Calvinism

[Bambi]

God shows mercy to all who would come- that is Jesus invitation ; He knows who will yield to His drawing and those He predestines according to foreknowledge.- It is Basic Bible reading.

Roms 9:13-22 Would disagree with you about mercy. Foreknowledge? According to 1 Peter 1:19-20 Christ was foreordained does that mean that God knew that Christ would choose to go to the cross so then God decided based on that foreknowledge to allow Christ to be the Messiah? I don't believe so. There are so many verses taken out of context concerning this issue, we both need to be careful how we fit the puzzle together.

 

[Boanerges]

This is not a matter of interpretation but straight up bible.

A re-posting of the facts:

God chooses based on our choice:
Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
This is a straight-forward example of God's attitude, plans, and actions toward someone being based on their choice.
He does predestinate- according to foreknowledge:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


From the Vine's Expositiry Dictionary of the New Testament (red emphasis mine):
Foreknow, Foreknowledge

A. Verb.
proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know"), is used (a) of divine knowledge, concerning (1) Christ, 1Pe_1:20, RV, "foreknown" (KJV, "foreordained"); (2) Israel as God's earthly people, Rom_11:2; (3) believers, Rom_8:29; "the foreknowledge" of God is the basis of His foreordaining counsels; (b) of human knowledge, (1) of persons, Act_26:5; (2) of facts, 2Pe_3:17.

 

[Bambi]

This is not a matter of interpretation but straight up bible.

A re-posting of the facts:

God chooses based on our choice:
Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
This is a straight-forward example of God's attitude, plans, and actions toward someone being based on their choice.
He does predestinate- according to foreknowledge:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


From the Vine's Expositiry Dictionary of the New Testament (red emphasis mine):
Foreknow, Foreknowledge

A. Verb.
proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know"), is used (a) of divine knowledge, concerning (1) Christ, 1Pe_1:20, RV, "foreknown" (KJV, "foreordained"); (2) Israel as God's earthly people, Rom_11:2; (3) believers, Rom_8:29; "the foreknowledge" of God is the basis of His foreordaining counsels; (b) of human knowledge, (1) of persons, Act_26:5; (2) of facts, 2Pe_3:17.

And how would we choose God when the Bible, straight up says, we would not choose God. Roms 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

There would be no one and I mean absolutely no one who would choose God. 1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us. God chooses us first then we choose him.

 

[Boanerges]

The fact that they had to choose is inescapable in the verse.
Here is how man can come:
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
By His sacrifice the price was paid for all, by His Spirit He draws those He foreknows will come:
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
We are called according to His foreknowledge of our hearts choice.
This is the grace of God revealed.

 

[Bambi]

The fact that they had to choose is inescapable in the verse.
Here is how man can come:
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
By His sacrifice the price was paid for all, by His Spirit He draws those He foreknows will come:
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
We are called according to His foreknowledge of our hearts choice.
This is the grace of God revealed.

John 12:32, agrees with me, I(Jesus) will be lifted up; I(Jesus) will draw all men unto me. It's still God choosing us first then we choosing him.

 

[Boanerges]

Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
Does this Bible verse say they choose then He decided- or does it say something different? He gives all a measure of faith- He gives all the ability to believe- He knows the hearts of the ones who will come and draws them accordingly.
You can dance around this if you choose but this verse shows Calvinism to be \just another failed attempt at theology. This verse proves man's ability to reject God or to choose Him :Let God's Word be true...

Also Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me: I have never argued that He does not draw - But the Word says He will draw all, only those who will heed will come.

 

[Puddleglum]

The Bible doesn't have to say "totally". The goodness you see in the world is by the sovereign grace of God. If God left us to ourselves then the world would be as wicked as you describe. Remember the wickedness of Joseph's brothers. They sold him into slavery. They even wanted to kill him. But in the end when Joseph was restored to his brothers he said, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. When Moses was facing Pharaoh, God said that He would harden Pharaoh's heart. When God said that, it wasn't God made Pharaoh's heart hard, it was God taking away his restraining hand and letting Pharaoh have his own corrupt sinful way. Israel was punished by God through other nations, but God then punished those nations for their evil against Israel. The same concept, he took away his restraining hand and let those nations have their way with Israel but then punished them for their wickedness. Prov 16:4.

