Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!
  • Welcome to Talk Jesus Christian Forums

    Celebrating 20 Years!

    A bible based, Jesus Christ centered community.

    Register Log In

Are some people predestined for hell no matter what they do.

Some of God's attributes Are His omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence.

His omniscience = all knowledge of everything. But He is not lacking in emotions. He would that All would come to a saving knowledge of salvation, but Also knows that lots of people Won't.

You've shared your views about Calvinism -- Because of His omniscience He Does know who will and who won't. But He Still gives us order to go to all people all over the world and share the Gospel of salvation with all who will listen. Lots of people Will and lots Won't.

You commented about God's grieving over the conditions of the world / how man turned out. So -- He allowed a world-wide flood to take place and the only people who were in the ark were the only righteous people still in the world.
Was it an oops on God's part? Well -- much later in God's Word to all of us -- in Romans -- that all of us have sinned and the wage of sin is death but that Because of God's love for mankind -- He provided salvation. Back Then God provided the ark through Noah. It took a Long time to build. No doubt the people back Then were asking all kinds of questions -- What are you doing? Why are you doing it? Are you serious? Are you kidding me? As it turned out, Noah and his family were the only people who believed God and followed His orders for building that ark. And then God decided to start over with Noah and his family. They were kind of a second Adam and Eve. And God Also has given us the rainbow -- a reminder to Him and us that He would never destroy the entire earth like that again.

BTW -- no one says that Anyone has to accept Mr. Calvin's ideas. It's Also true that all the Scriptures he used were in God's Word. The rebuttal To Mr. Calvin was Mr. Armenius. But his concepts had problems, too.

so -- it's kind of like 'this' -- if it were up to 'us' -- then the horrible person who does horrible things to people with no seaming regret Should end up in hell -- no questions asked. But -- say that while in prison -- maybe even waiting for his death sentence to be fulfilled -- the prison chaplain talks to him One More Time. One Last time. And This time -- the Holy Spirit Does work in his heart -- He Does accept Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior. He Will still die for his past sins, but he will Also be in heaven. Almost doesn't seem fair. His bad works didn't send him to hell for ever.

So -- now we Also have the wonderful person who's spend his entire life doing all kinds of Wonderful things. Feeding the poor -- you name it and he's been doing it. Goes to church all the time -- And -- if it were up to Us -- he'd be in heaven. BUT -- he hasn't accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior. And he ends in hell. Now That really doesn't seem fair. Of All the people who Should be in heaven he Won't be.

Why? because good works won't secure a place in heaven for anyone. That's what Ephesians 2 tells us. NOT of works.

That's why God is the Only One who knows who will be and who won't be. 'We' would have the wrong people ending up in the wrong place.

Now Maybe people have been telling the one guy that all those good things he's been doing Won't get him to heaven but he refuses to listen.

And, maybe, no one Has told him that he's Still a sinner in spite of all those good deeds and that he Does need to accept Christ.

We don't know his heart -- only God really does.

but 'we' Also have the verse that says "by their fruits we will know them" -- so --is their life Showing those fruits or not.

And, has anyone taken time To ask him / her About their personal salvation?

Part of our life Is our freedom of choice. God Does allow people to make poor choices. That's the result of Adam and Eve and eating from that fruit of the knowledge of both good and Evil. So -- sounds like you're blaming God for your poor choices?! Couldn't you have said "no" at some point? Your problem has been drugs and alcohol and women. Well -- a person at some point -- takes that 1st drink or the first time using that drug. Was it being Forced on you? Now Some drugs are so powerful that the 1st time Can be addictive / deadly.

so -- those compulsions have been taken from you. You received your help from God? He took the compulsions from you?!

Your bio info says your from Texas. I"d sent you a 'conversation' thing asking what part of Texas you're from. I'm in south- central. This is a huge state.

As for the blasephemy of the Holy Spirit -- the Holy Spirit is part of the trinity / God head.

I'm pretty sure that blasphemy is taking something that God / Jesus has done and giving the credit to satan.

I would agree with your two examples. Well -- to condone murder and say it's God's Will . You used abortion as an example. There Are those who believe that a baby conceived during a rape or act of incest Can be aborted if the female can't handle the idea of being pregnant as a result. It Would be wrong to okay abortion simply because it's a inconvenience to the female or if her life-style is such that she gets pregnant frequently and chooses to kill the baby that's conceived - - that 's murder.

But -- knowing that God gives life -- and attributing that life to satan instead. Well -- satanists do that I guess.

but it certainly is Far better to be in God's Word and not mess around with unGodliness.
 
Calvinism is an evil, wicked philosophy. What hope is there for any of us if we accept the Calvinist doctrine? Salvation through Yeshua Messiah is for all. That is clearly stated in scripture.

As for those who state that Yahweh knows who will accept Him from the start, scripture disagrees.

Genesis 6:5-6​
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. NAS

Looks to me he didn't know how mankind would turn out. He didn't know how I would turn out. I know he didn't have His hand on me. If he had I wouldn't have done the evil I did.

