Beliefs of RCC / Biblical?

[KingJ]

Mass - in my opinion the biggest on-going sin of the RCC.

Probably 90% of Protestant denominations do not have priests. (We are called 'protestants, because we are "protest"ing the RCC church)
Anglicans, Episcopalians, and some Lutheran (ELCA) churches still have priests. (Many Protestant churches do not recognize these churches as "Protestant" for this very reason).
The purpose of a priest in the OT ... you confessed your sins to a priest (the common people in the OT could not talk directly to God) He decided what the cost of your sin was
and sacrificed an animal accordingly. (small sin = small sacrifice, big sin = big sacrifice). Being a priest was a bloody job. The RCC still has confession booths,
apparently you can't confess to Jesus directly.

In Mass (unlike Protestant communion) a priest has to perform the ceremony. They believe in something called "transubstantiation". The bread or cracker actually becomes the body
of Christ (not just a symbol) and the juice or wine actually becomes the blood of Jesus (not just a symbol).

In effect they are re-crucifying Jesus during every Mass.

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

In the RCC's case they just ensure that the ''brother'' is someone who lives an upright life and is beyond reproach. Not a 1 Cor 5:1 type 'brother'.

 

[Sue D.]

It was my understanding the Anglican church as a whole approves of this. As does the United Methodist church and Lutheran ELCA churches here in the US.

Lots of non-Biblical things are being allowed in churches these days. We still need to uphold Biblical ethics / morality / standards.

 

[KingJ]

The purpose is not to condemn anyone -- it is to present Biblical reasons for what we are doing. Aren't 'we' trying to follow God's Word? Traditions are good / okay -- as long as they are not contracting God's Word. God's Word tells us of God's plan for all of us to have relationship with Him. Not on our terms, but on His.

There were no denominations back in Pauls' time. A person was either a follower of Jesus Christ or they weren't.

We can and ''must'' judge each other. 1 Cor 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within. We must ensure we do so righteously John 7:24. No assumptions, grudges, stretching truth and lies.

Paul spent a lot of time correcting and trying to align the teaching at the various churches he started.

He made two profound statements that I believe we need to consider when we judge our brothers in Christ.

1. 1 Cor 2:2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

2. Rom 14:5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.

We are utterly out of line if we sling mud at brothers in Christ. RCC members have a relationship with Jesus.

 

[Sue D.]

Greetings KingJ

do you have a picture of Jesus?

Sometimes our reasoning can get in the way.

Grace and Peace to you, Brother


Bless you ....><>

I was going to ask King J. why he'd kiss a picture of his wife when he has the real person to kiss.

 

[KingJ]

I was going to ask King J. why he'd kiss a picture of his wife when he has the real person to kiss.

Would you say a prayer is on par with a hug and kiss?

We can make telephone calls to Jesus. Good luck telling a husband who works away from his wife for even a week, to not keep a photo of her.

 

[KingJ]

Greetings KingJ

do you have a picture of Jesus?

Sometimes our reasoning can get in the way.

Grace and Peace to you, Brother


Bless you ....><>

I don't. I should though. He is my first love. I have pictures of my wife and kids (second love).

 

[Brother-Paul]

I disagree.

If I have a picture of my wife and kiss it, it is not weird. My thoughts are focused on her, not the piece of paper. The picture helps to better visualize her.

It is only a Rom 14:5 disagreement.

You are kissing the picture, you are not worshipping her.

Big difference my friend.

 

[KingJ]

The RCC also pray for salvation of those that have died the first death. They may not be the only ones.

We all get the same chance, to come to God through Jesus and be saved, or to reject Him and later pay the consequences for that discission.

We can and must pray for their salvation up to first death, beyond that their fate will be known in hades and the final judgement.

I feel you are not correctly representing their belief here.

The teaching on Purgatory has got its merits. It is a 'forgivable / understandable' belief.

Those not ''sold out'' to wickedness go there. They get a second chance to make right.

How many near death encounters have you heard of? There are many. The scenario is ''person X not completely sold out to wickedness, gets a visit from Jesus just before death and makes right with Jesus''. The theory on Purgatory is no different. It could be those who die whilst not being sold out to wickedness. Granted they ''work'' to make amends.

I mean for ''crying out aloud'', the reality of hell is an eternal separation from God. You have to be an individual utterly sold out to loving what is wicked with absolutely no hope or chance of repentance.

I come more unstuck with those who teach we can lose our salvation.

 

[Brother-Paul]

perhaps we ought pray for the man?


Bless you ....><>

We should brother.


I also think, especially with the turmoil in the world, we should pray for world leaders, for all in authority.

We should at least pray ISRAEL, I did due to second election this year, again no outright government, they need our prayers.

UK with all the Brexit issues and the EU leaders

USA with all their issues

Then we start and can pray for every country worldwide, the middle East, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Turkey, further afield China, Russia, North and south Korea, Japan, Hong Kong, coming back, or going round which ever way we view it, Canada, South Africa, the world is a MESS.

