Eric E Stahl
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There seems to be some pride in being predestined when others are not.
Calvinism
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Is it really Calvinism you have difficulty with or is it difficulty in believing that God is God?:
Rom 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"
GaryK51188
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To quote Ferris Bueller: "... -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself."
In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election/predestination (in Christ), 2) Atonement 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)
In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call 2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification.
Kindest regards,
Gary
GaryK51188
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Eric, interesting point.
Someone with the love of Christ taking charge wouldn't think so. Christ wept when He contemplated Jerusalem's people not coming to Him.
Gary
Eric E Stahl
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During the tribulation over 5,000,000 Jews will turn to Jesus.
Eternal Security is. God has His permisive will, His direct will, and our free will. If you are talking about election and free will, Calvinism says people that will be saved are already have their way determined. Those who were by God's design made for hell, and others for heaven, If that's the case why do we send out missions to places in the World? Calvinism has flaws, and I don't bite on the hook.
Are you a believer in Calvinism?
farout
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But what about Romans 9:10-22:
"Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?"
That scripture alone sometimes makes it difficult for me to trust God, since it seems to be about His predestination. If God is loving, why does He predestine certain people to Hell, and why does He have mercy on whom He will have mercy? Shouldn't He give everyone a chance?
I agree with Calvinism, but I still don't fully like everything it says about God. But I feel like I have to like it, since God seems to agree with it from His word.
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Glow
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You misunderstand. I understand it, but I don't necessarily understand God from it, or like what it says about Him. Either way, the Bible seems to agree.
DHC
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Hello James.
Appreciate the reply from you regarding Calvinism. Your interpretation of Romans is incorrect and demonstrates that you are unfamiliar with
the subject of this letter. Here are three verses from Romans that should help to clarify the subject in question.
Romans 9
30 ...That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works.
Paul is explaining why the chosen people of God, the elect, that is Israel, did not achieve righteousness of God!
How can this be Paul you may ask, they had the full revelation of God after all. Israel was the very clay molded for noble use,
they were the literal descendants of Issac! Israel is, and has always been God's people, noble pottery. Please explain yourself Paul!
13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Here is Paul's answer in black and white, Jacob I loved, by faith, the promise. God has predestined that justification is by faith
and not by human will, descent or obedience to the law.
Jacob represents the children of faith, the promise, through faith in Jesus Christ. Esau represents the children of works, law, self righteousness,
not of faith. That is why Israel did not arrive at salvation, they pursued a law of righteousness. They were the elect but became non elect through
a pursuit of the law of righteousness.
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad!
James, the twins had not even been born and God had already chosen according to faith, His will. God predestined that faith
in His Son would be the criteria for salvation. Your missing the very subject of this letter to the Romans James. Your theology is
stumbling, context must be adhered to at all times.
Further in Romans 9.
11...so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works.
By faith and not by works James, vessels for honorable use. Surely after reading so many of Paul's letters you would fail to
understand what Paul is discussing?
The chosen are those who believe in Jesus, not by birth, human will, or works of the law.
This is the will of God that you believe in Jesus Christ. I hope you have not misread the letter to the Romans, James.
Romans is not a difficult letter to read if the subject and context are considered.
DHC
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Hello Glow.
Thanks for your post in answer to my post.
You can trust in Jesus Christ absolutely, He is loving, kind and generous beyond comprehension. You have been taught a faulty interpretation of Romans.
Is salvation available to all who call on the name of Jesus?
John 3:17
For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
That the world might be saved, it states Glow, not some exclusive chosen minority.
Romans 10:12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
NO DISTINCTION between Jew and Gentile, the Lord is Lord of all creation! It is God's will that all are saved Glow, the predestination
is in and through Jesus Christ. God's will is that you believe in Jesus, be the noble pottery! It is not God's wish that any perish.
Please read the following quote as it contains the precise definition of this "will of God".
John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life,
and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.
This promise through Issac is justification by faith, Paul is not talking about election of the noble elite in Romans.
Some have failed to correctly read the letter to the Romans. God is loving and kind, Grace is the foundation of all salvation.