God punish all for sin, end of story.
Israel is the people of God ,that means they do serve in him. it became a tribe called israel but it fell only because of sin.
True Israel never faills never ! and it never has and never will.
People bound to sin are never Gods people never.
God calls all to him however. but one must be in tune with the Spirit or one has nothing.
God does not suport evil idiots due to race or such nonsense.
One has to walk with God in the Spirit. it is not a birthright that you won regardless. like Oow i am of the tribe so i am where it's at ? and if this was true, why would Jesus of come. like as if all you lot of jews are one and Jesus is just only one of ya.
So Hitler killed all them people and it makes it all right, some religious nut could say. the will of God ! or we could go into WW3 eager to bring about the rapture for your self. go on go kill your saved ? now would Jesus suport one in that.

 

[Bambi]

Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
Does this Bible verse say they choose then He decided- or does it say something different? He gives all a measure of faith- He gives all the ability to believe- He knows the hearts of the ones who will come and draws them accordingly.
You can dance around this if you choose but this verse shows Calvinism to be \just another failed attempt at theology. This verse proves man's ability to reject God or to choose Him :Let God's Word be true...

Also Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me: I have never argued that He does not draw - But the Word says He will draw all, only those who will heed will come.

You know you are alot like I was before I believe in the doctrines of Sovereign grace(Calvinism). I would use 2 Peter 3:9 and no one could change my mind until one day the Lord used my husband. I didn't believe right away but eventually the Lord would show me things in scripture that eventually led me to believe in Calvinism.

The passage you gave in Isaiah isn't about an individual's obedience it's about the nation of Israel. And Israel was chosen out of all the nations at that time to be the people of God. So once again God chooses first then man.

 

[DHC]

In reference to Romans 8:29-30.

I have noticed that these two verses in Romans chapter eight has been quoted in a number of posts.
Also, I have noticed that these specific verses receive an inordinate amount of attention in theological circles.
If one reads these two verses superficially without any context. There will be a tendency towards a rather dubious
election of an elite chosen people from eternity.

It is a rare occurrence to see these verses quoted and explained within the context of the surrounding chapters in Romans.
I sometimes wonder whether anyone is serious about understanding Paul's letter to the Romans. If you dismiss the context you will certainly
fail to understand what the verses actually state. Here are the two verses.

Romans 8:29-30
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Looking at the first phrase 'for those He foreknew'. This phrase occurs again in Romans 11, which I will produce below.

Romans 11
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

There is only one way to read this phrase in the context of chapter 11. God has not rejected Israel whom God had formerly known, i.e., the old covenant.
Context has delivered the meaning of this curious phrase in chapter 11. Will the usage of the phrase 'for those He foreknew' in chapter eleven differ from
the usage in chapter eight? Very unlikely since the context of Romans supports this usage.

There can be no doubt that Paul uses this same phrase in chapter 8. That the meaning of the phrase has not altered from the usage in chapter 11.
Paul is definitely not stating that 'foreknew' means to know in advance. It means to have previously known, to have formerly known. To be precise the
word 'foreknew' does mean to formerly have known, look up the Koine Greek. Paul is declaring that the Hebrews whom God had former relations with,
are also predestined to meet Christ.

'For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become...'

Paul has been discussing the Hebrews since Romans chapter two. Paul lays his cards on the table in chapters 9,10 and 11. The Hebrews have not been
left out of God's plan. Do not be arrogant towards the Jews although they have resisted the Gospel intensely. You Gentiles, vessels for common use, wild olives,
have been grafted in among the Hebrews.

God has elected Israel and has also predestined them to know Christ. They have not
been excluded from God's plan. This is what Paul's letter to the Romans is all about.
Paul is explaining the Hebrew collision with the Christ and the resulting aftermath.

Romans chapter eight is not a discourse on the predestined elect. But a discourse on the election of the Hebrews
into a relationship with Christ. Now I will paraphrase Romans 8:29-30, so that you may see what Paul is really saying.

