Are the teachings of Jesus about the horror of Hell literal or metaphorical?

[Samson2020]

My entire point is that God preplanned all of His works before He began to form the creation. He had a plan in which many sons would come to glory through the subjection
to good and evil thus He needed them to experience it. Garden of Eden fall, mission accomplished=condemnation of every human from that point forward.
Now since God knows the end from the beginning do we really even give thought to the possibility that God cannot accomplish His goal? Does God have an enemy? NO!
But we have an enemy and so does the cross of Christ, in fact 2 enemies, our carnal mind, and the devil. Both of those are by design of the Father. The devil is a created being
GIVEN control over the earthly realm (Prince of the power of the air).
So if God has no enemy, who can stop Him from accomplishing that which He purposed in Himself before He founded the world?

And why even start if you knew in advance that you were gonna lose the majority, or have to inter the majority to an everlasting bonfire roasting?

 

[Christ4Ever]

And why even start if you knew in advance that you were gonna lose the majority, or have to inter the majority to an everlasting bonfire roasting?

Dear Brother,
That's a mindset that man has, not God.

A good example of this is Jesus' parable of the Vineyard Workers (Matthew 20:1-16). Also, Ezekiel 37:1-14, comes to mind as well. I mean even look at Matthew 7:13-14, which speaks of narrow and wide, and the few who find one verses the other. So, reasoning as a man that knowing you would "lose the majority" is not a God concept. Oh, don't forget the Ark, where only 8 were saved. That's a whole lot of dead folks (world).

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Victor VanHeerden]

Yep. In fact Lord Jesus t

Jesus Himself was probably one of the greatest "fire and brimstone" preachers. Guess who is speaking in all the verses below. Jesus wasn't afraid to put the fear of hell into people.

Matt 5:22; "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Matt 5:29; "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matt 5:30; "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
Matt 10:28; "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 18:9; "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.
Matt 23:15; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Matt 23:33; "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
Mark 9:43; "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:45; "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
Mark 9:47; "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
Luke 12:5; "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Matt 11:23; "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.
Matt 16:18; "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
Luke 10:15; "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!
Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

Matt 7:19; "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Matt 13:40; "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 13:50; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 18:8; "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
Matt 25:41; "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Mark 9:43; "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Luke 17:29; but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
John 15:6; "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Yep. Lord Jesus preached more on the terror of hell than on love and heaven. Why? Because he cared and loved the masses enough to warn them, about the horror of hell. If hell was not so bad a place, he would not have done so. Where people get confused, is thinking that God cannot send people to such a horrible place. So hell must be a much better place. Really? Unscriptural new age thinking. Scripture must be interpreted by scripture - not be moden human sensibilities and personal bias.

Jesus Himself was probably one of the greatest "fire and brimstone" preachers. Guess who is speaking in all the verses below. Jesus wasn't afraid to put the fear of hell into people.

Matt 5:22; "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Matt 5:29; "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matt 5:30; "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
Matt 10:28; "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 18:9; "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.
Matt 23:15; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Matt 23:33; "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
Mark 9:43; "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:45; "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
Mark 9:47; "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
Luke 12:5; "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Matt 11:23; "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.
Matt 16:18; "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
Luke 10:15; "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!
Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

Matt 7:19; "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Matt 13:40; "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 13:50; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 18:8; "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
Matt 25:41; "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Mark 9:43; "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Luke 17:29; but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
John 15:6; "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Yep.

Lord Jesus preached more on the terror of hell than on love and heaven. Why? Because he cared and loved the masses enough to warn them, about the horror of hell. If hell was not so bad a place, he would not have done so. Where people get confused, is thinking that God cannot send people to such a horrible place. So hell must be a much better place.

Really?

Unscriptural new age thinking.

Scripture must be interpreted by scripture - not be modern human sensibilities and personal bias.

If Hell was a nice place, God will have to apologize to all those, who have lived "hell" on earth; crime victims, abject poverty, wars, famines, pestilences, natural disasters, Great Tribulation etc.

Scriptural Hell is a place of eternal fiery torment, torture, destruction and horror as depicted by Jesus, Paul, Peter, Church Fathers, majority scholars, theologians, preachers etc.


Apostle Paul explains that it is the terror of the Lord that makes him persuade people to follow Christ. God executes wrath, vengeance and punishment as he sees fit - he can for he is God.

Lord Jesus Christ taught more about Hell and its enduring horrific punishment then any one else in the Bible.

This will come as a shock to many that have been raised on a “feel good” diet of "listener friendly" sermons that tickle-the-ear but not the soul.

As Jesus said and as you quoted above "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Why? Yep.

God's advice to us; is that we must rather cut off body parts so that they do not go to hell.

That is how God views hell. And He should know. He created it.

For eternal horrendous punishment of the Devil, fallen angels and unrepentant sinners.

 

[Dave M]

As I was reading Matthew recently I was reading the parable teaching of Jesus about how it is better to go through life maim or with one eye or with one leg than it would be to be cast into hell. Now that would make no sense if hell was a place that was our complete annihilation, if we were completely annihilated then we should want to live our best life now. If we were completely destroyed why should we fear God, we won't even know we are being punished.


no reason to fear God if we are going to be destroyed at the end

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.​

​

so the suffering in this life is nothing compared to what is coming, for those who deny our Lord

Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.​

 

[Samson2020]

Dear Brother,
That's a mindset that man has, not God.

