We confess we believe in his Gospel!
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
I believe 100 % in the Rapture or we can say the Catching away !
I post lots of scriptures about it!
Psa 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
In order to Return back to earth with our LORD? We Must be there in New Jerusalem , too come back !
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
1Th 3:13 in order to establish your hearts blameless in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.
Joh 7:39 (But He spoke this about the Spirit, which they who believed on Him should receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Heb 9:15 And for this cause He is the Mediator of the new covenant, so that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, those who are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a covenant is, the death of him covenanting must be offered.
Heb 9:17 For a covenant is affirmed over those dead, since it never has force when The one covenanting is living.
Heb 9:20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God has enjoined to you."
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, tRev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
o meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
We All have tribulation! But it Not coming Ever from our Father GOD ! The Great tribulation is against those who have refused GODS FREE GIFT OF LIFE! He never brings His wrath upon His Own Holy Children! He tells us not to bring wrath upon our children! why would he turn around and bring His wrath on Us!
He is long suffering toward Us!
We Must ask ? Why would there be a Rapture? What would be the purpose of it!
More than one reason ! One GOD has given us Power over the devil and all the demons! satan will gain control of a mere man! We have the power to cast our devils , even satan! Which i have done before! And i am no more than any in the Body of Jesus . No More , no less! He gave All of us His Spirit which is his Power! He has declared All of us More than conquerors!
also He cannot bring His wrath upon HIS own body , which we are ! He says He sees each of us as virgins , without flaws!
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
We are the Most Powerful beings on earth! Many of us Do not know the Power in Us ,is the same Power that created All that was ever created! We can do the things HE said We could! As i have to a small degree!
Jesus said ? We could do greater works than He did! i have not!
I found , it all by Faith , and faith coupled with LOVE!
Faith does not work by its self!
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Faith takes some kind of Action!
We Do two at Salvation! We believe in our heart and confess Jesus Christ is OUR LORD!
We confess we believe in his Gospel!
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
"He cannot bring wrath upon His own body, which we are! He sees us each as virgins, without flaws!"
Now haven't I read that somewhere before? Rev.14:4 "These are they which were not defilied with women; for they are virgins. This came out of your own thoughts. Also I would like to say that I never said that God would pour out His wrath on His own body. Did Noah go through the great tribulation of his day in the world wide flood that destroyed everything on earth except for those in the arc?
This will be a time of great faith, but God will sustain those that are faithful.
Also I never said that the church wouldn't be taken up. I believe that it won't be secret. The bible is very clear in the manner that Christ will return the second time. Every eye shall see Him.
In 1 Thess.4:16,17 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17)Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Christ comes back with the New Jeruselum and the saints after the thousand years are up.
Now haven't I read that somewhere before? Rev.14:4 "These are they which were not defilied with women; for they are virgins. This came out of your own thoughts. Also I would like to say that I never said that God would pour out His wrath on His own body. Did Noah go through the great tribulation of his day in the world wide flood that destroyed everything on earth except for those in the arc?
This will be a time of great faith, but God will sustain those that are faithful.
Also I never said that the church wouldn't be taken up. I believe that it won't be secret. The bible is very clear in the manner that Christ will return the second time. Every eye shall see Him.
In 1 Thess.4:16,17 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17)Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Christ comes back with the New Jeruselum and the saints after the thousand years are up.
Noah was not born again or born of God ! Noah was still Dead in His sins! And was saved in a fleshly way , from Gods Wrath!
We are Born -again and Gods own spirit children!
No one could be saved , until Jesus Came and died upon the cross!
Listen this is not hard to see!
This goes for All Mankind , from our beginning in on this planet!
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
Really i could put up All of HEB. 11 just about!
Heb 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Heb 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy
they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
1Jn 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Lots of people on the Earth are Called to be the Elect ! The called hear the LORD , they feel the Holy Ghost at times! But they have Not been Born of God! All the elect were called ! tested and tried and accepted into Gods Family and Household!
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Jesus had to be the first! None of the great men of God could be the first! He had to be the first to enter New Jerusalem , our Home . Once born of God !
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
This slept or sleeping , does not mean sleep as we might rest our bodies!
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
listen salvation is simple!
But we must give All we have too Him at Salvation, He Must BE LORD of our entire lives! And we Must accept what He did for us as Truth!
this is MY LORDS GOSPEL, We accept as perfect truth!
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
We are Born -again and Gods own spirit children!
No one could be saved , until Jesus Came and died upon the cross!
Listen this is not hard to see!
This goes for All Mankind , from our beginning in on this planet!
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
Really i could put up All of HEB. 11 just about!
Heb 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Heb 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy
they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
1Jn 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Lots of people on the Earth are Called to be the Elect ! The called hear the LORD , they feel the Holy Ghost at times! But they have Not been Born of God! All the elect were called ! tested and tried and accepted into Gods Family and Household!
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Jesus had to be the first! None of the great men of God could be the first! He had to be the first to enter New Jerusalem , our Home . Once born of God !
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
This slept or sleeping , does not mean sleep as we might rest our bodies!
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
listen salvation is simple!
But we must give All we have too Him at Salvation, He Must BE LORD of our entire lives! And we Must accept what He did for us as Truth!
this is MY LORDS GOSPEL, We accept as perfect truth!