We pray God's will in all these countries, in all the countries in the world, for all in authority, especially ISRAEL, not just because of the elections, but it is God's chosen ground, it is more important here than any other part of the world that God's will be done especially in these final days.

May we all pray as the Holy Spirit guides us, in Jesus Name. Amen

 

[KingJ]

You are kissing the picture, you are not worshipping her.

Big difference my friend.

Would you say people wanting to touch Jesus's clothes as He walked by were wicked?

If I had a cross on me and threw it in the toilet, would Jesus be offended?

If I burnt my bible would Jesus be offended?

It is no different. I would also never worship my wife.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I feel you are not correctly representing their belief here.

The teaching on Purgatory has got its merits. It is a 'forgivable / understandable' belief.

Those not ''sold out'' to wickedness go there. They get a second chance to make right.

How many near death encounters have you heard of? There are many. The scenario is ''person X not completely sold out to wickedness, gets a visit from Jesus just before death and makes right with Jesus''. The theory on Purgatory is no different. It could be those who die whilst not being sold out to wickedness. Granted they ''work'' to make amends.

I mean for ''crying out aloud'', the reality of hell is an eternal separation from God. You have to be an individual utterly sold out to loving what is wicked with absolutely no hope or chance of repentance.

I come more unstuck with those who teach we can lose our salvation.

Dear brother, you are referring above to last minute salvation, they are still alive in this life. You are referring to near death encounters, at that point they are still alive in this life, there is chance for all to repent right up to the last breath, we pray for their salvation right up to the right breath, it is in God's hands the second they die the first death. The first death being the end of our earthly life.

I never mentioned anything about losing salvation, my reference is, a 'lost soul' can be saved right up to last breath, first death. But we cannot pray for salvation of the dead, we can but it is pointless.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Would you say people wanting to touch Jesus's clothes as He walked by were wicked?

If I had a cross on me and threw it in the toilet, would Jesus be offended?

If I burnt my bible would Jesus be offended?

It is no different. I would also never worship my wife.

I do not see how you cannot see the difference.

To kiss a picture of your wife, that you love, is not worship.

Kneeling down, looking up and staring at a graven image of Jesus is worship. Our Saviour, our Lord, is sat at the Right Hand of the Father in Heaven, we are not to create graven images. Jesus is in Heaven with the Father, He is not on the cross, He is resurrected, They the RCC are putting a graven image of Christ on the cross to help members worship, I have seen them knelt down, entranced at the graven image. Every RCC also has the graven image of Mary near a tomb.

Lets say for a moment you miss the Rapture, you go through the Tribulation Period, into the Great Tribulation Period, a graven image is created of the Beast, you are to kneel down and worship him. You would choose to be a martyr and not kneel down and worship him, because you know he is the beast, but you say it is right to kneel down and worship Jesus on the Cross. They are both, or will be both, graven images.

Scripture tells us not to worship graven images.

 

[Dave M]

correct me if i am wrong (i was once before)
Mass is a funeral 'service'

Hey Bear this makes twice for you I grew up catholic and it has taken a long time to brake the habit of saying mass that is what it is called when we go to the church building

Mass, the central act of worship of the Roman Catholic Church, which culminates in celebration of the sacrament of the Eucharist. The term mass is derived from the ecclesiastical Latin formula for the dismissal of the congregation: Ite, missa est (“Go, it is the sending [dismissal]”).

 

[Brother-Paul]

This is silly brother.

The item in the topic we are discussing here is, IDOL worship.

Would you say people wanting to touch Jesus's clothes as He walked by were wicked?

When people touched Jesus clothes He was in them! If they worship Him then, as they did, they worship the true living Jesus. Not an idol.

If I had a cross on me and threw it in the toilet, would Jesus be offended?

Jesus would not be offended, one you are not worshipping the cross, you are not worshipping an idol, two it is materialist.
The Catholic's usually where a crucifix, Jesus on the cross, some may wear just a cross but most of those I have met wore a crucifix.

If I burnt my bible would Jesus be offended?

No because you are not worshipping the Bible, we worship in Spirit and Truth.
No because The Word is in you, He knows your heart.

It is no different. I would also never worship my wife.

Of course you wouldn't worship your wife, the the examle of you kissing a picture of her is not idol worship.

None of the above are.

 

[Sue D.]

I feel you are not correctly representing their belief here.

The teaching on Purgatory has got its merits. It is a 'forgivable / understandable' belief.

Those not ''sold out'' to wickedness go there. They get a second chance to make right.

How many near death encounters have you heard of? There are many. The scenario is ''person X not completely sold out to wickedness, gets a visit from Jesus just before death and makes right with Jesus''. The theory on Purgatory is no different. It could be those who die whilst not being sold out to wickedness. Granted they ''work'' to make amends.

I mean for ''crying out aloud'', the reality of hell is an eternal separation from God. You have to be an individual utterly sold out to loving what is wicked with absolutely no hope or chance of repentance.

I come more unstuck with those who teach we can lose our salvation.

The existance of purgatory does not agree with the rest of Scripture -- Scripture teaches that upon death we are either in the presence of the Lord or in Hades waiting for white throne judgement. No middle ground.
Our chances to 'get it right' are Now -- here in this life -- on earth.