A good example of this is Jesus' parable of the Vineyard Workers (Matthew 20:1-16). Also, Ezekiel 37:1-14, comes to mind as well. I mean even look at Matthew 7:13-14, which speaks of narrow and wide, and the few who find one verses the other. So, reasoning as a man that knowing you would "lose the majority" is not a God concept. Oh, don't forget the Ark, where only 8 were saved. That's a whole lot of dead folks (world).

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

Would you mind expanding on your thoughts concerning these sets of verses? Matthew 20 is simply teaching that all the workers receive the same wage regardless of when they
started to work. Not sure how this fits into God not being able to fulfill His own will?
I'll withhold what I believe Ezekiel 37 really means.
Matthew 7:13-14 The way that leads unto life wasn't even manifest yet in that the New Covenant had not yet been ratified. The Mosaic law was still in effect when He spoke those words.
He knew that He was the WAY but who could believe that report unless God had revealed it to them that He was the Son of God as He had said to Peter in Matt 16:17

YBIC

 

[Christ4Ever]

And why even start if you knew in advance that you were gonna lose the majority, or have to inter the majority to an everlasting bonfire roasting?

That's a mindset that man has, not God.

A good example of this is Jesus' parable of the Vineyard Workers (Matthew 20:1-16). Also, Ezekiel 37:1-14, comes to mind as well. I mean even look at Matthew 7:13-14, which speaks of narrow and wide, and the few who find one verses the other. So, reasoning as a man that knowing you would "lose the majority" is not a God concept. Oh, don't forget the Ark, where only 8 were saved. That's a whole lot of dead folks (world).

Would you mind expanding on your thoughts concerning these sets of verses? Matthew 20 is simply teaching that all the workers receive the same wage regardless of when they
started to work. Not sure how this fits into God not being able to fulfill His own will?
I'll withhold what I believe Ezekiel 37 really means.
Matthew 7:13-14 The way that leads unto life wasn't even manifest yet in that the New Covenant had not yet been ratified. The Mosaic law was still in effect when He spoke those words.
He knew that He was the WAY but who could believe that report unless God had revealed it to them that He was the Son of God as He had said to Peter in Matt 16:17

YBIC

Dear Brother,
I notice you didn't address my use of Ezekiel 37:1-14 (life to bones). An example that God is not limited by death or for that matter life. So, I'll leave that alone though it does pertain to the overall concept I quoted of yours above. Which is to remind you that God will lose no one of His choosing.

The premise you used for explaining man's point of view for explaining why God would not do as He is doing, I quoted above. In particular "you were gonna lose the majority". I stated that this is a man concept and not a God one. The parable in Matthew 20:1-16 is appropriate to show that Jesus was of like mind of God, because He is God. Only man would be upset at the thought of this concept presented in the parable. Not so God. Showing that man would find this parable unacceptable (wage distribution to work done), God has no issue, as the source of truth and righteousness in doing so, and not the other way around that you suggest is God's reason for being like mindedness to man.

Now in Matthew 7:13-14 which speaks of the "narrow and wide" gate is another example of not being dictated to as man would have it, "place your above quote here", but rather a choice that God allows to be.

All three examples placed before you for your consideration in answering your question on why God would even in the foreknowledge of the many being as you say, "everlasting bonfire roasting?". For they present an everlasting example of Isaiah 55:8. Which is difficult for us to see/imagine, but not so much for Him.

I hope this reply was not too convoluted in answering your question.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[KingJ]

Unscriptural new age thinking.

Unscritpural is adding the word 'horror' to hell. There is no scripture that mentions 'horrors' in hell.

Scripture must be interpreted by scripture - not be modern human sensibilities and personal bias.

Could not agree more. Do you have a scripture that says there are horrors in hell?

If Hell was a nice place, God will have to apologize to all those, who have lived "hell" on earth; crime victims, abject poverty, wars, famines, pestilences, natural disasters, Great Tribulation etc.

God is good and will not repay evil with evil. It is only wicked people who would want that. All who go to hell will be judged by a good God Psalm 136:1 and punished according to their deeds Rom 2:6.

Scriptural Hell is a place of eternal fiery torment, torture, destruction and horror as depicted by Jesus, Paul, Peter, Church Fathers, majority scholars, theologians, preachers etc.

What makes you say the word torture? Are you insinuating God will do something like this? Brazen bull - Wikipedia

Apostle Paul explains that it is the terror of the Lord that makes him persuade people to follow Christ. God executes wrath, vengeance and punishment as he sees fit - he can for he is God.

As he sees fit? You make it sound like God perverts justice. God does not Job 34:12. Do you have a scripture that says He does?

Lord Jesus Christ taught more about Hell and its enduring horrific punishment then any one else in the Bible.

Jesus did not mention 'horrific punishment'. That is your insertion.

Jesus did say hell is a terrible place to be, yes. Eternal separation and punishment for sin by fire is an important fact for the wicked to be aware of.

This will come as a shock to many that have been raised on a “feel good” diet of "listener friendly" sermons that tickle-the-ear but not the soul.

As Jesus said and as you quoted above "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Why? Yep.

God's advice to us; is that we must rather cut off body parts so that they do not go to hell.

That is how God views hell. And He should know. He created it. For eternal horrendous punishment of the Devil, fallen angels and unrepentant sinners.

Why quote that verse. There is a harsher one in Rev 2:10, namely death.

It is better to die a martyr, chop off a body part then spend eternity in hell. Correct. This does not mean God will torture those that go there. Eternal separation and an agonising Luke 16 type fire every time you sin is sufficient reason.

