Biggest need in the church?

[rlowe]

:groupwave: :groupwave: :groupwave:

I voted "Greater interconnection with other churches", but I really meant unity of believer, in spite of any differences in beliefs.

As our forefathers said, "If we do not hang together surely we will hang seperately."

 

[Gracealone]

All through God word, he lifts up his word above his name, so I voted more of Gods word.
How can we love him as we should until we know him.
How can we know Him as we should except through his revelation of himself, through his word.

 

[missi]

some churches are no longer congregations of God but mere congregations of men... which is why churches need greater sense and direction from the Holy Spirit. That is how a Christian life would be amazing and fun - a beautiful, beautiful relationship with the Lord, which is His New Covenant with man -- not a boring, boring routine.............

 

[rethabile]

Biggest need in the church

The Holy Spirit Because He is a God Himself, he is the one who guide us in every thing we do and he is our teacher of the word of God.

 

[ShepherdsHorn]

What churches need.

Christian churches need unity, strength and I know everyone's gonna hate me for saying this , being closer to the traditions set forth by Christ though his Apostles. :shock:
Hear me out, I'm not saying we should be bound by old, dusty traditions, I'm saying we need to be set apart and stronger in our roots.

Some churches are so modern that they are indistinguishable from the world. I would like to see us doing some of the things that go back to the roots of Christianity- and to the Bible. That way we can have more of an identity as a Christian community and not be seen as mere believers who blend in with the rest. People should look at us as a group and say:"Wow, those are Christians! Those people love Christ!"

 

[jiggyfly]

Christian churches need unity, strength and I know everyone's gonna hate me for saying this , being closer to the traditions set forth by Christ though his Apostles. :shock:
Hear me out, I'm not saying we should be bound by old, dusty traditions, I'm saying we need to be set apart and stronger in our roots.

Some churches are so modern that they are indistinguishable from the world. I would like to see us doing some of the things that go back to the roots of Christianity- and to the Bible. That way we can have more of an identity as a Christian community and not be seen as mere believers who blend in with the rest. People should look at us as a group and say:"Wow, those are Christians! Those people love Christ!"

Could you elaborate on what these traditions set by Christ are?

 

[ShepherdsHorn]

Early Church worship

Justin Martyr, a presbyter of Rome (100-165 Ad) in 150 Ad, writes this description of early worship in the Christian church:

“The memoirs of the Apostles are read, as are the writings of the prophets, insofar as time will allow. When the reader is finished, the president in his speech, admonishes and urges all to imitate these worthy examples. Then we all stand and pray together aloud. When the prayers are ended, we greet eachother with a kiss. At this point bread is brought, with wine mixed with water to the president who accepted them and prayed offering up “praise and glory to the father of the universe, through the name of the Son and Holy Spirit” then giving thanks “for our being deemed worthy to recieve these things at his hands.” When he had concluded the prayers and thanksgiving the people consent by saying “amen”. –so be it.
The bread and wine over which the thanksgiving has been said is distributed by the deacons, who later brought the bread and wine to those who could not be at the meeting.
None is allowed to share unless he believes the things, which we teach are true and has been washed with the waters that bring the remission of sins and give second birth, and that lives as Christ ordered us to live. For we do not receive them as ordinary bread and wine- but as Jesus Christ our Savior.”

This form of worship with emphasis on scripture readings, sermons, prayers and communion has often been elaborated on, but in outline, remains unchanged. It was the basic worship pattern for most Christians for 2,000 years.

(Collins, Micheal, Price, Matthew, The story of Christianity: A Celebration of 2,000 Years of Faith, DK Publishing, 1999.)

I don't see many churches blessing their communion nor spending much time on it.

And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles and in the communication of the breaking of bread and in prayers. - Acts 2:42

"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread."
- I Cor 10;16-17


These are traditions that got the Early Christians in Rome accused of cannibalism.
I'm old and dusty I know.