Romans 8:29-30
29 For the Hebrews whom He formerly knew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among both Hebrew and Gentile!
30 and the Hebrews whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Read the letter to the Romans by yourself many times. Look for the subject that Paul is discussing in each chapter. Pay particular attention to chapters 9,10, & 11.
I do think that the conclusion above is unavoidable.

 

[Boanerges]

You know you are alot like I was before I believe in the doctrines of Sovereign grace(Calvinism). I would use 2 Peter 3:9 and no one could change my mind until one day the Lord used my husband. I didn't believe right away but eventually the Lord would show me things in scripture that eventually led me to believe in Calvinism.

The passage you gave in Isaiah isn't about an individual's obedience it's about the nation of Israel. And Israel was chosen out of all the nations at that time to be the people of God. So once again God chooses first then man.

Honestly- that is a side step based on your view designed to suit your opinion-
Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

God decided based on thier reactions- you can say it is because it is a nation (which is made of individual people) and try to ignore this verse or you can take an honest look and understand that God deals with us according to what He gave us in His Word.
To say He deals with an individual not based on choice but a nation of people based on choice seems like confusion based on someone's doctrinal view.Selah.

An honest look would result in one of two choices:

change of opinion
Get the scissors and remove that verse.

 

[Bambi]

Honestly- that is a side step based on your view designed to suit your opinion-
Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

To say He deals with an individual not based on choice but a nation of people based on choice seems like confusion based on someone's doctrinal view.Selah.

Both the nation of Israel and an elect individual were both chosen first by God then they choose to serve God. In the nation of Israel's case, the nation rejected God, but individuals within that nation accepted him. A nation does not get to go to heaven, individuals do. The passage above is dealing with the nation not individuals. Remember there were individuals like, Daniel who chose to serve God and God blessed them. But he still had to suffer along with the nation and was sent into captivity.

I didn't mean to side step. I believe that you and I and others are at an impasse. You and I will believe what we believe until God reveals to one of us the truth. There really is no more reason to discuss this anymore.

 

[Boanerges]

I didn't mean to side step. I believe that you and I and others are at an impasse. You and I will believe what we believe until God reveals to one of us the truth. There really is no more reason to discuss this anymore.

I could not agree more.
I love you anyway in Jesus Name- many blessings , your brother Larry.

 

[s.i.e.]

Calvin was a lawyer who later became a Pastor in Geneva, Switzerland

Huh. Didn't know he started as a lawyer. I guess he figured he may as well bring his legal dogma into the real of Christianity, and not contain it merely to the courtroom!

I generally try to avoid taking any "isms" too seriously, or even waste too many brain cells trying to sort out the thinking behind them. As for Mr. Calvin, I've broken that rule that given it too much thought over the years...which is just one way I've wasted a little too much time in my life.


Next time you meet a hard-core Calvinist...ask them if they look both ways when they cross a road. Their answer to you will prove (to you...but not to them. They'll stay in denial about the matter) that they really aren't Calvinistic.

Choice. It matters.

 

[Boanerges]

Next time you meet a hard-core Calvinist...ask them if they look both ways when they cross a road. Their answer to you will prove (to you...but not to them. They'll stay in denial about the matter) that they really aren't Calvinistic.

Choice. It matters.

LOL!

 

[james1523]

That my friend is complete conjecture based only on your opinion. If He created us to have choice (and He did) and gave us that ability to choose(and He did) that in no way limits His power or stops any of His plans.

Choice is only choice. Our choice is quite limited. If you don't have any eggs in the fridge you can't choose to have eggs for breakfast now can you? I can choose what I want for breakfast, but it depends upon what is in my refrigerator which depends upon where I live and how much money I have, which depends upon if I have a job or not. Well where I live and my income is from God as He provides my needs so really my choice doesn't cause any of these things to exist. We don't choose when we are born, where we live, when and where and how we die. We really don't choose why, how and where we are saved. God moves first towards us and we respond, it is always like that and not us moving first and God responding. God is the one holding the fabric of all creation together: Col 1:17 "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.". Our choices are made within this framework. God doesn't just *know* what we will choose, as an observer standing from afar, God's knowledge is also accompanied by His power, and He is actively involved in all of His creation.