I challenge you to go ask any husband or wife whose spouse is divorcing them if they would chop off a finger to keep them. Or, ask any loving parent if they would not lay their lives down for the chance to see their children again.

Hell is terrible when compared to heaven. God is someone we should fear. Fact. Not because He is wicked or hell is 'horrendous' as you keep wanting to insinuate and incriminate God on. Rather, as God is able to judge our hearts at depths of intent Jer 17:9-12 and He is 'God of all'. As such, God can and will separate the unrepentant sinners from the repentant sinners for all eternity. This is most certainly a terrifying truth for any in unrepentant sin.

 

[Samson2020]

Rev 7:9-10 After this I beheld, and lo, a great multitude, WHICH NO MAN COULD NUMBER, of all nations, and kindreds, and peoples, and tongues, stood before the throne,
and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Doesn't actually sound like a FEW to me! I can count into the billions, how bout you. Extrapolating the beginning to the end may be 40-60 billion souls that are ever born on the
earth but still numberable.

John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son and hath given ALL things into His hand.
John 6:39 And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me, of ALL that He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

1 John 2:2 "And He is the propitiation for our sins: AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD."

Based on John 3:35 and John 6:39 the will of God is to bring ALL unto repentance and to give them life by the sacrifice that He made to Himself (Jesus) for the sin
on the entire world as John 2:2 states. So Gods mind set is to bring all and not just a few.
Like I said earlier when Jesus said what He said in 7:13-14 the New covenant had not been established, but when it was you get this from Paul:

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one(Adam) judgement came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one(Jesus) the free gift came upon all men
unto justification of life.
That one act of righteousness, the sacrifice of the Son of God, paid the price for the sin of the entire world 1 John2:2, there is nothing else that can satisfy God short of
the belief that your sin was washed away By the death of His son in your place. Eventually ALL men will come to that knowledge and truth and will enter into life.

1 Tim 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, AND TO COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH."
1 Tim 2:5-6 "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, the MAN Christ Jesus; WHO GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME."

 

[Samson2020]

Unscritpural is adding the word 'horror' to hell. There is no scripture that mentions 'horrors' in hell.

The proper word usage would be torment. As we see In 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: BECAUSE FEAR HATH TORMENT. He that feareth is
not made perfect in love.
Fear of death in particular is a tormentor of the soul.
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is DEATH; but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now, if death is the price one pays for sin, why is ETERNAL HELL FIRE ADDED TO DEATH? And since the gift of God is eternal life because of what was done by Jesus, Romans 5:18,
is not the debt for sin been paid for ALL by Him?

Looking at the second death from a spiritual vantage point it is a reconstruction of what we see in the world today bringing forth a second round of salvation for those that our God shall
call during that period. Sure there will be torment day and night as there is now in the mind of carnal men, for they will fear death day and night as they believe there is no eternal life for
God has not let them in on His gift yet.

There is a mystery of iniquity and that mystery is that iniquity brought against you will eventually perfect your love of one another and God. For once perfected there will be no fear in you.

I ask the question again. What sets you free from all fear? Is it believing that God chose you and whom ever He did not choose He will torment forever? Or that ALL have been delivered from
death, but have not come into the understanding of this yet? But one day will.

I repeat 1 Tim 2:3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND TO COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH."
And what or Who is the truth- JESUS, and what was purchased by His sacrifice. This is the truth that God will have all men come into the knowledge of.
Does God have the power to draw ALL men to Jesus?
According to John 12:32 Jesus thinks so "And I, If I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me."
I realize that the Bible is written to keep people out that have no right to the manna that is hidden within, but some things are just too black and white with NO GRAY area to them.
if one continues to twist the meaning to something other than what is said they will not grow.
Line upon line, precept upon precept. Get the first line wrong then the foundation is weak and eventually your doctrine fails to stand.

Isaiah 53:11 "He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied: by His knowledge shall My righteous servant justify many; for He shall bear their iniquities."
Add Romans 5:18 here.

Did He not bear the iniquity of us all according to 1 John 2:2? Then many are the ones that He bore the iniquities for, and that would be ALL except Himself for He had
no iniquity.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Rev 7:9-10 After this I beheld, and lo, a great multitude, WHICH NO MAN COULD NUMBER, of all nations, and kindreds, and peoples, and tongues, stood before the throne,
and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Doesn't actually sound like a FEW to me! I can count into the billions, how bout you. Extrapolating the beginning to the end may be 40-60 billion souls that are ever born on the
earth but still numberable.

Dear Brother,
When you take into account the entirety of History...and I'd check on your "40-60 billion souls" because just in today's time there are estimates of having been 45 - 125 billion or 90 - 110 billion souls...so give or take 5 - 65 billion more then you're giving credit for. Still, regardless of how high you can count, you'd still fall short won't you? Oh, there are estimates that it would take 100 years to count to a billion! Oh, and there are estimates that bring it to being much longer than that!!!

Also, you should look into the meaning of "multitude" because it's not what you or I would think it means at first glance. And "which no man could number"...well counting even to let's say 5 billion would be beyond the lifetime of man.

I would agree a lot of people, but not in comparison to even one soul being loss; won't you say?

