13 in whom you also...were sealed...
Are some people predestined for hell no matter what they do.
- Thread starter FrankDSegura
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13 in whom you also...were sealed...
Butch5
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Yes, notice the word also. It means in addition to. In other words they were added in afterward. That's what he explains in chapter 2. I'm not sure why you're rejecting the grammar. He states unequivocally that the "you" group is the Gentiles in chapter 2.
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh-- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (Eph. 2:11-12 NKJ)
Even apart from the grammar, he plainly states, "you, once Gentiles in the flesh". The Jews weren't Gentiles in the flesh, the Gentiles were. Paul included himself in he "we" group. The "we" group is not the Gentiles, therefore it must be the Jews as the contrast is Jew and Gentile. In addition, those things stated in 1-3:12 are all things that pertain to the Jews. This couldn't really be more clear. We just need to read it in context and not grab a verse here and there and apply it to a preconceived idea.
"The faithful in Christ Jesus" (verse 1), can reasonably be taken to mean the faithful in Christ Jesus, necessarily including Jews, Gentiles and Ephesians.
Butch5
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It can be. However, Paul goes on to differentiate the two groups. I really don't understand why you're arguing this. As I've pointed out twice now Paul states plainly that the "you" group is the Gentiles. There's no interpretation needed. He states it plainly.
You agree Gentiles are included in verses 3-12, and you see all the us's and we's in chapter 2.
Butch5
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No. Verses 3-12 speak of what God had done for Israel, the Jews, in the past. They had been chosen, the had been predestined, they had previously hoped in the Christ. The Gentiles, after they believed, were sealed with the Spirit and are heir of the promises. They were not a part of the promises in the past before the Gospel.
The pronouns, us and we, can be either inclusive or exclusive. It is the context that determines which it is. For instance, John, we sure had a great time fishing, didn't we? This "we" is inclusive and includes John. However, it can be exclusive. John, we sure had a great time fishing, you should have been with us. In this case "we" is exclusive and does not include John. So, whether John is included or excluded depends on the context. Just because the writer uses a first person pronoun such as we doesn't necessitate that he is including the person or people being addressed
Butch5
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It's in the grammar. All but one of the verbs are past tense.
Wow. Compelling argument. Grammar. Verbs. Tense. Without showing us.
Who told you this?
Butch5
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Without showing you? You told me you could read.
Butch5
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How I first came to realize it is irrelevant. The grammar clearly shows it.
No, it clearly does not.
Butch5
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Thinking people can clearly see it. Those with an agenda probably will ignore it. Most English readers recognized a verb that is past tense. That means it happened in the past.
Lol. I have been graded by society to have a reading comprehension at the top of the heap.
Butch5
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It does.
Butch5
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Then why are you having difficulty with this? Do you have an agenda?