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Hello all.
I agree with your explanation Spirit1st.
Dear Papajim, you said "Now this verse wouldn't make any sense if it was literal."
Babylon is a literal city, the woman sits on the beast in this city.
Let's look at Revelation chapter 17 (NKJV)
9 Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains (hills) on which the woman sits.
I wonder what city sits on 7 hills?
4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.
Where have I seen the colors purple and red?
6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.
Now what city could possibly have persecuted Christians?
<SUP>18</SUP> And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.
Puzzling, what city ruled the Kings of the Earth?
Now from Revelations chapter 18, this provides the necessary evidence to nail precisely what Babylon is!
4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
So Christians are involved with the Harlot in Babylon?
7 ‘...I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’
So she is the true bride of Christ she thinks? The true apostolic church?
23 For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.
These great men, artists, sculptors, etc?
Now the most telling of all the verses, all nations were deceived by her. I can honestly only think of one organisation that over the last 2 thousand years could match these verses. She is probably one of the richest and most deceptive cities in the World. She holds 70% of the Worlds art treasures, priceless wealth. Red and Purple clothing. The one true apostolic church, come out of her my people!
This Babylon is definitely not symbolic.
I agree with your explanation Spirit1st.
Dear Papajim, you said "Now this verse wouldn't make any sense if it was literal."
Babylon is a literal city, the woman sits on the beast in this city.
Let's look at Revelation chapter 17 (NKJV)
9 Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains (hills) on which the woman sits.
I wonder what city sits on 7 hills?
4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.
Where have I seen the colors purple and red?
6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.
Now what city could possibly have persecuted Christians?
<SUP>18</SUP> And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.
Puzzling, what city ruled the Kings of the Earth?
Now from Revelations chapter 18, this provides the necessary evidence to nail precisely what Babylon is!
4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
So Christians are involved with the Harlot in Babylon?
7 ‘...I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’
So she is the true bride of Christ she thinks? The true apostolic church?
23 For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.
These great men, artists, sculptors, etc?
Now the most telling of all the verses, all nations were deceived by her. I can honestly only think of one organisation that over the last 2 thousand years could match these verses. She is probably one of the richest and most deceptive cities in the World. She holds 70% of the Worlds art treasures, priceless wealth. Red and Purple clothing. The one true apostolic church, come out of her my people!
This Babylon is definitely not symbolic.
"No one could be saved until Jesus died on the cross"
That is an interesting thought, tell that to Enoch, Elijah, and then Moses who was taken after He died. Wasn't it Elijah and Moses who appeared unto Jesus at the transfiguration? Luke:9:30
The gospel has always been the same. The faithful Jews looked forward to the cross and the christians look back to the cross.
The sanctuary service was to teach them of the ministry of Christ to come, beginning with the slaying of the lamb. We look back to what Jesus did for us at the cross. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.
In today's world the Jews of the middle east are saved the same way that we are saved through the grace of God through Jesus Christ our Lord if they except Jesus into thier lives. There is no longer Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:28,29
David777 your right Babylon is a literal city, but it is not the literal city of babylon that is described in Rev.17 that city is Rome making the name of the city symbolic. It is the Papacy here described, the antichrist of Rev.13 and 17 and look there are harlots too. These are the churches that follow the great ***** who have commited spiritual adultry not literal adultry. It is not a literal woman but a city, all of these thing are symbols to describe Rome and the false churches. Now we are back to symbols again.
I have no desire to take your beliefs from either one of you. I share the truth as I see it if you disagree with me that is fine. Time will tell the truth. You both prepare to be taken secretly taken away and I will prepare for the storm that is coming.
My only responsibiltiy is to give a warning to prepare you for that storm.
We can argue over the scriptures until Jesus comes back but I have no desire to continue to argue with you.
That is an interesting thought, tell that to Enoch, Elijah, and then Moses who was taken after He died. Wasn't it Elijah and Moses who appeared unto Jesus at the transfiguration? Luke:9:30
The gospel has always been the same. The faithful Jews looked forward to the cross and the christians look back to the cross.
The sanctuary service was to teach them of the ministry of Christ to come, beginning with the slaying of the lamb. We look back to what Jesus did for us at the cross. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.
In today's world the Jews of the middle east are saved the same way that we are saved through the grace of God through Jesus Christ our Lord if they except Jesus into thier lives. There is no longer Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:28,29
David777 your right Babylon is a literal city, but it is not the literal city of babylon that is described in Rev.17 that city is Rome making the name of the city symbolic. It is the Papacy here described, the antichrist of Rev.13 and 17 and look there are harlots too. These are the churches that follow the great ***** who have commited spiritual adultry not literal adultry. It is not a literal woman but a city, all of these thing are symbols to describe Rome and the false churches. Now we are back to symbols again.
I have no desire to take your beliefs from either one of you. I share the truth as I see it if you disagree with me that is fine. Time will tell the truth. You both prepare to be taken secretly taken away and I will prepare for the storm that is coming.
My only responsibiltiy is to give a warning to prepare you for that storm.
We can argue over the scriptures until Jesus comes back but I have no desire to continue to argue with you.
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