John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son and hath given ALL things into His hand.
John 6:39 And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me, of ALL that He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Agree! Yet, it's how you view both John 3:35, and John 6:39, with verses that follow them that provide a greater understand to what is being said i.e. John 3:26, John 6:40 for without doing so it removes the necessary context for truly understanding the verses you have quoted. I'll share both of them together here. Highlighting the verses not quoted.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:39-40 KJV

[Jhn 3:35-36 KJV] 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36 KJV

1 John 2:2 "And He is the propitiation for our sins: AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD."

You really should read the rest of 1 John 2.

Based on John 3:35 and John 6:39 the will of God is to bring ALL unto repentance and to give them life by the sacrifice that He made to Himself (Jesus) for the sin
on the entire world as John 2:2 states. So Gods mind set is to bring all and not just a few.
Like I said earlier when Jesus said what He said in 7:13-14 the New covenant had not been established,...

I've already addressed the first two verses again, having done so above, or 1 John 2:2., and as far as Matthew 7:13-14 is concerned and your position that the New Covenant had not been established...take care of holding to this, because how much of the three Gospels that quote Jesus' Words fall into that category?

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one(Adam) judgement came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one(Jesus) the free gift came upon all men
unto justification of life.
That one act of righteousness, the sacrifice of the Son of God, paid the price for the sin of the entire world

Again, you should read the rest of Romans 5, and keep the context in place. In fact you should continue with chapter 6, but then again all of Romans is awesome! (Heavy sigh)

1 Tim 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, AND TO COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH."
1 Tim 2:5-6 "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, the MAN Christ Jesus; WHO GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME."

You pick the ASV out of all of the versions to quote and justify your position?

Anyway, to go on. Yet not everyone will have Jesus abiding in them, will they? It's pretty evident in today's time, and since His ascension this has always been the case. Oh, I know that there is no denial for anyone that there is a God, but there are foolish people are there not? Plus, I don't see those repenting or actually having belief in Jesus in them, do you? And let's not go into the area where those things are not necessary to be saved. Scripture speaks in many places of the necessity of this, in fact the first sermon that is found in Acts should be read for those who don't believe this to be true.

Well, Brother; what you have shown is the ability to parcel out Bible verses that removes the context or in other words the intent of what was written. This is too often intentionally (I'm not saying you) by those who profess to be knowledgeable of God's Word, but in truth leaves them wanting. Creating doctrines not found in Scripture and leading many astray by establishing churches professing the truth. This has happened to many churches from olden times to now. They are truly deceiving people, and this happens due to lack of knowledge by the people and a lack of desire to research/study/pray for themselves on what is actually found in the Word of God. The Holy Spirit really does help with this too!!! Trust Him more than I trust what I find in my own noggin!

I'm sure you'll have more to say, so I'll let you post and have at it!!! Though you really don't have to!
God bless.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Samson2020]

I will only say that in order for one to come to Christ to learn the truth, they must be drawn by the Father. And the FAITH necessary to believe is also GIVEN by the Father as a gift.
None of us would understand without having been given the gift and having been drawn by God to the Son.
Once those things happen there was a change in us, a repentance, a change of mind etc.... but it did not happen until AFTER God revealed those truths to us.
If we take credit for what He has given then we declare self righteousness, "I have accepted" NO it was a gift that you can only say thank you for.
Once God decides to call the ALL mentioned in the verses that I quoted the ALL will eventually repent and do what we do now which is to follow Jesus into an eternal inheritance.

I believe that you do not understand yet that ALL things are up to God to make happen and that He has a will that involves ALL men.
He condemned ALL due to Adams disobedience, and He justified ALL due to the righteous act of Jesus. He can and does do whatsoever He wills and He will have all come into the knowledge
of the truth.

1 Tim 2:4
KJV "Who will have ALL men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth."
NKJV "Who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
NLT "Who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth."
NET " Since He wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
YLT "Who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth."
WEB "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

I think we get His intent no matter what version we use?? For His will, desire, want is the same in all cases. And if we add that He wants, wills, or desires ALL to come to the knowledge
of the truth, the only way thats gonna happen is if He teaches them and draws them to the Son.

Nobody is saying that anyone gets a free pass, you did not get one in that your battle is ongoing to destroy the enmity between you and your Father, your carnal mind. And the perfecting
of your faith, which He actually does for us.
They too will have the same battle take place when they are called to begin that process. It is simply up to Him to decide when they will begin.

Romans 11:32 KJV "For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that He may have mercy on ALL."
NKJV "For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all."
NLT "For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so He could have mercy on everyone."
ESV "For God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on ALL.
That list goes on and on in all versions and there can be no misinterpretation as to what verse says. Its a black and white verse.

The problem as I see it is that very few understand the righteousness of God which is one of the two things we are to seek first. And until that is figured out the rest cannot be added.
I refer to Romans 3

 

[Christ4Ever]

I will only say that in order for one to come to Christ to learn the truth, they must be drawn by the Father. And the FAITH necessary to believe is also GIVEN by the Father as a gift.
None of us would understand without having been given the gift and having been drawn by God to the Son.
Once those things happen there was a change in us, a repentance, a change of mind etc.... but it did not happen until AFTER God revealed those truths to us.
If we take credit for what He has given then we declare self righteousness, "I have accepted" NO it was a gift that you can only say thank you for.
Once God decides to call the ALL mentioned in the verses that I quoted the ALL will eventually repent and do what we do now which is to follow Jesus into an eternal inheritance.

I believe that you do not understand yet that ALL things are up to God to make happen and that He has a will that involves ALL men.
He condemned ALL due to Adams disobedience, and He justified ALL due to the righteous act of Jesus. He can and does do whatsoever He wills and He will have all come into the knowledge
of the truth.