 

[james1523]

My brethren the truth is not found in Calvinism or any ism it is found in Jesus Christ, only He is the truth. If we try to learn the doctrine of Calvinism without having the experience and revelation of Christ for ourselves we will be confused and disappointed. Our speaking will not match our living and experience. Calvinism is a high doctrine from God's point of view, Calvin himself knew God intimately and had a personal relationship with Him and this caused him to realize that God is involved in all the affairs of His creation. He in no way was putting forward the idea that it is a one-way relationship, but emphasized the greater aspects. We often look at things from man's point of view, so Calvinism can be hard to understand. So we need to spend more time in prayer for God to bring us up to His level and show us how He sees things. If we realize our choices fit within the greater framework of God's provision and sovereignty, we may experience more joy and peace and comfort in our life. Yes I did all these great things in my life, made the right choices, etc etc, but was it really me? Was God the one behind all these things, preparing the way, giving me the ability to make those choices, making it all work out when the choices were made, opening (and closing) all the doors in my life, for salvation and for everything? Do you have the sense that God's hand is on your life? Do you experience His sovereign care and protection each day in every situation? Do you feel as if God is in control, or are you struggling to maintain your Christian faith and your life by your reasoning right from wrong, and your human effort? Do you turn to Him at all times in good times and bad? Have we surrendered our lives completely? We need to deny our self, take up our cross and follow Him. No more self effort, or striving to understand, be happy where the Lord has put you and what He has for you to do, find yourself enjoying His presence above all and anything else, don't worry if others don't believe the same as you do, we all have received a different amount of light, but it does not make us more right or wrong than each other, we all drink of the same Spirit.

 

[Boanerges]

Choice is only choice. Our choice is quite limited. If you don't have any eggs in the fridge you can't choose to have eggs for breakfast now can you? I can choose what I want for breakfast, but it depends upon what is in my refrigerator which depends upon where I live and how much money I have, which depends upon if I have a job or not. Well where I live and my income is from God as He provides my needs so really my choice doesn't cause any of these things to exist. We don't choose when we are born, where we live, when and where and how we die. We really don't choose why, how and where we are saved. God moves first towards us and we respond, it is always like that and not us moving first and God responding. God is the one holding the fabric of all creation together: Col 1:17 "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.". Our choices are made within this framework. God doesn't just *know* what we will choose, as an observer standing from afar, God's knowledge is also accompanied by His power, and He is actively involved in all of His creation.

I can find no scripture to back up your assertion of limited choice: Choose God choose life; choose the world choose death. That is the general selection...
God created man to choose and he has been doing so from the garden on:

Deu 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

If God bases His actions towards as (as the above scripture indicates) based on our choice then He weighs hearts (according to foreknowledge1Pe_1:2 ,Rom_8:29 ) then He is a God who judges a man according to His heart (1Sa 16:7).


Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
We can choose Love- Love called, these people rejected Him, they found condemnation because of it.

 

[Boanerges]

My brethren the truth is not found in Calvinism or any ism it is found in Jesus Christ, only He is the truth. If we try to learn the doctrine of Calvinism without having the experience and revelation of Christ for ourselves we will be confused and disappointed. Our speaking will not match our living and experience. Calvinism is a high doctrine from God's point of view, Calvin himself knew God intimately and had a personal relationship with Him and this caused him to realize that God is involved in all the affairs of His creation. He in no way was putting forward the idea that it is a one-way relationship, but emphasized the greater aspects. We often look at things from man's point of view, so Calvinism can be hard to understand. So we need to spend more time in prayer for God to bring us up to His level and show us how He sees things. If we realize our choices fit within the greater framework of God's provision and sovereignty, we may experience more joy and peace and comfort in our life. Yes I did all these great things in my life, made the right choices, etc etc, but was it really me? Was God the one behind all these things, preparing the way, giving me the ability to make those choices, making it all work out when the choices were made, opening (and closing) all the doors in my life, for salvation and for everything? Do you have the sense that God's hand is on your life? Do you experience His sovereign care and protection each day in every situation? Do you feel as if God is in control, or are you struggling to maintain your Christian faith and your life by your reasoning right from wrong, and your human effort? Do you turn to Him at all times in good times and bad? Have we surrendered our lives completely? We need to deny our self, take up our cross and follow Him. No more self effort, or striving to understand, be happy where the Lord has put you and what He has for you to do, find yourself enjoying His presence above all and anything else, don't worry if others don't believe the same as you do, we all have received a different amount of light, but it does not make us more right or wrong than each other, we all drink of the same Spirit.

