Calvinism
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What does election mean?
When we Americans vote a new President into office. There is a period of time, that he is called the "President elect". This means he was elected, but he isn't President yet.
Normally elections are in November, and inaugurations are at the end of January or beginning of February.
After he is inaugurated, then he is simply "the President".
So it is with salvation. We are elected to eternal life with Christ. But it hasn't happened yet (for those of us still alive).
Presidents, get assassinated, they get impeached, they get sick and step down from office. There's nothing that says just because someone is the "elect", he will stay that way.
Boanerges
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I was the same goodness of God available to all who would come.
Boanerges
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Election comes through foreknowledge.
The facts are
The bible offers a pattern of choice on man's part; choosing to disobey Him is found occurring from the garden and on- it is s\oft done in opposition to God's directives and decrees.
There is proof in the scripture that when man chooses God reacts (Isa_66:4 , Isa_65:12 ).
There is proof that election is by foreknowledge of these choices (Rom 8:29, 1Pe 1:2, )
While these stand (and a simple reading proves they do) there can be no true doctrine of Calvinism that does not contradict the Word.
If it contradicts the Word (and it does) then what should you do with it????? All the other arguments are invalid unless these scriptures are removed.
Pro 1:28 ThenH227 shall they call uponH7121 me, but I will notH3808 answer;H6030 they shall seek me early,H7836 but they shall notH3808 findH4672 me:
Pro 1:29 For thatH8478 H3588 they hatedH8130 knowledge,H1847 and did notH3808 chooseH977 the fearH3374 of the LORD:H3068
Pro 1:30 They wouldH14 noneH3808 of my counsel:H6098 they despisedH5006 allH3605 my reproof.H8433
Pro 1:31 Therefore shall they eatH398 of the fruitH4480 H6529 of their own way,H1870 and be filledH7646 with their own devices.H4480 H4156
Pro 1:32 ForH3588 the turning awayH4878 of the simpleH6612 shall slayH2026 them, and the prosperityH7962 of foolsH3684 shall destroyH6 them.
Pro 1:33 But whoso hearkenethH8085 unto me shall dwellH7931 safely,H983 and shall be quietH7599 from fearH4480 H6343 of evil.H7451
The facts are
The bible offers a pattern of choice on man's part; choosing to disobey Him is found occurring from the garden and on- it is s\oft done in opposition to God's directives and decrees.
There is proof in the scripture that when man chooses God reacts (Isa_66:4 , Isa_65:12 ).
There is proof that election is by foreknowledge of these choices (Rom 8:29, 1Pe 1:2, )
While these stand (and a simple reading proves they do) there can be no true doctrine of Calvinism that does not contradict the Word.
If it contradicts the Word (and it does) then what should you do with it????? All the other arguments are invalid unless these scriptures are removed.
Pro 1:28 ThenH227 shall they call uponH7121 me, but I will notH3808 answer;H6030 they shall seek me early,H7836 but they shall notH3808 findH4672 me:
Pro 1:29 For thatH8478 H3588 they hatedH8130 knowledge,H1847 and did notH3808 chooseH977 the fearH3374 of the LORD:H3068
Pro 1:30 They wouldH14 noneH3808 of my counsel:H6098 they despisedH5006 allH3605 my reproof.H8433
Pro 1:31 Therefore shall they eatH398 of the fruitH4480 H6529 of their own way,H1870 and be filledH7646 with their own devices.H4480 H4156
Pro 1:32 ForH3588 the turning awayH4878 of the simpleH6612 shall slayH2026 them, and the prosperityH7962 of foolsH3684 shall destroyH6 them.
Pro 1:33 But whoso hearkenethH8085 unto me shall dwellH7931 safely,H983 and shall be quietH7599 from fearH4480 H6343 of evil.H7451
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Amen and Amen!!!
I wonder if Calvinist believe on the judgement day, standing before the throne of God, the Father will say.. sorry, you never had a chance. Into the fire you go.
I'm the one who caused you to fail, I'm the one who caused you to sin.
Jas 1:13; Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
Rev 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
Rev 3:21 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Bambi
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Some of you say that Jesus died for everyones sins. If that is the case then no one will go to hell. And we know that isn't the case. So what did Christ's death on the cross accomplish? Did he die for some sins of everyone? Then we would have to work for our salvation. So again I ask what did Christ's death on the cross accomplish?
Some of you say that Election comes because of foreknowledge. How? God knew that Joseph's brothers would do evil and Joseph would do good so he chose Joseph? And yet Judah's line is the chosen line not Joseph.
According to scripture no man would ever choose God so how does it work? God elects men who would do good because of his foreknowledge. Men are evil and would never choose good unless God gave them the grace and faith to accomplish those tasks. Roms 3:9, 10
Do men still have to choose God, yes. But he can't choose God left to his own sinful flesh because he is dead. And dead men can't move by themselves. Someone else has to give him the ability to move, and that is God's grace and mercy. Eph 2:1, 8, 9
Some of you say that Election comes because of foreknowledge. How? God knew that Joseph's brothers would do evil and Joseph would do good so he chose Joseph? And yet Judah's line is the chosen line not Joseph.
According to scripture no man would ever choose God so how does it work? God elects men who would do good because of his foreknowledge. Men are evil and would never choose good unless God gave them the grace and faith to accomplish those tasks. Roms 3:9, 10
Do men still have to choose God, yes. But he can't choose God left to his own sinful flesh because he is dead. And dead men can't move by themselves. Someone else has to give him the ability to move, and that is God's grace and mercy. Eph 2:1, 8, 9
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Sometimes God allows evil to happen. (See the first chapter of Job) But does he cause it to happen?