1 Tim 2:4
KJV "Who will have ALL men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth."
NKJV "Who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
NLT "Who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth."
NET " Since He wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
YLT "Who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth."
WEB "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

I think we get His intent no matter what version we use?? For His will, desire, want is the same in all cases. And if we add that He wants, wills, or desires ALL to come to the knowledge
of the truth, the only way thats gonna happen is if He teaches them and draws them to the Son.

Nobody is saying that anyone gets a free pass, you did not get one in that your battle is ongoing to destroy the enmity between you and your Father, your carnal mind. And the perfecting
of your faith, which He actually does for us.
They too will have the same battle take place when they are called to begin that process. It is simply up to Him to decide when they will begin.

Romans 11:32 KJV "For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that He may have mercy on ALL."
NKJV "For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all."
NLT "For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so He could have mercy on everyone."
ESV "For God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on ALL.
That list goes on and on in all versions and there can be no misinterpretation as to what verse says. Its a black and white verse.

The problem as I see it is that very few understand the righteousness of God which is one of the two things we are to seek first. And until that is figured out the rest cannot be added.
I refer to Romans 3

Dear Brother,
I can only assume this post was directed in response to my last one to you.

I will say that it is necessary to know the difference between "exegesis" and "eisegesis". Which is why I pointed out the ASV usage.

I'm amazed that you grab a verse out of context to make your point! Looking at the verse you quoted, Romans 11:32, which you were kind enough to provide different versions of, but regardless of which one used, the context remains the same. I ask you, who was Paul talking about when he said what he did in that particular verse? Was it "all" the people in the world or was it "all" as in the Nation of Israeli? Keeping in mind the depth of what he says earlier in that chapter about being grafted to/removed, and the acceptance/receiving or disbelief by those who are.

I'm glad you mentioned Romans 3, because I fully acknowledge not understanding His righteousness unless it is through the acceptance of Christ Jesus. What about you? Do you have faith in Jesus and so are justified by God because of it? I'm pretty sure you do, but I'm also pretty sure that the entirety of the people in the World does not.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Samson2020]

Dear Brother,
I can only assume this post was directed in response to my last one to you.

I will say that it is necessary to know the difference between "exegesis" and "eisegesis". Which is why I pointed out the ASV usage.

I'm amazed that you grab a verse out of context to make your point! Looking at the verse you quoted, Romans 11:32, which you were kind enough to provide different versions of, but regardless of which one used, the context remains the same. I ask you, who was Paul talking about when he said what he did in that particular verse? Was it "all" the people in the world or was it "all" as in the Nation of Israeli? Keeping in mind the depth of what he says earlier in that chapter about being grafted to/removed, and the acceptance/receiving or disbelief by those who are.

I'm glad you mentioned Romans 3, because I fully acknowledge not understanding His righteousness unless it is through the acceptance of Christ Jesus. What about you? Do you have faith in Jesus and so are justified by God because of it? I'm pretty sure you do, but I'm also pretty sure that the entirety of the people in the World does not.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

Tell me who in the entire world history was not condemned by the Father from the womb? Can you honestly believe that only the Romans he wrote to are the ALL Paul is speaking about?
It has been written to any who can read or hear what is written.
And of course the entirety of the world does not for they have yet to be called to begin the process of BECOMING a son of God. They remain vessels to dishonor until God calls them.
As I said nobody gets a free ride into becoming a son of God, but once they are given the power to become, they have begun their race. That is earned by the laying down of your
present life. "Save your life, lose it. Lose your life, save it"

As far as the 17th century invention of exegesis vs eisegesis I care not, for it is the Holy Spirit who wrote the book that interprets what the truth actually is. 1 John 2:26
assuming any interpretation is needed.

I listed several versions of the same verses and they all say the same thing. This you apparently deny for somehow you believe you deserve what you get and so does everybody
else according to what they accept? Or reject?

Problem is that most have been BLINDED and HARDENED by God so that they cannot see nor hear......... John 12:40 And since they cannot see nor hear from being blinded and
hardened how can they be responsible for not seeing nor hearing? Much less accepting or rejecting what they cannot understand.

Again the majority of the world is not the concern of the Father at the moment. His primary concern is the completion of the firstfruits sons, for His manifesting of them is what will
set the creation free from the bondage that it is in, which He placed it in on purpose. Rom 8:20

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by FAITH of Jesus Christ unto ALL and upon ALL WHO believe: for there is no difference;
23-For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
24-Being JUSTIFIED FREELY by His GRACE through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
26-To declare at this time His righteousness that He might be just and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27-Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Eph 2:8 For by GRACE are ye SAVED through FAITH and that(faith) not of yourselves, it(faith) is the GIFT of God. 9-Not of works lest any man should boast.

Your "acceptance" of Jesus Christ is from a GIFT you received from God-(FAITH), allowing you to believe, thus God is the one who is your justifier. And by this shows His righteousness.
The law of faith is basically one in which God is the dispenser of faith unto those whom have been chosen at this present time and called to understand, thus the blinders
and hardeners have been removed. This is what no man can do for himself thus there is no works or boasting of "acceptance" that allows one to believe or say they deserve anything,
they can only praise God that He has provided this for them and given them the necessary tool to believe in what God has done through Christ Jesus.

Just a quick question. I did a word search on accepting Christ, it isn't in the Bible that I can find so not really sure where the idea comes from. Maybe you can provide reference?