Yes, the reality of hell IS eternal -- total separation from God. But we are given God's way to avoid hell -- through His Son, Jesus Christ. John 14:6 Jesus Christ is telling us that "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me."

You feel that only someone / people who are totally sold out to sin are going to end up in hell. Well -- a person could Also be a really good, morally upright person and Still not accept God's Way of salvation and end up in hell.

Maybe a person Should confront their own sinfulness OR their pretty good life and consider God's gift of salvation -- and Not plan on a temporary 'fix' in purgatory and then a trip to heaven. Because the shock they get when there is no purgatory will be eternal shock and Much worse.

And God's Word assures us that we can't loose our salvation. Because the Holy Spirit comes immediately to indwell us and won't leave us until we are with Jesus. And that Also means that the Holy Spirit Will give us New desires / we will have inner peace in our hearts.

 

[Brother-Paul]

The existance of purgatory does not agree with the rest of Scripture -- Scripture teaches that upon death we are either in the presence of the Lord or in Hades waiting for white throne judgement. No middle ground.
Our chances to 'get it right' are Now -- here in this life -- on earth.

Yes, the reality of hell IS eternal -- total separation from God. But we are given God's way to avoid hell -- through His Son, Jesus Christ. John 14:6 Jesus Christ is telling us that "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me."

You feel that only someone / people who are totally sold out to sin are going to end up in hell. Well -- a person could Also be a really good, morally upright person and Still not accept God's Way of salvation and end up in hell.

Maybe a person Should confront their own sinfulness OR their pretty good life and consider God's gift of salvation -- and Not plan on a temporary 'fix' in purgatory and then a trip to heaven. Because the shock they get when there is no purgatory will be eternal shock and Much worse.

And God's Word assures us that we can't loose our salvation. Because the Holy Spirit comes immediately to indwell us and won't leave us until we are with Jesus. And that Also means that the Holy Spirit Will give us New desires / we will have inner peace in our hearts.

I totally agree Sue,

Regarding the last paragraph I would just add, if I may, providing we have received God's Salvation, if not we are destined for Hades and judgement.

 

[Sue D.]

This is silly brother.

The item in the topic we are discussing here is, IDOL worship.




When people touched Jesus clothes He was in them! If they worship Him then, as they did, they worship the true living Jesus. Not an idol.




Jesus would not be offended, one you are not worshipping the cross, you are not worshipping an idol, two it is materialist.
The Catholic's usually where a crucifix, Jesus on the cross, some may wear just a cross but most of those I have met wore a crucifix.




No because you are not worshipping the Bible, we worship in Spirit and Truth.
No because The Word is in you, He knows your heart.




Of course you wouldn't worship your wife, the the examle of you kissing a picture of her is not idol worship.

None of the above are.

Personally -- IF I had a cross with or without Christ being on it -- I would Not throw it in the toilet -- or whatever you said you did with it. I would take care of it.

And, Why would a believer burn their Bible. If I were God and you burned My Holy Word -- well -- from a human standpoint, that would be akin to the unforgiveable sin.

On FaceBook there have been pictures of churches that have burned and the Bibles have been left Unburned.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I wasn't taking g the bait on this one Sue.

Some of the comments being put forward were so silly I couldn't believe KingJ was adding them.

Bless you

 

[Sue D.]

We can and ''must'' judge each other. 1 Cor 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within. We must ensure we do so righteously John 7:24. No assumptions, grudges, stretching truth and lies.

Paul spent a lot of time correcting and trying to align the teaching at the various churches he started.

He made two profound statements that I believe we need to consider when we judge our brothers in Christ.

1. 1 Cor 2:2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

2. Rom 14:5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.

We are utterly out of line if we sling mud at brothers in Christ. RCC members have a relationship with Jesus.

A person who accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior has a relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

When there is a brother in Christ who is doing things/ acting in ways that are unScriptural -- there is a need to approach that person in private 1st with our concern and in a loving manner. They need to be shown from God's Word what it is that they are doing because they are influencing others around them. And it Might be an indication that they might not be born-again After all. But in a loving, concerned way -- Not being judgmental. But if that 1st approach isn't 'successful' then another person should be included in another private conversation. But at That point, the person being approached will either 'see the light' or decide to fellowship somewhere else. But make that effort to get to the person 'in question'. Why are they doing, acting, talking the way they do.

Mud slinging is never appropriate. But with some people -- anyone who disagrees with them is 'mud slinging'. There Is the Biblical way of doing things and Other ways.

 

[Sue D.]

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

In the RCC's case they just ensure that the ''brother'' is someone who lives an upright life and is beyond reproach. Not a 1 Cor 5:1 type 'brother'.

1 Cor 5:1 "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles -- that's a man has his father's wife!"

It sounds like you're saying that as long as a person isn't sleeping with his step-mother that he's okay? that is what 'a man has his father's wife' would be, isn't it? Not like a horrible Gentile?!
But he Could be sleeping with his next door neighbors wife and be okay? I'm being sarcastic and it probably isn't needed.