Believe in Jesus, God is love, and He loves you deeply. In fact God loves all without any favortism at all. God is not partial to
one person over another, they have all been created by God and are equal. The incredible Gospel is for all mankind. God created
His own images that they be reconciled through His Son by faith. Not one single image is not deeply loved Glow. The Gospel is for everyone.
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DHC
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Hello farout.
On reading your reply, I was wondering whether you may wish to support your statements.
That is with some applicable quotations from the scripture. To keep it simple for the sake of
both of us. How about a quotation regarding human freewill, as I am not aware of this philosophical
term.
Dear DHC, I do not think my theology is stumbling.. but yours is contradicting itself. My theology is soundly anchored in the sovereignty of God and from this foundation all of Paul's statements make sense. This passage alone which you quote shows that God has favor on one person over the other before they are even born or done anything good or bad or even before they have "had enough faith", and so it unravels the entire argument of your post. It only takes one example of scripture to show that God chooses one person over another, to prove my point completely. And the example of Jacob and Esau does this quite nicely, who were not only metaphors as you are portraying them, but real living people.
Paul is quite clear that God is God, and does as He pleases. Paul knew God's election first hand - God transformed this hardened Christian-persecuting Jew into a believer in an instant. Why? Because Paul was chosen:
Acts 9:15 "But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel."
God did not choose Paul based on any merit of his own.. not because he believed in the gospel that he heard,not because he did any good works (he was a persecutor and murderer).
If Paul was not God's chosen instrument, Paul would have likely lived and died his entire life as a Christian-persecuting Jew, probably as many of his Pharisee peers did. Now that's something to think about.
Now read carefully DHC below, does it say it depends on human desire or effort? No it depends solely on God's mercy:
Rom 9:17 "It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy."
We may desire the whole world to be saved, but unless God has mercy, it is not going to happen.
A key problem in Christianity today is that salvation has become a "promise to all" who meet certain requirements. The attitude is to preach the gospel anywhere and everywhere and expect that all who respond have been saved. But this approach neglects the person of the living Lord. Instead, the bible teaches that God grants salvation to whom He wills. Even in the book of Acts we see God forbade the gospel to be preached in Asia:
Acts 16:6 And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia.
God is a person and as a person He has the full right to choose whom He has mercy upon, and whom He doesn't, not us. So instead of presuming salvation, or putting our trust and confidence in our own abilities, desires or faith, we need to seek the Lord's face that He will have mercy.
To know that we have been chosen for salvation does not result in pride, but a deep sense of humility and thankfulness to God, knowing that we are saved of no merit of our own. It is the ones who think their salvation is due to any merit of their own self, their faith, their faithfulness, their obedience, these are the ones who have the pride issue. This comes out of a degree of self-righteousness - the thinking that we have any kind of goodness or merit to deserve God's salvation, rather than submitting to Christ's righteousness, and denying our self.
We need to keep in mind that God is not unfair, nor unjust, nor unkind. The reason God chooses some for salvation and others for destruction is not because God is unfair, unjust or unkind, but because God is all-knowing outside of space and time, and that He has a purpose and intent. We can learn a lesson from the story of the workers in Matt 20:9- that God's idea of fairness and equality is not the same as ours.
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DHC
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Hello James.
Read your reply and agree that Paul is one very interesting and unique individual.
So unique that Paul was not even seeking Christ! Paul did not hear the Gospel and respond.
Paul was given the Gospel to preach to the Gentiles by revelation. There is no recorded conversion
process, no struggle with the faith. In fact, Paul was not even a disciple of other Christians. Paul did not
wrestle in his early years of faith, Paul hits the ground running, turbo on and with only one purpose in life.
Paul was set apart at birth for his mission, unmarried, assigned by God, a special person. Paul knew this
and commented on this through his letters. Highly unusual and special, a select individual with no parallel.
Now back to the letter to the Romans, James. Your quote from the letter to the Romans must be considered
in the context of the relevant chapter. As we can lift any verses out of the scripture and create a theology from these verses.