For your consideration.

 

[Christ4Ever]

I'm glad you mentioned Romans 3, because I fully acknowledge not understanding His righteousness unless it is through the acceptance of Christ Jesus.

Just a quick question. I did a word search on accepting Christ, it isn't in the Bible that I can find so not really sure where the idea comes from. Maybe you can provide reference?

Dear Brother,
Keep in mind that belief/repentance is also a necessity, but you might want to refer to the very chapter you quoted, Romans 11:15 for an answer to your question.

For if their being cast away [is] the reconciling of the world, what [will] their acceptance [be] but life from the dead? Romans 11:15 NKJV
There are other versions that also use acceptance. Just saying.

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by FAITH of Jesus Christ unto ALL and upon ALL WHO believe: for there is no difference;
23-For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
24-Being JUSTIFIED FREELY by His GRACE through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
26-To declare at this time His righteousness that He might be just and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27-Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Eph 2:8 For by GRACE are ye SAVED through FAITH and that(faith) not of yourselves, it(faith) is the GIFT of God. 9-Not of works lest any man should boast.

Your "acceptance" of Jesus Christ is from a GIFT you received from God-(FAITH), allowing you to believe, thus God is the one who is your justifier. And by this shows His righteousness.
The law of faith is basically one in which God is the dispenser of faith unto those whom have been chosen at this present time and called to understand, thus the blinders
and hardeners have been removed. This is what no man can do for himself thus there is no works or boasting of "acceptance" that allows one to believe or say they deserve anything,
they can only praise God that He has provided this for them and given them the necessary tool to believe in what God has done through Christ Jesus.

Now who is being talked to in Romans 3:22 and this chapter? First believers who are Gentiles and about the Jews! Again, context! I have a sense you might say that the important part that includes everyone in the World is "...for there is no difference;" but in context you see it is specific even if you overlook "upon ALL WHO believe..."

Eph 2:8 For by GRACE are ye SAVED through FAITH and that(faith) not of yourselves, it(faith) is the GIFT of God. 9-Not of works lest any man should boast.

Again, context. Who is Paul speaking to? (sigh)

I listed several versions of the same verses and they all say the same thing. This you apparently deny for somehow you believe you deserve what you get and so does everybody
else according to what they accept? Or reject?

Problem is that most have been BLINDED and HARDENED by God so that they cannot see nor hear......... John 12:40 And since they cannot see nor hear from being blinded and
hardened how can they be responsible for not seeing nor hearing? Much less accepting or rejecting what they cannot understand.

Are you saying that I'm blinded by God? I sense that you are becoming frustrated and upset with me. Could it be that I'm having you consider context is the cause? Don't you know that these verse numbering were not part of the original documents, but added later in order to facilitate referencing specific portions of the letters that were being used in discussions between the learned through the writing of letters? It was done to make a specific point, but never to exclude the context of the original document and how it was written.

I love it that you use John 12:40! Again, and again, "CONTEXT". Who was Jesus talking about? Since you have mentioned previously that the New Covenant had not come into effect yet, it must mean that He was talking about the Nation of Israel and clearly not us!!!

Dear Brother. I'm not trying to make fun of what you clearly believe to be true, but I do ask that you to consider what the rest of the Word of God has to say.

Tell me who in the entire world history was not condemned by the Father from the womb? Can you honestly believe that only the Romans he wrote to are the ALL Paul is speaking about?
It has been written to any who can read or hear what is written.
And of course the entirety of the world does not for they have yet to be called to begin the process of BECOMING a son of God. They remain vessels to dishonor until God calls them.
As I said nobody gets a free ride into becoming a son of God, but once they are given the power to become, they have begun their race. That is earned by the laying down of your
present life. "Save your life, lose it. Lose your life, save it"

As far as the 17th century invention of exegesis vs eisegesis I care not, for it is the Holy Spirit who wrote the book that interprets what the truth actually is. 1 John 2:26
assuming any interpretation is needed.

I listed several versions of the same verses and they all say the same thing. This you apparently deny for somehow you believe you deserve what you get and so does everybody
else according to what they accept? Or reject?

It appears I'm working backwards on your post!!!

You really didn't tie the first two sentences together, did you? (Heavy sigh)
Paul was actually talking to those he wrote the letter to!!! Care to guess who they were?
That we also use it, is also without a doubt valid, but to say the audience that he was writing to is inconsequential to its interpretation is just wrong. It provides one context, and through the Holy Spirit provides one true understanding!

Note: I'll be editing your post when I'm done posting this, where you typed "is 1 John 2:26". If you hover over it in your post you will see that it references Isaiah & only John and not 1 John 2:26.

Do you really believe that I'm trying to deceive you? Foolish me (irony) to deceive you by telling you to read the entirety of Scripture and not chop it up like a crossword puzzle to mix and match as you will to suit your own doctrine? That kind of deception?

This is why I believe that I've frustrated you. I'm sorry not for the frustration because that will help you to consider more of the Word of God instead of bits and pieces of it, but rather for my own failings in presenting you with words that you clearly are unable to understand/digest. My apologies for my lack.

I say lack because yes you have listed "several versions of the same verses (except for that time on the ASV verse) and they all say the same thing. This you apparently deny for somehow you believe you deserve what you get and so does everybody else according to what they accept? Or reject?" And I say lack because telling you to read more of Scripture to acquire a greater understanding of the verses you use is perceived as me trying to deceive you!!! Amazing, really when you think about it.