 

[jiggyfly]

Justin Martyr, a presbyter of Rome (100-165 Ad) in 150 Ad, writes this description of early worship in the Christian church:

“The memoirs of the Apostles are read, as are the writings of the prophets, insofar as time will allow. When the reader is finished, the president in his speech, admonishes and urges all to imitate these worthy examples. Then we all stand and pray together aloud. When the prayers are ended, we greet eachother with a kiss. At this point bread is brought, with wine mixed with water to the president who accepted them and prayed offering up “praise and glory to the father of the universe, through the name of the Son and Holy Spirit” then giving thanks “for our being deemed worthy to recieve these things at his hands.” When he had concluded the prayers and thanksgiving the people consent by saying “amen”. –so be it.
The bread and wine over which the thanksgiving has been said is distributed by the deacons, who later brought the bread and wine to those who could not be at the meeting.
None is allowed to share unless he believes the things, which we teach are true and has been washed with the waters that bring the remission of sins and give second birth, and that lives as Christ ordered us to live. For we do not receive them as ordinary bread and wine- but as Jesus Christ our Savior.”

This form of worship with emphasis on scripture readings, sermons, prayers and communion has often been elaborated on, but in outline, remains unchanged. It was the basic worship pattern for most Christians for 2,000 years.

(Collins, Micheal, Price, Matthew, The story of Christianity: A Celebration of 2,000 Years of Faith, DK Publishing, 1999.)

I don't see many churches blessing their communion nor spending much time on it.

And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles and in the communication of the breaking of bread and in prayers. - Acts 2:42

"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread."
- I Cor 10;16-17


These are traditions that got the Early Christians in Rome accused of cannibalism.
I'm old and dusty I know.

While Ignatius and Justin Martyr both teach the same concerning the Eucharist, however this was not the common belief of the first century church nor the Apostles. While it is a tradition of the early church it is still a tradition of man. Much the same as the clergy/laity belief system.

I don't see many churches blessing their communion nor spending much time on it.

This may be true, I haven't been involved in any kind of religious liturgy in several years. But I can not find any reference in the new testament of the first century ekklesia doing it as described in your post. Even the early church was steeped in many man-made religious traditions from Judaism and Paganism. Although Paul spoke, wrote, and taught against it, he said that these things would still filter into their groups and gatherings. He even said that some of the elders at that time would be responsible for leading some astray.

 

[dchena]

What about passion? I didn't answer the poll, because you forgot about passion. Passion to DO God's will. To act. To reach out. To take risks and share God with the world. Passion to love the LORD with all our might and be willing to give our lives to Him, as individuals and as a church.

Passion for Christ, passion for God, can bring us to all other things, without having to rely on our own assessment of the church's needs.

God knows. God has the plan. Love God with our whole hearts and whole minds. This is a priority in the Bible. With this all else will follow, in God's perfect and miraculous ways. Passion will lead us to listen to God, and be willing to act.

 

[ShepherdsHorn]

Baptism

Wow, you guys are quick! I haven't got around to the other part of my discussion. I was going to elaborate on the practice of Communion and Baptism. Here is my part on Baptism.


A lot of churches don’t seem to take Baptism seriously. They baptize with no questions asked. I have seen churches re-baptize those who are already validly baptized “in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit”.
“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism.” -Ephesians 4:4-5
- That additional baptism is playing around with water. Baptism should be seen as entry into the Kingdom of God, an act that confers graces by obedience. It is entering into the Christian faith and should be treated as a promise to God and to the faith. Many see this as an empty “symbol”


“In Christianity Baptism (a word derived from Greek baptizo: "immersing", "performing "ablutions" is the ritual act, with the use of water, by which one is admitted as a full member of the Christian Church and, in the view of some, as a member of the particular Church in which the baptism is administered. The most usual form of baptism among Early Christians was for the candidate to stand in water and water to be poured over the upper body.
Baptism has traditionally been seen by many as necessary for salvation.


Baptism makes the person share in the Trinitarian life of God through "sanctifying grace" the grace of justification that incorporates the person into the body of Christ and his Church), also making the person a sharer in the priesthood of Christ. It imparts the theological virtues such as faith hope and charity and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and marks the baptized person with a spiritual seal or character that indicates permanent belonging to Christ. Baptism is the foundation of communion between all Christians.”