This has been performed countless times before and is still taking place today. Theology has its birth in the over
emphasis on selected passages from the scripture. More often than not the background context is ignored, thus error arises.
Let us examine an earlier line in this chapter of Romans to establish context.
Romans 9
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren (Israel),...
Paul is discussing physical Israel in the opening paragraph James. How could the chosen, destined people of God
cause the patriot Paul so much sorrow? God chose Israel and no other nation for the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Paul knows and we know that what God ordains will take place. God's will and power is absolute! There should be
no objection so far I hope James. God has predestined Israel, fact. Israel will succeed have no doubt.
Paul must answer this powerful question that had been posted many times prior. How could Israel itself, God's very
own children reject the Gospel? Israel predestined for supreme significance in all matters relating to God Himself, not succeed?
Is this possible or conceivable, it is not possible that Israel could miss the mark!
This is the setting, the context, the stage on which your quote now has its scriptural support. Salvation does not depend on works,
effort or man's will, human effort is void. Salvation is only realized through faith in Jesus Christ, as Paul states below.
Romans 9
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
The Gentiles never pursued righteousness James. We Gentiles did not even know who God was.
Yet the Gentiles through no effort or will of their own had achieved righteousness! A stunning revelation
that Paul expounded upon. Salvation does not arise from human effort, is never realized from the internal will of man.
Israel chased after its own righteousness through the legal process by law. Israel strained at the bridle of its own
understanding of righteousness. Israel failed to achieve righteousness, Paul declares this revelation from God.
At last we may now look at your quotation in its context and understand the verse.
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Yes James, it is true that justification is by faith and not by works of the law. God has had mercy on all of mankind
though the Gospel of Jesus Christ. By faith and not by human will, or effort, and not by the law by any means!
God has hardened Israel, James, and He has shown mercy on who? The Gentiles. Context.
Romans 11:25
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation
that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
We rejoice in Jesus Christ that God has had mercy on the Gentiles. We also are well aware that Israel
has been hardened. By faith and not by human effort.
Dear DHC, I enjoyed reading your post and did not see a problem with it.
I fail to see how the context of Paul's writings regarding Israelite and Gentile takes away from my viewpoint? Rather it only affirms it. I say this because Israel and Gentiles are referring to whole groups of individuals.
In order to support the view of God's election and calling to salvation, I could use the example of Jacob and Esau as individuals as I have done already, or I could use the example of whole groups of individuals (Israel and Gentile) that God has purposefully hardened or shown mercy to.
You said:
"The chosen are those who believe in Jesus, not by birth, human will, or works of the law."
The reverse is also true - those who believe in Jesus are the chosen. This was the experience of Paul, Jacob, and many others. It only takes one or two examples of God choosing to save a person in this way, to support my doctrine. Only if the bible gave no examples of God choosing individual before birth to be saved, would my doctrine fall short.
Similar to the way God has hardened Israel but shown mercy to Gentiles, God has selected which individuals He wants to save by actively prohibiting or enabling the gospel to spread into certain continents and nations. He prohibited the apostles spreading the Word into asia, and nation by nation He has allowed and directed the gospel to spread to the places where He wants it to go. And it was Christ who went to the 12 disciples and said "follow me", they did not follow Him first or say "pick me, pick me".
The apostles knew that God had a will and plan in His salvation, and for this reason they went where He told them to go, without a fuss. They did not complain "but Lord, you desire all men to be saved, why can't we go into asia? you are so unfair". Their motivation and their living was God's will.
Since we are on the matter of context perhaps we should examine the context of this verse that is frequently quoted:
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
The loose interpretation is "God wants everyone to be saved". But the context is to "you", the believers, "perish" as in God's temporal judgement/punishment on Earth, as in the ones who lied to the Holy Spirit, and "come to repentance" - not repentance for eternal salvation, but repentance from sins that bring God's temporal judgement.
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DHC
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Hello James.
Thank you James for your civilized reply. You should not have a problem with what I write. As it is simply
the scripture in the given context.