Now back to it, and hopefully without any insulting comments.

I am curious about this additional comment you have made. Do, you believe that everyone in the World will "be called to begin the process of BECOMING a son of God. They remain vessels to dishonor until God calls them."

Will this happen before they die in this world?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Victor VanHeerden]

"Unscritpural is adding the word 'horror' to hell. There is no scripture that mentions 'horrors' in hell."

Pedantic are we- horror - noun

1. An intense, painful feeling of repugnance and fear.
2. A state or condition marked by this feeling: synonym: fear.
3. An intense dislike or abhorrence.

Could not agree more. Do you have a scripture that says there are horrors in hell?



God is good and will not repay evil with evil. It is only wicked people who would want that. All who go to hell will be judged by a good God Psalm 136:1 and punished according to their deeds Rom 2:6.



What makes you say the word torture? Are you insinuating God will do something like this? Brazen bull - Wikipedia



As he sees fit? You make it sound like God perverts justice. God does not Job 34:12. Do you have a scripture that says He does?



Jesus did not mention 'horrific punishment'. That is your insertion.

1. Unscritpural is adding the word 'horror' to hell. There is no scripture that mentions 'horrors' in hell.

Jesus did say hell is a terrible place to be, yes. Eternal separation and punishment for sin by fire is an important fact for the wicked to be aware of.



Why quote that verse. There is a harsher one in Rev 2:10, namely death.

It is better to die a martyr, chop off a body part then spend eternity in hell. Correct. This does not mean God will torture those that go there. Eternal separation and an agonising Luke 16 type fire every time you sin is sufficient reason.

I challenge you to go ask any husband or wife whose spouse is divorcing them if they would chop off a finger to keep them. Or, ask any loving parent if they would not lay their lives down for the chance to see their children again.

Hell is terrible when compared to heaven. God is someone we should fear. Fact. Not because He is wicked or hell is 'horrendous' as you keep wanting to insinuate and incriminate God on. Rather, as God is able to judge our hearts at depths of intent Jer 17:9-12 and He is 'God of all'. As such, God can and will separate the unrepentant sinners from the repentant sinners for all eternity. This is most certainly a terrifying truth for any in unrepentant sin.

 

[Victor VanHeerden]

Unscritpural is adding the word 'horror' to hell. There is no scripture that mentions 'horrors' in hell.



Could not agree more. Do you have a scripture that says there are horrors in hell?



God is good and will not repay evil with evil. It is only wicked people who would want that. All who go to hell will be judged by a good God Psalm 136:1 and punished according to their deeds Rom 2:6.



What makes you say the word torture? Are you insinuating God will do something like this? Brazen bull - Wikipedia



As he sees fit? You make it sound like God perverts justice. God does not Job 34:12. Do you have a scripture that says He does?



Jesus did not mention 'horrific punishment'. That is your insertion.

Jesus did say hell is a terrible place to be, yes. Eternal separation and punishment for sin by fire is an important fact for the wicked to be aware of.



Why quote that verse. There is a harsher one in Rev 2:10, namely death.

It is better to die a martyr, chop off a body part then spend eternity in hell. Correct. This does not mean God will torture those that go there. Eternal separation and an agonising Luke 16 type fire every time you sin is sufficient reason.

I challenge you to go ask any husband or wife whose spouse is divorcing them if they would chop off a finger to keep them. Or, ask any loving parent if they would not lay their lives down for the chance to see their children again.

Hell is terrible when compared to heaven. God is someone we should fear. Fact. Not because He is wicked or hell is 'horrendous' as you keep wanting to insinuate and incriminate God on. Rather, as God is able to judge our hearts at depths of intent Jer 17:9-12 and He is 'God of all'. As such, God can and will separate the unrepentant sinners from the repentant sinners for all eternity. This is most certainly a terrifying truth for any in unrepentant sin.

You forget or ignore one issue - which is pertinent to the discussion.

God has designed the punishment in Hell for Satan and fallen angels. Humans end up their by a very simple qualification.

Who is their Father?

Are they children of God or of Satan.

Those are the only deeds or criteria looked at at the Great White Throne Judgement. Simple as that. No one goes to heaven or hell because of their good deeds or lack of. But based on where do they belong.

Children of God belong in heaven and Children of Satan belong in hell.

Therefore the punishment meted out by a fair, righteous and dutiful God falls on Satan, Fallen Angels and Children of Satan. Not just on unbelieving, unrepentant humans. God does not distinguish. All in Hell suffer same punishment. All in heaven do not. A child can understand that.

Jn 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

God’s wrath is to be feared because he is powerful enough to do what he promises. And He promises eternal punishment.

Matt25:46 And these will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

You quoted from Romans a letter directed and addressed to the Christian church at Rome, whose congregation St Paul hoped to visit for the first time. Therefore when he states:

Rom 2:6 - Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

St Paul is referring to the Bema Seat Judgement of Christ - where repentant Children of God believers will be judged according to their works for Christ after they meet Christ. So they can receive rewards in heaven. It is one of the prominent doctrines of the NT. Doctrine of Rewards dished out at the Judgment Seat of Christ. The term, Bema Seat, is taken from the Greek word for judgment, bēma. So it is referred to it as the Bema Seat because it is a fathomable picture of how Jesus is set above us and therefore He has entitlement and a legal duty to render judgment to His church.

2Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Rom 14:10. You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister ? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.