“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. “ – John 3:5
This also matches the wording of Jesus when stating another point central to Early Christianity: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.” - John 6: 53.


The Apostles baptized and broke bread…and they took it very
seriously. What does this have to do with anything? Jesus states that
baptism and communion are central to the faith. They are
incorporating the faithful into His life. When Jesus’s side was pierced,
blood and water poured out. These things are the life of Christ.


“Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by
water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.”
- 1 John 5:5-8


Baptism and Communion in particular is what made Christians distinguishable.
I think that in order for churches to be more unified and strong, they
need to stop reducing Christ’s ordinances to symbols. These were
teachings held dearly by the Apostles, given by Christ. They need to
partake in the blood and water…and be nourished.


Remember Christ tells us that as Christians we are not part of the world, His Kingdom of not of this world- why should we care so much to assimilate ourselves into modernity? Perhaps non-believers are turned off by this "otherworldliness"? Our portrayal of the Kingdom to come?

 

[ShepherdsHorn]

"traditions of men"

The Early Church writers such as Justin Martyr, Ignatius and Polycarp were direct disciples of the Apostles of the Bible. Look it up in any history book on Christianity. They had to go without a New Testament for a while... People forget that. The Apostles taught by oral tradition as well as by their letters. Are you saying that what John taught to Ignatius, which Ignatius wrote down is wrong? Then John got these things wrong and therefore was dismay to Christ? These so-called "traditions of men" in the first place such as the Lord's Supper, Baptism and Healing of the sick, ARE in the Bible! Jesus did these things and told his Apostles to do them.

Do not forget. Scripture is the basis on which doctrine and tradition are formed. That doesn’t dismiss tradition.


“And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.” – 2 Timothy 2:2


“ Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.” -2 Thess 2:15



Christ engaged in Jewish Tradition when he celebrated the
Last Supper at Passover, when the lambs were slain. He knew the
Passover was meaningful to the Jewish people- a reminder of God's
covenant with man, so do the ordinances that Christ gave us such a
The Supper and Baptism remind of God's promises to us.

 

[jiggyfly]

The Early Church writers such as Justin Martyr, Ignatius and Polycarp were direct disciples of the Apostles of the Bible. Look it up in any history book on Christianity. They had to go without a New Testament for a while... People forget that. The Apostles taught by oral tradition as well as by their letters. Are you saying that what John taught to Ignatius, which Ignatius wrote down is wrong? Then John got these things wrong and therefore was dismay to Christ? These so-called "traditions of men" in the first place such as the Lord's Supper, Baptism and Healing of the sick, ARE in the Bible! Jesus did these things and told his Apostles to do them

No, I'm saying that that Ignatius either "added to" or misunderstood what John taught him. John's writings are canonized scripture and Ignatius' are not.

Now, if you want to compare scriptures regarding the Lord's supper, baptism and and healing the sick I'm all for it.

While it is true I am not a direct disciple of Peter, Paul, John or Mary, I am a direct disciple of Jesus and I hope you are too.

 

[ShepherdsHorn]

good idea

That's a good idea. perhaps we can start a forum about Baptism, the Lord's Supper and Healing the sick.

By the way the writings of Ignatius are non canonized Scripture because they are not God-inspired. That doesn't altogether rule out their accuracy as to the Apostle's teachings.

No worries, I'm a disciple of Christ. I see my Pastor and his fellow clergy as teachers but no servant is greater than his Master.

 

[carlos marquez]

Gloria a Dios!!!
What we need is Christianity to slow down and pay attention to all it's needy souls within it's own walls.

No more programs please,these have become factories of wrath.

To much hit and run evangelism,micro management mumbo jumbo,
is driving the needy away.

We need Mass adoption to take place all over the churches.And
by adoption,I mean keeping our spiritual radar on to find and adop
whole families into life long relationships.