Yes James, there are multiple ways to read the relevant verses regarding election. But there is and only is one
correct interpretation in the end.
To do you a favor James, I will discuss Jacob and Esau. Two very interesting and beloved children of Issac and Rebekah.
Both loved dearly by their parents, Issac loved Esau very much, and Rebekah loved Issac. This we have been told in the Genesis account.
Before these two boys were born they struggled together in the womb of their mother Rebekah. She was disturbed by
the struggle taking place within her and asked the Lord about this. Please note the reply of the Lord to Rebekah, as God
pronounces his edict.
Genesis 25
23 The Lord said to her, Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body;
And one people shall be stronger than the other; And the older shall serve the younger.
God has stated the purpose of His election, not an individual election as such. But two nations, one chosen nation Israel
and the other nation (Edom), not chosen. One nation will be loved and shown favor by God, the other will be rejected by God.
Already we see the subtle will of God according to His good pleasure. God loves both Jacob and Esau, but God's purpose will stand.
Jacob will be given a green light and Esau the red light. National election not to salvation, but to serve the intent and purpose of God's will.
Two nations, Israel and effectively those nations not loved by God the Gentile nations. Israel as a nation has been chosen by God for His purpose,
and the Gentile nations have been rejected. Alas this interpretation is superficial, for we know from later revelation that God has a deeper purpose.
God is not discussing individual election, never does the scripture say that Issac is saved and Esau damned. Nor is national election the final
purpose in this will of God. Never is a member of the nation of Israel given precedence over any member of a Gentile nation.
Genesis 26
3 ...and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham.
4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your
descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;
Here is the dramatic purpose of God's will, and by your descendants all the nations will be blessed! Finally we see
the prophetic promise of Jesus Christ in the background, all nations of the earth will be blessed! God is not teaching
individual election at all. Far from this, God is teaching His purpose in the choice of certain individuals for specific purposes.
James, to administer a theology on the basis of a superficial rendering of Genesis. Is by any measure not supportable and rather primitive.
To advertize that the beloved children of Issac and Rebekah is how God elects to salvation is remiss. God states that He is electing on a national scale.
God's purpose and will is simply the revelation of Jesus Christ. Only in Jesus will all nations be blessed!
Hello DHC, you seem to interpret Jacob and Esau and the nations as theological concepts unrelated to eternal salvation.
What you seem not to realize is that God's purpose and will is entirely related to the matter of salvation. I would like to point out that there is no need to exclude the matter of eternal salvation from these passages, and there is nothing in these passages which denies God's election in salvation.
It is easy to show that the matter of Jacob and Esau is related to their salvation:
Firstly, Jacob and Esau were individuals, and the nations are groups of individuals. God chose Jacob and not Esau.
Secondly, the blessings and promise of Abraham did not come to Esau and the Edomites, because they were not chosen.
Thirdly, the blessing and promise of Abraham includes salvation: justification and salvation from sins, and eternal inheritance of the promised land.
Therefore, Jacob was chosen for the blessing and promise of Abraham which includes salvation, and Esau was not.
Whilst it may be true that in strict context, God is not teaching individual election.. in no way do these passages deny it.
The scripture states Esau was godless, DHC:
Heb 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.
And there is no need for me to quote the passages which describe the eternal fate of the godless.
And please note Rom 9 verse 22 "vessels of wrath, prepared for destruction".
Not, "vessels of wrath, prepared for salvation".
There are also those that say Judas Iscariot was saved because he accomplished God's will in betraying Jesus. In this way they improperly separate the matter of doing God's will and eternal salvation.
Again, you seem to not understand that being chosen for God's purpose is related to salvation. As I stated previously, Paul was saved because he was chosen as an instrument. And this one example of Paul alone completely proves the doctrine of God's election and calling unto salvation. There is no such thing as a person who accomplishes God's will in the negative sense, and then receive salvation (as in the example of Judas Iscariot), neither is there such thing as a person who accomplishes God's will in the positive sense and be denied salvation (as in the example of Paul).
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DHC
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Hello James, you did agree with some of the points I made, for that I am grateful.