Blaspheme the holy spirit.

First of all this isn't talking about an individual named holy spirit. It's talking about Yahweh's spirit. Blasphemy as referenced here is to do evil in Yahweh's name. Example? To commit murder and say it is Yahweh's will. To claim belief in Yeshua and then vote for abortion in all its forms. That is blasphemy.

Last but not least, those who repent (turn their lives around and quit doing what Yahweh considers wrong) are a new creation. The book is either true or false.

It says in 2 Cor 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away, and look, new things have come.
HCSB

A literal translation of scripture says we receive "a holy spirit " not "the holy spirit." This ties in with the verse above. We will still be tempted. My temptation is women. It used to be drugs and alcohol, especially weed but that compulsion has been taken from me. I like women and I've been blessed with a fantastic wife. But, I'm tempted daily. The difference between me now and in the past is I don't give in to temptation. When my mind goes in that direction I exercise my self discipline and either tell myself to knock it off or if the temptation is very strong pray for help to Yahweh and get that help each and every time.
I pray for your needs, may Lord Christ Jesus, Yeshua bless you for your honestly, because Jesus is our God and may we be sanctified each day!
 
Scripture tells us that calling the Holy Spirit "Beelzebub" is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. What about calling the spirit of the world the Holy Ghost?
 
Your comment about a strict Calvinist is probably true. Predistination / foreknowledge. It's In Scripture but what does it Really mean in it's context. The 'foreknowledge' part is easy. Only God Himself knows at the very beginning. But the predistination thing. God has chosen to Not tell us that. He wants our obedience. 'We' don't save anyone -- the Holy Spirit Does. We Can pray with another person -- not For them -- but we Can listen To them as they establish their own relationship with God through that prayer. And we Can rejoice With them After they've prayed and we can see their newfound salvation in their eyes / their actions.


but on the flip side -- God would that All would repent and come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. But God is also omniscient = has All knowledge about Everything. He created everyone and knows all -- But God is the Only One With that knowledge. He tells US to share the Gospel of salvation with All who will listen -- no one can be Forced to accept Christ Or to reject Him.

There have been people born who become horrible criminals and 'we' would assume they'd end up in hell. BUT someone comes to them in prison ministry and they accept Christ as Savior. So -- that horrible criminal Will be in heaven.

On the Flip side -- the little old lady who's been a wonderful Sunday School teacher for years -- has done all those wonderful good things all her life. But She has never accepted Jesus Christ as her personal Savior. so -- oh my -- She ends up in hell. But Why? Because all the good things she did -- did not earn her passage to heaven. But no one told her that -- or maybe someone Did but she wouldn't listen. She was determined to do 'it' Her way.

Anyone who is being convicted of a sin they've committed Can go to God in prayer through Jesus Christ ask forgiveness and they Will Be forgiven.

Hi Sue,

The word translated foreknowledge in the Scriptures is used to show past knowledge. It's used of God knowing people in the past. Also, you mentioned predestination. In the Bible predestination refers to Israel. The Calvinist doctrine of Predestination is not found in Scripture. It's not about God choosing who is saved. It's about God choosing the Jewish people to fulfill the promises He made to Abraham. God had promised to make Abraham the Father of a great nation. By making that promise He was predestining or predetermining the nation of Israel that would come from Abraham. That is what predestination is in the Bible. It's not about God choosing who gets saved.
 
May the Lord have mercy on all of us indeed,, Just reading half of what I've read, it is very and I mean very crucial in what is being spoken here,, For some very reason deep in my heart I'm troubled and can't just throw scriptures to make myself known & right & If I am wrong which I pray that I don't go to hell for what I'm about to say but when speaking about the bible, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit please do NOT go against what the Lord is saying to each individuals... I am unwise & ignorant indeed but NOBODY knows what is in a man's heart but God Himself. I do not know what it is but to only share from what I've experienced that the ONLY 1 the Holy Spirit will guide a person individually in all truths, REMEMBER whoever wrote the Bible was also human like me & you... I'm NOT saying or going against the bible but There is so much theology teaching & who is right & wrong amongs the brothers & sisters when quoting scriptures... I truly rather be unwise than to have head knowledge of scriptures to be thrown out there & just because, Once upon a time I cried & with despair & upset I asked God if you knew that I'm destined to go to hell why allow me to be here?? Now I fear God and He IS ALMIGHTY but I always pray please have mercy on me & my love 1s & alll of us... The devil truly is an enemy of Gods children.... Why the divisions among each other?? If God is truly IS the one who decides. There is something truly within my heart that is urgently want to say something but because I DON'T WANT TO FALL IN THE CATEGORY OF BEING FALSE TEACHER OR GOING AGAINST FATHER GOD OR SAYING SOMETHING OUT OF LINE IM PARALYZES
 
@Butch5 -- you Appear to be of the mind-set that you are correct and most everyone else Isn't.

Calvinism Is found in Scripture -- though I don't agree with it -- and Armeniansim is a rebuttal of that.