Amen x 10.

 

[james1523]

I can find no scripture to back up your assertion of limited choice: Choose God choose life; choose the world choose death. That is the general selection...
God created man to choose and he has been doing so from the garden on:

There may be no scripture to back up my assertion of limited choice, however my view is backed by life experience and a bit of common sense. As revealed in Deu 30:19, God must set the options before us, before we can make the choices. We cannot choose something that we have not been given or do not believe in. We cannot choose God unless we first believe that God exists. This depends upon God revealing Himself to us either directly or indirectly. He may reveal Himself to someone in a general way through gospel preaching. But I also know of people who are saved because they have had a specific encounter with God. I remember one woman in a village. No bible, no preachers, and she had a dream of a man in white, who said he was Jesus. Why did God reveal Himself to her and not to anyone else in the village? She was not more special than anyone else. This verse comes to mind: John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you....".

[/COLOR]If God bases His actions towards as (as the above scripture indicates) based on our choice then He weighs hearts (according to foreknowledge1Pe_1:2 ,Rom_8:29 ) then He is a God who judges a man according to His heart (1 Sa 16:7).

True, and the heart of man is something which God forms and guides. Your choices depend upon your heart which God has created and fashioned.
Ps 33:15 "he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do."
Prov 21:1 "In the LORD's hand the king's heart is a stream of water that he channels toward all who please him."
Zech 12:1 "The LORD, ... who forms the human spirit within a person..."

God hardens and softens hearts as He desires. So it depends upon God's mercy (Romans 9).

Of course you are correct that God knows (or fore-knows) the human heart of every person, but His foreknowledge is because He is the One who will fashion it. Nothing comes as a surprise to God - not just because He knows the future, but also because He determines the future.

Your natural disposition, your genetics, the environment in which you were born and grow up, your life experiences, your gifts and talents, these all come from God. These things influence your choices.

Just look at how easily God changed the language centers in each individual's brain at Babel, which was done without human consent, without human willingness and cooperation: Gen 11:6-7 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."

See how easily God made the king of Babylon become an animal after he failed to acknowledge God's sovereignty:

Daniel 4:32 "You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like the ox. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes.""

See Nebuchadnezzar's revelation when his sanity was restored:
Daniel 4:35 "All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?""

God is Sovereign, He does as He pleases. We are nothing. He forms and fashions every heart. Our choices are because of the heart which He has made. He knows the heart of every man. God responds to our choices but our choices are really a response to Him from our heart which He has fashioned. Things start and end with God, and He is actively involved in His creation: Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

 

[Boanerges]

God hardens and softens hearts as He desires. So it depends upon God's mercy

He does indeed, according to foreknowledge of our choices.
I believe we agree on more than we disagree on about this topic. God moves the heart 's of man, some come, some do not. He "predestines" them according to their heart's choice and :
Will not miss one that would have Him.
Will not have one that will reject Him

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


From the Vine's Expositiry Dictionary of the New Testament (red emphasis mine):
Foreknow, Foreknowledge

A. Verb.
proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know"), is used (a) of divine knowledge, concerning (1) Christ, 1Pe_1:20, RV, "foreknown" (KJV, "foreordained"); (2) Israel as God's earthly people, Rom_11:2; (3) believers, Rom_8:29; "the foreknowledge" of God is the basis of His foreordaining counsels; (b) of human knowledge, (1) of persons, Act_26:5; (2) of facts, 2Pe_3:17.