You said;
"Whilst it may be true that in strict context, God is not teaching individual election.. in no way do these passages deny it."
This is one of the main problems with the interpretation of Calvinism. The verses in Genesis do not speak of salvation election specifically,
it is more likely corporate election for God's purpose. Unless stated otherwise.
"You seem to interpret Jacob and Esau and the nations as theological concepts unrelated to eternal salvation."
Yes James, that is one way to interpret the passages. Paul uses the same allegorical approach in Galatians. Here I will quote the verses and you can see the way that
Paul reads the symbols in Genesis. By the way James, I am very aware of T.U.L.I.P, I do understand your approach to interpretation. Familiar with Calvinism and black stocking
Calvinism too. I do separate a corporate election for God' purposes (Abraham) and a salvation election as in election through Christ.
Here is the way Paul reads Genesis.
Galatians 4
24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
There you have Paul reading the Genesis passages and identifying the symbols. I find it interesting that Paul uses this approach and method of interpretation.
I would like to ask a question of you James, how do you interpret the following.
Matthew 11
11 Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist!
Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John.
14 And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come. 15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Given that John may very well have been predestined to salvation. Why is John then the least in the kingdom of heaven?
Also James, given Paul's rather unusual conversion on the road to Damascus. Why does Paul utter the following verses
given Paul knows exactly why he was chosen by God. Paul is the proof of Calvinism after all.
Phillipians 3
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that
for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
Not that I have already obtained it? Paul needs to read Calvin's institutes James. I find it strange that Paul of all people
should make such a statement? Either Paul is elect or he is not elect. If anyone should know election it would be Paul!
Paul want's to attain to the resurrection of the dead? Paul wrote the letter to the Romans, Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1,
surely Paul was a Calvinist?
On another point James, Esau was Godless but Jacob was no saint either.
Jacob stole his brother's inheritance and deceived his own father Issac.
Let us not split hairs about these two individuals.
Both could be used as examples of poor behavior!
DHc, the matter of individual salvation is part of the matter of corporate election for God's purpose. God's corporate election is for salvation, so how can you try to separate them? To give an example, God chose the Jews according to His purpose, and salvation is from the Jews (John 4:22). There is only individual salvation within those corporate groups that God has chosen for His purpose. Therefore if God has elected a group of people for His purpose, salvation is to be found only in this group of people. If you wanted to be saved in the old testament, then become a Jew. If you want to be saved today, then become a member of Christ's body, the church. Can you belong to Christ but not be in His church? No, and neither can you be in His church and not belong to Christ.
The apostle Paul was an individual who was saved because he was foreknown and predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. Not only that, he was saved because he was called and chosen according to God's purpose. I hope you can see that the matters of God's purpose and salvation are not different things, because salvation is God's purpose.
I believe Christ did not dwell in John the Baptist so in this sense he was least. Why this example on this topic? it doesn't indicate that John was not saved.
This is funny!, you are trying to prove that Paul believed in salvation by works and was unsure of his salvation, to prove that he was not a Calvinist. Am I right?
Even though he wrote that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works, lest any should boast.
I could answer this directly, but I will answer with a question for you. If God will raise everyone from the dead (John 5:28-29), why is it something Paul has to attain to?
John 5:28-29
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
DHC this is further proof of God's election, despite Jacob's shortcomings... Jacob was chosen and had the blessing and favor of God from birth. Esau did not. Both may have been equally evil, and in fact.. every person is equally evil in God's sight, our righteousness is as filthy rags... but one had God's mercy and the other did not. We can call God unfair in two ways.. we can say He is unfair because He prevents some from being saved whom we think should be saved, and on the flipside because He saves those whom we think don't deserve to be saved.
Now we could say God is unfair on the individual level, or on the corporate level, by saying God is unfair to harden the Jews until the fullness of the Gentiles. And when God hardens Jews, He is hardening a whole group of individuals, DHC, not a theological concept called "Jew".
Either way, at the end of the day we can only say what Paul did; who are we to judge God?, who are we to give Him counsel or advice? God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.
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