Omniscience is that God knows Everything. Not just about Israel but about Everyone. God knows who will accept Jesus Christ as personal Savior and who Won't. "We" do not have that knowledge -- 'we' are merely human beings.

We are told to share the Gospel unto salvation with All who will listen. We do not force anyone to listen or accept.

There is a passage that says that God Would that All would come to repentence / salvation. But He knows that everyone Won't.

And originally God's Chosen people were the Children of Israel. They have always been a rebellious people group. As have we all "for All have sinned and come short of the glory of God -- They would not accept Him -- in New Testament -- salvation was extended to the Gentile world because the Jewish population rejected Him as their promised Messiah. At some point in the future -- Christ will come back for His people -- the Church -- all born-again believers. They will be raptured up and out of this messy world. And Then there will again be 7 yrs for the Jewish population to come to Christ.
 
@Butch5 -- you Appear to be of the mind-set that you are correct and most everyone else Isn't.

Calvinism Is found in Scripture -- though I don't agree with it -- and Armeniansim is a rebuttal of that.

Omniscience is that God knows Everything. Not just about Israel but about Everyone. God knows who will accept Jesus Christ as personal Savior and who Won't. "We" do not have that knowledge -- 'we' are merely human beings.

We are told to share the Gospel unto salvation with All who will listen. We do not force anyone to listen or accept.

There is a passage that says that God Would that All would come to repentence / salvation. But He knows that everyone Won't.

And originally God's Chosen people were the Children of Israel. They have always been a rebellious people group. As have we all "for All have sinned and come short of the glory of God -- They would not accept Him -- in New Testament -- salvation was extended to the Gentile world because the Jewish population rejected Him as their promised Messiah. At some point in the future -- Christ will come back for His people -- the Church -- all born-again believers. They will be raptured up and out of this messy world. And Then there will again be 7 yrs for the Jewish population to come to Christ.

Hi Sue,

What I post is backed up with Scripture in context. I don't just grab passages from all over. I've spent years studying these doctrines that I post about. I look at the original languages. So, yes, I'm pretty confident in what I post. If I'm not confident I don't post.

I have to disagree with you on Calvinism. It's not found in Scripture. It's a theological system built on proof texts.

I also have to disagree with you on the rapture. It will be at the end of the tribulation not before it. Jesus states this plainly.

25 "See, I have told you beforehand.
26 "Therefore if they say to you,`Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or`Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.
27 "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 "For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpe (Matt. 24:25-31 NKJ)
 
Rom 8:29 Please notice what this says,to become conformed, not are conformed. And if the Lord did predestined us,then there is no way he can possibly judge us. For it was your fault not mine Lord. You set me up to fail?? Are you kidding me?? So this belief does not even get into common sense to me.( Luke 6:32-36) The other problem Calvinism ( they like to hide under the word reformed)has is that he believes God hates sinners. Better take this out of my bible then. Anything which has an ism attached to it,you know is bad!
 
"We" might want to remember that Mr. Calvin was a mere man who lived a long time ago. He had a lot of views that lots of people took to. Mr. Armenius responded back. Thus the continued debate regarding Calvinism / Arminionism.

It gets 'old' after a while.
 
Rom 8:29 Please notice what this says,to become conformed, not are conformed. And if the Lord did predestined us,then there is no way he can possibly judge us. For it was your fault not mine Lord. You set me up to fail?? Are you kidding me?? So this belief does not even get into common sense to me.( Luke 6:32-36) The other problem Calvinism ( they like to hide under the word reformed)has is that he believes God hates sinners. Better take this out of my bible then. Anything which has an ism attached to it,you know is bad!

In context Romans 8:29 is speaking of the Jews.
 
@Butch5 -- actually - doesn't the context go back to vs 27 "because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

The 'saints' being all believers?!

Among many brethren -- saints.

Chapter 8: 1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus , who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." For those who are in Christ Jesus.
 
In context Romans 8:29 is speaking of the Jews.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
 
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew (to know beforehand) he also predestined ( to determine. To determine or decree beforehand) to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Verse 30 is all past tense!

All born again Christians are growing into the man they are already are in Christ (the image of his Son)!
 
@Butch5 -- actually - doesn't the context go back to vs 27 "because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

The 'saints' being all believers?!

Among many brethren -- saints.

Chapter 8: 1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus , who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." For those who are in Christ Jesus.
Hi Sue,

Paul opens his letter to the Roman church in general. At chapter 2 verse 17 He turns his attention to the Jewish believers in the church. He carries this discourse on through chapter 11 verse 13. In this section he makes references to the Jews such as, Abraham, our father according to the flesh, and so on.

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, (Rom. 2:17 KJV)

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. (Rom. 11:13-14 KJV)
 
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew (to know beforehand) he also predestined ( to determine. To determine or decree beforehand) to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Verse 30 is all past tense!

All born again Christians are growing into the man they are already are in Christ (the image of his Son)!
Verse 30 is all past tense. It's because God had done all of those things for the Jews he foreknew.
 
Back
Top