Far to many people are dieing of lonesomeness because we are to
busy cliquing with our own croud.
If we can't love all of those within our own walls then how can we
possibly have any love left for the alien,and the stranger?

Let's take a risk,let us put it all on the line.
Those who are spiritualy rich should have
plenty to spare for the needy.

2 Corinthians 8:9.
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ,that,though he was rich,yet for your sakes he became poor,that ye through his poverty might be rich.

 

[ShepherdsHorn]

Good insight.

Carlos, that is good insight. I am one of those people who is incredibly lonely because there aren't people my age within my church community. I am 24, there are teenagers and older adults who all stay in their own "crowds" I am a weirdo everywhere, even in my own church. Put this way, people are intimidated by the piety I show and want nothing to do with me. If it weren't for my Lord, I'd be deserted.

I have been to churches where the congregation is mostly wealthy. I was poor and on welfare. All they did was give my family 20 $ here and there and run off! As if we weren't people wanting friendship too!

The people of Christ's family need to be a community. This isn't high-school, it is the Kingdom of God on earth, where all are welcome.

 

[Gracealone]

In our area, we have many transient people begging on the street corners, with signs crying for help.

The Lord laid it on my heart to give to them.....not just money.
I take a paper bag, small brown one, and add a snack of jerky, cheese stick, dried fruit, nut bar etc. plus a couple dollars, and a small book on the plan of salvation.

When I was growing up, we didn't have Christmas, my family was to poor, so we looked forward to our Christmas program ,where afterward we were given a small brown sack with a few treats.

The Bible gives a principle of where we have been blessed to so give in like manner.

Maybe that is a way you also can serve our Lord.
A little is a lot when given as unto the Lord.

 

[ShepherdsHorn]

Good insight

That is good insight. I am one of those people who is incredibly lonely because there aren't people my age within my church community. I am 24, there are teenagers and older adults who all stay in their own "crowds" I am a weirdo everywhere, even in my own church. Put this way, people are intimidated by the piety I show and want nothing to do with me. If it weren't for my Lord, I'd be deserted.

I have been to churches where the congregation is mostly wealthy. I was poor and on welfare. All they did was give my family 20 $ here and there and run off! As if we weren't people wanting friendship too!

The people of Christ's family need to be a community. This isn't high-school, it is the Kingdom of God on earth, where all are welcome.

 

[carlos marquez]

Blessed be our Lord who so tenderly provives His warmth into our very hearts.Im in tears right now when I read your post shepherdshorn.
It's this very rejection from my conservative brothers and sisters, that has pushed me to go hit the streets in search of God's felons

 

[ShepherdsHorn]

God's felons

That is an interesting term Carlos, "God's felons". It sounds so poetic.
Growing up and looking at all my religious friends I equated God's blessing with material blessing. I always thought "I have holes in my clothes so God must hate me."

Coming to Christ only recently, I realized that Jesus himself had nothing, that his saints were poor in spirit but ever made rich in him, that the martyrs lost their very lives. So I guess suffering should be drawing me close to Him.

It really seems like those on the outside, the outcasts are attracted to a religious community. Many of them have no friends or homes. It's also a good thing to accept weird people (like me ) because they have the potential for spiritual richness.

 

[carlos marquez]

Spending prescious time with our needy will cost us alot more than money,
it may cost us our lives.If I die,when I die,I want to be coughtup doing the
will of God.Im sick of my self ,and now I want to walk with purpose.

And I want to be genuine when lovin folk I dont know.I dont want to compete
inside the church for power,pretiege,or positions.
We will never receave the full benefits of grace until we acknowlege how felonious
and vile of sinners we could be,even while being in possesion of salvation.
If heaven is a real place where all genuine believer will spend eternity ,then why
are Christians so agitated by eachother down here on planet earth?

On my body I still bare the marks of my ugly past.I tryed to have most of my
tattoos erased but I ran out of resouces,my flesh is a mutalated mess.
nevertheless I present my body as a living sacrife unto Christ and he is using
it as a vessel to take His gospel into the getho.