Also, just because God does this sometimes, does that mean that's the only way it can ever happen?
What about Ananias and Sapphira? Did God tell them to lie? Did good come out of that? What about Sodom and Gomorrah, did God cause that to happen? Did good come out of that?
Good doesn't come out of every single bad thing that happens.
This is like saying a mustang is a car. Therefore all cars must be mustangs.
Do you have any scripture that says men never chooses God?
Again, you can take one verse and build a doctrine on it...
Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
Or you can take many scriptures and say God does it many different ways.
Deut 4:29; "But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.
Prov 8:17; "I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me.
Jer 29:13; 'You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
Luke 11:9; "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Acts 17:26; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
Acts 17:27; that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
Well this view of eternal life is neglecting the inward change wrought in our hearts in the present, the effect of God's grace and impartation of His life into our being over a life time , giving life to our mortal bodies, and to our souls. Eternal life is something we have now, and something we gain in the future. In other words, we have Christ in us now, and we will be with Him in a fuller way in the future.
Bambi
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God also chose Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob before they chose him. Jesus chose the twelve and yes even one of them was chosen for evil.
If scripture has several passages that state God chooses first then man, something is contradicting when you bring other scripture that says man chooses first. In other words you have to rethink your view on the meaning of each passage. You either choose the doctrines of Sovereign Grace or you choose man's free will. You decided. I choose God's Sovereign grace.
If scripture has several passages that state God chooses first then man, something is contradicting when you bring other scripture that says man chooses first. In other words you have to rethink your view on the meaning of each passage. You either choose the doctrines of Sovereign Grace or you choose man's free will. You decided. I choose God's Sovereign grace.
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The Holy Spirit does change us, (if we let him). But even this change isn't what saves us.
Gal 4:11; I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.
1 Thes 3:5; For this reason, when I could endure it no longer, I also sent to find out about your faith, for fear that the tempter might have tempted you, and our labor would be in vain.
1 Cor 9:27; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
Also keep in mind, this isn't a "one time" fix all shot. In order for the Holy Spirit to change us, we must be constantly renewed by him.
Rom 12:2; And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
Tit 3:5; He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
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To me, God isn't sovereign because he can force it to do things. God is sovereign because he is God in spite of our choices. If God can only be God depending on what humans do, what kind of God is that?
Right but when we are born again our spirit is saved and we receive eternal life at that very moment. This eternal life has many positive effects as you just described, because we are saved, not to be saved. Hence, eternal life we receive the moment we receive Christ. Because Christ Himself is eternal life.
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I agree with you God is sovereign in spite of our choices. He doesn't depend on what men do, but he can persuade men to do things differently. Just like Jonah. Jonah didn't want to go to Nineveh but God used a whale to persuade him to go there.
God is Sovereign because of who He is not what He can do.. He is God. He can force things because He is omnipotent, has unlimited power.
I think Scripture teaches God is Sovereign in both an active direct way ("forceful"), and a more passive indirect way. I don't like the word "force" a better word is controlling. God doesn't force He controls..God controls people's lives, not just "if we let Him", but all the time, even if we don't let him. King David, King Saul and Jonah can testify to that.
2 Thess 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie
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I notice every time this happens in the Bible, it's because they rejected him first.
2 Thes 2:10; and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved.
2 Thes 2:11; For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
2 Thes 2:12; in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
Boanerges
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You are underestimating God's foreknowledge. I have posted several verses that plainly demonstrate God choosing man;s fate based on their choice- unless you remove these from the bible your theology has major issues.
About foreknowledge- God knew the 12 it is true and Judas was no surprise- in fact he was chosen because he would betray Christ. Nothing escapes God's knowledge.
Jesus was indeed the Lamb if God and His death on the cross did indeed take away the sins of the whole world:
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
The offer made- yet not all will have part in it for some do not wish to know Him.
Please re-read these two scriptures with an open heart- there is no hidden meaning but they are quite plain in what they say:
Pro 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
Pro 1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
Pro 1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
It is a difficult thing to deeply believe a doctrine and then find the Word contradicting it- yet Calvinism simply does not line up with the counsel of the whole Word.
One cannot ingore verse that contradict their doctrine but must view the one through the prism of the other thus eliminating contradiction and confusion.
Bambi
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The two verses that contain the word foreknowledge, Acts 2:23 and 1 Peter 1:2, says nothing about a man's choice. 1 Peter talks about the Elect.
The Greek word for world is "kosmos" which has multiple meaning one of which is the universe. So Christ did die for the universe, he died for the renewal of creation from what Adam did in the garden. But to say he died for every human that's not possible because if he did then everyone goes to heaven and none go to hell.
Proverbs and Isaiah passages have to do with judgment that has or will come upon them because they didn't do what they were suppose to do already. Calvinism is a hard doctrine to accept I struggled over it for years. I used 2 Peter 3:9 to counter Election, but it wasn't until some one showed me how I was taking that verse out of context. You must read verses in context not with only the surrounding passages but with the whole of scripture.
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I am always interested in the historical development of doctrine and believe this can help shed light upon which doctrine is "more correct" than the other. From my research I found that the early church including the apostles and those who wrote the scriptures did not believe in strict Calvinism or Arminianism, but their views are much much closer to Arminianism than Calvinism. In general they believed in conditional election, and the free will of man (and argued against determinism as held by the gnostics) , but also believed man's sinful nature meant they could not be saved of their own efforts except by an act of His grace. Augustine (circa 300-400 ad) is said to be the first to introduce ideas that deny the free will of man, and this is sometimes attributed to his gnostic background before his conversion to Christianity. Calvinism as a whole doctrine is rooted in *some* of the teachings of Augustine and not the 100% Holy Scriptures.
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