1Cor 3;12 ,13 ............his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man's work.

 

[KingJ]

Pedantic are we- horror - noun

1. An intense, painful feeling of repugnance and fear.
2. A state or condition marked by this feeling: synonym: fear.
3. An intense dislike or abhorrence.

We need to be pedantic. Torment can be defined as torture. Yet there is a world of difference between agonizing fire mentioned in Luke 16 verse something like a brazen bull.

The word horror can be used to explain a childs reaction to their unfavourable school test result. If your use of it is something like that you need to better explain yourself. But from reading your posts, you know as well as I do that that is not what you are insinuating. You are pushing a narrative of hell that uses the worst version of the '''''noun''''.

 

[KingJ]

You forget or ignore one issue - which is pertinent to the discussion.

God has designed the punishment in Hell for Satan and fallen angels. Humans end up their by a very simple qualification.

1. Hell was prepared for the fallen angels as they first sinned. Satan tempted Adam. If Adam sinned first, God would say to angels, a place prepared for humans.
2. Heb 2:7 explains that there is not much difference between us and angels.

You have a warped interpretation of Matt 25:41 and keep pushing the idea that God will pervert justice by punishing humans with the punishment due for fallen angels.

Matt 25:41 is a scripture you have cherry picked to support a false view of God and hell.

God does not pervert justice Job 34:12 and God punishes each according to their deeds Rom 2:6.

Who is their Father?

Are they children of God or of Satan.

Those are the only deeds or criteria looked at at the Great White Throne Judgement. Simple as that. No one goes to heaven or hell because of their good deeds or lack of. But based on where do they belong.

Children of God belong in heaven and Children of Satan belong in hell.

If Satan was not the first and perhaps worst unrepentant sinner 1 John 3:8, unrepentant sinners would not be called children of satan.

As such the correct phrase is not '''children of X belong in heaven and children of Y in hell''. Unrepentant sinners belong in hell. Repentant sinners belong in heaven.

Therefore the punishment meted out by a fair, righteous and dutiful God falls on Satan, Fallen Angels and Children of Satan. Not just on unbelieving, unrepentant humans. God does not distinguish. All in Hell suffer same punishment. All in heaven do not. A child can understand that.

No. God does not pervert justice Job 34:12, is a righteous judge Psalm 145:17 and rewards each according to their deeds Rom 2:6.

As such, if I go to hell I will not pay for Adam's sin. I will not pay for Satan's sins. A child can also understand that.

Jn 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

It is the 'one' job of a Christian to explain a verse like this. You are cherry picking it to push an unscriptural narrative of God being displeased solely because you 'in the wrong church'. Rejecting Jesus requires one to resist the Holy Spirit and harden their heart to repentance of sin. Accepting Jesus, requires one to soften their heart and be given a faith of Jesus being Lord as explained in more detail here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

God’s wrath is to be feared because he is powerful enough to do what he promises. And He promises eternal punishment.

Matt25:46 And these will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

Correct. We only disagree on the punishment. Actual scripture verse your insinuated ''horrors''.

You quoted from Romans a letter directed and addressed to the Christian church at Rome, whose congregation St Paul hoped to visit for the first time. Therefore when he states:

Rom 2:6 - Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

St Paul is referring to the Bema Seat Judgement of Christ - where repentant Children of God believers will be judged according to their works for Christ after they meet Christ. So they can receive rewards in heaven. It is one of the prominent doctrines of the NT. Doctrine of Rewards dished out at the Judgment Seat of Christ. The term, Bema Seat, is taken from the Greek word for judgment, bēma. So it is referred to it as the Bema Seat because it is a fathomable picture of how Jesus is set above us and therefore He has entitlement and a legal duty to render judgment to His church.

Incorrect. Paul is talking to the church, sure, about how those with unrepentant hearts judge others. It is a verse directly related to the wicked. You just need to read verse 5 to see the context of verse 6.

Rom 2:1-6 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.

There are many more scriptures I can quote. Every scripture that states God is just will work as well. Eze 18:20 is a probably the more popular one.

Eze 18:20 The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

2Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Rom 14:10. You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister ? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.

1Cor 3;12 ,13 ............his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man's work.

Not sure why you quoting these verses. Both the Bema seat and the White throne will be before Jesus / God. Both will be 'just' hearings.

 

[Victor VanHeerden]

You have a warped interpretation of Matt 25:41 and keep pushing the idea that God will pervert justice by punishing humans with the punishment due for fallen angels.

Yep.

Are you saying Hell has different departments so that levels of punishment vary?

Satan - as the ring leader gets the most and worst?

Beguiled fallen heavenly angels - next in line for lesser pain?

Then human Children of Satan - for the least?

 

[Victor VanHeerden]

There are many more scriptures I can quote. Every scripture that states God is just will work as well. Eze 18:20 is a probably the more popular one.

Some more as well.

Depicting the consequences of the wrath/anger of God being meted out as fair and just punishment upon the wicked. And the fact that God will NOT withdraw his punishment, nor spare it nor feel any pity for those under it.

Esk 7:4 For My eye will have no pity on you, nor will I spare you, but I will bring your ways upon you, and your abominations will be among you; then you will know that I am the Lord!’

2Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Deut 32:22 For my wrath is a flaming fire, burning to the deep parts of the underworld, burning up the earth with her increase, and firing the deep roots of the mountains.

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid. Trembling has seized the profane. Who among us can dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us can dwell with everlasting burning?

Hebs10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?